How the Music Industry’s Biggest Hits Are Written w/ Amy Allen

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0:47Watch now. Hello and welcome to On the Record, a new music business podcast from Billboard and Zippard Productions. I'm your host, Kristen Robinson. And today we are joined by Amy Allen, perhaps the most in-demand pop songwriter out there today. In just a few years, she's written top hot 100 hits like Espresso, Without Me, APT, Greedy, Adore You, Graveyard, Please, Please, Please, and so many more. She was the first woman to ever earn the award for Grammy Songwriter of the Year. and most recently she helped Sabrina Carpenter create her latest Billboard number one album Man's Best Friend, writing every single song on the record.

1:27I wanted to have Amy on here today to talk about what a career really looks like as a top songwriter and how the role of a songwriter is changing and who would be better to do that than Amy. So without further ado, please welcome to the show Amy Allen.

1:46Amy Allen, welcome to On The Record. Thanks so much for being here. Thanks for having me. I wanted to start off this conversation about kind of life as a modern songwriter in 2025 with going back to where it all began for you. So you grew up in Maine. Crumb, Maine. Yeah, you famously went to nursing school for a hot sec. I did. Big mistake. Not cut out for it. Wait, so how long did you last there? Two years. Wait, what? Two years too long. Oh, I was thinking this was like a semester. It was long. Wow. It was long. Do you remember anything? You know, I kind of remember like where to take people's pulses.

2:22Like really all the places on the body where you can find a pulse. I mean, two years is right when you get to the part where you like go into actual clinical places. And I left before that because I was certainly not cut out to be in any hospital setting. Wow. Yeah. Okay. And then you went to Berkeley. Went to Berkeley. Okay. Did you graduate? I did, but I was only there for two and a half years because I did, I had already done like so many courses at Boston College where I was for nursing. So I got all of those transferred and I just got to focus on the music stuff when I was there. So I did it in like a short amount of time, but famously, it's not cool to graduate from Berkeley.

2:55I haven't met that many people who graduated. I actually, I applied there and I almost went, like I got a roommate. I was ready to go. What happened? Well, so I found out on like some government forum, like they listed the graduation rate for Berkeley and it was 49%. Parents are like, nah. Yeah. And my parents were like, you're going to finish. My friends that didn't graduate her because they were like doing what they love to do already. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's true. That's true. So, so from there you went to New York, right? I lived in Boston for a year after I graduated with my band, was playing a ton of shows, working at Lululemon, trying to save up enough money.

3:30And then I moved to New York. Okay. Wow. And that's when everything kind of changed. Okay. So what was kind of that light bulb moment for you as a songwriter? I basically had the band and I went into um a record label meeting that's the dream was like to get the band signed and uh they were playing music over the loudspeakers it was that very awkward moment where everybody's like stopping and listening and you're sitting there listening to your own songs on the last few years and I just had this real like come to Jesus moment where I was like you're not good enough I'm just like this isn't good enough well as much as I loved performing and being with my friends and doing the band thing I was like I how could I ask them to believe in it if I don't believe in it yet.

4:08So I, after that meeting, like ended the band, I was just like exited the band and went into songwriting, like meeting as many songwriters as I could and getting put into obsessions. And I met this guy, Scott Harris, who became a really good friend of mine, who is a really big songwriter still. And yeah, everything kind of went from there. And then there was a moment when you wrote a melody for something that became a Selena Gomez song right um tell me about that experience because that sounds like probably your first really size one yeah i was going through something like this relationship had been this like tumultuous thing for like years and years of my life and it was this kind of like realization that i like kept going back to this person no matter who else i was meeting i would like keep going back to him and whatever we kind of had this like moment in new york and it all just kind of like came to a head and that night i just like i don't know was aimlessly singing around my apartment and did the melody of what became a Selena Gomez song.

5:07And so the next morning I went into my session, I brought that melody and wrote it with a couple friends of mine. And then it found its way to Selena through my phenomenal manager and other people. That was like the massive turning point in my career where then I moved to LA and signed a publishing deal. Wow. I've been doing since then. So that was a pitch record, which one of the things I do at Billboard, one of my big focuses is publishing and songwriting. And so as part of that, I feel like I keep hearing, I've heard since the day I started here that pitch records are becoming less and less popular.

5:40So I'm wondering for you, what do you think that means for songwriters who are coming up that there are less opportunities for pitch records? And meaning if pitch songs when the artist isn't in the room? I think it means two things. The first thing feels like it would be harder for songwriters to get into the door because my first two songs that changed my trajectory of my career were pitch records that selena gomez song and a halsey song called without me that changed everything for me and i wouldn't have gotten to go into the room with those artists at that time in my career because i was you know i didn't have any track record of writing songs so it's a little bit like okay you feel like two arms are being tied behind your back as a new songwriter where you know the pitch game is not as strong as it used to be and artists are wanting to be in the room and writing with the songwriters.

6:25It also lends to like really exciting songs now where, you know, the artists are infusing every part of their life into these songs. And that's really exciting. And I think the other thing that could be seen as a positive is that now big songs are coming from everywhere. Like when I was coming up in songwriting seven or eight years ago, TikTok wasn't a thing. Like people weren't exploding off of TikTok. And so now there are a lot more ways for songwriters to get into the door of people at early phases in their career because they, you know, they might find them on TikTok and then or however they find them.

6:55So there's pros and cons. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. Like TikTok is a discovery platform, not just for artists, but also aspiring songwriters. Right. Like collaborators. And I think it just goes to show that an amazing song can come from anywhere. It's not like we're just being told by, you know, the radio programmers who the big artists are of today. So. Yeah, that's true. Obviously, TikTok is very focused on short soundbites within songs. Yeah. Do you think that that has impacted any of the sessions that you've been in where people are kind of trying to game a song to fit a TikTok mold? I think it definitely subconsciously goes into the brains of a lot of us because we are getting fed content that is really short and really quick and constantly it's just being fed and fed and fed to us.

7:37But I will say that the songs and the artists that I love the most are the ones that push against how consumption is going right now. And I feel like most of the artists that I work with are really striving and falling in love with like the long form of like doing a full album and not caring if a song is four minutes and 50 seconds long versus like a two minute 40 second you know yeah I feel like a lot of people are pushing against it in a way that's exciting and bringing music back to you know why we all love music which is honesty and not caring if it's like a catchy 20 second bit you know it's a story so yeah and I mean what you're saying about like longer songs one of the benefits of right now is that because you don't have radio programmers who are like it needs to be three minutes 30 seconds or we're not playing it right there is a little bit more freedom to play around with the outro of a song if you wanted to and just lengthen it out and have fun with it or you know whatever and i think something that's really exciting about right now is of course because so many artists are in the rooms now writing their own songs with songwriters so much personality is in all these songs and i feel like the walls have been kind of broken down of like what a pop song should be and there's so many at least what I love as a songwriter in today's world is that um like eight years ago if there had been a key change in a song that I was a part of people would have been like the public isn't gonna understand that they're not gonna want that if there are too many chords going on like they won't get it if there's like a witty lyric like you know that's not okay like that's not for a pop thing and now it feels like there's no rules in pop music right now it just I think really exciting place to be yeah yeah one of the things that I really love about Sabrina Carpenter's work, which you've worked on extensively, congratulations on Man's Best Friend, is that she is witty and she is humorous.

9:19And I feel like for a long time, it was really hard to find any humor in pop music. Totally. I know. I feel like for a long time, the only place where I could regularly find someone who is good at writing witty or funny lyrics were maybe like rappers like a Lil Wayne or something like that. Like he has great one liners, but I didn't really see it much in pop. So you think that like the reason why maybe like people are able to kind of express their personalities more is just maybe the democratization that we live in now? I think so. And maybe because of social media, fans are really getting to like live with their favorite artists.

9:54Like they're getting there's so many contact points for them to be and get to know with their favorite artist. and I think that allows for artists to feel like okay I'm like gonna really express myself and Sabrina I have to give her like so many props for being vulnerable enough and really like walking out on these branches that are scary and being like here's my entire personality here's who I am and like shamelessly doing her thing and I think it's says so much about you know the general public that they eat that up and they're I feel like it's really refreshing it's not feel like somebody's putting on this front of like, I'm a pop star and everything is perfect.

10:30I've never done anything wrong. It's really like engaging to have somebody that you idolize as a pop artist and feel like she's just like you in so many ways. Yeah. Yeah. That's very true. I'm wondering, like, have you ever seen fans online dissecting lyrics that you've written and getting it completely wrong or being like, I think this means Sabrina is talking about this. And it's like, totally not. Every artist that I work with that happens. And it's funny. It's honestly fun. I'm like, it's nice to see how people can read certain situations. And even if it's like a negative read on it, it's nice to see like, oh, that person reacted like this and I would have never read that or react.

11:05You know, it's just it's interesting. Yeah, it's I think it's enlightening. It makes me love songwriting even more because I'm like, there's everybody can take away endless things from songs. Is there any like particular examples of when you've seen that happen? I mean, so many. So I think the thing, my major takeaway of that is how I feel invigorated by people falling in love with songwriting again, and the people behind the songs and how fans of music are like really starting to respect and be excited about songwriters. Yeah. And I see that on the internet all the time now where people are like, this songwriter wrote this and this and part of this.

11:41And it's like, it's really exciting that songwriters are having that shine. And it's, I get to see so many of my friends be discovered in real time by, by fans of music. And it's, it's really cool, I think. So someone has listened to kind of the, this is Amy Allen playlist or they're written by Amy Allen playlist. Like what are some of the through lines that you can tell from your own songwriting catalog that are kind of like characteristic Amy Allen isms? That's so hard for me to identify myself. I have people all the time be like, oh, I heard this and I knew it was you immediately but I I don't know I think honestly my favorite thing is connecting with an emotion and telling that as like honestly and truthfully as I can and whether that's my personal story or the artist's personal story just like finding a new way to say that and I feel like when I listen back to my favorite songs that I've been a part of that thing holds true in all of them where it's like there's a clear storytelling like through line to the entire thing and an emotion that's being hit at and every step of the way so i feel like i love that about a lot of the songs that i've been a part of but i don't know a lot of people say things melodically too like they they can tell it's like a melodic thing but i don't know yeah yeah so what are some of your favorite songs that you've been a part of oh my gosh or let's just name one it doesn't have to be the the utmost favorite but just like one that has like really good memories attached i love matilda that i did with harry great song i really will always love that song i think that song means so much to me and getting to make that with him was like one of the highlights of my entire career I love please please please because I love how many boundaries that pushes I was like a pop yes big radio song like when we were writing that I don't think anybody in a million years would have been like this is going to be a hit like it just felt like we were following some emotion that we all loved and we're all on the same train and riding it together and not knowing exactly where it was going and we came out with something that felt so new and exciting and to see the public react in a way that they did to that and make it a pop hit is so cool yeah that's one of those hits where immediately upon like you know the first listen you just know that it is a special and very different song yeah for a pop star to yeah it's so musical which like i feel like a lot of people wouldn't even pick up on the fact that there's like key changes happening and how like rangy that song is to sing it's like an impossible song to sing and she does it so flawlessly and yeah i don't know there's i love so many things about that song i was just doing some research on you before I did this interview.

14:09Don't be terrified. It's very basic stuff. Yeah. One of the things that I was reading about is you told one of my colleagues at Billboard that you don't listen to pop radio. I try not to. And I thought that was really interesting as someone who makes pop radio hits often. So what's the rationale behind that? I think I did. I started not listening. I mean, of course, as a human being on the earth, When I walk outside, like I will hear the new, you know, whoever has the big song at that moment. Like you can't escape big pop radio hits. Totally. You walk and you hear them everywhere. But I think like maybe my second year living in LA when I moved here, I was doing like two sessions a day.

14:49And I entered this phase, which so many songwriter friends of mine, we've all talked about it, where you kind of feel like you're in the passenger seat of this big, you know, bad like car ride that's going up. Like what pop music is. Okay. You kind of get like swept into this like, well, this is what's cool right now. And so we're chasing after this. And my influences for the song today are these three songs that are on the radio right now. And you just kind of lose yourself in like trying to chase trend. And it really like messed with my brain for like a year where I was just like, how do I get out of this?

15:19And then I realized kind of during COVID where I like really went back and like started to fall back in love with the songs that I grew up listening to and my favorite artists that made me fall in love with music for the first place. I was like, I need to be continuously inspired by things that are not happening right this second. It's good for me to know what's happening because a lot of my friends have made the songs that are happening. Yeah, yeah. You want to support your friends. Of course I want to support them. It's good to have a pulse on it, but I like to be inspired by things that are not happening right now.

15:47Yeah. And then I have found that that allows me to tap into something that makes something sound much different than what's happening right now. And those are the songs that excite me the most is when it feels like something that shouldn't be popular right now. And then it becomes popular. Yeah, that's how you become the trendsetter instead of being in the passenger seat. Yes, passenger seat is not my favorite place to be. Yeah, yeah, no, I get that. So what were some of those early influences that you found yourself going back to? A lot of Tom Petty. Okay. Like a lot of Tom Petty, a lot of Dolly, of, I mean, John Prine, ABBA, Rolling Stones, Stevie Nicks, like Always and Forever, Paul McCartney, just like bands and artists that my dad would play in the car when I was little in Maine driving around and and like that were really just like emotion core you know like yeah there wasn't a ton of frill they were like played live and like every lyric had to be there for the song to make sense yes and I that's what made me fall in love with music is like being hit really hard in the chest of like oh I understand exactly what that person is feeling yeah and it's not just some like catchy loop with like somebody talking about nonsense or you know my kid yeah I just I love when a song hits you like square in the face So yeah, I go back to those a lot.

16:59Yeah. One of my favorite, I guess, I don't even know if it could be called a genre, but like things to listen to are like your John Prines or your like Towns Van Zandt is one of my favorites where it's like they don't even necessarily have the best vocals. The production is sparse. Yeah. It's truly just the song and it's so stripped back that like if the song wasn't there, it completely falls apart. Totally. But yeah, I'm wondering, like, in 2025, do you think that there is a defining sound that's happening right now? How would you identify that? Like, what are we going to look back on for 2025 and be like, that's the sound of 2025?

17:35That's fun. Yeah. I don't know. I think things are becoming very musical again, which I'm really excited about. Because, like I said, when I first kind of got into it, it was like, you know, four chords. Everything was kind of dark. Everything was like it was like a lot of like trap drums and everything felt just kind of like everybody was trying to be really cool and kind of like melancholy and dark. Was this like what, like 2016? Yeah. Yeah, no, 2018. 2018, 2019, 2020. And then now I feel like people want to have fun again and people are taking themselves less seriously and they're being like vulnerable and just like expressing themselves.

18:11And I love the trend that that is right now. Like I get so inspired by the artists that are open enough to do that and follow that. And and yeah, I think we'll look back at this 10 years and be like, oh, this was like a musical experimentation like time. Yeah. Yeah. I love that. So I think one of the things that you touched on earlier that I want to go back to is that like some artists are really locking in with like a core group of people that they're writing songs with and really like, I guess, forming almost like a songwriting musical family during their projects. you've done this with Sabrina this year on man's best friend writing across all of the tracks, correct?

18:49Okay. So it's like a very tight writing room. Yeah. And I think there's like a lot of pros to that. Maybe some cons too. I'm wondering if you could reflect on just generally this trend of kind of people locking in with the same core group. Yeah. For me, it hadn't really been a trend. It was the thing that I like, I'm so grateful and in love with Sabrina for is trusting me to bring me in on short and sweet with her for every song which I'd never gotten to do in my career before and then again of course I'm man's best friend and I think that was another big turning point in my career where I was like oh I forgot how much I love music because every day I go in my usual schedule is like I'm in with somebody different every single day yeah which is really fun and new and it keeps things fresh and sometimes I'm doing R &B sometimes I'm doing country other days pop whatever but to really get to like dig in and find a rapport with somebody and build the chemistry and get to know them inside and out and have this like shorthand and inside jokes and and then get to express that through music like totally like bust my world wide open again with what music could be and so now it is becoming a trend for me at least where you know I'm getting to do that with Sabrina I've worked on you know on Tate's last album I got to do like I don't know eight or nine songs on that on Rosie's album I got to do a lot of songs so it's becoming a really nice flow for me to be able to like be with the artist and really move through the entire album process with them um but yeah i mean people for for ages and ages have found like their core group but it's hard as a songwriter to enter into that equation yeah really hard and i feel like only in the past since short and sweet like i'd never been given that luxury of the opportunity to do that um and i hope that every songwriter that loves songwriting with all their heart and soul gets that opportunity because it really changes things in my opinion yeah i always think back to although i often have people come up and be like you know i feel like this is really a trend right now people are really locking in with the same people i mean i always think back to like really successful collaborations between producers and songwriters and artists in in the past i always think of like quincy jones and michael jackson like there have been people historically that have always locked in yeah for lack of better term um but it creates a zone of like safety too with the artists where they don't feel like they have to like be giving pieces of themselves away to like different people every day of the week.

21:06They can build a bond and then you can feel it. I feel like in the music, like you can really tell when an album's been made by like a core group of people that trust each other and know each other and are all aligned on what the project is and should be. So, yeah. Yeah. You mentioned that you'll sometimes be writing pop music one day, R &B, another, maybe country. I think while most people know you as a pop songwriter, you definitely have a lot of country hits and Nashville works fairly differently. So I'm wondering if you could walk us through kind of the difference between entering a pop session versus entering a true country session.

21:43Well, first of all, I love that they start early. They always start earlier. In L.A. sometimes people will be like, we're going to start at four. And I'm like, what is everyone doing for four? Like, why are we starting at four? So I love that national, like, people are starting at like 10 a.m. and they're out by 4 p.m. And then they can do another session if they want or they can just like have a regular life after 4 p.m. and go do their whatever they want. be with their family or whatever it is um but i love to me at least in my experience of writing country songs and i've learned so many so many things from like i who i see like the great women of country are um like laura mckenna and so many of them that i've learned from but i love that like nothing really moves past is it takes precedent over the song in a country session in my opinion like in a pop session and most other genres like the production is happening simultaneously and sometimes you lose track of if the song is good because the production becomes like the main character a little bit yeah which you know there's sometimes reasons why that happens and and the track or like the synth line or the guitar line is like as big of a part as the actual song itself but for the most part i love that in nashville like nothing is really getting touched or put down until the song is like concrete and everybody's in agreement that it's like as good as it can be.

23:00And I love the like honing of the craft that happens in Nashville. Yeah. So was it difficult to break into Nashville sessions? I've heard from some people before that like Nashville people can be fairly protective about like, you know, their own. So were they immediately receptive to you as a pop songwriter going in or did it take some work? You know, I've had an amazing time going every time I've gone there. And I it's funny, I meet a lot of people and a lot of people, I I think I don't know why, but I have this reputation sometimes from people that I live in Nashville or I'm from Nashville for some reason.

23:35And I don't know if that's because I'm from a small town or vain or if it's because I work with a lot of country artists or what that is. But I always take that as like a huge badge of honor because I think that they are the best songwriters in the world come out of, you know, Nashville and the country music scene. But I've always just felt like it's a warm hug down there anytime I'm working. And I feel like I learn so much and I just, yeah, it's like a breath of fresh air for me to get to be surrounded by people who are obsessed with like lyrics and song craft as I am. This episode is brought to you by the National Music Publishers Association or the NMPA.

24:13You know that song you can't get out of your head? Someone wrote that. And behind every hit song is a songwriter who deserves to be paid fairly for their work. That's where the NMPA comes in. The National Music Publishers Association is the trade organization representing all American music publishers and their songwriting partners. And every day, the NMPA's mission is to protect and increase the value of songs. Based in Washington, D.C., the NMPA works on the front lines, shaping legislation, handling litigation, and navigating regulations, all to ensure that publishers and songwriters are paid fairly for every use of their work.

24:49And they're not afraid to go up against big tech to do it. The NMPA also celebrates songwriters through certifying gold and platinum hits through their official program and hosting events honoring the creators behind the music we love all year long. To learn more about this organization, head to NMPA.org. That's NMPA.org. Often on the show, I have on executives, folks on the business-y kind of side of the music industry. I'm wondering from the creative side what do you think business folks in the music business get wrong about your role or about songwriters? like what songwriters do? yeah hmm that's a good question the manager's in the house and I'm looking at her but I don't know I think it's actually really funny I've had this talk with my manager before where we've been working together for like seven or eight years now and I'm like how crazy is it that you've actually never seen me do what I do wait wow it's really crazy because it's this like sometimes an A &R or a manager will sit in on the session, but like no songwriter likes that.

25:51If anybody, if any songwriter tells you they like that, I'm like, you're lying. It is not helpful when that's happening. Because you feel like you're like mom or dad, like you feel like a chaperone's in the room, you know? And it's really, I don't know. It feels like really constricting to me and to most songwriters. I know nobody likes it when that happens. So it's interesting that like, you know, she's every song I've ever written, she's been a part of, you know, getting it to the finish line of like having it come out or whatever. and she's never actually seen me do the thing. So I can imagine like there's still this like, I don't know.

26:22Like a mystique to it. Mystique to it a little bit, which I kind of like. I'm like, it feels magical. Yeah. I don't know. I think sometimes people hear songwriter and it's synonymous with top liner, which I don't really like the term top liner because it makes it seem like a lot of songwriters don't know how to play an instrument or aren't instrumental in creating the like chords of the song or like we just go in there and we like sing a melody and then we have maybe a lyric you know i i don't know i think songwriters are so at least my favorite songwriters that i'm inspired by that i love like are so in love with the entirety of how a song gets made whether that's like production or you know i come up with chords for so many songs and that's one of my favorite parts like I don't love it as much as I love lyrics, but I love coming up with different, you know, chord progressions and pushing myself to learn different ones or how we could lift the song with, you know, I don't know.

27:17Yeah, yeah. There's so many rules that a songwriter plays. And I think that that sometimes maybe isn't fully understood. So one of the things that probably a manager or an A &R on your team probably deals with on your behalf is like the idea of splits. So basically, if someone is listening here and doesn't know what that means, like after a song is written and it's actually going to come out, you have to determine like who owns what percentage of the song, who gets what percentage of royalties. As a creative, obviously, that's a that's a tough conversation. You just poured out your heart and soul to these people and now you have to get down to business.

27:52And so that's typically handled by the business. But I'm wondering from your vantage point, have you ever watched like a splits conversation end up ruining a creative partnership? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, the standard is if, you know, us four were in a room writing today, even if I wrote the entire song, like chords, melody, lyrics, the whole thing, if we're all in the room, it's equal splits. That's usually how it goes. So there's not like a lot of like real time, like, well, I wrote the chorus and you wrote the verse. So like, what's our, you know, it's not that really ever in my experience.

28:26But what happens a lot, and this kind of is like touching on like songwriters rights and how songwriters aren't necessarily always like really respected or put in, you know, I don't know. Not treated. Yeah, not treated rarely, really. Is that a lot of times I'll be in a session and there'll be, you know, me and an artist and a producer. And then all of a sudden the song will come out and there'll be like four other names or three other names on it that I've never heard of or that I've never met or whatever. And it's like it comes through usually the producer of like being like, well, my buddy's added this thing to the track and this thing.

29:01So it's like I've seen that get in the way all the time where what the artist takes, you know, offense to that or I am not OK with that. and there's things like that. But yeah, I mean, it's hard to do something as emotionally compelling and intimate as you do and then have business somehow get in the way of it. Of course, relationships can be strained with that. Yeah, yeah. I imagine that it's also a challenge because you really don't know how much a person in a secondary room, like let's say you have three people in the original room and then they bring in an extra producer later on. You're not there, so you don't even know how much they contributed.

29:40Maybe they contributed a lot, but it's hard to tell when you're not even there to see it. Right. I mean, usually I can tell by listening. Okay. Yeah. Fair. But I know what you mean. Yeah. Yeah. It's a bit like the songwriters are like kept in the dark with a lot of stuff like that, which isn't super fair considering they're the ones that are like giving the song that even anything, the song needs to be done for anything to even be produced, you know? So yes. Yeah. Yeah. I'm wondering, like, how do you feel about like the idea of per diems? I've heard people talk about this idea for songwriters.

30:08Yes. I think it's a phenomenal idea. I was just talking to my good friend Ross Golan about it yesterday. Oh, nice. Who's like such an advocate for songwriters and such like a beacon of light in the music industry right now for songwriters rights. But I think it's a phenomenal idea because as like we were talking earlier, like the new generation of songwriters and the next generation of songwriters where the pitch game is not really there. And, you know, it's a really hard industry to make of a like decent living wage. There needs to be like a middle class of songwriters that can have a living wage.