How to Survive Virality w/ Rebecca Black

0:00Propel Fitness Water. With Gatorade electrolytes, zero sugar, and vitamins. Propel hydrates better than water to help you get the most out of your workout and get back to your best self. What propels you? Propel with Gatorade electrolytes. This episode is brought to you by Facebook. So you were scrolling on Marketplace and there it was, the bike you'd been searching for. You sent a message and it turned out the seller was super chatty, kind of funny, and an avid cyclist. The next thing you know, you're in a cycling crew. Well, a community cycling group. The thing about Facebook, you might find more than what you're looking for.

0:39From a browse to a bike ride, this summer, find more on Facebook. From athletic stuff like a full-court pickup game, swish, to athletic-ish stuff like a half-mile stroll. Get those steps in. Head to Sierra or Sierra.com for the brands you want at the prices that let you do it all. From athletic to athletic-ish, Sierra's got it. You know what they say, there's no such thing as bad press. But recently, I've been thinking about whether the same sentiment holds true for virality. Like, is there a bad way for songs to go viral? And if anyone knows the answer to this question, I think it's my guest today, Rebecca Black.

1:16After her song and music video Friday was released on YouTube at age 13, Rebecca quickly became the internet's biggest meme of the moment. But now, 15 years later, she's come back as a respected artist and DJ, working with some of the coolest and most cutting-edge names in music, like Slater, Dylan Brady, Dorian Electra, Big Frida, and more on her latest music. Today on the show, we're lucky to have her on to go deep on the nature of virality for music, how it's changed over time, and if there really is a bad way for songs to go viral.

1:53Welcome back to On The Record, a music business podcast from Billboard and Sickbird Productions. I'm your host, Kristen Robinson, and today I'm joined by the one and only Rebecca Black. Ahead of her new album, Age of the Exhibitionist, out September 4th, I wanted to have Rebecca on to talk about virality, the phenomenon that propelled her and so many others after her into the spotlight. But did it all happen too fast? As you might remember, her time in the limelight was not a kind one. Making the music video for Friday started out as a gift from her mother who wanted to help her teenage daughter explore her interest in music.

2:27It then turned her life upside down. But to date now, Friday has earned 181 million plays on YouTube alone, and just in time for its 15th anniversary, it was certified platinum by the RIAA. In more recent years, however, Black has emerged from the shadow of Friday by first reclaiming the song with a tongue-in-cheek hyperpop remix and then proving to the world that she is in fact a very talented artist with a clear voice of her own with new music. Some highlights from her recent career include a recent cover of Addison Rae's Fame is a Gun for Triple J, projects like 2025's Salvation, 2023's Let Her Burn, and a Coachella Doolab set that I can't get out of my head.

3:08With all that being said, let's go ahead and talk to Rebecca about virality. Rebecca Black, Welcome to On The Record. Thanks for being here. Thanks for having me. I am really excited that you're here because this is one of those topics that I've wanted to cover since the show got started about a year ago. I wrote down this master list of all these things that I wanted to cover. And every episode we do a different topic about the music industry. And one of the ones top of my list was virality. And I had written down, I found my old list. I wanted to talk to you about it because I just feel like you get it better than pretty much anyone.

3:41So this is perfect. Early investor. Early investor, I guess. Well, yeah, no, I'm very excited to be talking about this topic because, I mean, this is just kind of like how a lot of artists get started now, especially like in an age of TikTok. People go viral, it seems like, every single day. This happened to you very early on in your career and earlier than a lot of people experienced that level of virality. And I was thinking about the idea of how, you know, they say like there's no such thing as bad press. I'm wondering if you think, is there such a thing as bad virality? I feel like everyone would have a different opinion on it.

4:18And my experience with virality, my first experience at least with it, was something that I don't know if it really exists anymore. Okay. And I, with how much the internet has changed over the last 15 years, I just don't know, right? Because I think unless somebody gave me that exact experience again today in this culture of like there being just so, not just so many more social media platforms, but the vastness of each of them has grown obviously exponentially. like I felt like we still had a little bit stronger of a monoculture going on you know in 2011 but also at the same time there were just like all of these untapped pieces of the internet that were much more like secluded like things like 4chan and oh yeah those types of things like weren't as common as like for example like now like my dad goes like oh just look it up on reddit or ask chat or whatever and I'm that was such obviously like in a foreign concept at the time virality and its experience can feel very bad because especially in an age where our algorithms have gotten stronger and stronger and more like sharply molded to who we are your experience of the internet is so hyper personal to you and what you're looking for and back in the day and in my experience when I was a kid what was happening on the internet was happening everywhere yeah you know so it's a great point yeah it's a great point I don't I don't know I mean there's definitely like bad and bad and good versions of virality objectively but I don't know if I don't know if it's one or the other yeah well okay so take me back so it's been now 15 years since you released Friday and it blew up and became truly like I do feel like there was a monoculture back then I feel like everyone did see it or at least the perception from my vantage point feels like it was but we're also the same age we're all like questioning our yeah we're like did everyone see it but I think about that all the time where now I feel like there's so much more awareness of how we use the internet versus back then it was just like well this is happening yeah yeah but uh walk me through how the song got made in the first place because it was your your mom wanted to help you like make music right and like set you up with a song or tell me about that I was just a kid who was always like pursuing something I mean I think my parents especially my mom raised me and my brother with like one goal which was like have find your passion do your passion I mean she's a veterinarian like she her life was built out of this like very succinct fulfilled passion of hers and and so that was just like the thing that she put us to bed with every night and mine just was always arts and theater and music and um I was I was 13 like I was just living my life you know in Anaheim at the time and uh I happened to know somebody who was equally probably as passionate and like you know delusionally um what's the word I'm looking for I don't know just like excited by performing as I was and she had done a little thing over the summer with this company and I just like asked her about it and asked her you know what it was and then my mom saw it as a an opportunity of like this is something that will help Rebecca just experience what she just give her something to put on a resume one day of like recording studio experience or it was just something that she kind of saw no limit to creating opportunities to build that passion you know whether it was for me or my brother my brother was like probably like club soccer at the time or whatever his equal version of that was and yeah that was kind of all it was meant to be and all of the the actual kind of like industry selling things that you know were part of that deal were like after thoughts for me at least it was more just like I I will take any opportunity to get to do what I love right totally and this is just like one of those things that you know whatever happens with it is not relevant I just want to do it yeah to experience it yeah and I was lucky enough to do that yeah I mean like when you're 13 you don't know anything about how the industry works I used to think that I knew like I was like okay I've heard of Capitol Records like that's a thing but you don't actually even know what a record label does at that time it's like maybe a vague awareness I think that was like the probably the the extent of my knowledge was like I was a fan of Justin Bieber and I knew who Scooter Braun was but could I tell you what he did or why he was there?

9:23No, but that was like, you know, but it was kind of that, that beginning of an era where, you know, a little bit more understanding was happening. And I, forever, like a million of these companies have existed around the world, um, who credibility aside, like they are there for a kid passionate enough and a parent willing enough to do that. So yeah, that, that really was, you know what it was meant to be um and what was that like first few days of having it online did was it nearly instant when people started to recognize the song okay no no I mean it was something that like we shot over Christmas break or something like that um actually randomly we shot it on a January 6th I don't know why I remember that a little bit before that day was relevant um yeah no I don't know why I remember that but anyways life is weird in that way but it was something that like as soon as we did it like I felt like okay well like I got to do what I wanted to do I got to be on a set for the first time um or one of the kind of first times other than again like a friend's parents random furniture commercial when I was like six like I I was just always, you know, excited by opportunity and trying to understand if, you know, this was something I wanted to do.

10:50And then it went online like a month later and it went online. And I remember my initial reaction just being like way more focused on my own insecurities. I was picking up on myself than anything to do with like the video or the song, because that wasn't, you know, I didn't write the song. I didn't I didn't creatively impact anything about that. Like I was there to show up and do my job as a performer. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of like it's kind of like you were saying that you were really interested in theater at that time. Like it's kind of like, OK, someone came, plopped me in. I'm the actor here, almost like delivering the song.

11:31Is that kind of what it felt like where it's like you're handed a song? And yeah, yeah. Again, I was more I was more interested in just learning. Like I was more interested in understanding how all of this worked and is it something that one day, you know, far down the line I would maybe get to explore. I think like at the time my focus was like, how do I get the, you know, best resume for when I apply to like Tisch at, you know, NYU or how do I, how do I, you know, increase my opportunity and like getting into Juilliard? Like you just don't know at the time, right? Like you don't, I didn't have someone guiding me.

12:07I didn't have parents who like set that up for me or had experience like I again my family's veterinarians. Okay when you first started to notice that things started picking up online and it was actually starting to get some attention I'm wondering if like you initially saw this as like this is going to be a great way to launch pad a career or were you it sounds like you weren't really thinking about a career yet when that when that happened. No that was just never the expected outcome. Because as much as I was like, delusionally optimistic about performing in my passion, like, that's another level of delusion.

12:44To think that like, this one thing that I'm doing is gonna make me a star, you know, like, yeah, no, I mean, I think when it happened, I've talked about this kind of shock and just immediate, you're, I went from feeling like I was so comfortable within my little world of like being a 13 year old because that's all that's all you're supposed to care about as a middle schooler are like is the person that you have a crush on talking to you and do you like what you're doing you know between the hours of seven and three when you're at school those were my my biggest concerns so it just felt really confusing and and it also I think when virality happens to you, it's really hard, just as hard as it is now, I feel like, to kind of maneuver through your own algorithm.

13:34Like, it's very hard, even back in the day, it was hard, to understand the reality of what's happening, because numbers are really hard to put into perspective, especially when they grow so quickly. It's interesting. I mean, so what was it like in your real life at that point? Did the virality kind of cross over into your real life where people are talking about it at school and in your community? At first, no. But I mean, God, it's hard to like remember. Yeah, no, that's fair. That's fair. details um because it was so long ago but uh I mean like yes and no I think there were maybe moments at school that everybody was trying to just like understand what was going on right and kids are kids and so um and there were no real like touchstone moments for anybody to really look at in that world and I think everyone was trying to understand what was happening like whether or not it was like a good or bad thing I think everyone was just like whoa and my my life changed and it didn't change like it didn't change in the sense that my family life stayed really similar you know I didn't like I wasn't plopped into like an LA mansion with a massive team of you know people who were knew exactly what to do with me like no it was me and my parents and like some questionable people kind of, I'm sure in their emails, trying to, you know, take advantage of the opportunity and them just trying to understand what the hell was going on at all.

15:16And then there was me like still showing up to school and just trying to do it, but also field the opportunities that I got, especially at that time. I don't know what it's like now. And it's probably no better, you know, but there was nobody, nobody walks in as like your guardian an angel and tells you this is this is how you protect yourself this is how you protect your family and and also this is what you do strategically so in terms of making decisions like my parents oftentimes left it to me if I just wanted to do anything at all like my parents also were not taking this as some moment for themselves they were like that's great I mean yeah I'm really lucky to have parents that really, really did do their best and do their job as parents before anything else.

16:09But yeah, the only reason we were doing it is because I was like, I guess, I don't know. I don't know what this is. I'm supposed to, I'm just taking it one decision at a time. And as a kid, again, you have no perspective or real anything. It was just like, well, let's get to tomorrow and I guess see how we feel and then go from there. Yeah. Yeah. Something that I've thought a lot about recently is artists today have like such a deep digital footprint whereas back in the day like let's say 20th century artists they still had to go through like all this like kind of grind years of finding themselves artist development but that stuff like is really not something that you could find ever um you know I'm sure the Rolling Stones played a million shows trying to refine their craft figure out which songs were working which songs weren't before they got good and to become the Rolling Stones that we all know.

17:00Of course. But for any artist in the 21st century, there's like this huge backlog of like everything they've ever done. And I've even found that with myself. I did release a few singing videos on YouTube that did not go as viral as yours. And I actually had to delete them recently because I was like, I cannot have people finding this. But I wonder, like, did you ever think about changing your digital footprint? I know some artists have thought about like, I'm going to delete some of the songs from my past or some of the videos I did before. Was that ever a consideration for you? Definitely. Okay.

17:31Definitely. I mean, like multiple identity crisis a day is like the normal amount, I think, for a teenager, right? Like I was just beginning that era of my life, regardless of Friday. I was just entering like the field of understanding how I was being perceived by the people around me and my friends and my own inner circle, like my own little pond. Right. And so to then just like open the floodgates of what that means with also like very strong opinions being hurled back at me was extremely confusing. So honestly, like, yeah, I mean, there's been a million conversations I've had with myself and other people's opinions that have come across my desk that have told me, you know, I should change my name or I mean, there were countless hours in high school that like I hid behind my little Tumblr page that having just like something that felt just like my own and like I could experience it without having some type of like placard already across me was really, really nice.

18:45But my experience, especially now that I'm 29 and it's been so long, is the more that I have stopped trying to force a narrative one way and just like made the past like the most comfortable subject for me, the easier my life has been for other people to understand. And like the easier I think the nature of it is in the room. Yeah. Like I think that I really for many years dictated this like discomfort around the subject or around my past or this like what's the word I'm looking for? Like just uncomfortability and like an undecided feeling about it. And so the more that I just kind of said, okay, we're going to stop making this like the thing that impacts all my other decisions, especially in my career.

19:45Yeah. Yeah. Friday is now certified platinum, which is a huge deal for any song. And I'm wondering if hitting milestones like this has changed your perception of the song now that you're 15 years out. I guess so. I think the milestone of Friday hitting platinum, like obviously is a huge deal. And I do feel like a sense of wow over something like that happened, even though it took 15 years. Like, you know, hey, platinum is platinum. You know, I guess. Platinum is platinum, details aside. I think that it would hold a different kind of weight if it was a song that I wrote and felt as that I felt as connected to as like my new music.

20:30So, you know, I'll always leave room for more milestones in the future. But I think really what has changed the feeling of that song for me is really the like in-person reactions I get to experience around it. Like every time I go on tour, I play Friday or I acknowledge it in some way, at least. And the reaction is so like fiercely positive around that. Over the years, that's only just like inspired me to find new ways to connect to that song. Because I think like if I were to hear like the beginning of the audio of the original start somewhere, like I would be just as jarred as anybody else. Because it sounds crazy.

21:11but when I mix it into songs of mine like sugar water cyanide or like give it like a really hard beat in my DJ sets like that feels really fun yeah for me yeah well I thought it was a stroke of brilliance when you decided to do the hyper pop remix of Friday I mean Dylan Brady I was obsessed with Dylan Brady at that time I still am always will be um and to have him and Big Frida and 303 I mean like how did how did you decide I'm committing to this we're owning this and we're going in a totally different direction, totally left field with it. I have to give credit to another artist that's on that song, that remix, Dorian Electra.

21:48Oh, that's the one I didn't mention. I mean, there's like 50 people on that. It was a good time to get them because it was 2020. So everyone was just like, give me something to do, y 'all. And they really came into my life at a point where I was kind of at a crossroads. I felt like I had been trying to get to a place in my life where I was making things that felt really connecting to me. But there was definitely like a big gap in my kind of time pursuing this career from Friday until then, where I was definitely misunderstood by a lot of people I was working with and, you know, really kind of healing my own issues and my confidence.

22:39And I was like being a teenager and going through all the trials and tribulations of that. And I met Dorian and a lot of people who were in like that hyper pop scene, like Umruh, um, Laura Les and Dylan, um, and, and so many artists in that scene that like really just like welcomed me into their world at that And just like hung out with me. I love it. And I had never, I guess, felt so welcomed into any side of the music world before that. I think I really felt like very isolated. I felt like a weirdo. And I felt, you know, kind of like the last person you'd want to talk to in a room. So just to be treated so kindly really showed.

23:28And we had a lot of conversations about Friday and kind of my beginnings. and seeing people have different reactions other than just like wow that's like some baggage you got that we got to get rid of and seeing it as something that could be embraced just like inspired me to ask Dylan and ask Dorian and then go to Frida and 303 these were also all people I like had some kind of existing relationship with too so um it felt you know yeah it felt like it made a lot of sense for them to be a part of it um and yeah I think that really like kicked off just the the making it into something that like I could control and that I could lead the the uh discussion on without it feeling like here's my sob story or here's my like again like you know sixth finger that I've had this whole time that I've tried to hide away.

24:24Yeah. And that made it really fun. Yeah, I mean, I thought it was brilliant, truly brilliant. And I just am a big hyper-pop fan, so it was just fun to see it get that spin. Thank you. But what's also really interesting about your career, I was looking through your recent discography, actually all the way back, and you're fully independent. Yes. Okay, so how did you make that call? Because I'm sure there were so many times when you could have done the big label deal, tried to do the big major thing. Why did you want to be independent? Well, most of the time, because it was the only choice. Okay, fair enough.

24:58Okay. Okay. I think, you know, the industry has changed. I've watched the industry change a million times over over the last 15 years. I've definitely been in conversations that felt like maybe the label, it was time for me to do it at very, very different points in my career. One of them like pretty recently. And I think the reality is, is over the last six years has felt like when I really started to like find my way in this industry and build a career that like really connected with me and connected with other people. And that has been like the success of it has been due to it being like an extremely small team of people that without me having to explain myself like understand what I want to do yeah and they let me do it like it was the first time in my life I had a manager that just you want to make a video or you want to make an album like okay go here's some like ideas of people to work with or new connections but like you don't have to use any of them and whatever you come back with we'll work with yeah that freedom was what really allowed me to like build something for other people to grab onto at all that hopefully felt like actually unique or actually some version of allowing for people to see myself.

26:24So building that like really, really small team and allowing for just like a few cooks in that kitchen to make choices that we all, we say a lot of the time, like we, we go for the no-brainer decisions you know interesting um that is way easier with a small group and I've found especially in the landscape where it feels like and I can't speak to it because like I've actually never been signed to a label so I don't have that experience but even just from getting like quite close to making that um decision and going in that direction um it feels like in order for that that to work, you have to A, either have people in that world equally understand you, right?

27:12As much as the people closest to you on your team do and allow you to make creative decisions. Or you have to be at a level of success where like there is no risk that a label has to take. Yeah. That's actually such a good point. And success to labels is dreams. Yes. It's commercial. It's purely commercial. And I don't want to say who built that system. um but i i think that the benefits that they reap from artists uh require like a very high level of success that again like i just i've never felt like i've uh come to a place where all those things felt like no-brainer decisions i guess in terms of being with the label maybe one day you know um well i think it's it's so interesting to to have come this far independent, but I think it's a testament to the fact that the industry has changed.

28:08I mean, if you think 15, 20 years ago, even the industry and success in the industry was mostly relegated by gatekeepers. You actually had a very interesting instance of early success or early visibility with Friday because the mass of people, the listeners, the viewers decided that they wanted to watch that video. And that is kind of how it goes now. But back then even a lot of success was predicated on this gatekeeper at this radio station wanting to play the song right um this person wanting to do an interview and I think that that has changed and so I always am curious to hear what artists think about the record industry today and what record labels can offer them because in a day when like the audience really decides whether or not they want to consume something the the levers that our label has to pull pull have really decreased definitely definitely and I think that that is like the best way to describe how the industry has changed more than anything else is like no longer are we being told what to listen to no longer are we like turning on the radio to find something to listen to like you find something to listen to in like a deep corner of the internet and then you you hope that one day the you know you fight for it enough that the radio plays it right and like that feels like such a different experience and I think we've seen so many different kinds of artists either find intuition that way or struggle to adapt obviously labels I think are the the things that like they're the place that they serve within the industry is definitely still very viable and there are like deep corners or very obvious corners of the industry that they kind of still carry radio actually being one of those for sure it is expensive to go to radio yeah I just feel very encouraged that it feels like one it feels like the artists that are connecting are with audiences nowadays are ones that have something to say um and those artists can be anyone and anything and they can have had as many years of history um as somebody like me and you know continue to redefine themselves on their own terms um I feel so excited about you know so many of the artists that are coming up right now and seeing pop as a whole be redefined as something that like has real substance and um not not like when I when I got started I felt like even the fact that I wanted to continue and like become a pop artist um when I was a teenager after Friday became this like why do you want to do that and how are you supposed to um like add credibility to yourself if you're just like gonna go be a pop star whereas like now like I think we see so many artists really carving a lane in pop that really means something and has something to say so I love I love seeing the ways the industry has changed yeah it's they kind of caught up with you in the end we'll see we're not at the end this is true this is true and that's a perfect segue to say that you have a new album coming out and it's yeah yes and it's called the age of the exhibitionist and it's out september 4th and i'm wondering now what your goals are and what is like the picture of success that you see for yourself given you've had a moment of like true like ubiquitous virality in the past do you still hope for virality now or do you almost hope against it?

31:41Well, anytime that like I or anybody else in my life has ever tried to beat the hands of the internet and guess where something's going to land every time anyone is wrong on both the positive and negative side of that, I think if I spent any time of my life trying to recapture or capture in any kind of way like what happened to me I would I would be wasting a lot of my own energy and I would only hope to create like experiences that feel like something is happening you know for the first time for me because that's what makes me feel young and excited yeah what I what I want for myself and my career is to make pieces of music and pieces of art that go alongside it, whether it be a music video or a show or any kind of, you know, moment within this industry.

32:39I'd hope to make something that like is something that people can enjoy for a long time. Yeah, that's kind of all I care about. And something that, you know, will have some meaning or connection to somebody else. Yeah. And how closely do you watch the internet now for reactions to your music? I love the internet. I mean, I'm on it all the time. Same. Trying to, you know, understand how something gets received, especially in the process before an album comes out. You really get to understand people's reactions to something from a completely different perspective as you have to your own album. Like people hearing the singles in, you know, chronological order of how we decided them to be is a completely different like listening experience than the one that I've had.

33:31I like I always have resonated with that that statement. I think like Kevin Parker said it once, which is like I just I'll never get to hear my own song for the first time. And I will spend a year making a song just like trying to get that perspective. So I'm always, you know, really curious to hear what people have to say in that regard. I love seeing people put the pieces together because, again, I've got like everything. Yeah. And I wish I could just like give it to everyone at once. But seeing people put the pieces together is really fun. Well, OK. It sounds like you have a pretty positive experience with having people consume your music.

34:10And I feel like there's I imagine there's some artists and I feel like I've heard people talk about this before. Just kind of this fear of like when you release something, it becomes everyone else's and it is no longer your own. Do you ever feel that way? That's the best feeling in the world. To give it away? Yeah. Well, you have to. That's like the whole point to me. I have heard people say that, you know, a million times, which is like, and I've probably even said it before, where it's like, oh, but, you know, you hold on to this thing so tight and then it becomes everybody else's to take on.

34:43And yes, I do have those feelings, too, where it's like, I am so lucky I get to make this music that I do in like such a, especially this album was such a combined group of people that like really, we made every choice so intentionally and with, you know, all of our kind of ideas and references and feelings. And people, once you give it to somebody else, they could see it in a way that you could have never even imagined or tie it to some comparison or reference that you would have been like, what? Yeah. Okay. All right. Or even lyrically or anything. But that is like the joy of music. Like I enjoy so much music not because I'm trying to understand the artist.

35:30I enjoy it because it connects with something in me. And that's how music really moves people. If you're a songwriter, composer, or music publisher, joining a performing rights organization is essential for your career. There is only one PRO where you truly belong. ASCAP. ASCAP represents over 1.1 million music creators and publishers. Their mission? Ensuring you get paid royalties whenever your music is streamed, broadcast, or performed live. So what sets them apart? ASCAP is the only American PRO founded and governed by music creators. Because they put creators first, 90 cents of every dollar they collect goes directly back to their songwriters, composers, and publishers, not to private equity or major corporations.

36:18Last year alone, they collected a record-breaking total of about$2 billion on behalf of their members. Beyond royalties, ASCAP supports you with career building workshops, cutting edge technology, and vital advocacy in Washington, protecting your rights in an age of AI. Writers can join for free. Visit ASCAP.com slash on the record to get started. Going back to what we were saying before, we were talking about how a lot of gatekeepers have fallen. It really matters what your audience finds to be interesting and true and what they connect with. I wonder though, as an artist, Just like how much stock should you take in what fans have to say?

36:56Like, should you let fans drive your creative decisions ever? Well, definitely not all of them. Yeah. Because then your fans should all be credited in the liner notes of the album. I always talk about that. I feel really inspired when I'm on tour to create new things because like you get the reaction. And it, again, just like allows you new perspective on the music for the first time. and I often tour like right after an album comes out. So I'm just like full of like all these different perspectives and thoughts and, you know, I'm out living a lot of life in that time. So I'm just like kind of writing for when I'm tucked away on the next album.

37:36I think it can really serve you as an artist, especially an artist like myself. When I'm making certain songs, I'm thinking about my audience because I'm thinking about me as a fan in a way. And I think about songs that have felt like somebody has made it for me, which for me are songs either in like my past, like songs like Salvation, which is a song about really owning your own queerness and sexuality in the face of, you know, people who might not understand you. A lot of my music's about not being understood. So there's something there. But yeah. And songs like Metamorphia off the new album are also like meant to be a message in a way and meant to hopefully send some kind of hope or inspire some kind of thing that I need as much for myself as maybe, you know, what my understanding of my audience might need to.

38:31Yeah. A lot of what I make is like really also just made to build the story of the album as a whole or build the story of the moment as a whole. Yeah. So do you consider yourself to be pretty squarely like an album artist? Are you thinking about the entire project with every song? I like both types of things. And I think I could, I'm always looking to learn how to be, you know, a better version of all those kinds of artists. I really definitely have enjoyed with this album, creating something that feels very cohesive, but also very vast at the same time. And I really enjoy that long, drawn out experience of putting out a record and living in it and allowing for it to simmer and then seeing how, you know, people over the course of a year or two will sit with it.