How Christian Music Became Big Business w/ Lecrae

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0:39Select plans only. Restrictions apply. Powered by fiber. Connected to the premises by coaxial cable. Actual speeds vary. There's no one like you, and there never will be. From the producer of Bohemian Rhapsody, there are many legends, but there is only one. Michael. Rated PG-13. Christian and gospel music is going through a serious boom. According to Luminate's latest report, Christian gospel has risen by 25 % from 2024 to 2025, making it the second fastest growing genre in America behind rock. New superstars like Forrest Frank, Brandon Lake, and others are making faith-based songs cool for a TikTok generation, and the mainstream music business is starting to cash in.

1:22My guest today to break down Christian music's rise is Lecrae, a Christian artist and rapper who's witnessed the genre's evolution throughout his two decades of releasing hit songs. I'm going to ask him today, how did the Christian and gospel business get this big? And what makes the space distinct from about every other genre in music?

1:46Welcome back to On The Record, a music business podcast from Billboard and Sick Bird Productions. As always, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and today we are breaking down the Christian music business and its major boom with the one and only Lecrae. A four-time Grammy winner and founder of his own label, Reach Records, Lecrae felt like he was the perfect person to pull in for this conversation to talk about the Christian music industry because he's in this rare position where he's both a beloved creative and a businessman. Since he released his first album, Real Talk, in 2006, Lecrae has been a mainstay celebrity in both Christian circles and hip-hop circles.

2:19And 20 years in, his work is often cited as the inspiration for the newest generation of faith-based talent. Like I said, Christian music is growing very fast. In 2024, Spotify claimed that contemporary Christian music, also called CCM, jumped 60 % globally over a five-year period. Last year, two Christian songs simultaneously hit the Hot 100 chart, which was a first since 2013. And the genre is quickly gaining ground outside of the U.S. too, especially in markets like Brazil, Mexico, India, and Indonesia. Importantly, it's also clear that the genre's fan base is not just expanding. It's also getting more youthful.

2:56According to Spotify, in 2021, 39 % of CCM listeners were millennials or younger. And then just three years later, in 2024, that number jumped to 45 % of listeners being millennial or younger. But it's a messy thing to turn music designed for worshiping God into something that's a real business generating real cash. Christian stars have struggled with how much to accept the money and the fame that have come from being popular in this field. Famously, Forrest Frank recently decided not to participate in the genre's version of the Grammy Awards, which is called the Dove Awards, saying that he will, quote, not receive a trophy for something that is from Jesus and for Jesus.

3:34Maverick City Music, another popular act in this space, is bridging the worlds of CCM and gospel, but they've also struggled with the enmeshment of business and worship. Chandler Moore, a member of the group, left in 2025 and sued the group's CEO for allegedly stealing millions of dollars worth of royalties from him. Then the band's co-founder, Tony Brown, also filed another lawsuit against the collective with racketeering claims over a buyout agreement, which he says was the product of threats and coercion by the group's CEO. That lawsuit was recently dismissed, although Brown does have the option to refile.

4:07So anyways, I'm super fascinated by this topic, and I'm really grateful that Lecrae was able to come and talk to us about all of it. So without further ado, let's cut to my conversation with the one and only Lecrae. All right, Lecrae, welcome to On the Record. Thanks for being here. Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I'm happy to get you here in LA because you're usually in Atlanta, right? That's right. Okay, but we're both from Texas, so we got the same roots. I love that. I love that. So the heartbeat. Oh, yeah. So thank you so much for coming. I really wanted on this season of the show to get into some genres that we haven't really covered yet and one of the genres that we have not covered yet if you could even call it a genre is christian music yeah so i'll start there where we can just kind of discuss i mean christian music is kind of really a subject matter rather than a genre so yeah can you kind of break down for me like all the different sub types within Christian and gospel?

5:04Lecrae:It's the only genre that is based off of subject matter or content. I think it's over 51 % of the content is referencing Christian subject matter than it's Christian music. Interesting. Yes. The only kind of piece of the Christian music industry that has a unique sound so to speak is gospel. Gospel has a unique sound. There's different publicists, labels, radio, all those different aspects. You know, in publishing, we have something, well, CCLI, where churches can license the music that artists write to use them on Sunday mornings. Interesting. So a lot of Christian artists who write music make sure that their music is, you know, licensed through CCLI.

5:55And churches pay a particular fee, which is, I mean, it's pretty lucrative for a lot of these artists and these writers.

6:03Lecrae:So when you think about songs like How Great Is Our God or something like that, that every Sunday the writer of that song is getting paid for that song. I find that to be so fascinating. Like being a Christian songwriter with a hit, you're eating for life. For life. That is insane to me. You can make a standard. I don't really think you can get that. in any other genre. Globally, you gotta think, globally, these churches are using a Chris Talman song and they're paying for that song every time they use it, every time they sing it on a Sunday. And I mean, how many churches are there in any given community, any given neighborhood?

6:40I mean, just go to like Kansas City, Missouri, go to Texas. Yeah, oh my God. Yeah, and some of these churches have like just gigantic congregations. And we're talking about the kind of churches that are playing essentially like pop music in their services or rock music or whatever. These are congregations of thousands sometimes. Yeah.

6:58Lecrae:Yeah. So I know that's sticky subject when you're talking about faith-based music. Well, yeah. Yeah. No, that's why I think the Christian music industry is so fascinating because, okay, the music business in general is already a sticky subject matter because it's a business whose product is someone's, like, life's work, their heart and soul poured out into art. And that's inherently always going to be difficult. When you add faith into it and money, I imagine it is really, really sticky. Tell me about that because you have your own record label, Reach Records. You're an artist. How has it been for you trying to navigate all of those things at once?

7:39Lecrae:When I started off, I went to major labels. I said, hey, here's my demo. Here's my music. And the hip-hop label said it's too Christian, so you should take it to the gospel label. took it the gospel label said it's too hip-hop so we didn't none of them took us so we just kind of created our own lane um being an artist was was what I was primarily trying to do but I had to function as a label because no there was nowhere to distribute my music we kind of fell into being an independent label and now 20 years later of course you know we we you know we've had to navigate it all so now I feel like I went to college the school of hard knocks in the music industry you know what I mean so I know how to do all the things now walk me back to that time this is like early 2000s right when you're when you're doing this so was Christian hip-hop a thing at all not really so that's the that's the funny thing it was very underground so super super niche I mean it still is but it's more accessible now it was it was underground there were no major label signings.

8:43Lecrae:There were no artists that had massive platforms. You know, the biggest, the two biggest groups were one group that was doing some work with Kirk Franklin called Gospel Gangsters and another group called Cross Movement that was out of Philly. And they were kind of the biggest. And I mean, you know, to sell 100 ,000 units over the course of a year and a half would have been like a big deal for them at the time so yeah so it wasn't a thing and all the tours were kind of mom and pop you know instead of the club scene we had churches like little mom and pop churches that you would tour and so there was not a lot of of of action so for us we noticed that the west coast and the east coast were the more prominent voices within the christian rap space because the industry existed there but the south in mainstream was on the rise so you had ti at this point in time you had lil wayne you had all these artists cash money rising up and we said well there's not a voice in the christian space from the south and so that is kind of where we took took shape took form and uh and it was gangbusters there's a lot to that but that's Yeah, like TLDR, fast forward, it's going gangbusters.

10:03But I imagine you started to get noticed after that. I'm sure all the labels that said before, oh, it's too Christian for us or oh, it's too hip hop for us start calling.

10:11Lecrae:So this is funny. This is a funny story. So we used to sell CDs on consignment to like stores. This is back when you bought music at a store, right? Yeah. This is the ancient days. But so there was a store that I wanted to sell my music. And I said, hey, will you buy, you know, I don't know, 10 of my CDs, my first CD? Of course, they said. They said, well, we'll buy we'll buy two and see if anybody wants them. And if they want them, then we'll order some more. Now, what they didn't know was I was part of this, you know, college Bible study. and we were probably about, I'd say we about 50 deep, but then it was connected to a church that had other college Bible studies and collectively there were about 200 of us.

11:04Lecrae:So I'm doing shows for them. I'm doing events for them. So they're all fans. They're like, when are you going to put out a CD? When are you going to put out a CD? So I said, well, it just so happens that it's going to be at this store. Two CDs were in the store. I sent two people in there they bought them they said man we need 10 i put 10 in there sent 10 people over there they bought those 10 they said we need 25 don't worry i got over 200 people so they ended up getting on the phone and saying man this guy is selling and they kind of became a promotional wheel for us to put it in different music stores around the city and um as i would travel i would tell people go to this store go to this store so it started to to bolster that way then i did this camp in Missouri and kids came from all over the nation.

11:51Lecrae:It's like a sports camp. I created kids across America. Okay. So it's a sports camp in Missouri. So then they go home with my, with my CD and they're telling their people, their pastor, their friends, their community centers. So now it's bubbling. The labels hadn't called yet because they don't know, like we're not showing up on SoundScan just yet. We're still hand to hand. What ended up happening is when iTunes started having their charts, we put our music on there and all the kids at the time were like, this is where we can find this music. So I'll never forget the day my song was on iTunes and it beat out Nicki Minaj and all Nicki's fans were mad and they were sending me mean tweets.

12:39They're still mad to this day about everything. But that's another story. That's another topic. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

12:44Lecrae:So all that to say, that's when people started taking notice. It's like, what the heck is going on? What is happening here? Yeah. Wow. Okay, that's fascinating that you mentioned this summer camp because that's kind of how I first found you. When I was a kid, my sister went to a Christian summer camp in Texas. Okay. And they would only - That's probably Pine Cove or something like that. It was literally Pine Cove. Shout out, Lee. But yeah, so - I performed there too. Oh my God. Wait, that's crazy. I'm going to have to tell her all of this, but she'll also probably watch this. But yeah, so she would go to that camp, come home, and she'd have all these new songs for her iPod that we shared at the time.

13:17And yeah, so that's how I got put onto you. And I mean, two decades later, still going strong. I mean, man, most people don't have that kind of longevity. I really want to also get into the way that the Christian music industry has evolved around you over the last two decades. So from the early beginnings to now, can you name like a few inflection points where you feel like the industry and Christian music started to modernize and move towards where we're sitting now? Yeah. Yeah. I think Christian music is similar to country music, right? In that people are very redundant. They like what they like and they want it the way that

13:57Lecrae:they've always had it. And so there's a lot of loyalty, a lot of loyalty. Yeah. Yes. So for a long time it was difficult to get people to transition to digital right it was like no we want cds we don't want digital we want cds well I had a younger fan base I had a I was on YouTube all the time I was creating content for YouTube because that's where my fans were that's where I was young I'm like hey this is where we are so they were already inclined to stream and and that was a turn for the Christian music industry. I'll never forget. Um, you know, and you know, billboard, uh, listen, I, I used to be on the gospel charts on billboard, all the gospel artists rallied to get me off the gospel charts.

14:44Lecrae:And so when I'm no longer on the gospel charts because we kept being number one, all the time. And it was because people were, were buying the digital downloads and not you know the traditional christian artists their fans were waiting until the cd came out at the store ours were just immediately immediately immediately so that was a transition where people started to say okay something has to change you also touched on you know the summer camp aspect i'm wondering so basically with christian music fan acquisition it's almost like it's like you have to hit all these little pockets of communities and then they'll adopt you yeah and then the next one will i feel like that is also pretty distinct from what you see with pop music oh yeah in the christian music space you know you kind of start with the youth groups and then the camps and then there's these massive tours right there's these there's radio tours the radio stations put together because it's only interesting there's only like two christian radio stations and they are syndicated you know usually around the country um and so if they put a tour together you know there's all that financial backing and so now you're on this massive tour like I did a tour it's called Winter Jam it's a massive the biggest Christian tour there is and we're doing stadiums we're doing you know we're following Drake wherever Drake goes we're hitting the same venues where Beyonce goes we're hitting the same venues and there's you know I saw a half a million people on tour you know what I mean and so it's just a different entity it's it's i will say there's way more loyalty there's a general message that's connecting with listeners it's a message that everyone is rallying around so they're supporting it i don't want to like make it sound like nasty like we're just prostituting our faith for dollars but what i will say is that you know everything is a every business is a people business so you're You're always trying to figure out how to serve people and give them what they want in exchange for them paying you for your service.

16:47Lecrae:And so we just want to do good business with people. I mean, it's an industry. It's a business. And that's what the Christian music industry is. Yeah. Well, I think it's really interesting. I mean, the only instance I've heard of kind of a Christian music business deal gone wrong is like the Maverick City Music stuff that's been happening. Basically, there's a couple different lawsuits going on around Maverick City Music, which is such a huge group right now. So I'm wondering, like, do you see instances of that pretty often where there is kind of a music or like a record label dispute or a disagreement because this is faith and business mixing together?

17:23Lecrae:You know what I see, honestly, is I see. It's usually tough when the executives don't understand the culture or the faith. so it's kind of like saying like yeah you got a guy who's done pop music forever and now he's in charge of the afro beat like yeah section and it's like there's some there's some confusion on how this culture moves yeah what the ideals and the values are and you know you can end up unintentionally being disrespectful because you're you're just trying to do what you think you know best to do. And I think that happens a lot of times is where you have executives who are like, well, they don't understand the nuances of the genre, but they understand the music industry.

18:10Lecrae:And it's a both ends. So that tends to create some tension a lot within the space for sure. Yeah. Well, I mean, Christian music in general is experiencing a huge boom right now. It's become really, really popular. And I do imagine that there's probably a lot of record executives out there who are like, oh, maybe there's some money to be made here. So like, is there increasing competition for you as a record label owner who's trying to sign, you know, talent in this space? Is there a lot of competition for mainstream labels now? Yes and no. So yes, the mainstream labels have indeed gone after a lot of the Christian artists and thrown bigger checks than some of us independent labels could throw at these artists the difference is um they're they don't understand the culture the the niche the the type of artists that they should get behind because a lot of times within let's just say hip-hop in general um if the song is viral and people like it it'll work you know what i mean it'll work um but there are certain genres you know that are a little more nuanced that are a little more there's some cultural things and because christian music is subject matter oriented it's like well what's the subject matter of this song and who is this artist and especially within the christian hip-hop space we're very communal so it's almost like you i don't want to say you got to pay your dues but there is a sense of like who knows you you know what i mean no that's fair i think that that's the same kind of thing i've been hearing from country music executives as the mainstream coastal labels have moved into Nashville because it just, you know, country's also exploding right now.

19:54And they're kind of like, I mean, you know, they want to kind of safeguard their writing rooms and, you know, their teams and stuff like that. But I mean, I do imagine though, there's probably some Christian labels that are maybe, I'm not saying yours, but like there are probably some that are maybe not keeping up with the speed at which this genre is modernizing and moving into streaming and hitting the younger audiences. I have seen from Spotify's released some numbers that the genre's audience has gotten a lot younger. Yes. So do some of the mainstream labels have some catching up to do in terms of what's happening in music right now?

20:30Lecrae:I think so. I think, I mean, first of all, let's be clear. The music industry in and of itself is the rate of change is like a thousand times more than it's ever been. Yeah. So no one has fully grasped where we are and where we're going. I think everyone is holding on by the seat of their pants. Our exec team group text is actually called Pivot Gang because you've got to be ready to pivot at any moment. And that's one of the benefits we have of being an independent label is that we can move very rapidly. We can change things. Whereas bigger labels, there's a lot more red tape, a lot more bureaucracy.

21:11Lecrae:A lot more things that they have to go through. Now, I will say this. For some of the smaller Christian labels, not smaller, some of the Christian labels that are attached to mainstream labels, they do have a little more, they have a tougher time. Adjusting, being at ground level, understanding what's going on. It helps for me to not only be a label owner, but an artist. So I'm at the festivals. I'm at the places. I'm talking to the younger artists. I'm looking at who's rising up and who people love. So I get to be at ground zero a lot more than a lot of the other labels do. Yeah. And going back to what you're saying about doing that radio tour, that was such a big deal.

21:52Radio has been seen as such a gatekeeper in the music industry for so long. But now as people have moved more and more onto streaming, including Christian music fans, I imagine that some of the Christian radio stations have lost some of that institutional power, the gatekeeper power that they once had. How do you think that that is going to affect Christian music as a genre?

22:13Lecrae:Yeah, I think Christian music infrastructures, again, it's so similar to country. Like it kind of transitions a little slower than a lot of mainstream. So you have a little more time to adjust. So radio will probably live a little longer in the Christian space than it will live in mainstream spaces, right? 40-year-old soccer mom who's got kids in the back and she wants some clean music for her kids to listen to. She's a millennial mom, but she may not be a playlist mom just yet, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, 34-year-old mom may have grown up making playlists on her apps and is more streaming and that's more her niche.

23:04Lecrae:Um, you know, 40 plus moms probably, you know, using maybe, maybe using a playlist, but she still might listen to the radio to find her music. So it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a both end, I think, but as the audience gets younger, then I think, um, that, that definitely becomes more of a reality. Yeah. Well, why do you think the audience is getting so much younger? I know you've always had a young audience, but most of Christian music has not had that. So why do you think the audiences in Christian music are getting younger? I think the parents of Gen Z were inundated with religion, right? They were like, it was forced on them, right?

23:47Lecrae:Forced on millennials in a lot of ways where it was like, ah, I don't know how I feel about this. And so we're more exploratory. We're like, I'm not forcing this on my kids. I'm not doing that. And so there's a generation of Gen Zs who are like, well, I didn't grow up in a religious household. and I'm interested. Like, what is this thing you're keeping from me, mom, that grandma's showed you? And like, what are you afraid? Oh, I just don't want you to not be able to wear pants. And, you know, and so Gen Z is like, well, we want to know about God and we want to explore our faith and we're interested in spirituality.

24:21Lecrae:And so that age group is the most transformative and rebellious age group. You know, revolutionaries are generally like college students. And so they're like, no, we're going to charge the gates. What we want to listen to this and this is what we're going to do. And so they're just mobilizing and they're so open to spirituality. They're not as off put as older generations were. That's super interesting. Yeah. And I mean, obviously, politics has become a big thing in a lot of churches. A lot of preachers are starting to talk more and more about politics in the church. I'm wondering, have you seen politics infiltrate the Christian music industry?

25:00Lecrae:Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, I think what has happened is politics have created a dividing line in a lot of ways for Christians in general. And so it's made it really polarizing. Like, are you this side or that side? Which I think is unfortunate. it um but because politics has made everything so polarizing um people are looking for soundtracks to their views and so they're saying well this aligns with where i stand politically obviously christians by and large have i'm not saying christians are conservative politically but christians have conservative views in general by and large i'm generalizing broad brush right Christians have some conservative views.

25:46Lecrae:So people would assume that Christians are going to be conservatives or politically conservative. And so politicians will say, hey, we want this artist or this song or this person to be at our event or our festival or our thing and back us this way and do this. And that does help or hinder in some in some capacities, because in people's mind, you've drawn a line. I think in the same way people think country music is politically conservative. That's just it doesn't it doesn't it's not necessarily true, but that's the perception. Yeah. So do you think that country and Christian have risen up at this moment because there's also a rise in conservatism?

26:26Lecrae:I don't know. That's an interesting question. That's something I'm not really sure about. Within the church space, it's still very cultural and coastal. So by and large, I don't think you're going to see a lot of black Christians who are going to vote politically conservative. By and large, I don't think you'll see a lot of coastal Christians vote politically conservative, right? Like California, New York. Totally. In the middle, for sure. Yeah. So potentially, I mean, it could have an effect. Yeah. Is there a big racial dividing line within Christian music? Not intentionally. OK, not intentionally.

27:07Lecrae:I think it's it's the result of. You know, American racism and culture. So I think because. Let's just use black and whites for now, right, because black people were told you're not allowed to worship with us in this, you know, historically in America, black people said, well, we got to have our own churches, which created their own sound, which created their own styles, which says, well, this is how we worship God culturally. And then you've got white Christians who say, well, this is how we've been worshiping God culturally. And the sounds are so different that it was like, well, these are actually two genres.

27:49Lecrae:Let's make them two genres. They're both Christian by subject matter. But within this genre, let's have some sub genres. This episode is brought to you by Redfin. You're listening to a podcast, which means you're probably multitasking, maybe even scrolling home listings on Redfin, saving homes without expecting to get them. But Redfin isn't just built for endless browsing. It's built to help you find and own a home. With agents who close twice as many deals, when you find the one, you've got a real shot at getting it. Get started at redfin.com. Own the dream. Half-Man, the new HBO original limited series from Baby Reindeer creator Richard Gad, examines the tumultuous relationship between two estranged brothers, tracking the highs and lows of the pair over the course of 40 years.