From Divorce Attorney to Divorce Coach: What Lawyers Won't Tell You

0:00Kara Francis:The most dangerous moment in a marriage, it's not the big fight, it's the silence that comes after.

0:08Kara Francis:I don't even know who I am anymore. I've completely lost myself. Stop crying, like, we gotta put up big girl pants on. How are you able to do that? Because that would be heartbreaking. From an attorney to now a coach.

0:26those are really hard marriages to end because technically nothing's wrong it's fine but you sort of just feel dead inside getting divorced and going through that process and it is really

0:36Kara Francis:such an act of self-love does the husband know this is going on or most of the times no most of the times no I think I'm in the right table but I'm in the wrong chair I think I'm supposed to be sitting over there because what they're doing resonates much more deeply with me Before we get into today's episode, let me ask you a question. How many decisions have you already made today? What to prioritize? Who to follow up with? What content to post? What problem actually needs your attention first? The reality is, most entrepreneurs, they're not running out of time. They're actually running out of mental energy.

1:07Kara Francis:This episode is sponsored by Cintra AI. And one of the reasons I've been using Cintra is because it helps eliminate some of the decision fatigue. Take Sochi, for example. Instead of spending an hour trying to figure out what to post, I can actually generate content ideas, hooks, captions, and strategies in just minutes. Then there's Scouty. When I need research, insight, or information, I don't have to spend hours digging through tabs and websites. And Cassie, well, she helps me manage customer communication and follow-ups so nothing ever falls through the cracks. What I love is that each helper has a job, just like a great team.

1:40Kara Francis:Because the goal isn't to do more, the goal is to spend more time doing the things only you can do. Lead, create, build, grow. That's what leverage looks like. If you're looking for a smarter way to operate, create, and scale, go to Cintra.ai backslash bilf. Use code bilf, B-I-L-F, for 72 % off all plans. Plus, they even offer a 14-day money-back guarantee, so there's absolutely no risk to try it at all. Again, that's Cintra.ai backslash bilf, code bilf, B-I-L-F. Now, let's get into today's episode.

2:15Kara Francis:Welcome back to the BILF pod where authenticity trumps authority. Well today's guest is, you know what I'm just going to say it, is really in the space that I know personally. You know being a woman that has been a part of a divorce I can tell you that it's not always easy. So today's guest knows what it's like on both sides of the fence. From law, from an attorney to now a coach, welcome to the show Miss Cara welcome thank you I'm so glad that you got to come on this is so exciting I know it worked out really perfectly there you know it was a line the stores were yeah the start of the store little stores might have been a line too it's meant to be like the shop so yeah so I am definitely no stranger to divorce you know fortunately in the end it worked out really well and my ex-husband happens to be like one of my best friends or I just can't get rid of him or he just took till death do us part way to the other level.

3:10Kara Francis:But how does one, I have to ask you, because when I was really under trying to understand what you did, how does one go from being an attorney, a divorce attorney to a coach? So gosh, I feel like I just took the long way to get, I was always supposed to be here. I just took the long route. So when I was a young teen, my oldest sister went through a divorce and I come from very small town Ohio where it doesn't happen very often. And so that was really my first experience with it. And just to see her really reclaim herself and completely turn her life around and choose herself was just really inspiring.

3:48So I was like, I want to help people do that. And I was like, I already decided what I'm doing for the rest of my life. I got to figure it out. So I was like, I'll be a lawyer and did everything I had to do to get there. And after working for a little while, pretty quickly saw it was not compatible with my personality. And I also wasn't having the type of deeper impact that I was hoping to have with my clients. But the silver lining was that is where I learned of divorce coaches because a lot of my clients had them. And so the more I sort of observed how they were working with the client, I started thinking, I think I'm in the right world, but I'm at the

4:24Kara Francis:right table, but I'm in the wrong chair. I think I'm supposed to be sitting over there because what they're doing resonates much more deeply with me. And so after spending a few more years as a lawyer trying to like make it work and it just wasn't. And so it just seemed like a natural segue for me. Yeah. So I was actually on my way to becoming a lawyer too. I have a master's degree and undergraduate degree in criminal justice. So I really, I was, I did not make it as far as because the economy happened and there was no money for me to go to law school, but I ended up, you know I would say exactly like you they're like in a I feel like what I do in life it didn't you know I didn't grow up wanting to do this I feel like because I do insurance I'm a senior regional sales leader so I say insurance chose me I didn't choose insurance but I'm in a space the same thing where I get to help people and help them live out their dreams and you know help them make money and show them how to do that so I feel like when you know you know right you could just kind of know that so just kind of switching gears and I'm sure it was emotional you know going through a divorce and watching women especially, and I've seen this firsthand, women are going through a divorce.

5:27Kara Francis:They have no idea what to even expect on the other end. How were you able to separate the emotion from the legal? This is what we need to do. Stop crying. We've got to put our big girl pants on. How were you able to do that? Because that was heartbreaking. I think it's helpful that I've seen divorce not only as an attorney but also personally. so I know what it's like to get bogged down in the emotions. Personally, with my divorce, I was very clear on my decision, but I had trouble executing because I struggled a lot with people-pleasing and fear of conflict and just guilt. And so I know what it's like to be in that position where you know what you want, but you're having a hard time following through and actually taking steps to get there.

6:11And so when I became a coach, it just sort of felt natural because oftentimes I feel like I'm talking to past versions of myself of I've been there and here are some of the things I learned the hard way and here's some wisdom or reframes of mindset that I can offer to you that can hopefully help you save more time and emotional anguish than I did.

6:32Kara Francis:Yeah, I always say this, like getting divorced, it was awful. I wish I did it many years earlier because it's probably the best thing I could have ever done. You know, my ex-husband and I, we coexist as like best friends we were just not compatible for marriage but um you know you totally change I don't not change but you evolve into this new woman I don't know if that happened for you but I've seen it like from other just friends I mean would you agree like you just finally take on like after you go through a divorce you're like I've arrived bitch I'm here like if I could go through this divorce and you have every because everybody in my family in my family nobody got divorced so you hear like are you sure you want to do this and then the separation whose friends are going to go where so did you feel do you feel like a lot of women they take on this new persona of like awakening yes and it's so beautiful to see and it's so amazing to see it happen on the coach side of seeing them actually choose themselves and take steps to change their lives i feel like as women especially you know there's so many different roles and identities that are sort of expected of us or thrust upon us and so we do our best to do it all and be everything for everyone and getting divorced and going through that process and is really such an act of self love and like you said here I am I'm choosing myself I'm stripping away everything that's sort of been piled on me over the years and it's very cathartic and so it's it's hard it's painful but there's also just such a catharsis with just coming clean and starting over I feel like I grew up like I went I found myself I mean I was 30 with two kids and we were broke so there was no like there was real there was nothing in the divorce thank you know thank god you're going looking now but you know this whole I think prior to getting divorced like I relied so much on my ex-husband that I don't think that I knew how to really because I went from I mean I was 23 years old when I got what the hell did I know at 23 years old so much changes so much and then by 28 I'm two I have two kids all my friends are partying and having a great time and here I am I'm working I'm a mom, I'm a wife, and I'm miserable.

8:39Kara Francis:And it's such an evolution. And I think when I got divorced, I don't even think I knew like where to go to get my car insurance. It's so funny, because when I first got my post divorce apartment, first apartment by myself, I had never lived by myself before. Yeah, because between living with my parents through high school, then college living with roommates, and then I went straight from that to law school with my former husband. And so it was the first time I ever lived by myself. And I had this huge TV stand to put together with like a million pieces. And it was on me to do it. There's no one else there to help me.

9:14And so I put on a Bravo show that I'd seen a million times and just let it run. And it took me like seven hours. It took me the whole day to do it. But when I was done, I was so proud of myself. It was your favorite TV stand in the world.

9:26Kara Francis:It was hard to let that one go. That was a hard one. Yeah, because it symbolized so much. Yeah, it does. I mean, it really shows you a divorce, the strength that you never knew that you had within. And I think people, I think there's two things to it. I think this day and age, and you can correct me, I think people do throw in the towel a lot earlier because it's a lot easier. And I think looking back, had I tried a little bit more, maybe it would have been better. But I think also for women, I don't think people realize how tough it really is for women because everything falls on them after the divorce.

10:00Kara Francis:The kids fall on them, you know, the financial responsibility. Every like you really do become the mom, the dad, the sister, the brother, the advocate, everything. You're the one that's doing it. So when people use you, are they using you while they're going through a divorce or is it post divorce? So interestingly enough, most of my clients are actually pre-divorce. they're contemplating. So they're in a place where they've done everything they're supposed to do to be happy. And they're not, they don't feel connected to their lives. They feel like something's missing. They're waiting to feel happy.

10:33And they keep checking things off the list, and they're not feeling happy. And so they come to me. And those are really hard marriages to end, because technically, nothing's wrong. It's fine. But you sort of just feel dead inside. And so women really struggle to make that decision to leave those types of relationships because they feel guilty and they're scared well what if it's worse out there and it's helpful for them to have someone to be by their side as they make that decision and more so be a mirror to them of what they're putting out there and what they say they want and reflecting back to them this is what you say you want but this is what I see you doing and this is what I see your current relationship as and I'm not biased in favor of any ultimate outcome my role is to just help them make decisions instead of just have it weighing over them all the time I love that so you're not so let's be clear

11:24Kara Francis:that you know that Kara's not saying every woman should get divorced and like yeah that's not what you're saying like you're walking I mean I think it would have been helpful had I gone and like consulted with somebody what to expect you know all the I don't think that I knew I think at that point I was just so done that I was like all right I'm doing it but I had no idea what was coming after I had no idea like I didn't know that you know I needed to go to I needed to go to mediation I didn't even understand what that meant and you know I didn't understand that they were going to divvy up our assets and I had no idea what it meant and had I had somebody to walk me through it as opposed to consulting with my mom that was like you know whatever makes you happy well and it's so important because yes that's an important factor right what's going to make you happiest and it's important to also have the other information like you were saying what would it actually look like if I went forward with this because then you can make a well-rounded decision yeah how do you feel about real question I should say how do you feel about prenups I love them do you yes I don't have one is that I know you could get a post-nup it's not too late

12:31I got one for my second marriage you did and was your was he like offended by it no he was on board He's also an attorney, so it sort of helped. But I think he just respects me as an individual, and I respect him as an individual. And what I learned a lot through my first marriage and divorce is that it's really about two individuals coming together to build a life together, not about completing each other. And so I want to respect and love the person who is entering into my life and vice versa. and it actually causes you to have those uncomfortable conversations about money and lifestyle and retirement and kids.

13:12And those conversations, even though they're very uncomfortable, they're so important to have before you get married. And if you can't have them now when you're more in love than ever, you know, what makes you think you're going to be able to have them later when life life's you? Yeah, for sure. So it's just about laying that foundation for getting comfortable talking about uncomfortable things, making sure that you're aligned with what, you know, short-term and long-term for your future. And I also think it just sort of releases some of the pressure on the marriage because there's not that uncertainty looming up.

13:44Well, what happens if this doesn't work out? You can just be fully present and know, well, I already know what would happen if it doesn't work out. I already took care of that.

13:50Kara Francis:And then you can kind of take that out of the equation. So like if you decide, you know, later on, like this is not for me, at least you're financial. because I think a lot of people, men and women, stay in a relationship because they're codependent on each other. Yeah. I think that is a big, I don't know, I'm not, I would just say from people that I know personally that that's a big reason that people stay together. But I think that's good because it really just kind of states, like, this is already taken care of. We're going to stay together because we love each other and we're going to build a foundation in the future.

14:18Kara Francis:But if all this, which is a big reason, is it still a big reason that people get divorced because of finances? Like, is that a driving reason? It used to be, like, a huge reason. like the number one reason, is that still the reason or? I would say it's not, I mean, sure, it comes up. Money is a struggle and, you know, it's a stressor in every relationship. However, I think these days, because the world has changed so much, especially for women in finances and women can be self-sufficient now and it's not as big of a barrier, I find that more women are thinking along the lines of, well, I'm staying with you because I love you and because I choose you, not because I feel like I have to.

14:58And a lot of the women that I'm working with are feeling like they're not feeling that that connection and that alignment is there. Like this is a good person. They're not a bad person. But we're just sort of existing as roommates. And I don't really feel that connection with them on a more intimate level.

15:15Kara Francis:Now, do you feel – because I feel like marriage is ebb and flow. Like there's some days I really like my husband and there's some days I really don't like him at all. but uh you know for the women that come and they're like well you know it's like some days I'm really in love I mean is that a thing is that a thing are you always really in love with your partner I don't know I agree with you I think it ebbs and flows there are some days where I don't want to be around anyone including my husband and there are other days where I don't want to be anywhere else but with him yeah I think especially as women and our bodies and our hormones I mean we're always fluctuating emotionally.

15:53And so I think the important thing is trying to make decisions when you're in a place that's grounded and calm, as opposed to when you're in those more emotionally reactive places and allowing the emotions to come and go and then coming back to yourself and checking back in with yourself.

16:10Kara Francis:Yeah, I would agree too. Because a lot of times things are emotionally driven. But when women come to you, is there like a criteria that you're looking at like this is like I'm gonna help this woman just get rid of this person or like we're gonna help them like keep the marriage together is there like a is there something that you're looking for so my work is regardless of what happens with the relationship my work is focused on identity got you so because so many of my clients come to me and even past clients as an attorney who would say I don't even know who I am anymore I've completely lost myself yeah and And that always pains me because these women are fantastic and they were not always feeling that way.

16:51So you know it's there. They just need help getting back there. And so the work that I do is really about helping them reconnect with themselves, own what's not working, own their part in that. So it requires a level of accountability and responsibility for your own decisions and how you're showing up. And so those are the type of women I sort of have my barometer set for clients is women who are ready to make changes in their life and ready to really take a look in the mirror and own their stuff and also be ready to change it and not be a victim to it.

17:26Kara Francis:Yeah, that makes sense. So there are women that you actually help the marriage to where you put the marriage back together, so to speak, because sometimes it is our fault. Listen, I'm no picnic in the park. You know, I hate to admit it, but I know that I'm no picnic in the park. But a marriage is tough. And I think we forget that as a society in general. Look, women, as women, and I talk about this all the time, we think we're so progressive. And we are really not as progressive in society as we think we are. It wasn't until, what, like the late 1970s that a woman can have her name on a mortgage, right?

17:57Kara Francis:So, you know, we're in like a really delicate turn point, I think, right now for women. Where women are, you know, we're in this women empowerment. I know because I'm part of this. like I'm on the bandwagon you know I am on this bandwagon teaching my daughter you can be anything you want but you know I also this might sound crazy but I also kind of believe in chivalry I do a little bit I I do play like I'm definitely an A-type you know dominating person but at home because my husband and I work together I am like I want to be his wife you know I don't want to take the trash out I think that's probably why I believe in chivalry like I don't and that's what But real chivalry.

18:36Yes.

18:37Kara Francis:No, I want to be his wife. You know, I don't want to be his business partner. I want to be his wife. I want to take care of the children. And we do, not because we define them, but we do have pretty defining roles, you know, when it comes to the house and the kids and keeping it clean. And I mean, how do you feel about chivalry? That's where the romance is. Yeah. You know, a lot of my clients say, you know, I just feel like we're roommates or we're just co-parents, but there's nothing else there. So I think for a healthy, long-lasting marriage, you need both compatibility, right? You're aligned with how you want to live your life and things run smoothly and you need the chemistry and the chemistry will ebb and flow as well.

19:20But there's got to be like that foundational, you know, I want you, you want me, I want you to, you know, I can take care of myself, but I want you to take care of me a little bit. You know, it's, It's that dance that you do in a romantic relationship. I think it keeps it going.

19:38Kara Francis:And who doesn't want to be taken care of a little bit? I feel like a man should, right? That's what the man is, the protector, right? I don't really want to be my husband's protector. I don't really want to do that. I really don't want to. And sometimes it is nice. You want to be taken care of. And listen, it's hard being a dominating female out there. It's hard on the streets for a girl like me. It's hard being a badass bitch. I mean, come on. It is. All right, I'm going to switch gears. We're going to have fun. I'm going to do a little rapid fire, okay? You've been in the room for the best and worst of marriages for people, okay?

20:10Kara Francis:So you're going to tell me true or false. Most women know their marriages over long before they admit it, even to themselves. True. Probably about six months ahead. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Hell yeah. At least. I knew. On my 30th birthday when I blew out those candles, I'm like, there's no fucking way I'm staying. I knew it. I knew. A woman who stays in a bad marriage for the kids is making the right call. Is making the right call true or false? What do you think? I will say false with a caveat. If the only reason she's staying is because she thinks that it will harm the kids to leave, then yes, I think she's making the wrong decision because studies have even shown.

20:55Kara Francis:Kids don't give a shit. that well kids are resilient right and in the end they want you to be loved and happy and in the end they want two happy parents as opposed to two people who are together but miserable yeah so that's my that's my copy I agree my kids tell me all the time the best thing you could have ever done in life is leave dad and they love their dad but they just know that like I'm like I I there's just no way we just can't we cannot we can be best friends but that's it that's all we be. That's it. Couples therapy saves marriages most of the time. I would say, gosh, I'm such a lawyer because I always want to say it depends.

21:31You're like, you cannot hold me. I would say saves marriages most times. I would say false if it's going in as a reactive. I think couples therapy as a proactive step can definitely save marriages because you're getting ahead of things and you're establishing how to communicate but if your marriage has reached a place where you where it's resentful and you don't even want to be around each other couples therapy it's kind of hard to to come back through that but it can be a good venue to talk through what comes next

22:02Kara Francis:yeah yeah i feel like it's a little triggering you know you go to therapy and they're like bringing up all the shit you're like i hate this person even more um men are more afraid of divorce than women, they just hide it better. I'm going to say true, because I think I read a statistic the other day, 70 % some, even more of divorces are initiated by women. And I think, yeah, I think men like to have, you know, generally speaking, straight heterosexual men like to have a wife. And that's why too, it's interesting, men tend to move on much faster after divorce than women, because women are okay being alone or they have their community of their girlfriends.

22:44And I feel like there's just not that equivalent on the male side.