Animals Need Lawyers Too: Vanessa Shakib on Animal Rights, Pet Custody & Hidden Abuse

0:00When you're not swimming with your passion, when you're swimming against it, life doesn't feel good. Every single year, the federal government, specifically the NIH, is handing out$20 billion in taxpayer money, our money, to subsidize animal experimentation. We're calling this a foreign animal lab loophole. It's illegal, right? It's the opposite of what Congress said.

0:39Vanessa Shakib:Welcome back to the BILF pod where authenticity trumps authority. So I have a question for you guys today. What happens if someone hurts your dog or your cat? Or what happens if you're going through a divorce and you're trying to figure out who gets the dog or the cat? Well, believe it or not, there are lawyers that specialize in that. And today's guest, I'm really interested to find out all these answers. But today's guest is Vanessa Shaqib. She has dedicated her life's work to protecting animal rights and laws. Yes, that is a real thing. Animals have rights and laws. Welcome to the Build Pod, girl.

1:14Vanessa Shakib:Woo! I am so excited to have you. Thank you for the warm welcome, Mara. So happy to be here with you today. Okay. So, okay. So let's just get in and we're going to dig in and just figure this whole thing out. So as I was like trying to read, so I have to admit, like we were talking off a little bit, I have to admit, I was reading about you and I'm like animal lawyer. Okay. And I don't, and don't forgive me, please forgive me. But I didn't even know that that was a thing, but it's a thing. So explain like, where did this come from? Well, first of all, you are not alone. I always say animal law has a PR problem, Part of this is because it's a relatively new, still emerging multidisciplinary field.

1:59So from the beginning of time, animals have always been a part of our legal system because they're considered property. So very early legal disputes would be like, who owns this cow? You took my cow.

2:11Vanessa Shakib:Yeah. It wasn't until around the 70s, we had lawyers think, wait a minute, how can we use the law to help more animals to file cases from the animal's perspective. Right. That's how this field was born. It's super hard to explain because believe it or not, every field of law is animal law. Right. And why is that? To touch on your point, if you're an estate planner, then you need to be providing for the care of people's animals upon their death. If you are a family law lawyer, that prenup needs to consider companion animals. if you enter the marriage with them and your divorce needs to consider animals when you leave the marriage, right?

2:53So every aspect of our life touches animals and let's zoom out and get even bigger. You might wake up and eat eggs for breakfast. Maybe you hop on your car, you're sitting on leather seats, you put on an outfit made of wool, you take some medication that was tested on animals. So there's these animals that we're aware of, right? There's these animals behind the scenes that make our life possible. And the question is, how are they being treated?

3:20Vanessa Shakib:Right. And more and more lawyers are using the law to get at that. Oh, okay. Well, you gave me a very thorough explanation. So did you all, I'm assuming that you must be an animal lover, right? You have to be an animal lover. Would I be correct in assuming? I'm an animal lover. You are. And I also want to say most of the country filled with animal lovers, 60 % of people have an animal at home. They do. And there's a lot of pet lovers up there, out, not up there, out there. There are tons of pet lovers. So it is kind of refreshing to know that they do have rights, especially like, you know, we talk about, and this really just happened.

3:55Vanessa Shakib:Like my neighbor, granted my dog went in the neighbor's yard and the neighbor's dog is like five times the size of my little dog and bit her butt and like totally like started making her, I didn't do it. I didn't do anything because she went in her yard, but it's nice to know that at least they're being protected, then they do have laws. Yes, they do have laws. I'm going to make it complicated for a hot second. They have laws, but it's tough because, okay, Mara, if you have an issue, you can go to court and sue someone. Yeah. If your dog has an issue, your dog cannot initiate a lawsuit because your dog is considered your property.

4:37So you bring the lawsuit because your dog is your property. So it's more straightforward in a pet situation because a pet owner is going to go to court if they need to, if their animal's been harmed, most likely. But what happens if there is a company doing illegal testing? Who's going to bring their case to court. That's the question. And that's why I started my nonprofit law firm.

5:06Vanessa Shakib:Got you. So that's what you're an advocate about. So when you were going through law school, what were your professors thinking? Is there a specialty when you're going to law school, like specializing in that? Or how did that work? Okay. There is a specialty. There are law schools around the country offering animal law clinics. When I was in law school, I did not know that I would be an animal lawyer. I didn't see it coming. So I took a major career pivot. I had a normal legal job and I exploded my life to start advancing law for animals. I didn't see it coming. I had been this longtime animal lover.

5:47I had been practicing law for eight years and I just thought something about this doesn't do it for me. You have a lot of passion. I'm similar. I have a lot of passion. And when you're not swimming with your passion, you're swimming against it. Life doesn't feel good, right? It just doesn't feel great. And it's kind of magical. It builds, right? There's this building sense of this isn't for me, kind of slowly feel a little zombie-esque until it gets to a point where you think I need to change the game. And that's what happen. I thought my biggest passion is animals. Why aren't I helping them? And I thought, well, I'm a lawyer.

6:33That's what I'm good at. I'm a really good litigator. Why don't I litigate for animals?

6:38Vanessa Shakib:I love that. I'm jealous. I was actually on my way to becoming a lawyer. I have a master's degree and an undergraduate degree in criminal justice. Yeah. So I always thought I was going to be a prominent, but you know, not, not like this, not like the pity party about what, why I go to law school. But it's funny what you said, because, you know, yes, you can be doing what you want in life, but you have to be truly passionate about it. And although I didn't go to law school, I found something that I am truly passionate about and mine's helping people. So, I mean, I think it kind of, you know, it kind of coordinates, but, you know, it is a little controversial or, or you tell me if it's controversial, where has this ever happened to you?

7:15Vanessa Shakib:There's, you know, indigent people that need lawyers. There's children that need lawyers. Have you gotten any backlash like, come on, man, these are animals. Do they really need lawyers? Has that ever been something that is out there and a little controversial for you? Yeah. So I would say the majority of people love to hear there's animal lawyers out there. But there are those that say, what about humans? Yeah. And I totally understand humans also shouldn't suffer. the thing is there are already a lot of lawyers that help different populations of animal humans but when it comes to animals we don't have that same team of lawyers on the ready and so this is a specialty that needs to build yeah I'll also know I have friends who they do animal law and other kinds of law right it doesn't need to be all or nothing for the lawyers listening I get hit up by lawyers on the regular.

8:12I want to do animal. I want to do animal. How can I be an animal lawyer? And the truth of it is, whatever your practice is, you can pop in some animal cases and make it work. It's not an all or nothing thing.

8:25Vanessa Shakib:Yeah. I love that answer. So it's not that you're not, you're neglecting humans. It has, it's that there are cases out there, whether, you know, their animals are being tested or you have the, you know, you have the divorce case. So I think it just makes you more eclectic that you can do that and more diverse in your portfolio of what you're able to represent. So, yeah, who cares what people have to say because you're not saying – at least what I'm hearing is you're not just niching. Yes, you have a niche, but you also have the capability of representing humans as well. So you're not ruling out the humans.

8:59Yeah, and let me tell you, if you're a human, it's much easier to get a lawyer. I was just going to say, yeah. If there's an animal issue and you're shopping for a lawyer, it's the lack of animal lawyers is so heartbreaking. I get contacted daily about some awful issue with a dog or a cat or a veterinarian or something a neighbor did. I can't help everyone who contacts me.

9:23Vanessa Shakib:Yeah. But there's just not a lot of lawyers to even contact for these kinds of problems. That's nice. And you can practice in all states or are you just in one specific state or how does that work? So I'm barred in the state of California and D.C. because I love suing federal agencies. Federal agencies regulate a lot of kinds of animals, including laboratory animals, animals in circuses, puppy mills. And so there's all kinds of problems with how the federal government is regulating these millions of animals. And that's been a specialty of mine. That's amazing. So tell us what is something that would shock people about animal law that they didn't know?

10:11Well, let me tell you something that still shocks me deep into the case.

10:15Vanessa Shakib:Tell me. So every single year, the federal government, specifically the NIH, is handing out $20 billion in taxpayer money, our money, to subsidize animal experimentation. Now, a big chunk of that money, about 24%, is actually going to animal experimenters in foreign countries. Think Tunisia, Bangladesh, St. Kitts, previously China, previously Russia, right? So we are sending our taxpayer dollars to the tune of millions all over the world to subsidize animal experimentation. Wow. Point being period, most people don't know that. Okay. Let's make it weirder. Congress passed this law and it makes total sense.

11:05Like, yo, what's up? If you take this money for animal experimentation, you need an animal care committee. You need to document animal welfare and you need to report to the funder what's happening with animal welfare. Transparency, sunshine makes total sense for anyone getting their money. At the same time, NIH makes this policy and says, oh, but if you are a foreign laboratory getting this money, you don't need to do that.

11:34Vanessa Shakib:Wow. So why are foreign countries experimenting on animals on our dollar held to a lower standard than American companies on U.S. soil. So we're calling this a foreign animal lab loophole. It's illegal, right? It's the opposite of what Congress said. And so I'm suing on behalf of Taxpayer Watchdog Group, the White Coat Waste Project. And we want to make sure that wherever tax dollars are being spent, the highest standard for animals under the law is being adhered to. Wow. I mean, you're taking on – first of all, congratulations on taking on the federal government. That is huge. I love that you're unapologetic about it.

12:17Vanessa Shakib:I love how you started it. But that is absolutely insane. But, I mean, it makes sense what – you said, why outside of the country? Because that's a big loophole for them. So they can kind of get away with all this neglect and then taking our money and utilizing that. Wow. Wow. You just shocked me. I didn't even know that was a thing. That is absolutely crazy. It's crazy. it gets even crazier. I really recommend people follow my client White Coat Ways. The federal government has been experimenting on all kinds of animals, even in the U.S., including dogs and cats. And so thanks to the great work of my client, and I'm so blessed to work with trailblazers doing amazing things, the EPA has committed to a 2035 phase out of mammalian animal testing.

13:04The Navy is the first federal agency to ban dog and cat testing. The CDC just shut down its in-house primate lab. And the VA is ending dog, cat, and primate research. And so I think that's kind of the dirtiest little secret is all these animals and labs on taxpayer dollars. And I'm just so blessed to be a part of challenging that and represent an organization really on the front lines of this work.

13:33Vanessa Shakib:That's absolutely amazing that it just goes to show your passion. And I'm sure there's so many other passionate people about pets that this is absolutely incredible. I mean, I like pets. I do. I wouldn't say that I'm not over the top, but just to know that, full transparency. But again, I wouldn't want to see anybody hurt for that matter, but let alone pets that have no voice. That's awful. That's horrible. That really is. But congratulations to you for going above and beyond. And this is part of your nonprofit agency as well. Exactly. My nonprofit law firm, Advancing Law for Animals. Nice. So how do you pick and choose which cases?

14:14Vanessa Shakib:Because you said you're inundated with tons of cases coming through. So how do you differentiate what's most interesting or what's most important for you? You know, it's a great question. And I really think about impact and impact can be in a lot of ways. What is the case that will help the most animals? Love it. One way to think of it. Another case is, okay, if I file this new and novel case, will other lawyers come in and do something similar and build on this new pathway? And just, I think about that. I also think about, is this a case that would benefit? Um, Is this a case that the media would want to report on so that we can also educate the public about what's happening?

15:00So all of those things I kind of put together to really maximize not just my time, but as a nonprofit law firm, right, donor dollars, we're really going for the most impact possible.

15:13Vanessa Shakib:Love that. Are there any underrepresented animals out there? Or what would be the most underrepresented, I should say? um animals in laboratories and food production yeah so the majority of donations in philanthropy that go to animals are generally going to go to shelter issues spay and neuter shelter issues that totally makes sense because that's an issue that we all really know very well we are all very educated in that as the general public. And it's very visible. We see the dogs, we see the cats at the forefront of our minds. I think what's not at the forefront are the animals that our society is built on that we prefer not to think about how they're treated behind closed doors.

16:07And the industry actually doesn't want us to know how they're treated behind closed doors. So we can't really know even if we want to.

16:15Vanessa Shakib:Gotcha. Have you ever gotten, this is like off, but I just kind of, I kind of want to know this. Have you ever gotten attached to a case and then you end up with the animal? Like maybe like, you know what I mean? Like maybe a dog case that you're like, oh my God. And then you ended up like adopting the animal at the end. So no, but almost. Like do you have like a zoo in your backyard? No, I'm just kidding. Well, I mean, check this. I had a case against a laboratory for illegal business practices. The laboratory and the details of the settlement are confidential. But as part of that, we were able to take out of the laboratory a llama, three goats, and 16 rabbits.

16:59Are they in your house right now? They were for a bit because we had to place these animals in sanctuary. And this was, by the way, so I first started my career. I'm, you know, negotiating this settlement and I'm just happy to get the animals. So, you know, goats, the llamas, 16 rabbits, give them all of me. Well, I didn't think to ask, are the rabbits spayed and neutered? And it turns out, it turns out when you're placing rabbits, people want them spayed and neutered, especially in a sanctuary. so we did have this lovely sanctuary that would take all 16 rabbits but only once they were spayed and neutered okay so I'm like all right so it's myself and my business partner we're like okay we're gonna have these 16 rabbits until they get spayed and neutered well then we find out it takes six months they need to be I think it was six months then we find out um fixing rabbits is a specialty not every vet does this right it became this big complicated thing um so I had the rabbits for a while.

18:04Vanessa Shakib:How many bunnies did they make in between? Thankfully, we made it through. And those 16 went to a custom-made indoor-outdoor rabbitat up north living their best life. The llama and the goats went to New Life Animal Sanctuary in Southern California. And so, yeah, that was a really great case to see those animals free and happy. That's so funny. All right. I'm going to have a little fun with you, okay? So animal law edition. All right. I'm going to ask you, I'm going to test you what you think we know about animals in law. So you're just going to tell me true or false. Ready? So lawyer answers only.

18:46Vanessa Shakib:If someone kills your pet, can you sue them for emotional distress? True or false? Yeah. True. Yes. Absolutely. Factory farming practices would be illegal if they were done to dogs.

19:04100 % illegal to dogs and arguably even illegal anyway. The laws are just not enforced. So that's a really lawyer answer.

19:15Vanessa Shakib:Okay. Here we go. Breed-specific legislation, like banning pit bulls, is constitutional. You know, I've got to say I haven't dealt with the breed-specific legislation. So I can give you a good opinion on that one. Fair. Animals will have legal personhood in the U.S. within the next 20 years. From your mouth to God's ears. Maybe, right? I hope so. Maybe. I don't know. Most animal cruelty cases never result in prosecution. Is that true or false? It depends what kind of animal we're talking about. A companion animal, false. An animal in a laboratory or farm for food, true. Wow. So, okay. So when we talk about factory farming, it's one of the most widespread form of animal sufferings on the planet.

20:11Vanessa Shakib:So how do you, okay, when you get these cases, walk me through a case like this. I have a case against Foster Farms right now on behalf of the international welfare organization animal equality so this lawsuit centers around one particular hatchery that processes about three million chicks per year um animal quality hired an undercover investigator who got a job there um and recorded what was happening i won't detail it but it's a it's a horror um it's it's it's like halloween movie you right no one no one really wants to get into those details I found, but it's a not good situation. And so we were able to creatively sue them without getting into the legal leads, the legal leads, excuse me, most laws that protect animals, they're, they're criminal laws.

21:10So you need a prosecutor or the prosecutor has to be willing to get involved. So in this case, animal equality went to the prosecutor with the footage and the prosecutor, as they often do, didn't act. So now the question is, how can we in civil court, civil means private party against private party, apply this criminal law that a prosecutor won't enforce? So we have, we develop a creative workaround. California has this law that says, hey, it's called the unfair competition law. Hey, if you're a business, you can't engage and work in a manner that is unlawful unfair or fraudulent. So we're like, okay, let's put this all together.

21:55If that's the case, you violate that unfair competition law when you systemically violate state anti-cruelty laws to cut costs and up profits. So that legal theory has been viable. We are in discovery. We've retained experts on the issue of suffering, on the issue of hatchery operations, and we hope to make animal law history with this case?

22:20Vanessa Shakib:Wow. Okay. This might be a stupid question, but I have to ask. So when you're, when people are suing or whatever, when you're prosecuting case, the animals, do they, cause you know, people sue for money, right? That's usually what, so are the animal, this might sound stupid, but are you trying to, are you trying to reinforce their rights? Do you get like a stipend back to, you know, so they can continue testing in a, in a more, I guess in a more humane, that's not probably the right word, but the, what are you suing for? I guess that's my question. Great question. Okay. So here's the bottom line.

22:55Eating animals is legal. Animal experimentation is legal. So my job as a lawyer is to like hone in. Okay. But what are the illegal practices around it? Like, yes, you can do it legally if you follow certain rules. Once you step over the line, right. We're coming for you. So the question is businesses stepping over the line with illegal practices. And so what I can do as a lawyer in civil court is I can work to, I can ask for an injunction, which is a court order to change practice, right? So trying to change practices. Now you're asking about the monetary piece, certain states like California, do you have a public interest attorney's fee recovery law?