The Art of the Table: Max Tucci on Connection and Legacy

0:00My success happened late in life. You know, like I created a book in my 40s. I opened restaurants in my 40s. Before, yeah, I had a successful podcast, but that wasn't like really looking at it as like a career. But my success really came in my 40s. And I'm loving it. You know, it's not time is not a real for me time is an illusion, right? What it really is. It's anticipation. And it's alignment. And we have to be ready for the gifts and the jobs and the careers and the lover and the friend when we get them.

0:52Welcome back to the BILF pod where authenticity trumps authority. Now, if you know New York and you know dining, then there is no way that you don't know Delmonico's. I mean, who doesn't know Delmonico's? Who doesn't know that? So today's guest, without further ado, we got Max Tucci on. He is incredible. So cute, dressed amazing. Welcome. Thank you. I'm so happy to see you. It's a pleasure to be here. Yeah. I'm so excited for our conversation. I know so many people want to know. I always want to know like the, you know, the myth, the legend behind the myth and the myth behind the legend. So we're here on the Bilf pod.

1:29And the first thing I'm going to ask you is, do you know what a Bilf is? A Bilf is a boss I would like to follow. Yes. Yes. Did I get it right? You did. Oh my God. Because people say the craziest stuff. I got the memo. So Matt's is a restaurateur. This, you know, you date back many generations, but also an author. Yeah. Wow. So when do you have time to do all this? In the moment. Live now, right? Live right now. So take us back. So take us back from the way beginning. So that's the takeaway for Delmonico's. We'll start at the top of that. Delmonico's originated in 1827, which means a couple of things.

2:07It's older than the Statue of Liberty. It's older than the Brooklyn Bridge. Fun fact. Okay. It's older than public running water in New York. It's so old that Abraham Lincoln dined at Delmonico's. Wow. And one of my favorite facts, 420 for those that get the joke. um 420 1868 was the first time that women were allowed to dine unaccompanied by men now i love the monaco's even more and it was on 420 a big feast a big luncheon no but so monaco's you know is new york as much as new york as monaco's and it first originated as a bakery and a really cool confectionery then there were the great fires in new york in the 1800s and then And they moved to 56 Beaver Street.

2:50And we've been there since 1837. And so, yeah, my grandfather, a Tuscan immigrant, came to America in the early 1900s, back and forth. They loved coming to New York. And he had a dream that what I call in the book, the Da Monica Way, the Sonia Merriano, the American dream. And he really wanted to be part of New York. My great-grandmother was furious that he wanted to be in the hospitality industry. Yeah, of course. And so he convinced her by buying the building. and he said, I'm not really in the restaurant industry. You know, I'm a landowner. I'm buying buildings. And so he bought the Delmonico building in 1926 and had a speakeasy.

3:27And then from there, the two cheese reigned. That is insane. So it really is New York history. I mean, that really is New York history. Everywhere you go, like you hear the name everywhere and anywhere. I don't even think it's in New York. It's a nation. The Delmonico steak. Yeah, everybody knows. Well, dishes that originated at Delmonico's, Of course, the Delmonico steak, baked Alaska, lobster Newberg. My grandfather created the wedge salad. So there's definitely an influence on how we eat today. And my grandfather and the Delmonico brothers really created the scene in how we dine today. So how did his mom feel when all of a sudden it came out and super famous?

4:07Not only that, but just like New York. How did she feel after that? After the doubt? Well, my grandfather, I just recently learned in 2019 that my grandfather had seven brothers and sisters. I was only told one. So I have this whole new family in Italy that was like an amazing discovery. And so I learned through ancestors and, you know, asking the question, if we don't ask, we don't know, that my grandfather and his one sister, Fene, were like the black sheep of the family. Fene ended up in Argentina. My grandfather ended up in New York. and so the ones that stayed in Italy like envied them because they had that desire and that passion to break free and live their own life that's so crazy how it works out so how my grandmother reacted you know my great-grandmother I'm sure she wasn't thrilled yeah you know especially Italian grandmothers yeah it never changed they're gonna they're gonna go with the mad even if they're not mad they're you gotta go all the way they still breastfeed at like 80 right so what was it like growing up like so here you are you know little kid you're growing up and now you're literally intertwined with New York City.

5:06What was that like for you? So growing up in Delmonico's, like Eloise, right? I'm like Max of Delmonico's. That was my childhood. You know, all I really knew was the restaurant. We traveled. We have a house in Italy, so we traveled. But the restaurant and growing up was a huge part of it. And what was the most exciting, I think, was when my Aunt Mary, who was the Iron Fist, they called her with the lace glove. And without getting so emotional, because she was like my Auntie Mame, she would really sit down with me and make me watch Turner classic movies when they mentioned Delmonico's like we're Elizabeth Taylor in life with father we're going to Delmonico's and it never made sense to me like oh they're saying I go to Delmonico's every day you know and now it wasn't until years later that I'm like this is the coolest thing but growing up in in Delmonico's and in that industry of hospitality it opened my eyes up because hospitality for me really means to be gracious.

5:57Yeah. Right. So we had a very gracious upbringing. I love that. Of course, that's where it starts. You get to know people and you understand people. I think it starts hospitality for everything. You really learn if you want a good first job, hospitality, and that's a great life lesson. That's where it started for me too. And hospitality, believe it or not. And you have to like people if you want to be in the restaurant industry. Absolutely. Like people before you like food. Absolutely. Like really that it's so true. That's I mean, why do you think I do the podcast? It has nothing to do with anything other than my interest with for people.

6:27And you have to, in the restaurant business, especially understand our hospitality in general, how people work. It's a psychology lesson 101 for sure. And you know, it's interesting because I call it my stage now and Tucci, which is on Broadway. My mother's like, your name is finally on Broadway. Right. So it's like, these are stages. A restaurant is a stage. You have a new audience every night and you have to cater to that audience. Yeah. We are so similar. Can you, I really want my name to be really big on Broadway one day. Just your name really big. Does it make You feel so good inside. Tell the truth, is it?

6:56You know, it's surreal. It's surreal. And Delmonico's was always a big name on a building in New York. But to have Tucci, for me, it's not really about me. It's about honoring my ancestors. I love that. So that joy, when I see my father's signature lit up at night, it's a reminder that he's watching over. You're going to make me cry. Me too. I'm not kidding because I lost my dad. You know, I lost my dad when I was very young. How old were you? I was six years old. I was eight. That's real. Oh my God. But it was through meditation that I learned, you know, once we get over, were you angry that he had died?

7:30Was there ever a point? I think it's first, I was six. So at eight, it's a little different. So like six, you're just kind of understanding. I was convinced he was gone to Italy and was going to come back. I swear to you. I had this conversation with somebody else. I always thought he was coming back too. And then when he didn't later on, and I think I always kind of was like, he left, he's coming back. Cause that's what I really manifested. I thought he left. I never really believed it until, I mean, I knew, but you know, like if you're. Well, if we want to really stretch this and take it one step further, they physically, they left.

8:01Yeah. But they were always with us. And so I, for me, it was, oh, Babbo went to Fidencia. He's coming back. But then when you realize they're not coming back, it's like, I was pissed because I had the roles now. I was my mother's husband. I was my sister's father. I was my aunt's brother. So there's those roles that I was given that I wasn't prepared for at eight years old. so I was pissed at him not for dying but for that and then years later I was at an ashram actually in Florida called Kashi Ashram and there was this old train car there on the property and I was there and I was like meditating doing my thing and it dawned I mean I was like talking to my father I'm like you know I was so pissed like fuck you like how could you have died and left me as a child and then with all this shit exactly right now we're like fatherless children right and then in that moment I literally heard this voice saying I died because I gave you your life and I was like what does that mean it was a gift my death was your gift and I realized that if my father hadn't have died you would never have been that I wouldn't have been able to do what I wanted to do and explore my journey so in retrospect his death was really a gift to my life it's so I say this all the time everybody asks me like the greatest turning point in my life and I and that's the first thing I say is the death of my father because it made me who I am today I consult him every day yeah just to give you the answer I'm like just because you died doesn't mean I can't consult you I'm gonna haunt you you're not getting away that easy no it's not happening yeah so let's talk about Tucci so you have this and I heard everybody talks about this the buzz is on the street so let's talk about it a little bit talk about it is that a homage to your grandfather You know, Tucci was a daydream that turned into a reality, right?

9:45And I've always, I believe that if you can see it in your mind, you can create it in your reality. Or it's already created in your reality. You just have to catch up with it. And so when we had reopened Delmonico's in 23, after it was closed for three and a half years, and I'm pausing because I'm like, I just want to make sure that what I'm going to say is like, so accurate with my ancestors and so I wanted to make them proud right and they paved this yellow brick road for me and I could have done two things one is I could have skipped along down that yellow brick road and done nothing yeah or I could have continued to build it so I continued to lay the foundation on those yellow bricks to make the path even longer and so that was really Delmonico's and we had talked about Tucci many times.

10:36I was going to open a Tucci in Florida. Yeah. And, you know, you forget. I was on a book tour. I had just finished the Delmonico Way. I'm now, like, reopening Delmonicos and reimagining Delmonicos for the future. And then I was in Florida, and I say the name not to drop it, but because I have to give the contents of the story. And so I was with Clive Davis, and we were in Miami, and he had chartered a boat, this big yacht for New Year's, and I went down there. And now, mind you, I had just come from, like, a huge book tour that was almost a year. And then from the book tour, it was Delmonico's.

11:06And all of this was happening simultaneously. And I was burning out. Like I physically was burning out. I was exhausted. My mother was worried. And my mother like never worries about me. Like I can go to Afghanistan and she wouldn't hear from me for like three months. And she'd be like, he's fine. You know, but she looked at me. She's like, you need to rest. And I'm like, whatever. And so I went to Florida, took a break. and on December 28th of 2024, no, 2023, the time is an illusion, 2023, I got a call that said we found a space for Tucci. And so I said to Clive, I have to go to New York. And he's like, you're going to miss my big New Year's party.

11:46I'm like, Clive, I just need advice. I promise I'll be back. And I said, what's the advice you give me for moving forward and having another restaurant? And he said, if you do not fall in love with the space, don't do it. Don't do it. Makes sense. So 643 Broadway, I walk in and I literally in the moment I walked in that door, it was like my ancestors were there before me. And they welcomed me. And it felt like I was walking into my home in Italy. So I was like, let's do it. Flew back to Florida. I was like, so what happened? I'm like, I can only tell you and no one else but my mother. We're going to open another restaurant.

12:18Nobody knew. And so. Because this is a big deal, right? This was a huge deal. Right. And there's a lot of pressure too, I imagine. because you already have the name for Delmonico. Now Tucci is there. And I can't mess it up. Yeah, like you got one shot. Now this is the Tucci name. This is my name. Yeah, you got one shot at this. Exactly. And so we took over the lease in January. I flew up and I'm all about doing the work. You know, if you want something done right, be the example. Right, be the example. And so flew up, got to work, rolled up my sleeves. There were nights when I was sleeping on the banquette at Tucci when we were still like doing the renovations.

12:51Can I ask you a question? Like a side note. Like, how do you feel about like picking up trash off the floor or, or like jackhammering? And I'm only right. You have, I feel like you have, if you want to be a real business owner, you have to start there. If there's snobbery, if there's entitlement, if there's any source of I'm better than, then don't do a business. Right. And so for me, it was always the asses you kick on the way up will be the ones you kiss on the way down. Yeah. Right. So I don't mind doing the work. As a matter of fact, it's the work that gets me the most invigorated. Yes. Right.

13:26And so we did the work and we opened March 13th of 2024. Incredible. And no press. Nothing. Nothing. At the beginning, we all kept quiet because I was like, this is going to be bigger than us. It's going to be bigger than us. And, you know, the Tucci name is going to be 100 years in hospitality next year. So this year we're celebrating 99 years of hospitality in New York. and really it's respect and honoring for me the ancestors who did the work and then just being cool and real you know it's like I'm a New Yorker through and through a true New Yorker is cool and real all this like hyper bullshit that people come in with the chip on their shoulder it's like come on at the end of the day I said this recently you know Amber L died and I just was speaking to my friend Melba this morning I'm like girl we're all just walking each other home yeah so it's like let's just have a good time while we're here but you I mean that is totally your vibe and so down unearthed just like you can feel it the authenticity in there i mean just in general the the rest so i just i'm just like trying to like imagine this whole thing so lips are sealed now you have all this pressure because you already have you know an a1 restaurant a plus plus plus plus restaurant 14 000 square feet insane so now tucci comes out yes what was the how how long did it take for the buzz to get out one day of course we opened and it was like florence fabricant from the new york times like had she had we had given her the like the okay to kind of drop that we were doing it yeah and then steve cuso from the new york post wrote move over carbon there's a new italian restaurant in town with the best meatballs the headline huge one-page review the headline was mind your business and so i had emailed mario from carbon i was like there's room for everybody's meatballs in new york so don't they like i had nothing to do with that article and yes i love Steve for writing that.

15:12And then Cardi B came for Mother's Day. And then it was just like organically, we can't, to this day, we've been a year in business, a year and a couple of months. To this day, when I sit at Delmonico's, I sit downstairs, table 38 in the wine cellar. There's a picture of my grandfather and my father at our villa in Italy. And I sit there and I question how the success happens so quickly. I was at dinner again the other night with Clive and he goes, do you pinch yourself every day but you know why it happened no yeah why because it was supposed to it was supposed to it's it's privately i honor my ancestors every day every morning i ask for their guidance i have my three o's every morning i'm like the offers options and opportunities i ask them present them to me like for the highest good of my life and then when i stand in that place i'm like this really has nothing to do yes i did the work but this is all of their work that just mirrored and gave me permission to continue.

16:11You have a purpose that's greater than you. And you're right. I love what you said. You know, you already held Delmonico. That's fine. It was already there. You could have easily been like, you know what? I'm going to do another book tour. The book was bigger than all of this. The book was bigger than all of this. This is your why? Because the book, I was turned down by numerous. When I say numerous, it's more than 10 publishers. And I entertained them at Delmonico's. We had dinners at Delmonico's and I was trying to sell them this book. I had like a top grade agent and I couldn't get a book deal.

16:4315 years I worked on getting this book done. And finally, I was at Delmonico's. I threw a party for a friend and she had written a book called Unqualified Hostess. I do it my way so you could do it yours. And the publisher was Rizzoli and we're in Delmonico's, mind you, in the building that has all of the ancestral energy woven through this space. and the editor the the head of Rizzoli came over to me he's like Max why don't you have a book and I'm like in all due respect you see yes it's true you see it's done for those that are the UC is it just thundered here in New York and it's major um but yeah and so I said the reason I had this ancestral post I pushed I said the reason why I don't have a book is because you haven't published it and I'll take a meeting with you next week and he took the meeting I gave him my manuscript mind you this is after 15 years and he goes I want to see Delmonico's through your eyes as a child I want to see your experience there and I'll give you a deal incredible I went back you know like those greeting cards with like the lady with all the curlers in the hair the mug and the cigarettes and for like one week I sat there redoing the manuscript turned it over and I got a book deal that's incredible and so the book deal and when I was doing the book tour Delmonico's was closed so people were asking me are you going to reopen Delmonico's and so I would say to them, look, I don't know what the future holds, but I know who holds the future.

18:04You. And I said, and if it's meant to be, it will happen. Yeah. But everything you're saying, it's crazy what you're saying because you easily could have been like, I already have a great restaurant. And then you took something, a purpose greater than yours, greater than yourself. You know, you did it for your, and you keep saying it for my ancestors. So you have a bigger why. Honoring. Honoring. To honor. The name. You know, and look, I know many people don't have great relationships with their family. A lot of people love to hate their family more than they do love their family. But at the end of the day, you know, it's like our family does what they know.

18:43Of course. There's a lot of patterns and pathologies that need to be disrupted. And once we can observe that they've been disrupted, we can then honor them. Right? And so we forgive them too. Of course. For whatever you did. In the scheme of life, it doesn't even matter. It doesn't matter. It doesn't come with a book of directions. I say this all the time. Parenting, everybody does what they think they know. Now, by no means am I trying to minimize anyone's experience with their family. Absolutely. Because, you know, we do. We go through trauma. We hold it. Our body has cells that holds onto it.

19:10Once you let it go and you start to forgive and honor. You breathe easier. Yes. You breathe easier. Yes. You take the brunt, the weight, this undying weight that you hold on your shoulders. And once you understand, like people only do what they're subject to do or what's passed down. They don't know. and then when you finally realize it but i just love it how you because i'm very family oriented i love my family and to be able to honor my my dad and my family's name it means everything to me and then for my kids to watch it means everything yeah and hopefully they'll do the same you know i have a niece and a nephew and it's like my dream for them is that they might not have to do the business but that they know who did the business yes and that they can then say their name you know there's a great proverb that says every time we say their names their spirit surrounds us you know and how do we translate that into business simply once i think you honor your ancestors and when you know where you're coming from you can then express your love and passion for an industry more because you know your purpose and then you know where you're going yeah so the demonica way it's not just a book title it's the philosophy can you sum that up give me one good sentence one just like anything that you can think of that i think one sentence minimizes the book because the whole book is really the demonical way is living a life full of grace respect honor and enjoyment that's what the demonical way is it's enjoying life but in grace and in peace and in honoring you know it's fun to be wild and dramatic we've all been through that stage of our life but then there comes a point to realize like life is so much better when it's lived via grace rather than drama and around the table because Jews are like Italians yeah of course I mean we do everything we'll flip the table yeah we will definitely will but we like to come around the table because that's where like every like it's like vomit everything comes out everything comes out then it's done it's single session therapy yeah it's dinners at like Jewish families and Italians dinners sessions are single session therapy it's so true it's an each food shut up and get over it but then you but it's the best times the The most memorable times I could ever think of are around the dinner table.

21:18I agree. And you created that over and over and over, not just for your family, but for all families in New York City and people that come to the restaurant. So here, I, so now, listen, good food is paired with great cocktails. I definitely, we should get cocktails. So tell me, okay, so tell me a little bit. I heard on the street that there's a little cocktail. The streets are spilling the cocktail. They're just telling all the tea over here. You know, I look, my mother always said, never let them see you drink in public, which is the irony. And then she has a great quote that says Delmonica's has served over 100 million cocktails since it started.

21:52OK, which is a true fact. And so when I did the Delmonica way, yes, we have a cocktail. My grandfather had a speakeasy. Right. So we had a cocktail section in the book and then it expanded to like another daydream. And then it was like, oh, do I do cocktails now? And so the book that I'm working on is going to cover cocktails from the Gilded Age, so 1800s, to the age of greed, 1980s. And so it's cocktails really throughout the decades. But also what I love about the book is, yes, there's cocktails. I mean, who needs another cocktail book? But who needs a cocktail book, another cocktail book? What I love is the toast.

22:29So what does toasting mean? Which I think is the new drinking. When we're at a table, we forget to toast our friends. Yes. You know, chin chin. Why do we why do we clink glasses? Right. Because if there's poison in one, you're going to get it, too. Right. And so we forget to, like, be in that moment, again, of honoring. So what is toasting mean? And I think that's really more important than what the recipes and the cocktails are. It's like the Emily Post etiquette to a bar book.

22:55Max Tucci:Yeah. Right. Remember your friends. And I do it often. I love standing up at a table when there's a group of people and like what they think is embarrassing at the moment. But we all love to be, you know, publicly honored. Right. And so to stand up with the glass and tell your friends why you love them at the table. And I think that's really important, you know, and so it's going to be history, of course, and how cocktails were made and why they were made. And then the history of toasting. I love that. I mean, you are like, I feel like you're like a male version of me. I love to stand up at the table.

23:24When's your birthday? October. Okay. February. Your February. Yeah, I'm a Libra. Aquarius. Yeah. Everything like, you know, you wear your heart in your sleeve as a Libra. Yeah. So, but yes, that's exactly me. You know, it's honoring right in that moment. I wish I lived more in the moment. I think that's a big thing that society misses in general, but. The key, and this is in business too, the key to being in the moment is remembering that where we are right now is exactly where we're supposed to be. Yeah. And that could be through a trial. That could be through a tribulation. That could be through a celebration or a joy.

23:54That could be in traffic, right? If we're in traffic, be still in that moment and remember that where you are right now is exactly where we're supposed to be. And in that moment is where we find like that exhale. Yes. Where you can breathe. Right? Where you can just, the intake is beautiful. But when you exhale and you can exhale remembering that you're like at peace, it can turn any argument in the work field into like peace. That's so nice. So we are the creators of our reality. I'm like exhaling as you're speaking. Everyone exhale together. You're like making me feel like very at peace right now.

24:30So let me, I know you have a huge handle in, you know, in the restaurants and sometimes there are way too many cooks in the kitchen. So how do you kind of like navigate through that? The navigation, and this isn't just cooks in the kitchen. This is. In life. Everyone. This is the kitchen. This is the office. This is at home. All of us, no matter who, where's the camera? My camera's here. There you go. No matter who we are, we all want one thing. Do you hear me? Do you see me? And do I matter? I love that. So when there's too many cooks in the kitchen, there's no such thing because together we rise, right?

25:05And we just want validation. So when there's that chaos, it's because someone's not being validated. They're doing their work and we're not noticing it. So how do we calm the storm? By validating them. I see you. I see your hard work. Yes, it's hot in this kitchen. Yes, we're all busting our ass. But I want you to know, thank you. And so in that thankful moment is when everyone, you bring the peace. You bring that exhale. Yes. And so, and that relates to anybody. Yeah. You know, no matter if you're the CEO, no matter if you're the sous chef, the executive chef, the bus boy, the owner, do you hear me?

25:39Do you see me? Do I matter? People just want to know that they matter and they're not just another person. And their work matters. Yes. And what they're doing. So for me, I have a question for you. Yeah. Oh, sorry. Then I'll, then I'll, so what's really important to me in my organization, I have tons and tons of agents, insurance agents, but I want to know everybody's name. That's really important to me. So how important is it for you when you walk into the restaurant knowing everybody's name from the busboy to the runner? I mean, how important is that? Not only is it important, but it also is that validation.

26:10I know you. I know you. There's a movie that just came out called Straw. It's a Tyler Perry from a movie. I just saw it. I downloaded it. No, I downloaded it. It's my plane. It's on for the point back. I'm not going to give it up for those who haven't seen it. Bring yourself some Kleenex. But there's a moment, Sherry Shepard's character, who says to Taraji P. Hanson, i know you and in that moment when you're saying someone's name chills i know you right and here's where i like to take it one step further because that's also the demonical way it's taking it one step further is how's your family i always ask them how's your family can you explain why that's important i talk are you like a leadership trainer too because this is great like how do you know all these things it's called it's hospitality you have to know you can't just know about them You have to know about their spouse, their family.

26:56You have to, their kids, everything. Well, again, when you're asking someone, how's your family? You're acknowledging them for more than just an employee. I see you. Yeah. They're your family too. Look, I get to sit here and be on the show and be like, oh, you know, let's drink from these fancy mugs and have a wonderful, you know, environment and a great space. Meanwhile, they're the ones there right now prepping, getting things ready. You know, they're prepping my stage. So I want to honor them. I want to respect them. I want to know genuinely about them. Yeah. And it's selfless. And it's so easy to be selfless, right?

27:27It doesn't cost a dollar. When you just ask someone, how are you? How was your day? How's your family? You know, it's the simple things where we could like, life is really beautiful. La bella vita, right? La vita bella. However you want to say it, it really is. But we just have to take those moments to acknowledge. Yeah, because we get so caught up in the hustle and bustle. But if you just take a moment and people, that's it. It doesn't cost money. It doesn't cost money to ask how you're doing, to even give a hug or just let them know that you're there. And the hustle and bustle isn't real. Yeah.

27:59That's all the facade. That's an energy that's created because you're not acknowledging. It's absolutely true. That's, of course. It's just because how many times do you get busy? I'm busy all the time, constantly. But how hard is it to shoot a text or just turn around and say something endearing? It's not hard. It doesn't cost anything, does it? No. It's so easy. It's easy. It's profound. It's humanity. That's insane. My next question, you already answered it though. I was going to ask you, but you already answered it. It's like you, your voice resonates above the kitchen. Like it resonates with like, when did you finally, well, I know you grew up like that, but when did you realize these small things mean so much?

28:36And you know what it makes, I'm sure that's why the family legacy has gone as long as it's gone. I'm telling you, it has to, because you take a piece of home with you every time you walk out of the house and every, and all these little things is what's helped you. I mean, not only develop another amazing restaurant, but to continue the legacy of your ancestors. So when did you realize like, this is really your calling? It goes back to, I think when I first said mama, when my mother acknowledged me as a child, when I called out for her and she was there, that's when my voice was heard first. That first cry that we have of welcome to life.