She Said “No” to Big Pharma — And Built Her Own Movement

25:12Kelly Brogan:But, you know, they brought in, I mean, they brought in your understanding and your level of understanding human beings and what an authentic, real relationship is. Because at the end of the day, kids are not judging you and they love you for who you are. It doesn't matter how much education or, you know, what your title is. It doesn't matter. You're just mom to them. So, you know, I can absolutely resonate with you on that. But I want to switch gears and talk a little bit about depression. I know you talk about depression and mental illness is definitely a real thing. I combat anxiety myself.

25:41Kelly Brogan:I live with it daily. I don't take medication for it. Not that I don't have anything bad. Anyone could take medication. I just chose not to do it. That was not my thing. I wanted to control it otherwise. But you speak a lot about that and, you know, kind of controlling it also through, you know, your emotions. So can you talk a little bit about that depression versus, you know, utilizing medicine versus dealing with your emotions? Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the primary distinctions between trying to problem solve something that you're experiencing that you don't like and trying to know yourself and to experience your life as a journey of self-discovery, right?

26:29So those are two different types of consciousness. Those are two different mindsets. Those are two different meanings of life, right? So like either life is a test to ace, it's a riddle to resolve or it's a journey, an archetypal hero or heroine's journey and the destination is an inner one, right? So that's more of like a Jungian perspective, I would say, than the psychopharmacologic medication-based allopathic perspective I was trained in. So when you say like, you know, there's nothing wrong with taking meds, I can definitely say some things that are wrong with taking meds and I'm happy to share those based on the published evidence.

27:10And when I say wrong, I'm sort of like tongue in cheek saying like, well, you just might not know this. So let me put you on before you make a decision that definitely impacts the rest of your life, especially if you take meds for more than two months. But it's really more about like, what are you a match for, right? What are you aligned with? and either you're interested in why you're experiencing something, you're curious about why you're experiencing something because you know that a symptom is like a message from you. And while it's very tempting to imagine that somebody can help you understand what that message is, aka a doctor, they really can't.

27:48That's like the worst freaking news is only you can understand and decode your journey. Literally only you can know what your anxiety is actually about. Why is it happening? It's not random, right? So only you can know the question that is being posed to your life, right? You are the one to answer that question. And that doesn't mean you can't get support and attract amazing resources, but it's a question that literally only you can answer. And usually these more chronic issues that we call anxiety or depression, even we could get into bipolar, even schizophrenia, ADHD. It's all the same in my opinion and not just my opinion.

28:32There is a major shift in your life scape that is being asked of you. And when you're ready to address it, you will. And you won't even up to a moment before you're ready. So that's where there's literally no judgment in it. It is what it is until there's a readiness to change. And when there's a readiness to change, you'll move towards that change and it'll feel like relief. It won't feel scary. It won't feel intimidating. And I'm talking big changes in life, identity shifts, right? Like you pivot in your experience of yourself and you expand the definition of what that means. So, you know, when you're looking at what are these things, it's important to know that psychiatry has no basis in valid diagnostics.

29:28What do I mean by that? When we use these terms, they're subjective, right? They're dictionary terms that are descriptive in nature. There's no blood test. There's no cerebrospinal fluid. There's no genetic test. There's no scan that can help you to diagnose it. You are diagnosed literally like, do you remember like Cosmo magazine quizzes? Okay. That's what goes on in the hallowed halls of academic psychiatry. Okay. So it, these are not actual disease entities. They're patterns. They're behavioral patterns. And who cares? Why I care is because once you start working with a label, you're hexed.

30:07Kelly Brogan:You're adopting all of the condemning negative energy of that label that now defines your self-concept in a way that is so extraordinarily limiting that a rebirth is required. And this is my specialty, right? Like this is what I helped patients with as I supported their deprescribing and coming off of meds for 10 years in New York. A rebirth is required to literally reclaim yourself from this small shell of a broken, damaged version of yourself that you identified with when you took that diagnosis. This is probably true about every diagnosis, but we're just talking about psychiatry. Once you take that diagnosis, then of course, it makes sense to accept the prescription that goes with it.

30:52I mean, that's like the only logical next step, right? So you accept the prescription and you think, okay, well, this could have some side effects, but maybe it'll work. That's how I would think about it. That's how I used to think about it, right? Well, the literature tells a very different story. So it tells quite a different story about the efficacy, right? And in summary, I mean, I could give a whole weekend workshop on this, but in summary, these medications are no more effective than an active placebo. An active placebo is a medication that you can feel you're taking, right? So you get a little headache, you get a little dry mouth, it has like similar side effects.

31:31Once that happens, what happens? You say, oh, it's working. Something's happening. Right. And that's all that's necessary to get about 30 % of an effect that overlaps entirely with a medication that has nothing to do with psychiatry at all. In fact, most of the studies are in cardiac meds. It's just that effective, right? The rest of it is belief, right?

31:55Kelly Brogan:I would agree with you. I'm well-established in the literature, right? So they don't work, actually. They definitely don't work in the long term. And in fact, in the long term, the outcomes are way worse in terms of functionality. The book that broke this open for me and made me put down my prescription pad for good is called Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker. and basically what he proved through these non-industry funded studies is that disability the world over, mental health disability the world over is driven by medication compliance. You take your meds, you're more disabled. Well, that would make you think twice about taking it, right?

32:35Like even if it's like, oh, Xanax or Klonopin or Valium for like a short-term situation, but once you're past the two-month mark, you're in a very different terrain. And who's talking to about the risks and benefits of this terrain. But it's actually the risks that I never learned about as a very active prescriber that were terrifying to me. Because once I started to dig around and look at what some of these mentors in my field were blowing the whistle about, I found out that not only are these the most habit-forming chemicals on the planet, literally make like crack cocaine, alcohol, OxyContin look like a total joke.

33:14I mean, coming off these medications after you've been on them for even a few months is something that could literally put you in the hospital in a way that you never, ever imagined you were going to be dealing with. I mean, this was my specialty, like I said, for a long time. And anybody who's ever gone through this can tell you what that journey is like. Okay, nobody tells you that up front when you're filling your first prescription. And also they have very unpredictable side effects that can lead to, and this sounds dramatic, but can lead to violence, right? So people who kill themselves, kill other people, there's all sorts of documentation around something called akathisia that you can seemingly randomly develop.

33:54Okay, nothing's actually random, but nobody is testing for whether or not you are vulnerable to this. So you develop the side effects and you end up with this like unbelievably horrific outcome that is then blamed on your mental illness, but the literature tells a different story It says that it's actually driven by medication. So if you knew even a little bit of what I'm saying before you were like, oh, well, I'll give it a try, you probably wouldn't say, oh, well, I'll give it a try. You'd probably say, what the hell else can I do, right? Like there's got to be something else I can do, not just like sit here and white knuckle my life.

34:29But the other things you can do is what I've, you know, devoted the better part of my career to, yeah.

34:36Kelly Brogan:It's funny that you, it's really funny that you say all of this. I'm not medically trained, so I would never give medical advice, but that's why I don't take meds for anxiety. I did. I was put on meds immediately when I was diagnosed with an SSRI or whatever the term is. And it got worse before it got better. And I'm like, this is insane. Like, this is crazy. I don't feel like myself. And immediately within, you know, I remember calling the doctor and doctors like you have to let it run its course. I'm like, but I feel worse. I don't feel better. So that was it. I think I took it for maybe three to five days, maybe max.

35:10Kelly Brogan:And after that, I was like, there is no way that I am ever taking like, I'll deal with the anxiety, you know, whatever the root of the problem is, because I do as somebody that suffers from extreme anxiety, there's obviously a reason which, you know, I'm very much aware of the reason for it. But I do think it definitely has to do with situation and behavioral, like not behavioral, but situation. And once you get to the root of it, you're able to deal with it. So I can deal with it in a way that is not so extreme. But the medication, and again, I've never come out because I don't have all the medical background to say it.

35:43Kelly Brogan:But that is 100 % why I did not continue taking anxiety meds. And when my daughter was diagnosed with anxiety, the same thing. There was no way I was going to let her take any meds for it because there's a different way to control it. And that's just an opinion because, again, I don't have any expertise to back that up. But that was my experience with it. Same thing, that the meds were not making it better. It was worse. And then side effects. You have angels, you know, that really whispered in your ear because a lot of women, you know, all the women that I ever worked with who were on these meds for 10, 20, sometimes 30 years, coming off those meds is a hellscape.

36:22You know, they were gaslit around the early, you know, adverse effects and told, you know, hang in there or told, oh, that's just your underlying mental illness being activated. You know, one in 23 people who take an antidepressant develop bipolar disorder, right? Does that mean that the antidepressant is what I was taught. The antidepressant is unmasking the underlying bipolar disorder. Or does that mean that the adverse effects of this medication are now pattern recognized as a brand new diagnosis for which you need all sorts of other medications. And here you are on the conveyor belt of polypharmacy.

36:56So yeah, the thing you alluded to that I think is so important is, you know, I wrote in one of my books that suffering ends where meaning begins, right? When you can wrap your experience in personal meaning, it is, you know, integrated into your narrative and it becomes something that you can take ownership over. because when you take responsibility for your experience, it doesn't mean you necessarily have to like love and celebrate it. It just means you're not rejecting and saying no and putting all your life force energy into saying like, fuck this, I hate this, this sucks, like all day long, right?

37:36Imagine how many of us do that with so many things, right? Like from our marriage to our money to let alone our health. And when you can relax that tension, you have the opportunity to shift your perspective. and the shift in perspective will expose to your awareness the way through. There's always a way through and it will be presented to you. And I've watched this be all sorts of things, right? So like from homeopathy to essential oils, to plant medicine, to retreat, you know, there's a way through that is just for you. Divorce. I mean, there's a way through. Yeah.

38:12Kelly Brogan:I think once you come into your truth, I think once you're okay with your truth in who you are, like take medicine out of all of this. But once you're real with yourself, and that's like, you know, that's what I also am divorced. So, you know, by the time I got into my older years, my more seasoned years, and I understand what my truth is, I think a lot of the the fears, the anxieties, they start to dissipate, because you've come into yourself, like you know who you are, you know where you're going. And when you have all this ambiguity over here, that's when everything I think becomes, you know, so cloudy.

38:47Kelly Brogan:But, you know, I can relate that in any aspect of anyone's life. It's living your own truth. And once you find out what that is for you, I think there's a lot of clarity. The path becomes wide open. You don't feel so stuck, you know? Yeah. I would add though, just one little thing that I've observed, which is that getting real with yourself, let alone other people, requires that you learn how to be with shame, right? And to sit with shame and energetic. Yeah. The energetics of shame are so intense that you literally, right. If you think about the feeling of it, it's like this hot inner drain that feels like it could like pull you down into the center of the earth and you kind of wish it would, right?

39:35Like it's, it's the most energetically demanding of all emotional states. And what I found is that there is a level of nervous system regulation and integrity that is required before you can even begin shadow work, before you can even begin truly taking responsibility for your undisclosed motivations and your covert intentions and all sorts of codependent behaviors and the things that you're up to, right? So that's why I've come to believe in like an order of operations. And when I've supported women in resolving chronic illness and coming off of meds, the program, my program, it's like a 30 day lifestyle medicine program, right?

40:20So it's chopping wood, carrying water. It's what the freak to eat, you know, it's what to do when you wake up. It's super basic stuff. But because we have these extraordinary outcomes that some of which have never been published, I got really into publishing these for a period of time. And some of these literally never like I published as far as I know the first Graves disease, which is another thyroid condition, um, you know, recovery without any, uh, you know, radioactive pharmaceuticals or surgery. Right. So, so dramatic stuff. Right. But it comes from this super basic experience of taking responsibility for yourself.

40:56Right. So actually giving a shit about yourself the way you would about like a little baby, right? A newborn baby. So when that happens, you experience a signal of safety. Like all of a sudden somebody's home, the lights are on inside of yourself. And it's the beginning of even having the capacity to respond differently to old triggers. Because if you go into shadow work and inner child work and reparenting before you have a sound nervous system, and you'll know that you do because you're not bloated, you're sleeping well, you know, you don't have aches and pains, right? These are all autonomic nervous system regulated phenomenon, right?

41:38Like these kind of general, don't even get me started with what we're labeling perimenopause, right? Like just these blanket terms.

41:44Kelly Brogan:When did that become a term? Why is it a term? Can we not say this term anymore? Can we not call this, like, is that a real thing? Is that a real thing? Like, I'm very upset about this term. When did this become a real work? Disregulated and mitochondrially dysfunctional and like all the things that we are now normalizing through these general labels the same way that we did in psychiatry. Like it's the same phenomenon, right? It's this impressionistic, dismissive experience of gaslighting a person, a woman in this case, and saying, oh, no, no, no, no, it's fine. It's fine. it's normal. No, it's you're in your perimenopausal state.

42:24Kelly Brogan:I heard that for the first time like a few years ago. I'm like, oh, what? I'm like, is that a real thing? Like, what are we talking about here? You know, you've heard, I've heard it in passing, but now we use it just so dismissively and so commonly. It's perimenopausal. You're acting like this because it's perimenopausal. What is it? What is this? And it's a long duration, right? It's like 35 to like 45, 50. I'm like, what is this? Yeah. Just to encompass and dismiss and normalize like all of these ways that women are living out of sync, out of alignment, out of balance with what they actually need in order to feel safe and well in the world.

43:05Kelly Brogan:What's your, um, so, you know, when we're talking about diagnosing one thing in, you know, I'm always like hesitant to say anything. Cause of course, you know, you don't want to get canceled, but whatever, I'll say it. I feel like the biggest one of the, you know, this labeling or misdiagnosing, and I see it within my daughter's friend group and like around the kids that are, I'm depressed. I have this. Well, I mean, whatever happened to like, no, you have feelings and that's okay. And this over misdiagnosing, I mean, do you think that we're in an error? I know you talked a lot about it, but the over-diagnosing, and it's just become so rampant that everything has a label or diagnosis, everything.

43:48Yeah. I mean, the funny thing about psychiatry is not funny at all, actually. And I trained in New York, right? And I trained specifically at Bellevue Hospital, NYU, where there are 13 locked psychiatric units that we would rotate around. And that's not even including, we also rotated at the VA, at the state prisons. and then at some private hospitals. So NYU is like an empire in New York. So I got a lot of exposure to involuntary diagnosis and psychiatry, right? Because it's the only field, as far as I'm aware, in medicine where you can be diagnosed against your will, right? Which is a reality.

44:27So I want to acknowledge that because otherwise you have to participate in being diagnosed, right? You have to participate in seeking out that label, that hexing that I referenced earlier. And you'd only do that because you want to be validated in an experience of suffering that you're having, which is the most natural human impulse ever, right? And that's why the medical industry has, you know, captured so much of the population is because it preys on the victim psychology that says, poor me, no fair, I hate this, and gives you this like little surrogate experience of empowerment that says, I knew something was wrong with me, I'm right about that.

45:04Right. So absolutely. If you choose not to participate in that, right. Like not to seek out that label, not to go to the expert. If you choose to simply be with your experience, be curious about it and allow that posture towards yourself to lead you to what is actually your way through, it will just be a part of your life experience, right? Like it's just a phase in your life experience and it's not necessarily the beginning of your identification as a patient. But the challenge is that most of us were raised by emotionally immature parents. And we then went on to be emotionally, to some extent, immature parents, right?

45:54And our children then are not equipped to learn how to interact with emotional states from early on. And I'm talking like the most seemingly benign things like telling your kid you're okay when they're crying, right? Like everyone does that. And it's a gaslight and it is non-empathic. It is a reflection of your inability to actually understand what is going on in that kid emotionally, right? So you're guarding yourself. There are infinite examples of emotionally unavailable and immature parents and parenting that is normalized to an extent that then we wonder why, you know, these generations that are subsequent to, you know, these emotionally immature parents are quick to adopt a diagnosis when they don't want to deal with, feel, or interact with their own inner world, their emotions, their mind, right?

46:52Right. And you could even make it more spiritual and soulful. Right. They don't have or want to develop a relationship to who it is that they actually are.

47:02Kelly Brogan:Yeah. And I see it like it's generational, too. You know, you can see it from like your grandparents to your parents to, you know, to where we are raising our own children. But I am curious, how do you feel about child immunization shots? What's your what's your take on the whole? there's a lot of controversy on child immunization shots. Should you, shouldn't you? What's your take on it? Yeah. So this was a member. I was like kind of joking earlier about like certain pharmaceuticals that I began to research when I was generally researching pharmaceuticals after I had resolved my Hashimoto's naturally.

47:39And instead of being like super excited about that, I was like enraged, right? And I like was like felt so betrayed. I felt by the system, the medical system. And I dedicated myself to learning all the lies, you know, that I had been taught. Of course, I started with psychiatry and researched every psychiatric med, but that didn't stop there, right? So my first book is about that. And then my second is about medicine more generally. And, you know, I was compelled to research vaccination when I was pregnant. And what spurred this on is that I had a patient. So, okay, I was a reproductive psychiatrist.

48:22So I specialized, like I said, in prescribing to pregnant women. I had a patient who had a second trimester stillbirth. Okay, I'm sure as a mom, you understand that that is like gotta be top three most traumatic human experiences that are available to a person, okay? And I was prescribing to her an antidepressant. So I was very motivated to do more research into other exposures since I had taken great care and lots of due diligence and very elaborate informed consent to make sure that she knew exactly the available data to support the prescribing of the antidepressant. Anyway, it was the double flu shot season.

49:07And I learned that she had just popped over to CBS, right? With some tech and got the double flu shot, you know, before she had this experience. So again, remember, I was a card carrying believer at that point. So it's not like I was like, you see, I knew, you know, something. So I really was motivated for the same reason that I actually had a natural birth. So I was pregnant at this time myself. The same reason that I had a natural birth with my first daughter is not because I was like, you know, some earth mama. It's because I actually looked at the obstetrical evidence for any intervention.

49:47And I was like appalled. Like, are you kidding me? This is consensus medicine. This is not evidence-based medicine. What are y 'all doing here? And so I was a little competitive too, like, you know, sort of judging.

49:57Kelly Brogan:You're like, if I could do, you know, you want to try a little bit. You're like, I got this. Yeah. It was a lot of that. It was a lot of that. So that was the beginning of my journey. And like I mentioned, I was, I was pregnant. So I was also beginning to research for myself because I was a know-it-all remember, and I wasn't going to take anybody's word for it. And I was going to, and you know, I was very comfortable with pubmed.gov and looking at my own studies and reading beyond just the abstract. And that was the beginning of about, oh gosh, like a 10 ,000 hour journey down the rabbit hole of the untold story of all of these injectable interventions, shall we say.

50:36And that was really what I then went on to become like quite notorious for is being like this big anti-vaxxer or whatever. And, you know, I am really, again, a stand for effective, safe interventions and transparent information. So that's all that I've ever attempted to provide, you know. But I've, you know, I've maintained a pharma-free household for almost 20 years. And we're all doing great.

51:10Kelly Brogan:I've never, ever had a flu shot. I just it doesn't make sense in my head. Maybe I'm crazy, but it makes no sense to inject yourself. And it's I didn't do the covid. I actually I'm lying. I did do one covid thing because I couldn't go on a cruise. And after I did it, I was like, I am never injecting myself with any covid. I just didn't do any of it. And I didn't do it with my kids. In fact, no, I'm lying again. My daughter, they made me do it with her. And the pediatrician was she was like, I cannot believe you out of all people because we needed this vaccination. to, you know, to go on the cruise.

51:43Kelly Brogan:And then we, then we found out that we can finagle the whole thing. Sorry, we didn't do it, but like, it just didn't make sense in my head between the flu shot and the COVID. I was like, this is ridiculous. I never, and we never did it never. And I've never, ever gotten a flu shot ever. There's a lot of dissonance, you know, uh, and, and cognitive dissonance is a very powerful psychological tool, right? Because when you can put somebody in a split reality where something that they're observing is at odds with what they're being told by an authority. They have to resolve that somehow, right? So either they ignore their lived experience, like every mom knows, for example, that you've been around a sick kid and you don't get sick, right?

52:27So how the frick does that work if germ theory is real and contagion is actually a thing and all of that, right? So you have to dismiss your lived experience, sometimes your intuition, sometimes your preexisting beliefs and adopt what this authority and society at large is telling you, or you have to stand for what you believe and suffer the potential, you know, being ostracized or ridiculed or worse, right? Or somehow punished on a social scale. So it's, it's a powerful tool to subdue and really, you know, obligate people to conform.

53:08Kelly Brogan:Yeah. It's a lot. I just remember during COVID ever, my whole family, they were like insane because they live in New York, you know, and every, the whole world thought they were going to die. I'm like, this is ridiculous. Like, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. And I remember like, my mom wouldn't even hug me. I'm like, I'm your kid. Even if I did have COVID. Like I am your child. What are we doing here? What are we doing? The whole world, except Florida, you know, in Florida, we were just chilling over here, but, um, everybody, everybody, they, I'm done. We're dying.

53:37Kelly Brogan:We're dying. If we go in and I'm like, this is, this was so crazy. Like the theory behind it was insane to me. So kudos to you though. It's just funny. Like listening to you, these are my belief systems without any, you know, without any, I've had no feral craning in it, nothing. But I mean, I believe the same thing, like with the medicine and taking, sure, I'll take a Tylenol here and there, whatever. But overall, like I'm, I would say that dependency and I've seen people dependent on things, it just doesn't work out well. So I will try at any lengths not to take Tylenol if I don't have to, you know, or any kind of medication, to be honest with you, if I really don't have to, I just, I just wouldn't engage in it.

54:18Kelly Brogan:Even antibiotics, like I know they're good. Sometimes they work here and there, but But if you take too many antibiotics, it's not going to work either. I've actually, fun fact about me, I've never taken a Tylenol or Advil in my entire life. And it's really just because I know the research on them. Like they're just not that effective and they come with all sorts of shit. Like this is what I'm saying. It's just not a good deal. It's just not a good deal. if these medications were very effective, extremely undeniably effective and not just because you believe that they are, okay, and they came with like a little bit of potential risk, that's one thing.

54:57Like, or it was really clear that, you know, the risks are consistent and, you know, everybody saw them. But instead it's like this murky, like grab bag of potential risks. Some are super severe. I mean, do you know how dangerous Tylenol is? Like probably 5.

55:15Kelly Brogan:I'm not going to take anything. I'll just drink water. If I have a headache, I'll drink water. It's poisonous. And, and, and so you have a grab bag of risks and like really meager, you know, potential benefit. One of my favorites is like Ambien, right? Like sleep meds. Like I would, if I pulled people on the street, most people would be like, well, I'm sure it works. No, it doesn't actually. And the literature actually tells you the story, which is that medications like Ambien give you 15 minutes of additional sleep. However, you think that you slept because you develop retrograde amnesia and you don't freaking remember what happened.

55:55We used to, Bellevue in the ER, we used to see people who got in their cars, did all sorts of crazy shit in this amnestic state, having just taken a routinely prescribed Ambien. So properly prescribed meds are the third leading cause of death, right? Like these are not like, oh, why not kind of things. And again, maybe it'd be worth the risk, the Russian roulette, if they were really effective, but they're just not. And I'll die on that hill because, you know, I love that.

56:21Kelly Brogan:I love how strong you are about it. I love it because you see so many people take, you know, you ever walk in someone's house and they have like all this medicine, like Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and there's like tons of shit in there. You're like, what is this for? I get the supplement thing, you know, cause I, I get the natural supplement thing. I don't love the supplements, but you're like looking around and you're like, what's going on? But here, I'm going to switch gears and do something fun with you. I'm going to name a condition and you tell me disease or adaptation signal. Ready? Oh, I'm going to have only one answer.

56:50Okay.

56:51Kelly Brogan:Major depressive order. Disorder. Yeah. That's an adaptation for sure. It's a response. Generalized anxiety disorder. Also, also a relationship to your own perceived capacity. bipolar disorder that is also so now we're getting more into the deeper fragmentation trauma layers that is an adaptation yeah postpartum depression oh wow i could go on and on about this but all that i'll say is never in human history has a woman ever been alone with a baby before and now it is so normalized that we think you know this is how women are supposed to raise babies and feel good about it and feel fine about it let alone all of the inflammation inflammation that surfaces because of toxic body burden.

57:40So yeah, that is absolutely a label for a normal response to abnormal conditions. Yeah.

57:47Kelly Brogan:Plus your body is morphing and you're watching all of this stuff before your eyes. ADHD in a woman. So yeah, this is one of the most, it's like a huge pet peeve of mine, but it's one of the topics that I find to be the least scientific and evidence-based of all, because this is a, I'll quote Krishnamurti to say that it is no sign of health to be well adapted to a profoundly sick society, right? So, and if you want to call yourself mentally ill because you are responding with inattention to things that are taxing your capacity to attend, right? Like you can do that, but I don't believe that that is a disease.

58:32Kelly Brogan:Yeah, fair enough. I could sit here and talk to you for hours about all of these, all the labeling and the over, I haven't even gotten to insurance with you. What you think about the insurance companies and the drug administration, I'm afraid to even get into it. I mean, I'm in the insurance industry, so I know a lot about the insurance industry and how that works in conjunction to the drug companies and whatnot. But you really have such an amazing perspective. And I love how unapologetic you are about it, regardless of, I'm sure, the trials and tribulations that you've experienced amongst your peers.

59:08Kelly Brogan:But what is next for you? Because I know you have a whole lot of shit going on now. And you have all of these amazing things going on. So what is next for you? Yeah. So everything we've talked about in this conversation is really just, it's kind of like a perma available offering, you know, my books, the protocol is there. Tell your books, all your books. Cause I'm going to go read them. I have a bunch of them, but most of them have this protocol I've alluded to, you know, to help reset your nervous system, um, called vital mind reset. And that protocol is, you know, online it's available. It's got, you know, thousands of outcomes.

59:45It's, it's a vibe.

59:48Kelly Brogan:So that I'm going to get all the links. So they have sure. Um, So that's been kind of like, you know, that's a chapter of my life, I guess, that I have, I guess, in ways, not moved on from, but like that's crystallized, right? Like it's there. And in more recent years, I've been so focused on, you know, the story of woman, right? Like what is it? If I was told a bunch of lies about what health is, like I probably was told a bunch of lies about relationships and what it is to be a woman today. And it turns out it was. And that's a lot of my focus. So a lot of it is around feminine reclamation and embodiment and really supporting women and feeling safe in their relationships with their body, with their money, and of course with their spouse.

1:00:34I've become a real stand for marriage, actually. And that may be surprising given my trajectory, but you certainly learn a lot from your innocent mistakes or maybe even not so innocent. And so I, these days I have, well, I have a live event in Miami in May, May 15th through 17th called Audacious Embodiment, which is so fun. I have, you know, all of these different kinds of embodiment experiences and shadow work and of course dance and sensual movement. and it's only my second time doing this event and it was life-changing the first time. And then, like I said, I have this beauty offer coming out, Beauty Backroom, where I basically support women in a six-month container.

1:01:16I haven't done one-on-one work in, I don't even know how many years, like seven, eight years. And I'm inspired again because I'm so lit up about reverse aging and what it is to redefine, you know, that experience of mid forties and, you know, what we are programmed to believe about ourselves. And so it's basically like, you know, a glow up bootcamp where I, I deliver you after six months into your hot life

1:01:44Kelly Brogan:as a midlife, midlife woman. So I love that. Maybe I'm going to come. I want to do reverse aging. I want to do that. You're looking pretty good already. You got this. Oh my God. You, I mean, really it, your daughters must be so proud of you and everything that you've accomplished. And I I'm like in awe because I am into the not a feminist, but I'm definitely into woman empowerment, women empowerment. And the older that I get or the most more seasoned that I become, it is important for women to know who they are and, you know, know their inner truth and unapologetically just kind of be them and their authenticity.

1:02:19Kelly Brogan:We use that word. So like, you know, we just kind of frivolously use that word authenticity, but it is important as you get older to come into this truth and this being. And I mean, I think you've been doing a great job of that being your own self advocate, as well as advocating for other women. It is important. We live in a society right now that labeling is a huge part of it, especially, you know, drugs, here you go, you have this, here you go. And, um, you know, coming out and speaking publicly that that's not, that's not the way there's a, there's a ton of different ways. I mean, I'm a huge fan of exercise.

1:02:53Kelly Brogan:I think exercise is the cure all be all. I mean, I go to the gym every You know, I have a problem. I go to the gym. I want to do this. I go to I think the gym. I'm sick. I have some fever. I go to the gym. I mean, that's I just think the gym is the cure. I'll be all. I don't know. I'm not a doctor. But I just love that you really have come out and has have publicly stated that, yes, you know, drugs are there. But that's not that's not necessarily the right way. There are so many other chemicals in there, and I've seen it in my own family. People become dependent on drugs, on prescription drugs that were prescribed to them by a doctor.

1:03:24Kelly Brogan:So I'm just glad that you're advocating, like, really a patient advocate. And that's what, you know, that's as a doctor, you have a fiduciary responsibility to make sure that your patients are in the best care, and you are doing that. So kudos to you and all of your work that you've done. It really speaks volumes about what type of person you are and everything that you're doing. Thank you. It's such a pleasure. chatting, having this enthusiastic chat. I know. If we had more time, I'd be, I'm like waiting to go off air to ask you a million questions. But if you watch today's episode with this beautiful, gorgeous doctor, I hope that you guys are, or you women out there are not afraid to speak up.

1:04:06Kelly Brogan:I mean, I think you can see that Dr. Kelly Brogan, no matter what adversity was there, no matter who was saying what she spoke up, regardless of what people were thinking and saying. And I absolutely love that you're not a villain. You're not a villain. So if you are ever teeter tottering between doing, you know, the the acceptable thing or what everybody else wants you to do, I hope that you listen to today's episode, knowing that the good thing or doing the right thing is not a sometimes thing. It's an all the time thing. And if you like today's episode, I urge you to tune in for some more. I don't know if anything's going to be as great as this conversation.

1:04:40Kelly Brogan:But if you did like today's episode, like subscribe, tell a friend, you know the deal. And if you know what, if you didn't like it, unsubscribe. Just make a comment. Tell us what you think. But until next time, doctor, I appreciate you spending some time with me. I wish that we could have more time to talk all about the good goodies and the way that we feel because I have a lot to say. Thank you. Thanks for being on.