Lily Lane on Fear, Confidence & Chasing Her Dream

11:55Mara Dorner:I love being married. Do you? I love it. I love it. I love it. But, but I was scared. And I think that's, I think that's normal. Um, I wasn't scared to marry him, but I was scared to like be an adult. And of course I've been an adult for a long time, but I think when you're a Mrs. Um, you fear that you're going to lose your identity. Yeah. Or people won't see you as you anymore. Like I wouldn't be Lily Lane. I get it.

12:18Lily Lane:Mrs. Whoever. Yeah.

12:19Mara Dorner:But I'm, but he's, he's so wonderful and he, he's very talented and he does like a lot of amazing things and I would be lucky to like just be his wife but he really does like let me um shine yeah and I I'm very appreciative yeah my husband the same thing like my husband's

12:35Lily Lane:an introvert he's usually he's brilliant same thing like he is like the ultimate support like he's biggest cheerleader yeah you know kind of behind the scenes letting me do my thing and so I this is my second husband so I was always like my first I was very young second husband comes I'm like okay I've established myself as Mara you know which was really scary for me to get married again then I'm like well I don't want like I don't want to be defined by my husband Seth yeah because I always wanted my own identity as well so I get it but being married you know what honestly I feel like I'm more independent now more than ever because my husband is so supportive of everything that I do he lets me stand alone but he also stands beside me yeah never in front of me though

13:16Mara Dorner:never next to yeah he always makes sure that you get to be seen too yeah it's really wonderful and i think a lot of the fear that people have about domestication or getting married or settling settling down is um something that they have because they've never been in like the right relationship yeah i think the right i think the wrong relationship maybe would feel like being domesticated in a cage and settling down but the right one i think i think i figured that out and I put that on this record and I also put on this record the idea that in stories they usually end with the wedding fairy tales there's it usually just says and then they live happily ever after it's like what is that like what are they doing living yeah what are they doing living happily ever after like what does that entail and that's kind of what I'm exploring on this album and it turns out happily ever after you can still be sad you can still be mad you can still have all of these emotions you just like have someone to help you work through them and you don't sit in them

14:18Lily Lane:as long yeah and somebody to like really beat up you know when you're really i just use my husband when i'm upset verbally i verbally no i don't i don't okay but you know like a funny you know

14:27Mara Dorner:like they always say you like you're mean to the ones that you love the most no but in a good way like yeah anytime there's some i don't ever have to watch my back yeah you know like i can let it

14:35Lily Lane:just be me my authentic self i don't have to be anyone just mara and he's gonna love me no matter or what type of thing. So I don't really have verbally. I want to be clear. I don't verbally. She was kidding. She was kidding. Maybe something. No, no. It depends on what day of the week.

14:48Mara Dorner:Okay. Yeah. Depends on the day of the month. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

14:51Lily Lane:Yes. Yes. Yes. Well said. So, okay. So you, I mean, you are young and maintaining your own image, I'm sure is kind of hard. Like, how do you do that with, with social media and the stigma of like how a woman should be or how a wife should be? How are you able to like keep that completely separate or just define it for you?

15:07Mara Dorner:It's, it's difficult. It's definitely, um, changed as I've gotten older. When I was in my early twenties, I was a Wilhelmina model. I was a curve model. So I was doing a lot. I love that. It was, it was, it was wonderful. Shout out Denise Badeau for letting me know that curve modeling even existed. Shout out Ashley Graham for giving me my first job. Um, I really, I had a different relationship to my body and my image because I was a model people were hiring me and then kind of like putting whatever image they wanted on me yeah so that was confusing for me um and but it was also liberating like I would do an ad for underwear I would do an ad and I would feel great about like I would feel great about it I didn't feel like I was in my like underpants in front of everyone embarrassed like it was great and I would I would post ads and I would be very proud of them but now I only post music I think I built up a following when I was younger doing music of mostly women and then I started modeling and I started gaining more of a following of men right and it's not that I didn't like that I just know that those people were not there for my music so when I finally was doing well enough in music that I got the opportunity to stop modeling and just focus on it.

16:26Mara Dorner:I made a concerted effort to only put music related, Lily Lane universe related things on my social media because I didn't want people to. I'm very proud of the work I've done modeling, but I didn't want people to see me as a model. I wanted them to see me as a musician first. And I think I think that's been I think that's been more successful. I think that's been like a successful endeavor because now when people look me up they know exactly what they're getting yeah and it's definitely harder I definitely post less yeah because I always feel like it's probably something I need to work on people always say just keep posting post more and more but I'm posting less because everything's very curated like I want everything to be within this domesticated Lily Lane universe right now so people understand where I'm at but also if they were a fan of me from my modeling I'm very grateful and I appreciate that but yeah where I'm at as I've gotten older I've gotten less attached to the way not just the way I look but the way I'm perceived like I think I really used to like being a model and being perceived as like a cute girl and a model and now I kind of couldn't care less if people perceive me as attractive or not I just want them to know me enough to give my music a chance I think that is super authentic

17:53Lily Lane:because my question was about authenticity and you completely answered it it's about remaining authentic and you're so young it's you know I talk about this a lot it took me a long time to really understand what authenticity was like I spent a lot of years really just kind of pressed on what other people thought of me, how I looked. And I'm finally at this age, comfortable with who I am first inside and then outside, you know, and I think they kind of go hand in hand. And I love what you're talking about, like authenticity and knowing your voice first before the way that you look. And for some people, and I, and I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

18:27Lily Lane:People want to be known for the way they look, then that's fine. Yeah.

18:30Mara Dorner:There's so many, there's so many beautiful women. And like, I was just at, um, I was just at the daily front row fashion awards and Iman got an award and I've never seen a more beautiful woman in my life than Iman like it was insane and she's done a lot of amazing charitable work too but like she is a beautiful woman and she has done amazing work around being beautiful and and showing what beauty is um and I love that but it's it's it's not my path I've always known that music was my path and as I've gotten older I've gotten more serious about I let I care less about just getting attention and more about getting attention for the specific thing that I am proud of.

19:11Mara Dorner:And everything else, it's kind of like nobody's business.

19:13Lily Lane:Well said. Well, well, well, well said. That was her. I want my daughter to hear this. Because, you know, as a teenager, she struggles with it. You know, like what everybody wants her to look like or what like social media is showing other than, you know, her realizing that there's a lot of filters out there too. But it's remaining true to who you are and being authentic to your authentic self more than anything else. I think that was well, well, well said. and you're so sure where does that come from because you are out there in the public eye so where is that coming like that's a and you're so young to be so sure of yourself and I love how you said like this is where I'm at now you were a model that's where but here's where you are now you're in the domesticated part of your life and that could change so yeah there's been many seasons

19:55Mara Dorner:in my life many yeah and and the next EP like um two two EPs ago my my last like big project that I did was the Queen of Hearts EP and that was in 2022 or 2023 I don't I think I don't know but it was then and it was a totally different energy it was about how I have that was that was fun check out that EP if you're not in like a domesticated mood if you're not in a relationship if you're like very independent or you're like trying to find yourself or your tribe the Queen of Hearts ep was great because it was so tonally opposite but the soul is there and like the bops are there

20:40Lily Lane:you know maybe that's where all that authenticity comes from because of the soul you know like i feel like the music i love music i really do i love music so much in all different types of genres of it but like when you're into it like you can feel it in your soul oh yeah maybe you're just like an old soul i feel like you know like you have like not in a bad way no i know i know Like your vibe is just like you're so confident. Thank you. So sure of yourself. And that's so important because I meet so many young women that are just unsure. Yeah. They're just kind of going with the flow, kind of living up to these social media and social norms and what they think it is.

21:13Lily Lane:It's hard.

21:13Mara Dorner:I feel for your daughter because I cannot imagine what it must be like to have been in high school with all of this social media. Like I think maybe when I was in high school, maybe there was there was definitely Facebook. But I don't know if there was even Instagram. and it wasn't it was like not as bad as yeah and the pictures on Facebook people would upload like 100 pictures of one day and it was like very casual and not like nobody Instagram is Instagram is an amazing tool for businesses and brands but it's also very addictive and very

21:52Lily Lane:like it gets into your head it does so same thing with Snapchat because yeah I don't even

21:56Mara Dorner:have snapchat yeah i don't i'm out of snapchat i just know from my 17 year old that like the

22:01Lily Lane:things that they deal with and they text via snapchat they don't even text yeah so you can't

22:05Mara Dorner:see it that's and they have the telegram thing this other that's insane it's crazy but what it

22:11Lily Lane:does is it heightens like what's not normal yeah so these girls are kind of put up against things that are not normal or then your business goes viral yeah and then all of a sudden they're dealing with issues that they should never ever be exposed to at such a young age and it's terrible I really feel for anyone that's growing up right now. Yeah. Because it is a brutal society right now. So that's, you know, that's my little soapbox on that. Did you? I already know that you're standing up to say so go. Okay. Okay. All right. So we're going to do some fun segments right now that we're putting into this content.

22:45Lily Lane:So let's see how it goes. Okay. All right. So it's time for a boss round. Quick fire and no filter. Okay. All right. So one song of yours that deserved more love.

22:54Mara Dorner:that deserve where have you been all my life why it's so good it's so good it's um it's so good it's I sing my ass off on that song and it is it is both it is the marriage of my old music and my new music it is both a dark pop bop and a lighter uh more chorally epic uplifting song. It rocks. Love it. Something is something you did that you'll never apologize for. Something I did that I'll never apologize for. Um, like most things, most things, uh, oh, being a plus size model, uh, being, being a bigger woman, being in a bigger body for a long time and loving myself and not losing weight because people wanted me to.

23:47Lily Lane:I love that. I Love it, love it, love it. Yes, yes, yes. All right, dream collab. If you can pick anybody and anyone, who would it be?

23:54Mara Dorner:Anybody. Yeah. Anybody. John Legend.

24:01Lily Lane:Even Dead or Alive.

24:02Mara Dorner:Amy Winehouse, John Legend.

24:04Lily Lane:There you go. Love it. Perfect. Love it, love it, love it. All right, so got some, there's always some controversy. So I have to ask you something controversial. You face judgment for your image, your art, even maybe some of your past choices. what's the real story behind the person people think they know like is there anything that you would think that you know maybe something that's people look at you and they think they know but

24:26Mara Dorner:they really don't yeah I think people think that I I don't know I'm very I'm very silly and positive I think a lot of my music is darker and I'm like a very big person and some of my outfit choices and stuff are very provocative but I am just like a sweet lovable stoner at the end of the day like that's the truth I love that I'm just sweet yeah I just I like my dogs I'm I'm I I like attention when I'm on stage but I'm not I think people would be surprised how I don't need or desire attention when it doesn't have to do with my music.

25:12Lily Lane:True. That's it. I love it. If tomorrow the headlines twisted your words, what's the one message you wish they actually print?

25:21Mara Dorner:That you can do anything and the only thing stopping you is you stopping yourself. Every successful person I know heard no a million times and every unsuccessful person I know stopped. The industry didn't say you're never going to be successful. And they kept trying. No, they just stopped because they didn't want to do it anymore or it wasn't fun for them anymore. The only thing stopping you from success is yourself and stopping.

25:45Lily Lane:I love that. I mean, I think I 100 % agree with that because anything in life worth having, you have to work hard for. There's going to be a million people that say no to you, but there will be one person that says yes. It's a numbers game.

25:56Mara Dorner:I agree.

25:57Lily Lane:Love it. I like Nike's slogan the best to just do it.

26:00Mara Dorner:Just do it. Who cares?

26:01Lily Lane:You have nothing to lose, right? Yeah, I agree. I love it. All right. So you dropped a master's class owning your story. Is that true?

26:10Mara Dorner:I don't know.

26:10Lily Lane:Is that not true? I have that in the thing. It's not true.

26:12Mara Dorner:Oh, okay. But it sounds great. All right.

26:15Lily Lane:Never mind. I don't even know what that means, but I'm, hold on.

26:17Mara Dorner:I love it. That could just be me.

26:19Lily Lane:Hold on. That's just me. All right. All right. Hold on. I have, how much, how much time are we working with right now? We're good on time? Sorry. No worries. No worries. All right. Um, your new single, um, um, reciprocation is the first glimpse of your upcoming EP domesticated. What inspired this project?

26:38Mara Dorner:Uh, happily ever after, um, after my wedding last year, I sat down to a wedding is like a lot of work to plan. It's, uh, I had no idea how much, but when I, as soon as I was done with it, it was like, I had free time, not free time, but like I had time to refocus on music. and it was like, what, what's next? What's after happily ever after. And it's like a lot of the same stuff as before, just kind of with a buddy.

27:07Lily Lane:That's, I mean, that's whatever. That's a fair answer. I love that. And you've had millions of viewers on YouTube, right? Millions. So where, like, I would say, where did it first start that you started to get that viewership? Was there like a song that came out? There was.

27:21Mara Dorner:Yeah. Nothing but trouble. Um, I had a song worth listening to. Yeah, I had a that's probably like my biggest hit. It was on Pretty Little Liars a couple of times and it was tied into like a big reveal on the show. And that show at the time was like the biggest show on TV. And it had such a intense fandom that they would listen to all the songs after and make edits with the songs of the characters. And it was the first time like one of my songs had a life of its own away from me. and it was awesome it I really enjoyed being the soundtrack to tv shows and movies and ads but also

28:00Lily Lane:being the soundtrack to like people's lives I love that one was like do you remember the first time like you heard yourself outside of like yourself but like on something public yeah yeah I think it

28:10Mara Dorner:was uh kiss 108 fm in Boston it was the radio station I grew up listening to and I performed at their kiss concert one year so they put me in the they put my song in the rotation because I was performing at their event and it was it was so cool it was it was so you remember where you were what you were doing I was driving I was in the car I was all of a sudden in the car um yeah because I'd filmed like an interview with them or something I knew it was going to happen at some point and yeah I was in the passenger seat I don't think I even had my license at that point and yeah it was crazy and and I remember thinking gosh my talking voice sounds so weird

28:47Lily Lane:yeah when you hear yourself yeah I don't like to hear myself either I don't know it's but you sound good I just sound like you annoying as fuck I'm like that annoying voice has got to stop I can

28:57Mara Dorner:only imagine how other people feel when I speak I kind of feel the same way about my talking voice like I could listen to myself sing for a long time and like be good with it I love singing and I I'm very proud of my voice but talking listening to myself talk every time I'm asked to do a podcast I'm like, are you sure?

29:14Lily Lane:So now that you're married, I'm sure everybody wants to know this is like the mom and me. So are there children on the horizon or is that something we're like back burning? Is it something that might be up there? Yeah. You know, I'm not I'm not I'm not going to.

29:30Mara Dorner:I know nothing, you know, with stuff like that. It's so funny. You grow up and people tell you how careful you have to be when having sex. You could have a baby. It's so scary. And then you get you get married and people say to you, oh it's so hard you have to try really hard it's really difficult to have a baby it's like which is it did your mom scare you I do it to my daughter I'm like if you get touched you're

29:50Lily Lane:gonna get pregnant yeah and you could die growing up all the time I'm like 100 % like if you have sex you could die I just want you to know that I tell my son the same thing growing up I thought

29:57Mara Dorner:people like sneezed and got pregnant like the way people talked about it it sounded like it was super

30:01Lily Lane:easy because that's what happens I just want you to know that's what happens yeah that that that's

30:05Mara Dorner:what happens children that's what happens but for some reason once you're married uh everyone keeps saying it's like very difficult.

30:12Lily Lane:Yeah.

30:12Mara Dorner:So, you know, when, whatever, whenever it happens, whatever God's timing is, I'm good with it.

30:18Lily Lane:I love you. So you've lived, I mean, you're just, you're like at the horizon, right? You, I don't, I feel like you're like climaxing. You're on the up, like you're on the up over there. You're, you're getting up there and you're going to have so many different chapters in your life. Now, when people label you, you're really clear that you want to be known as an artist. Is there ever like any acting? I know you said you did some acting when you were little, you're not an actress, but is that something that you would consider?

30:44Mara Dorner:I would consider it, but I'm so tall. I think most of the six foot tall roles for women are like the giant or like the Amazon. And while I would do that, I like, just don't see myself. It's not, it's going to be like a side thing for a friend or my, my husband's a director and he writes and directs and sometimes stars in TV shows and movies and stuff. And if he wrote a role for me or something I would do it but I don't think I would take time away from music to act because it's just like not something I'm passionate about and I know so many amazing actors who deserve their shot it's like I don't like what's what you know so that's just like yeah I just want

31:23Lily Lane:to be a singer yeah that's your thing yeah I love that and you're super sure of it yeah and I think

31:28Mara Dorner:like if my husband wrote me into something I would be doing it because it would be helping him like achieve his vision and his dreams and I'd love to help other people achieve their vision and dreams but my vision and dreams, it's really just music.

31:39Lily Lane:I love that for you. Is there something like as you're getting involved in this heavily, is there something that you weren't prepared for? Like something that you've been faced with that you're like, oh shit, I didn't know that this can happen, anything like that?

31:52Mara Dorner:Honestly, I wasn't prepared for how late everything is. I thought at least when I was living in LA, I started getting up early and here in New York, it feels like all the events all the shows um all the fashion shows or parties that i've been asked to perform at and stuff it's so late it's like past my bedtime yes girl they do i know every time i go to a show

32:15Lily Lane:the performer comes on at midnight 2 a.m i'm tired by them i don't know and they'll say the show

32:20Mara Dorner:starts at 8 or the show doesn't i don't get it i don't what are they so can you tell us what are

32:25Lily Lane:they doing behind the stage i want to know that i couldn't tell you like i have a show that starts

32:28Mara Dorner:at seven this week and I think there's an opener or there's someone going on before me but I will be on and done before nine do you know what I mean like what yeah but what is going on there

32:41Lily Lane:that it takes just so long for like the main event or even just the event to start maybe it's

32:47Mara Dorner:if it's a big tour it's probably like set up uh like a Taylor Swift tour there's so many uh like moving pieces for the stage and stuff. But if it's just like a, I don't know, I don't know, it's ridiculous. And some, you know, there's some like iconic divas that show up three hours late and they're like, you're lucky to be in my presence. Like, and some people, I guess, have earned that right. But I'm very much if you tell me to be there at six, I'm going to be there at 545.

33:16Lily Lane:I feel like that's right, especially if people are paying to like see you. And if it's

33:20Mara Dorner:Like if it's a school or a work night, like people have lies. Yes, I can't be out all night. Yeah. So true. Yeah.

33:26Lily Lane:Yeah, we can't do it. All right, so I have another game for you. Are you ready? Fact or cap? Are you ready? Yep. All right, here we go. Now, fame gives you freedom. Fact or cap? No right or wrong. Fact. Fact, okay. All right, Hollywood friendships are most likely fake. Cap. All right, being sexy online hurts your credibility as an artist?

33:54Mara Dorner:Fact, but I wish it wasn't a fact. And sometimes it can help it. It definitely affects it, though, either way. I would say fact. That's true. All right, that's true. I like that. That was perfect.

34:03Lily Lane:That was great. Thank you. All right, we're going to flip this script real quick from art to entrepreneurship. OK. OK, because you are an entrepreneur, essentially. Yeah. You are your own boss. You kind of do your own thing. Yeah. I'm sure you have a manager. And I hire, but yeah, yeah, for sure. You hire the people that are going to work with you. For sure. which is I'm sure is that a trend because did you go to school you didn't go to school for business

34:22Mara Dorner:did you um the Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music is a like dual music and business thing so they taught us a lot about contracts I love that it was amazing if you're interested in being in the music industry and and I had to pay to go to school like they didn't pay this is I'm not plugged but it's a it's a wonderful place it's worth it it's really great so now that you're

34:44Lily Lane:in business okay you're like you're adulting you're in business has there ever been a business move that you were like I don't know I probably shouldn't have done that something that you might

34:53Mara Dorner:have doubted or someone doubted yeah I've said no to things before that I wished I hadn't and I've said yes to things where looking back it was like was that really worth it um but I think that's how you learn I wouldn't have known that those things were a bad idea if I hadn't done them fair enough

35:13Lily Lane:yeah I love that so okay also because you know as business image is I mean image is everything but how are you able to still and I know we talked about it we touched on it you know you want to be recognized as an artist but you still have to have some kind of image right so how do you maintain like as a businesswoman where's the balance or is there none I don't know I don't know it's difficult

35:36Mara Dorner:uh it's difficult to find like for instance if you're doing a magazine this I'll give you yeah

35:42Lily Lane:Like you're doing a magazine cover, right? And they want you to be like super sexy, maybe like, you know, something a little uncomfortable. Okay. I have something like that.

35:51Mara Dorner:I have a very relevant anecdote. I just recently performed at a New York Fashion Week. I sang at a New York Fashion Week lingerie fashion show and it was amazing. But in the past I've modeled lingerie, but I, and I think they probably assumed that I was comfortable just wearing lingerie again. I was going to wear their stuff. but I ended up bringing like a see-through long sleeve shirt and like I ended up putting more clothes on than obviously the models and probably I don't know I think she wanted me to be comfortable so it was fine but it's it's difficult I 10 years ago I would have said yeah put me in lingerie like I don't care but it's not just me I'm thinking about now it's also like my future children and my husband and you know when you apply to apartments they look at all that it's like

36:40Lily Lane:you want to yeah you are in there yeah when I feel like some point you've got to put your foot down yeah and something like some things that were appropriate back then might not be appropriate like they are now you know I just I agree with you I think some things go 10 years ago versus

36:53Mara Dorner:like now you just got to be like no yeah like at fashion week I wore a garter and thigh highs on the outside of my dress so I could like show off the lingerie but I had a dress underneath it so I wasn't showing yeah but it was still sexy and I think you can do that yeah I think you can be like

37:12Lily Lane:feminine and sexy and still be fully clothed yeah I don't know that I would no I would do that I have children yeah there is definitely there is definitely a place in time and I think there's an appropriate age and era for that whereas like you're right as you become more mature you can look sexy in so many different ways and it doesn't necessarily mean showing a lot of skin

37:31Mara Dorner:and you know what at one point I did show a lot of skin and like I hope all the 21 year olds that are like dressing up in little lingerie for Halloween like I hope they're having the time of their lives live it up yeah but but yeah it's not for me at some point yeah live it up honey

37:45Lily Lane:I'm just jealous but you know at some point so that leads me to another question young artists they're coming up there's going to be a ton and they're going to come up to you as a mentor and they're going to say listen I mean I want to look a certain way they might be scared of being too much how would you like how would you mentor that person or what advice would you give to that young

38:05Mara Dorner:artist or just young I think a lot of I think I was probably even told this but like you don't listen to it it's like be yourself and like all that stuff don't don't listen to if you have an artistic vision and you want to be seen as an artist focus on that but if you just want to be a star and make money and and get attention and like there are people that will help you do that and that you can listen to and that know that stuff. But if you want to be an artist and you have like a singular vision and you know who you are and you know the kind of impact you want to have, don't let anyone, don't let anyone take you away from that.

38:42Lily Lane:I think that's well said. Very well said. I mean, you have so, I love listening to you talk. Your story is unbelievable. So last, okay, so now as we wrap up, tell me, last advice that you give somebody, anybody, piece of advice, biggest piece of advice besides like to a young just person in general so give a big piece of advice to somebody that might be starting out on their journey in the world um keep your support

39:08Mara Dorner:system very close to you and that doesn't necessarily mean they have to work with you like make sure that you have people that you trust that are looking out for you that have no monetary gain from you losing or succeeding do you know people that aren't making money off of you because if they are, they have, they're at least in some way considering that when they give you any advice, you need people who have nothing to do with your business and your life, people that just want what's best for you and your wellbeing and keep them close to you.

39:39Lily Lane:That's sound advice. I love it. And that's a, that's a very hard lesson to learn very. And you learned it so early on. I mean, you literally like such a voice of reason. You remind me of just talking to my daughter. Cause she's, I always call her the little voice of reason. And you are, I'm so excited that you are here today. If people want to find you, where would they find you? Lily Lane, Instagram, Lily Lane, Spotify, Apple Music, Amazon Music, wherever you listen to music,

40:07Mara Dorner:Tidal, just Lily Lane, L-I-L-Y-L-A-N-E. And if you're not in a domesticated, loved up place in your life, I have been through lots of things and I have lots of music that can meet you where you're at if you don't want to meet me where I'm at. So just get into it.

40:25Lily Lane:Wow, I love it. And anything big coming up for you that you want to tell everybody about?

40:29Mara Dorner:Besides your single dropping? Yeah, the domesticated EP. The domesticated EP will probably be out around the time that this will be out too. All right, well, there you have it.

40:40Lily Lane:We just heard an incredible breakdown of Miss Lily Lane, how she's overcome so many different things but remained true to herself. So I have a challenge for you. Get comfortable with being uncomfortable. This week, do something that you wouldn't ordinarily do, whether it's pursuing that job that you kind of put on the back burner, maybe writing a book, writing a song, just something that would put you in that uncomfortable spot, but ultimately will give you a bigger dream and a bigger vision. So that's it for today. And thanks for coming on the show.

41:13Mara Dorner:Thank you for having me.