How Artists Can Shape AI Before It Shapes Them w/ Imogen Heap

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1:18Learn more at windows.com slash student offer. While supplies last, ends June 30th. Terms at aka.ms slash college PC. When AI becomes the next pop star, who gets the spotlight? The artist or the algorithm? You might have caught recent headlines about so-called AI artists or artists that heavily rely on AI tools like image, voice or music models to make their songs. There's one artist, Zania Monet, for example, who recently signed a record deal and is climbing the gospel charts and is playing on radio stations across the country. Meanwhile, last week, a bunch of songs in the top 10 on the country sales chart were also songs that stem from this kind of AI artist.

1:56At a time when AI-generated songs seemed to be exploding, cropping up everywhere from TikTok trends to the Billboard charts, it felt like the perfect time to dive into how this will impact artists and what can be done to protect human creativity in the process. And I couldn't dream of a better guest to join me here today to discuss this topic than Imogen Heap.

2:21Welcome back to On The Record, a music business podcast from Billboard and Sickford Productions. As always, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and I'm thrilled to have Imogen Heap on the show today to talk about the rise of generative AI and how it will impact artists. Imogen is a multi-Grammy winning singer, songwriter, producer, engineer, and technologist who has been making music for over two decades now. And it's clear that she still is somehow a few steps ahead of the rest of us. we will unpack this growing AI phenomenon and what these tools mean for the future of creativity. As Imogen herself recently put it, the genie can't go back in the bottle.

2:57And after years of research and development, she's finding ways to use AI ethically within her own artistic practice. There are really few artists that understand the intersection of music and technology quite like Imogen. Her latest singles, I Am and Afterlife, for example, both use her regular singing voice and this AI voice model, which is trained on hundreds of hours of her own singing, which she calls AI Mojin. She's also been hard at work developing oracles, a system designed to help artists manage their IP in an age of AI where deepfakes and training models on music without permission is very commonplace.

3:31We'll also touch on the 20th anniversary of Imogen's influential album, Speak for Yourself, which she released at another time of great change in the music biz. Back then, CD sales were down, MP3s were taking over, and almost no one was having an easy go of it. But still, Imogen managed to release the project independently and to great success. Today, the album is considered a modern pop classic, and ever since, she's gone on to serve as an inspiration for music's biggest stars, including Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, Olivia Rodrigo, Pink Pantheress, and yes, even Jason Derulo, in the years since Speak for Yourself's release.

4:09All this to say, I am very, very excited for our conversation today. So let's go ahead and bring her in. Imogen Heap, thank you so much for coming to On The Record. I'm so happy that you're here virtually from London. Thank you. Very happy to be here. Where did you just fly in from? You were just on a plane like two hours ago. I was coming from Lisbon, a lovely city. It was actually torrential rain. I didn't know if I was going to get back here because the thunder and lightning last night was so incredible. I thought that there was somebody like going over my hotel room with a massive car or a big train or something, but it just turned out to be thunder.

4:40um so yeah we might have but we've stuck a long way forever which is why i'm late there's nothing worse than trying to get back quickly from the airport so i really appreciate you still being able to make it um i'm really excited to chat because i think that you are one of the artists that really just has been keeping your finger on the pulse of what's going on in the world of like cutting edge technology generative ai all that stuff and so that's one of the things that i report on at billboard it's become a huge focus for me over time so but before we get into that kind of a chat um I wanted to kind of throw it back to the beginning of your career when you're getting started what were some of the technological tools in your studio back in the day that really inspired you well I didn't have a studio in the beginning because it was very expensive to have studio um but I I did have a keyboard I had an it's an N-Sonic TS12 which I still love um and I did have access to computers so when I was 12 I started learning on uh an old Atari and they had some software on there at school that nobody knew how to use and uh it was in like this cupboard it was like it's basically like the naughty cupboard um but I I realized data in life that my head the music teacher was just kind of being nice to me he's going just getting the cut but he knew that I just wanted to like make music on the computer so that's that's when I started realizing that oh wow there's something in this computer thing that's like helping me be more than I can with just writing it down on the paper and hoping that an orchestra might play it one day which they never would um well they did eventually haha um so yeah it was like computers and then when I was 15 I went to the Brit school I was a second year in it's like this school in the UK which lots of musicians go to because it's the only one of the only schools like it um and that's when I learned to use Cubase um so I did know my way around studio but I didn't have that much equipment I had a QI70 uh but that was a bit later that was like when I was 21 so I could make little beats on that do you think that like technology has always inspired you to start writing or what do you think usually kickstarts the songwriting process for you it really is more about time like what am I doing any musical instrument anywhere or if there's any time where it's like oh actually I could be doing music now then it really doesn't matter where I am I can make music out of anything and I think it is really about just feeling calm and excited and like there's not a lot on your back right now and that the sense that you actually might have time to finish something or even just manage to do a verse or even if you did capture something I'll I have to support this fun little, it's called the drone machine and it's made by stylophone.

7:22And I love it. And I spent four hours just like noodling around on it on the plane the other day. But I didn't have a way to record it into my iPhone. So, and I didn't bring my laptop. So, yeah, there's just, it's right now it involves lots of steps to just kind of clear the area to make me, enable me to just actually put something down. But most of the time it's a notepad. I just write all the time in my little notepads. or in my notes because when I was younger it was a piano um it was a piano or it was a cassette player um and I would just come up with something but now life is different very hectic there's so much stuff going on there's little peace so it's just little scraps of things really here and there um and like this little stylophone thing's really cool interesting so I want to get to AI Mojin oracles and the Mimu gloves but before I get there I am very curious like when was the first time that you realized that generative AI was going to be very impactful in music um I don't know I think it like weirdly crept up on me the first time I did any generative anything was with a human called Rob Thomas and this was about 15 17 years ago and he wrote code for apps and he had there was this brilliant app basically would take the world around you and it would synthesize it in harmony so if you're on the train it would kind of have resonant frequencies of everything and then it would just sound all in time and in tuned um RJDJ that's what it's called and there was all these different scenes and they were really great anyway I loved it so much I reached chasm and was like can I speak to somebody there and then he came around and we did this experiment where he would he would personally analyze the way that I improvised and then he created a little program so they could generate music um in the style of the way that I played piano so he was just like you know mentally um creating a little algorithm as a human as kind of a portioning kind of procreating what he thought was me um and it just kind of occurred to me wow that'd be so useful to be able to just like start improvising and then the piano continues on without me and then I can kind of jam kind of with myself but like a one step removed but it's still kind of me and so I always was I was really inspired by that and that started a song called Runtime because we were going to make a running app out of it that would like work to the rhythm of your of your running and everything and I think that that's a total thing now um but we wanted to we wanted to explore with so it was yeah about 17 years ago but I suppose the way that I feel now it's impacting is just everybody's terrified that's not true not everyone's terrified I'm not terrified I'm just aware that even not just even music everything everything uh is is being turned upside down and it's not all a loss uh there are many things that we can do to mitigate it and to set the standard to to make things better for us in the future by getting things right now and I'm excited about the aggression I do see it as a kind of evolution of us as people and I'm excited to with all the possibilities that could happen I don't know if I go on and talk about that for about four hours but I felt like only really everywhere else I felt the big change in the last two years really but I've been doing like AI judging of AI music competitions for about I don't know.

10:52I've been asked to do that like three or four times over the last 10 years. And there was a sudden like jerk basically of like, oh, wow, this sounds completely amazing compared to what it is then. And, you know, that is incredible. You know, the shift that really happened over a year, basically. I feel like for me, when I noticed a huge shift was I started reporting on AI music and it was just like they could generate kind of a shitty but passable instrumental. But then when Suno came out and you could really generate everything at the click of a button and it sounded pretty convincing. And increasingly, it's gotten even more and more convincing.

11:30That's when I really felt like, oh, wow, it's suddenly here. It felt like just a moment when things really did shift. And it's interesting that we're talking this week because it feels like right now a lot of these so-called like AI artists, which I don't know how I feel about that term. But there's a lot of people who are using AI tools very heavily in their creative process that are now actually seeing some level of success from it. Because I think at first it was maybe a creative experimentation, but they weren't rising up the charts or they weren't trending on TikTok or getting a lot of streams.

12:07But now we're starting to see that with like Zania Monet. She has made a lot of headlines recently. I'm wondering for you as these kind of heavily AI generated projects start entering the marketplace alongside human made works. Do you think that these things should be treated similarly in terms of what royalties they make, what opportunities they have? Or do you think there needs to be some distinction between AI works and human made works? And all the gray in between. Yeah. Yeah. And then all the gray in between. yeah for sure and i do think we need to have a way to identify in some form however little or granulated that can be right now um but we definitely need to build the the layer that allows the humans to show their input and to be verified by other humans as that is that person's work and because you know i trust this person who trusts this person and that's what we're doing which we might talk about later with oracles um it's just a place for a human to say this is me these are my works and these are the people that i work with these are all this is all the contextual information around this this piece of music and how i made it and the instruments and whatever it is whatever we want to find out um and creating this wealth of information that the the future and now industry can build on so until that happens we are still kind of floating around in midair because we don't even have the bedrock of understanding, even right now, as we're still in this kind of traditional music making way, of identifying human work even now.

13:41And that's one of the main problems. Yeah, that's something that I've been encountering in my own reporting is people will come to me and they'll say, hey, this song is AI generated. And I'm like, I don't know for sure that it is AI generated or if it is fully human made. And I think AI detection tools still have a long way to go. And I'm really, really hopeful that there's some strides made in that because right now it's one of those, it's almost like a guessing game and you'd hate to accuse someone of using AI or say an AI work is human and have that be completely wrong. But like you were saying before, there's like such a gray area in the middle.

14:18When we talk about or we see headlines about AI songs or AI artists, this can be anything from something that is fully generated just using a prompt and then the human steps back or it could be something where it's mostly human made but there's just an ai vocal that's incorporated kristen actually i just want to butt in because you said then about mistaking uh human music for ai music and actually embarrassingly i did that the other day and i felt really bad about it so i discovered this artist um when i was listening to a playlist and i discovered this playlist because of my new favorite artist called Blauen which I know I'm a bit late in the day but I just love this record that he's done so it recommended you know go listen to this other stuff so I found this long playlist I listened to loads of stuff I was like oh quite like made a load of notes on this plane journey but one of them was that this artist called Data Cluster and I was like wow this really sounds like Max Cooper and John Hopkins like it really really does like I I was really suspicious um And I looked up on the biography about this person and it just said music made with errors or something like that.

15:26And I was like, this is very suspicious. And then I looked this person up and I did actually find a person behind it. But I thought, ah, but that could be a ruse. It might not be real. Anyway, I found that Instagram page and then I followed them. And this person was like, oh, my God. Hey, is this real? Are you real? I love your music. And I was like, are you real? Yeah, I was going to say like both of you are. Because I just said this record that you've done, I absolutely love it. Like I'm really, really enjoying it. But I can't help feeling how similar it is sometimes to Max Cooper and my friend John.

15:58And he was like, oh, thanks so much. They're my biggest heroes. That's like the best thing you could have ever said to me. And I was like, no, and I don't take this the wrong way. But did you create a model that kind of, you know, mashes them up together and then generates them and kind of did stuff over the top? He was like, absolutely no way. I can show you the stems. I can do this. and fair enough he got like you know a bit offended um but it has got to that point where we can recreate things and honor people and uh and we do all the time it's sometimes without knowing it we just we go oh we've come up this idea and actually it was something that somebody else did but you just forgot about it and you thought it was an original idea um and it happens all the time so i'm quite yeah i we definitely are that place where it's very confusing right now and we do need some clarity but we are we can do it there are there are tools and everybody wants it so I feel like the silver lining really of this dark cloud as some might see it as AI music taking over um is that we are going to get the data layer of works we're going to get this complete data layer of works because people will want to prove not only that they're human but they want to go they want to actually just say you know I'm human and these are all of my works that I actually contributed to even if I'm a mixing engineer or whatever it is so I feel like you know this panic in uh you know how are we gonna how are we gonna um know what's what is also going to empower us to just do what we've needed to do for like 100 years I recently spoke to someone at Hallwood Media which is signing AI artists they've signed this Zania Monet um artist which has gone pretty viral in recent weeks.

17:37And one of the things that they said is because Zania is backed by a real person who essentially writes poetry and then uses Suno to help complete that poetry into a song, they record or they have her record herself making her music so that if anyone ever has questions about it, they can actually show like, here's exactly what she did. Here's exactly what AI did. I could kind of see that being something that becomes a thing in the coming years of just trying to create a log of here's what I did. Here's what I did is that increasingly becomes part of the creative process. But I do want to go back to that point about Hallwood signing AI artists.

18:17They're the first label that has been pretty public about doing this. I'm wondering, in the coming few years, do you anticipate that this will become a thing where major record labels are signing AI talent or talent that heavily uses AI? And how do you feel about that? Do you think that that's right? I think lots of things when he said that. I feel like a lot of major labels are signing music that sounds AI generated to me anyway. It's just like, oh, that just sounds like that last thing and that last thing. Nothing's changed. So it doesn't surprise me at all that that would happen. And wherever there's money, obviously they'll go if they think they can make money out of this artist.

19:01I think right now it's exciting. It's like it's such a nascent space, exciting kind of beginnings where it still sounds a bit AI and it's like you're not quite sure. That will soon disappear where you absolutely can't tell. I actually love these early beginnings where the voices just sound like they're jumping around or the performance of the voice isn't quite right. And the diction, the way they say things and the accents is all funny. I really like that. I'm kind of going to miss that. When AI and humans create music that we never could have expected, you know, that just like really we just wouldn't have gone there.

19:37Because you couldn't really imagine mashing that thing with that thing because it would have taken so long to do it with a band, with a fit. I don't know um that we'll just be able to iterate and hear things differently and it will just it will it will really just like make us hyper creative so I'm excited for the music that's going to come and the people that are going to mash and hack hack these systems together to create like weird kind of weird sculptures with small heads and but music um because why not like we're not really we're not really pushing the boat out a lot um and I really think we need to and I I think we'll go through this boring phase of people just mimicking what we do.

20:16And then once we got over that, we will create music that's really astounding and exciting. But it will be a complete cross between us. What you just said earlier really reminded me of a quote from Brian Eno, who I'm going to butcher it. I don't know it off the top of my head. But he talked about how after a technology gets really good, people start to have a fondness for whatever the quality of it that everyone criticized. when it first came out. I mean, early photography and film did not look good. There was a grain on it. It didn't look totally real to life. But after a while now, we're adding film grain onto things to make it kind of emulate that style.

20:56I think it'll be interesting to see what people think of like looking back on, I guess, like 2021 AI generated images where like the hands are all messed up and they have different fingers that are not right. But yeah, it'll be fascinating. but I wanted to go back to something that you've referenced before you said um that even like you know 15 years ago you were working with AI to try to create an algorithm that mimicked the way that your creative process worked and now I was using a human I was using a human to do it using a human to do it okay yeah yeah but it was the beginnings of this generative idea that you can extend yourself beyond just your human capacity yeah you can create a code that will emulate you and beyond Yes.

21:40And so now, like you've recently released a 13 minute song called I Am, which also has a beautiful visual that goes along with it. And in that song, it's not just you singing. It's also AI Mojin, which is your essentially digital self or your AI self. So can you tell me about what AI Mojin is and why you think that that is an interesting creative interplay to essentially collaborate with yourself? Well, I don't think the way that I've used A.M. Edge in this song is particularly creative. It's kind of a very long-winded, kind of silly way around of doing things. But I did it as a statement. And I did it to rile people up, I suppose, and just be able to have this conversation.

22:22Because the song, in the beginning, it takes you through this journey, really, of what I've experienced over the last four years. I recognised, I was starting to think about, who am I? What am I? what you know this ego what is it what's stressing me out like what is it when you get rid of all of that in just in breath or in silence or in the noise what's there and then I started to think about AI because um what is what is that that that AI isn't um what can what can I feel that is something that an AI can't feel and I kind of got down to these like bits these tiny bits and so the noise section in that song is like the annihilation of my ego.

23:08I'm not saying I haven't got an ego. So then I needed aftercare after that. I love this idea that AI is our child. AI is something that we are raising together as the mother and father, as the adults raising this child. And what a mess we're doing of that. And, and right at the end, there's this, there's the AI voice of Mojin. I wanted it to be an AI voice, even though I had to sing everything. And so I sang all the parts and then I put it through my AI model, so that it's the model of my voice that's then singing the words rather than my actual voice that I sang. But the melody of it and all the, you know, inflections and all of that is me.

23:53But the sound, it's like changing the sound on a, on a keyboard. Yeah, so it's like putting a filter on top of it in a way. So you still had to do the act of singing. Yeah, I had to do singing, but it's like changing out the sound for another sound. So it could have been a trumpet. And I wanted to trick people, you know, into going after all of this music, after all of this, like, quite traumatic noise section, that they would feel something. And that voice would not be my voice. It would be A.I. Ogin's voice. I wanted to create the discussion. I wanted to, you know, show people that we already don't know.

24:27but does it matter you know um I mean I say in the in the title it's AI Mojan um but it was all ethically sourced it's all done in the best way possible and it's my own voice and I didn't use any I didn't generate any music of course everybody has already uh some people have already cancelled me for you know even talking or saying that AI is in my music so many of them are I can't believe Imogen I'm never listening to music again you used AI to generate this song I was like no I did not I wish that I could have done it because it took me four years to do it with a hundred thousands of hours. Anyway, so my point is that everybody is fearful of it, but we can still feel, you know.

25:08And what is art, you know, art is something to someone but not to somebody else. But if essentially it speaks to you and it makes you feel something, does it matter? If it makes you recognize something in yourself. I mean, essentially all AI is generated from human work. And I think that what we'll end up with over time is the AI models that we do rely and live with will teach us that we don't need anything else. We don't need this capitalist, horrible world that we have got to the extreme of. We just need each other to be kind to each other for community, to care about, you know, we don't need happiness out there.

25:51It's not something we can buy, a Porsche, it's not going to make us happy. Um, you know, so the voice right at the end of the song is actually my daughter's voice. And she's the she has the last word. And that is to say that, you know, AMOgen, Scout, AI, they're our children. And we need to take care of them. And we need to do a good job of showing them how to do things the way that we would like them to be done, not how we're currently doing a lot of things. That's so fascinating. I mean, I love that you've been able to make this model with AI Mojin that is totally within your control. So you can do with it what you like.

26:30I think the thing that gets scary is when, you know, anyone can manipulate or find anyone's voice model online or train a voice model based on interviews that people have done in the past and just run with it. I'm wondering, in an age of AI, I wonder how artists will continue to self-curate. I think such an important part of being an artist is having the taste and the curation to know what you want to say. What songs you want to put out, what songs you want to keep for yourself, what interviews you want to do, what things you don't want to do. In an age of AI, it feels like you're losing a lot of control over yourself.

27:08Do you have fears around that? I mean, we already have lost control. People misquote us constantly, you know, say that we've written something when we haven't. Don't credit us when we have been a part of it. that's still very much there so I do actually think this is going to really it's just going to it's going to force us into creating something that will make sense of what we have already for and for the future so that we can put a flag in the sand as humans and go okay up to this point um it was human generated and then there was like this blurry space and then we figured it out and now you can really discover what is what um I I'm excited because I like I have you other people have also used my voice um there's an artist called barretta who's uh created a great dance track with it and there is um an artist called lucy hayes done a really amazing song with it too and you can go to uh i have a profile on the dsps as ai.mojin and you can see the songs that she her voice has sung on including my voice uh including my song um but the nice thing about that is as i say you have control uh again i think it just comes down to this like core missing piece that we don't have, which is an ID layer, like identifying home for each individual that I think we'll just have in time anyway, just as much as there's one physical version of you in the world, even though we'd like there to be more of us.

28:26And there's one of me, but there's no digital one version of me somewhere that I own, that I can, that anyone in the world can go to, to find de facto information about me, you know, up to the minute if they need to, so that I can express whatever I want to express in like a kind of umbilical core to anything that I might be connected to in one instant from one place. I want to be able to do that. I'm wondering, how are you seeing some of your peers use AI in their musical process that inspire you? Is there anything interesting you've seen recently? I'm not seeing any of my peers doing any music with AI.

29:03Maybe I've got, I don't know, I just feel like all my friends, they're just like we just make music the way we always play music um I'm really interested in developing Rogaine to the point where I can jam on stage with her where she can train off my music and she can continue like say if I because I really do want to do this like I don't want to slave away in front of the computer and make tracks like I am for the rest of my life I don't want to do that like I really don't want to do that I would love to find ways to speed up the process but not take away any of the creativity and there are many things you do in the studio or to prepare plugins or you know that you can clean up and you can help ai could help you do some of that admin or help you identify things that could be similar sounding that you could pull in without having to go through all the presets i mean there are already things that do that i mean splice i'm pretty sure i started to do that i'd say that very few artists i mean I know that, is it Timberland that's like a lot on Suno?

30:02Yes, yeah. And he's like very, you know, advocating. That's the sound of zero sugar, 200 milligrams of caffeine, and the power to burn body fat. Storm, energy for life. Storm Energy Blend helps boost metabolism, which in combination with exercise and a healthy diet helps burn fat. This product alone does not produce weight loss. Individual results may vary.

30:25This summer, serve up the cookout classics. Heinz ketchup and Kraft singles. Every good burger needs a layer of perfectly melty cheese and thick rich ketchup. We all know it's not a cookout without Heinz and Kraft. And I understand it. It's fun. It's like, it's super fun. And it is hard not to go there. I had a play. You know, I have had a play. And I was like, well, hold on a minute. That's actually really cool. Like I actually might use that. But you have to stop yourself because I do have, I do want to create standards that allow for musicians to be recognised for the work that they've done, that these streaming service, these AI models have learnt from and hoovered up, but are not in any way caring at the moment, seemingly, about how to solve that problem.

31:15And I really want to spend my time helping to solve that problem, helping to contribute to, you know, attribution for musicians of the past and the now so that they see themselves in these feature models if they want to and if they don't, fine. One of the things that I've heard from AI companies before is that they foresee a time when pretty much everyone makes music. One person even said to me once that, you know, back in the day, we could have never foreseen that people would go from, you know, if you wanted to get your family photographed, you'd have to go to a photographer who's a professional and had the camera sit down with them at a special place.

31:54But now we just take photos on our iPhone. and this person was saying that they foresee a time when everyone just gets to make music it's not something reserved for musicians anymore I guess great what's wrong with that yeah yeah I'm wondering what your thoughts are on like the the barrier to entry lowering so that everyone could feasibly do it I really why not so if you've spent many like 10 ,000 hours whatever perfecting your craft you always have an edge um you know whether you're if you generate anything off these you know services right now you're just going to sound like 99.9999 % of other things that do that too but if you have an edge if you have a real something there that connects with people and you use it differently and you go a little bit further out of your way and you create something that's genuinely astoundingly good then that's great that's really good that helps everyone move forward I don't have a problem with that at all like I said everyone takes way to ask everyone's top where we can all put filters on it and clean it up and the other thing is like why should music just be reserved for those who you know have an emphasis to like computers and programming and lessons if you need it and you know all time and whatever money I don't know but I mean because initially um we all used to sing but we sang before we spoke um we we had songs that we would sing and we would dance and we could move our bodies and we felt that was just the way we expressed ourselves and now we're just scared to sing um so I think this is great you know if it helps us connect with our creative inner selves um and allows us to feel more at peace with ourselves because there's something that's you know really connecting because it feels great to make music um then I am definitely for it 100 % I've got no issues with it uh if anything it's just gonna what needs to happen which will happen in tandem with it is much better discovery tools to help people see through and hear through the noise because it is ever so much harder to find the good stuff out there as there are many many many uh issues well there's that you don't really know if you're listening to ai generative music at the moment on on these platforms i have come across hundreds of uh generative versions of headlock um and other songs that i've done that are definitely not human uh or largely not human creators as they come up quickly um and you look at the profiles and you try and find out and there's it all kind of disappears and it's all like one label and nobody really knows and then they disappear and you know it's just like oh was it there at all um so there's definitely like weird stuff going on already and who knows who's benefiting from that, you know, the top level, who knows.

34:45So it is just a mess. And I think it's good because it has been a mess forever. And now it's just really showing the problem. One of the interesting things that I've been thinking about in terms of AI music is it certainly speeds up the process. So we're going to get more music, especially I think we're going to see more music ending up on streaming services. Right now, we already have 100 ,000 songs being added every day. You know, if we put AI aside and we look at a few years ago when it was still a similar number of just a mass amount of music coming into the services every single day, a lot of that music is from totally DIY artists.

35:20I think the revolution of DIY brought forth a ton of music. But, you know, for the most part, most people aren't listening to most of it. Some of it's not very well done, and that's okay. You know, they've released it. It's a passion project, whatever. but you know algorithms allow us to navigate through the hundred thousand songs that are there on Spotify every day and so as AI comes in I think it'll just accelerate that process we'll definitely have even more songs but this is not a new problem we already have a lot of songs to sort through so it just has to get smarter and better. I think what we're going to be able to wrap into it is the story of the song so right now the algorithms are like pitch and tempo and timbre and like maybe lyrics or dynamic range or that kind of stuff that it's creating algorithms for us to go oh you might like this um but you might want different ways to search you might discover that you like you know a particular producer you know and if you're lucky you might i don't think you can search via producer at the moment on streaming services but you can search obviously through artists but you can't you've just about started to be able to search through composer um but you still have to be registered in a certain way not everyone's allowed to be a songwriter composer i've only i'm just allowed to be one even after how many 30 years i've been doing it um so there's it's not even at the basic stuff isn't isn't sorted you can't search through drummer or um you know mixing engineer um but you might discover if you could that uh you actually actually the reason why you love these songs is because of the arranger or is because of the particular way somebody plays a string instrument that kind of inspires the rest of a song for someone.