How to Create the Perfect Film & TV Soundtrack w/ Jen Malone

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1:00This summer, serve up the cookout classics, Oscar Mayer hot dogs and Heinz mustard. Grill up a dog, add classic yellow mustard, or loaded Chicago style. We all know it's not a cookout without Oscar Mayer and Heinz. Hollywood's been going through it. From the pandemic shuttering movie theaters globally, to the rise of streaming video on demand, the shortening of theatrical windows, the SAG-AFTRA and WGA strikes, and the movement away from filming in L.A. It's been hard to recover, and now to top it off, there's major consolidation on the horizon as Paramount purchases Warner Bros. Discovery for billions of dollars.

1:39But amidst all of this chaos, some fantastic TV shows and films are still getting made, and when a good soundtrack is needed, many directors turn to Jen Malone to pick out the tracks. from Beef, Love Story, Euphoria, Creed II, Atlanta, Wednesday, and Mr. and Mrs. Smith. Jen has become the go-to for truly cool and tasteful soundtracks that often steal the show. And today she's coming on the podcast to talk through the state of music in Hollywood today, how she picks the right songs for the right moment, and where she thinks this crazy industry is going next.

2:18Welcome back to On The Record, a music business podcast from Billboard and Sick Bird Productions. As always, I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and today I'm joined by Jen Malone, one of the most in-demand music supervisors in Hollywood. Basically, what that means is Jen is in charge of selecting and licensing the songs for a film or TV soundtrack and also commissioning original songs. This role works alongside the composer who creates original scores. So today you're going to hear us use the word sync or synchronization licensing a lot. And that is the industry's term to refer to the licensing of music for film and TV.

2:52If you think about it, it's pretty simple. You're synchronizing a song to a visual media. So anyways, if you think music's been going through some rough transitions and consolidation, you should look at the film TV business because it's even worse there. I thought that this would be the perfect time to do a check-in on the folks like Jen who are operating between both worlds. But by all accounts, Jen's career is thriving despite it all. She's the CEO and founder of Black and White Music, an all-woman music supervision house, and she has also been part of some of the most culturally significant soundtracks of a generation.

3:27Sync has become an increasingly important route to mint hit songs in a time when breaking through the noise is harder than ever. The biggest example of this, of course, is Kate Bush's Running Up That Hill, which topped the charts after a placement in Stranger Things, but Jen has handpicked some of those breakout hits too. I previously reported on what I call the euphoria bump or the up to 10 ,000 % increases in streams that a sync on that show can bring to a song, whether it's Right Down the Line by Jerry Rafferty, Hold Up by Beyonce, Dirty Work by Steely Dan, or Drink Before the War by Sinead O 'Connor.

4:00She was also the one who made Goo Goo Muck by the Cramps a viral hit after placing the decades-old song in a pivotal scene in the Netflix show Wednesday. So today we're going to get into it. How is the state of Hollywood impacting music? What does it take to be a music supervisor at the top level? And where does she see this industry going? So without further ado, please welcome to the show, Jen Malone. Jen Malone, welcome to On the Record. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. Okay, I'm super excited that you're here. We're gathered here today to talk about kind of the state of Hollywood and how that impacts music within film and TV.

4:36I can't think of a better person to do that with than you. You're the music supervisor behind some of my very favorite TV shows, Love Story, Beef, Euphoria, all of the, I mean, I'm forgetting a million of them. Wednesday, there's a ton. So anyways, I do want to back up though, because you haven't always been a music supervisor. No. So can you tell me about how you got into this field, you know, kind of already a few years into your career? I was a publicist for rock bands in Boston. I actually, I went to Northeastern University and they were one of the first schools that had a music industry program.

5:13So, and they also have the co-op program. You work for six months, you go to school for six months. And so when I was in school and it was like, okay, you have to do your first internship. It was like, well, if I have to wake up and talk about bands, I'm going to talk about my favorite bands, which is was and always will be nine inch nails. So I just, you know, flipped through the downward spiral and it said publicity, you know, Sue Zimmerman for formula. And I was like, two, one, two, five, five, five, one, two, one, two. Back when that was a thing, it was a very small boutique company. I learned so much.

5:47And then when I went back to school, I was taking like music management class and I was kind of like, okay, I just lived this. I just worked with some of the biggest managers in the industry. So I just started my own PR company and that grew to be my career. And then I guess after like 10 years, I just got super burnt out. So I have massive respect for publicists. Yes, so do I. Massive respect. So I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I was kind of in a really bad spot in Boston at the time. I was teaching yoga and then I was washing dishes at a cafe. And then I saw Iron Man and the music supervisor credit rolled by right before the ACDC, Robert Downey Jr.

6:32dropped. And I was like, that's what I want to do. So I just moved my car and my clothes and I just started researching every music supervisor, what shows they did, who their agents were. I read everything there was to learn and then just really started kind of cold calling people and just taking meetings with anybody that would meet with me. Somebody told me that there was a big industry networking event thing that I went and I was just talking, I want to be a music supervisor. And they're like, well, you got a lot of big wigs over here. Dave Jordan's here. And I was like, wait, Dave Jordan does Marvel.

7:10He's on my list. I want to work for him. So I went up and I introduced myself and he's, you know, nice to meet you. And I was like, well, wait, Richard Kraft won't get back to me about getting my resume to you. And he said, you know who my agent is? I said, of course I do. I want to work for you. And he said, that's creepy, but awesome. What's your name? That is a publicist. Yes. That is a publicist right there. That's amazing. We knew from being in the record industry, we knew a lot of the same people. And he was like, why would you want to intern? I said, because this is the entertainment industry.

7:41You start at the bottom. Nobody's going to pay me to do something that I don't know how to do. He was like, OK, start on Monday. So I got an internship with him for the summer. And then when that was over, I didn't have another job. So I was on an email news group of women in the music industry. and somebody posted that MTV was looking for interns in their supervision department. And I was kind of like, okay, going to Dave's fun, funky office is one thing. Going to Viacom is something else. But you'll learn. You'll meet people. So when I went in for the interview, they were like, just trust us.

8:19Do whatever you need to do to get into the orientation. So part of working for a big corporation or interning is you have to get school credit. And that was not possible. Yeah, yeah. But I went to LA Community College on like the ad drop day. I filled out an ad slip. I never went. I never paid. I think I like gave them the wrong address. You know what? I actually did this exact same thing. Yeah. Sometimes it's got to be done. I mean, you got it. Like, it's just the job. Like, you have to figure out ways. You know, nobody's going to hand you anything in this business. Totally. And you have to work for it.

8:56And I did. And so I ended up interning for three days and then got a job as a music coordinator at VH1. So I was in reality TV for about the first five years of my career and then reconnected with a friend from Boston. And she was like, oh, wait, you do music clearance and supervision. Can you help me out with one song? And that was for Baskets. Then it was, is it song Public Domain? Okay, can you just be our music supervisor? so that was um my first supervisor credit I mean before that I was you know coordinating for a bunch of different supervisors just you know just doing it wow and then she called me back again and was like I'm doing another show it's gonna be a lot of hip-hop it's gonna be really hard I don't have a lot of money to pay you it's with Donald Glover and that was Atlanta what and so kind of the rest is history.

9:48Wow. Yeah. That was your first big TV show. Oh my God. Yeah. As a supervisor. That's incredible. Yeah. Okay. Wow. Okay. So for those who don't know, music supervisors are the ones who clear the songs, find the songs for the soundtrack of a TV show, a film, even maybe even like a video game. Oh yeah. There's ads, videos, and trailers. I've previously interviewed a few music supervisors, including this guy, Gabe Hilfer, who does studio White Lotus. And I was talking to him and I thought it was interesting. He said that he feels that he works in the film industry, not in the music industry. I'm curious what your take is on it.

10:25As the music supervisor, you're like the one music person on the film crew. So how do you identify yourself? Do you feel like you're in the music industry or the film TV business? Film and TV, for sure. I think that we're, you know, at a label, they'll have, you know, all of the different promotion, you know, they have the print, they have video games, they have everything and TV is just and film, it's just kind of one aspect of it. So I definitely feel that I'm in the film and TV business. Interesting. Well, okay, speaking of the film and TV business has had a tough few years. We have. It's been a tough few years.

11:07So, I mean, I think it really starts, I'm sure you could trace it back earlier, but it kind of starts with the pandemic shutting down so much production, shutting down movie theaters as well, and really leading to this shift where a lot of films had very short theatrical windows, maybe didn't even make it to the theater at all. After that, you have the strikes. I am curious now, in 2026, what's the energy like in the film TV business? Do you feel like among music supervisors, you're hearing hints of optimism come back yet? Or are times still pretty tough? I will always choose to look at the optimism and that things are coming back.

11:42I do feel that it's getting a little bit busier and there's kind of more shows and more announcements. As a music supervisor, it's kind of a losing battle because in order to make money, you need to do a lot of projects. In order to do a lot of projects, you need help. You have to pay those people. So now you're like right back where you started. So it's really the business model is terrible for a music supervisor. So I know it's still hard for a lot of people, but I just, I think it's going to keep getting better, at least with television. There's, you know, a lot of different streamers right now and, you know, they just want to put out content.

12:22So I do think that there's definitely, I think we're going in the right direction for sure. Looking back at it now, what do you think the ripple effects have been of the pandemic specifically on film and TV production? Well, I don't have to drive a lot to meetings and spotting sessions. I think we're more efficient, to be honest, because it's not, you know, again, just from my aspect, it's not scheduling eight people to be in the room at once from living God knows where ever. So I think it's more efficient that way. And, you know, just meeting on show, just meetings in general are just a lot more streamlined.

13:02I know that's something so small, but. It does save time, though, over time. I mean, if I had to still drive everywhere, I wouldn't have time to work. I wouldn't have any time to do my job. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd just be in the car. Well, absolutely. The interesting thing about music supervision to me is that this is a post-production role. So is it actually? You correct me. What do you think? I think music supervision is one of the most misunderstood jobs in this industry. Take it away. Okay. So we meet on a show before we start shooting because anything that is on camera, somebody singing in the shower, somebody playing along to radio, any dance sequence, a band, a wedding band, you know, any, all of that has to be sorted out and ready to go before we shoot.

13:58so we are working I mean I think music supervisors are one of the very few departments that are on from pre-production all the way to the last delivery of the last episode I don't know many other departments that are on for that long and sometimes longer because of invoicing and all of that while we're like creating you know folders of music we're doing that first because we don't have anything to put a song to before we start shooting. But if there's, you know, in episode one, they're at a party and there's a band playing, even, you know, even if it's just a trio, we have to figure out what song, what arrangement, what do we want the band makeup to be that will connect to locations.

14:45How big is the stage? So we're dealing with locations and then we're getting arrangements made and clearing whatever song and then we're working with casting to find the right people that can play those instruments or mime those instruments because everything is on a pre-record so then we're dealing with casting then we have to set up studio time to go in for the pre-record and have a vocal coach and then we have to we're working with props if you're doing a period show and it's a band I did a show called Hysteria on Peacock where it was about in 80s it was in the 80s and kids were in a metal band so we had to make sure that all the gear was period authentic so that's just what we're doing on Monday but for a shoot that's happening on Friday but Tuesday Wednesday we're seeing what's happening in the next episode in the next episode we're pitching music for episode one so it's definitely a full production.

15:41And what I like now is I'm finding that I am getting on shows very early. That's great. Like I'm really excited about that because there's one show that I just got for Netflix. We don't start shooting until September, but I'm on and that's great because I can, you know, not be a part of the writer's room, but I'm like, if you have any questions kind of before you script in something crazy that we're not going to be able to afford or that we're going to have to get rid of anyway. Yeah. Sorry. No Beatles yesterday, please. No, no, no. I mean, no. No, because no. Okay. That's fascinating because I always think about how music is put in in post, but that's so true.

16:21If you already have a scene where there's going to be a band that is on screen, you need to already be thinking about what the music is going to be. I've also heard before, and correct me if I'm wrong about this, that oftentimes music's budget is one of the first things to get cut by certain directors when they go over budget somewhere else. Is that something that you've experienced? So luckily, I mean, yes, but luckily I, my shows, we have great post producers that will always, and showrunners, that will protect the music budget to the point where sometimes they will squirrel money away in production to give it to us.

17:01Wow. So I'm in a very lucky position, but most of the time, you know, when budgeting is happening at the top, there's not, you know, a knowledge base of how songs cost today versus, you know, 10 years ago, the price of songs has gone up quite a bit. so they're not kind of budgeting properly because they just don't they're just not doing it every single day so our budgets are either the same as they were 10 years ago or lower but a lot of my shows like I said they they know how important music is and they're so passionate and and they have they're looking out for us so you said that the cost of songs has risen for film tv projects Was there a certain inflection point where you really saw them get more expensive or was this gradual over the course of the last 10 years?

17:54I think it's gradual, but I think maybe after the pandemic, we kind of were like, whoa, wait, these quotes are coming in super, super high. I think it was gradual, but yet after the pandemic. Here's my theory here. Do you think the catalog market has anything to do with that? With catalogs changing hands so much more? People on the show who've watched it before probably will know that the catalog market has been hot for the last 5-10 years. Obviously, when you buy a new catalog, you're hoping that you can add value to it so that your investment was worthwhile. And I think a lot of people turn to SYNC and hope that they're going to get some great SYNC so that they can raise the value of their catalog.

18:32So I kind of wonder if maybe some of these new catalog players are just pricing things high? I don't. I think it's actually the opposite. Artists that might have shied away from Sink are now much more open to it. Interesting. They're still expensive. Bruce Springsteen should be very expensive. You shouldn't, you know, that's, it's worth it. You know, we used him in Wednesday and it was, you know, people were like, how is Bruce Springsteen? I was like, it was an easy clear. I mean, I like to think it's because I'm from Jersey, you know, so maybe I had a little pull with that. He's like, you can sense it in you.

19:07Yeah, totally. A lot of artists that were initially more guarded and more hesitant and more priced out are a lot more open to sync. I think that they've seen the power of it. And I think, you know, I remember listening to, I think it was a podcast with Merck about how, you know, it's about legacy of the artist and maintaining that and finding the new fans and what way for a new audience is a show like Wednesday for Bruce Springsteen. Totally. You know? So that's kind of, that's my theory. I don't know if I'm, I could be totally wrong. Yeah, no, I think that's true. And I mean, one of my favorite like sync moments ever was Mad Men, Tomorrow Never Knows, Beatles.

19:56That was the first time the Beatles, I think, I'm pretty sure that's the first time the Beatles ever allowed a TV show to use their music. Yeah, I think so as well. And I mean, I do think like the rise of prestige TV and these just like really incredible projects, I do think also kind of opened the door for more iconic artists to be like, you know what? Mad Men is a great show. And it will be a positive add to the legacy rather than like I'm, you know, allowing my music to be used in a Swiffer Sweeper commercial or like maybe a low budget network TV show. It's like this is a this is just as good as a very prestigious film in a theater.

20:35Yeah, I would agree with that. I think they're just seeing the value in it. And again, just the longevity and the legacy of these catalogs, because they do, I mean, the massive amounts of money for these catalogs. And I think, you know, if you're pricing people out too much, then, you know, at least in the little sink avenue or the little, you know, the line item for sink, you know, you're not going to have much to show for it. So you mentioned that your first big show was Atlanta, and there was a lot of hip hop that you had to clear for that. I think some people listening might not understand why that would be a tough thing to clear.

21:13So can you explain why hip hop and some other genres are more difficult to clear than others? To clear a song, you have to clear the copyright. And there's two parts to it. There's the master recording, which is usually owned by, to put it very easy, whoever paid for the recording. So most instances, it's the record label. And then you have the publishing, which is the music and the lyrics. And if you have a song where you sample another song, those writers from that other song are now part of the writers for this new work. and hip-hop is just it's really it's really hard because um you know especially 80s and 90s hip-hop i mean it's just it's painful because even 2000s because it was still the wild west samples were not being cleared you can't find people i mean we're going through ex-wives right now we're trying to we're dealing with an ex-wife of somebody for a writer to try to get a song cleared because she owns 33.33333 percent like this is just so with hip-hop and I wouldn't say it's just hip-hop um totally you know sample heavy genres yeah but also like world music I think can be hard um like a lot of vintage latin because we work a lot of uh a lot with that for for Wednesday and for some of our other shows so I found that that can be tricky as well and then And you have like territories, you know, OK, well, we own, you know, North America and the BRTs.

22:51And the first time I heard that, I was like, what is a BRT? And that's the British Reversionary Territories. Whoa. So the Commonwealth, essentially? Or I don't know. Maybe this is a rabbit hole we don't need to go down. Yeah, but it's just, I mean. Wow, I've never even heard that before. Yeah, me neither until the BRT. I was like, what is a BRT? Now we know. Man. But so clearance is such, it's one of the most important parts of music supervision. You can't clear a song. You can't use it no matter how perfect it is. Yeah. But there are split disputes. You know, I had one song where, you know, I had like 18 writers and the first three, I already had like 150%.

23:30And I was like, this is not going to happen. The math does not make sense. Yes. So it was not a crash course, but I really, like that was a really really intense show to kind of really learn clearance, but, um, but we did a good job. So I love it. I love it. Well, I mean, so how are you doing this research? Cause I imagine you had to do a deep dive on Atlanta hip hop to make sure that you really understood the culture that you're entering into. Um, what's that process typically like for you? Um, Atlanta trap music. And, um, It was great because Vice had just done a little mini series of 10 minutes of the Atlanta trap scene.

24:14So I watched that. I took copious notes about, you know, Patchwork Studios. And I'm like, Magic City. And, you know, like just doing it all. And, you know, in the same way that when I moved out here to do music supervision, I just researched the shit out of it. It's the same thing with this. And I made a lot of connections and really great friends with a lot of Atlanta people who are very deep in the music industry to this day, you know, that I'm super tight with. And we still help each other out when we can. So it was just it was a complete deep dive. And I loved it. Yeah. I imagine that your projects are probably starting to build on each other now where it's like, OK, well, now I know a lot of people in Atlanta hip hop.

24:57So the next time that I end up on a project, I can just hit those friends up. A hundred percent. And it'll be so much easier than the first time you do it. Have you had any instances where a project has come back around like that and, you know, kind of built on previous relationships you've already built? I mean, every show. Yeah. Every show, you know, there's always, I got a guy somewhere that I can call or let me text my friend or, you know, so we're always, you know, those relationships, whether they're with managers or, you know, booking agents or lawyers, you know, those are very important relationships because you will start seeing the same names.

25:33And, you know, I just sometimes the person that I've spent, you know, two weeks trying to find, I can just text a friend and they're like, putting you on a chain. And I'm like, well, that was easy when I do that first. So yeah, it's, it's very um everything kind of builds on it one of my favorite syncs uh in a show that you've done was season one of euphoria you had hold up by beyonce in there and i remember watching it in real time being like doing like the math in my head i'm like oh my god there's gonna be so many writers on this song i think it's like 15 or 16 writers and nine producers i might be slightly off on that, but that's around the number.

26:14When do you decide that it's worth going through the tricky licensing process of a song like that? I mean, that's up to the showrunner. When there's a song that a showrunner wants, I will do anything and everything humanly possible to get that song. And with Hold Up, I mean, yeah, it had the Andy Williams sample. It had an interpolation of maps by the yayayas and then it had beyonce and all of her writers so it was it was a monster but it was actually there's a lot of paperwork but the splits were figured out so you know we i think we wrote a letter to beyonce because nobody knew what the show was and so we had to kind of you know let her know it was you know it was in good hands and and all of that so it wasn't i'm not i'm gonna say it wasn't a tough clear okay in that I didn't have to find anyone and I didn't have to like put people on the same chain and like can you guys figure out your shit and who wrote what percentages you have so that was kind of yeah where it was with that yeah well okay so you mentioned that you wrote a letter to Beyonce I I imagine that you know a lot of artists who are very protective over their legacy are really going to want to know a lot of information about where their song is going to be placed in a given project, especially when the project hasn't come out yet and you don't have like a previous season to refer back to.

27:39So how much information are you able to share with an artist that you are trying to license a song from about the kind of use case of the song? I mean, really, it depends on the song and the artist and the show. A lot of times our showrunner will be the one. Benny from Overcompensating wrote a beautiful letter to an artist that'll be in the next season and you know you kind of get to you know see them speak from the heart because that's that's what I tell just speak from the heart and for love story we had Bjork and she is a very very tough clear and I knew that but I was like so perfect if this goes sideways you have nobody to blame for it but yourself let it go let it go to Ryan and um we weren't hearing back and I was like it's not a no it's not a no and then it got to the point where like you know I didn't really have any backups because there was nothing that was going to be perfect and I just knew I was like manifesting this approval so uh it was at that time where it was like okay we need a letter and I said to our producers I was like let let me write this letter because Bjork is the soundtrack to the first time I fell in love when I was living in New York and the first time I got my heart broken and I just wrote her a very vulnerable very honest very light like I was crying when I was writing it um obviously first giving the you know about the show and about this beautiful love story and where the episode that we were using it in and why it was so perfect and then I just wrote you know on a personal note your music is so important to me and I just kind of told her my whole story.