Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - August 1st, 2025

25:22You know, some large manufacturers like Toyota, for example, or Honeywell are using AI on the factory floor to provide information to the people working on the factory floor to improve their operational ability and also to provide access for their customers to engineering and technical support documents around the product. So make it easier for customers to navigate and find the information they need. We're seeing some hospitals, as I talked about, using AI to help provide physicians access to whether it's guidelines or any background information. In addition, we're seeing hospitals use AI to automatically transcribe the communications with their patients.

26:07So what AI will do is actually take the notes automatically and then upload it into the systems that it needs to. What that does is it frees up time for the medical professionals to do what they do best, which is deal with patients. We're seeing small businesses that are using AI to create marketing materials and do that much more efficiently. We're seeing large retailers like Wayfair that are using AI to create more personalized experiences for their customers when you come to the website. So you can imagine, as you're using Wayfair, you can imagine how the furniture items will look in your environment.

26:42and that provides a better shopping experience for customers. So we're seeing a wide swath of ways that AI is being used in companies. I'm so glad you mentioned kind of the medical area and what they're doing, because I think a lot of folks come on our air and talk to the Bloomberg audience and talk about how AI might significantly impact not just hospitals, but just how we get medical care. You are the former CEO of Illumina, and I think about DNA sequencing and all of the information and data that could potentially improve how we are treated when it comes to healthcare. How are you thinking about that space and what it might mean for Google Cloud and demand there?

27:21Yeah, I think AI is going to have a very big impact in a number of ways across healthcare, right? So, we talked about some ways where it's helping in the delivery of care by freeing up medical professionals from administrative tasks and using more of their time to actually interact with patients. In addition, it's also helping medical professionals, you know, get access to the information they need across a whole swath of information. So, you know, they need to be able to stay on top of guidelines as they emerge, new research that's being published, as well as all the information on the patient.

27:54And increasingly, you know, we're getting more and more personalized information on a patient. You talked about genomics, there are a lot of images, as well as previous lab tests. And so what AI can do is sort of take all that information and present it in a more digestible way so that you can make better decisions. In addition, AI can also help, you know, earlier in the process of drug development. We've seen fantastic advances with tools like AlphaFold, which allows you to, you know, deduce a 3D protein structure across hundreds of millions of protein types. What that does then is that allows you to identify maybe new druggable targets that allow you to treat diseases.

28:34AI can also help bring information together, you know, the genomic information, the phenotypic information, you know, the imaging information, and help us get better understanding of what causes diseases and how they develop. And that could give us new insights that allow us to think about how we can treat those diseases better. So in almost every part of the healthcare industry, you can see how AI can help improve that industry. We're speaking with Francis D'Souza, Chief Operating Officer over at Google Cloud. Francis, I want to talk a little bit about competition. For years, Amazon has been number one, according to our Bloomberg Intelligence team and data from IDC in 2023.

29:13AWS had about 47 % of the infrastructure as a service market share. Microsoft in second place was 16%. And then Google coming in with about 6%. How do you get to number two and then number one? What's really interesting is that as I talk to customers, with their things, there's a convergence of two really big, important spaces. One is the cloud spaces you talked about, and two, AI. So nearly every customer conversation I have now and prospect conversation I have is really all about AI and how it'll impact businesses. And we are the only hyperscaler that actually has our own AI stack. So if you think about every part of the AI technology stack, Google has leading technology.

29:57So, for example, on the chip side, we're one of the largest partners in the world with NVIDIA on GPUs. But we also have our own technology, TPUs, that are very highly performant, and we run them in our data centers. In terms of the models, we work with a number of other model providers. So if you go into our model garden, you can access models from companies like Anthropic and DeepSeek. But we also have the world's leading model with Gemini 2.5, which is performing really well on the top of the leaderboards in almost every part of AI. And so here, too, we provide our own leading technologies, and it's Gemini, but it's also our image models, our video models, our time series models, our weather models.

30:38And then we also provide our own applications on top of that, like Agent Space, that allow companies to easily develop their own agents. And then we have a leading cybersecurity portfolio. And so where we are differentiated in the market is that as we talk to customers, we're really the only hyperscaler that can talk about our own native AI stack that's leading technologies in each part of the stack, as well as our cloud. And that's playing really well. And that's driving a lot of the results that you're seeing. I got to say, it's the thinking models, the Gemini 2.5 that really kind of are blowing everybody's minds.

31:11Hey, one thing I want to ask you, speaking of customers, Tim and I, full disclosure, we talk about it a lot, are a little bit obsessed with Waymo. How much is Waymo using Google Cloud? I'm just curious in terms of keeping that all going and running. Yeah, I totally understand why you love Waymo. I love Waymo, too, living in San Francisco. I've been using it for a few years, and my daughters and I love it. As you can imagine, being sister parts of Google, we leverage technologies that Google Cloud is building as well as DeepMind is building. And so, as you could imagine, there's really close interactions from a technology perspective across these different parts of Google.

31:50Hey, just 30 seconds left. Security. As we know, your former background, Symantec, you understand the importance of security specifically. And I'm just curious, what do you keep top of mind when you think about the security of Google Cloud and keeping it secure? Yeah, as you point out, security is a really important area for us to focus on. And it's a core part of the value that we deliver to our customers in terms of providing a very resilient, protected cloud. There are a number of things that are top of mind for us and for our customers as we talk about security, especially in a world of AI.

32:27One is it's important that security companies are leaning deep into leveraging AI to improve their security capabilities. So we offer agents, for example, that customers can deploy as part of their security operations center, as part of their threat intelligence gathering. And so we're also doing research on how AI can be leveraged by the bad actors and think about how you can stay on top of providing defenses for things like, you know, altered images and videos and deep fakes. It's also important to our customers that the security we provide works multi-cloud. So not just for Google Cloud, but that they can have the same security posture for workloads that they have on other clouds as well.

33:10And so that's an important part of the conversation too. So provide leading edge technologies, stay on top of AI and the expanding sort of threat landscape that opens up, and then also make sure that whatever you give us works across clouds. So glad we could get some time with you. Francis D'Souza, he's the chief operating officer at Google Cloud, former CEO of Illumina, and also former president at Symantec, where he oversaw the security and data management portfolio. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app.

33:45You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say, Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130. Shares of AstraZeneca rose this past week right after it reported better than expected sales and rising profit for the second quarter, spurred by its stable of cancer medicines and growth in the U.S. The company recently pledged$50 billion by 2030 in both production and research and development in the United States as it seeks to show President Trump's administration it is serious about making medicines locally. A few days later, President Donald Trump sent letters to 17 of the world's largest drug makers, demanding that they charge the U.S.

34:24what other countries pay for new medicines. The letter added that they immediately lower what they charge Medicaid for existing drugs and guarantee that future medicines be launched and remain at prices on par with what they cost overseas. On top of that, U.S. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick also said that the U.S. will impose a massive tariff if pharmaceuticals are not made in the U.S. For the latest, head on over to Bloomberg.com. Tariffs certainly top of mind for many global pharmaceutical executives. One of them, Pascal Surio. He is AstraZeneca's chief executive officer, and he joined us alongside Bloomberg News health reporter Madison Muller in studio.

35:02I mean, I think first of all, it's important to really think about what every country would want to do. Every country would want to make sure they can secure the health of their citizens. It's a question of national security. So nobody should be surprised that the president wants to reshore manufacturing of pharmaceutical products. I personally have seen this happen since several years, and we decided several years ago to increase our manufacturing footprint in the U.S. so we can actually manufacture medicines for American patients in America. Every country would want to do that, and a big country like America, of course, can afford to do it.

35:40You said that you made that decision several years ago. How much of the$50 billion pledge was planned before the president threatened these tariffs? Well, we've been pursuing this strategy of manufacturing in China for China, in the US for the US since five, six years. And quite frankly, COVID actually showed us we were on the right track because we all saw what happened during COVID. And so we accelerated this movement. And so our$50 billion commitment is a commitment to R &D, but also a commitment to manufacturing. We announced together with the governor of Virginia a multi-billion dollar investment in manufacturing in Virginia.

36:16And the governor of Virginia has been incredibly fast with this team, 33 days to reach an agreement. It's incredible. So we are very happy to be there. We are building a new R &D site in Kendall Square, Cambridge, Massachusetts, with 2 ,500 scientists that will be working there. And there's more to come. We are just finishing the build of a self-serapi manufacturing site in Roqueville, Maryland. We've expanded in California. So it's a sort of multi-prange effort across many states across the U.S. You know, you've said that Virginia obviously has made it easy to make manufacturing investments there.

36:52And North Carolina is pretty similar. Are there other states in the U.S. where you're having these types of good conversations that are, you know, incentivizing businesses like yours to invest? Well, you know, it's hard for me to point at any state that is better than another. Let me just say that working with you. We have no problem in which states are better than others. We're all from different states. What do you want for, New York or New Jersey? Let me just say that a company like ours follows the science. So science is key. And so you need to be able to recruit the right scientists, the right engineers.

37:28And in Virginia, you can do this because you have some of the best universities. universities. The other part is dealing with partners in the public sector that understand us, that we trust each other, we can move fast. You know, I always tell people in our company, I talk about AstraZeneca speed, because there's a lot of competition, we need to move fast. I've learned Virginia speed, the governors move so quickly. So this is the kind of thing we want to see, whether it's in America, in a state or in a country, we want speed and we want people who understand how we think. You want speed. You want people to understand how you think.

38:01You said you want to follow the science. There's been criticism that Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the Secretary of Health and Human Services, has not necessarily always followed the science with his comments when it comes to medicine, when it comes to drugs, when it comes to vaccines. How do you look at that and his role there? Well, you know, I'm not here to actually get involved in political discourses. Let me just say that as a company, science is at the heart of everything we do. The reason we have such a large oncology pipeline in particular and beyond this is because we're focused on science for the last 10, 12 years.

38:37And America is where science in our industry is happening. And that's why it's so critical to preserve this biosciences leadership the U.S. has globally. China is also becoming a very big source of innovation in our industry. Europe, unfortunately, is falling behind for a variety of reasons. So innovation is happening here. We need to keep this going. We need to actually continue supporting the leadership. And that's why we invest$50 billion in this country, not only in manufacturing, but also in R &D. What about China? I'd love for you to kind of explore that a little bit. What are you investing in and building out in China?

39:14And what might surprise our audience about the innovation that's happening in China, especially when it comes to pharmaceuticals? Yeah, I think my great question, I think we need to start with the hypothesis, the assumption that basically the more products or the more innovation exists in the world, the better it is for everybody, for every patient. Because if you're a patient with cancer, the only thing that you care about is to be cured, if you can be cured, right? And so innovation in China has really ramped up very rapidly in the last few years. China has gone from making generics to MeToo's to MeToo Plus, what we call MeToo Plus in our industry, to truly innovate these days and innovate in new technologies, in cell therapy, in sRNA, in many, many technologies.

40:00And so China has become the second engine of innovation, not as big as the U.S. The U.S. remains the leader in that field, but China is ramping up very quickly. Is the administration with some of its, some would say, questionable disruptive policies, there's been a lot of reporting about scientists kind of leaving the United States and going elsewhere. Are you seeing signs of that, whether it's to Europe, to China, to elsewhere? Because of not supporting, you know, academia and academic universities. Some of that seems to be coming back, but we're curious. In these things, it's always difficult to discern what is anecdotal versus what is systemic.

40:39What we have seen in China is really a substantial return of scientists from the U.S., but also from the U.K. and elsewhere, but not because of policy, simply because they could see opportunities in China. There is money, there is capital that can be invested. The Chinese are willing to take risks. The government has facilitated the return of the scientists, and they've come back. But I can tell you that a lot of the scientists we work with in China, in biotech companies that we partner with, many of these people are American. They're American-Chinese. I mean, they go back and forth, back and forth.

41:13They are a bridge between the U.S. and China. But they've gone to China because of the opportunities to create a company, be funded, take risk, and hopefully be successful. And by and large, they've been quite successful. I want to say, though, that the leadership remains with the U.S. And we need to maintain this, of course. I mean, the country needs to maintain this. There's been some concern, though, that companies like yours, you know, not necessarily Astra, but big pharmaceutical companies are going to China for most of their biotech deals now. You know, what would you say to that? And what would U.S.

41:51biotech companies need to do to sort of attract investments from you all? I mean, the first thing I would say is that if you're a patient, you don't care. What you want is a drug that will help you, right? So when we do a deal with a Chinese company, typically it's because they've discovered a product and they need help to globalize it. Because discovering something in a lab is one thing. It doesn't require a huge amount of money. It requires very talented people, but the capital requirement is limited. When you want to develop globally, then you need to scale. You need billions of dollars of investment in phase two, phase three.

42:29And you need to scale. You need the people, the expertise. So what we do is we license in the product and then we develop them globally and then bring them to patients. So the innovation started in China, but becomes a global medicine for everybody. So it really benefits everybody around the world. I want to go back to sort of a global domestic question, the idea of your listing. And the Times of London has said that AstraZeneca is looking to move its listing to the U.S. Are you going to do that? So you just share it with us. Yeah, we don't comment on rumors. And, you know, as a company over the last 10 years, we've had so many rumors.

43:09We don't comment on rumors. The only thing I would say really is the United States is really core to our company. By 2030, we expect 50 % of our revenue to come out of the United States. Today, it's 44%, 45%. We grew tremendously in the U.S. in the first half. The U.S. is the country that innovates, I just told you, but also the country that uptake the innovation faster. Patients benefit much faster. So we want to invest here and we want to grow here, and that is a very critical part of our company globally. Just curious in terms of growth. We've talked about earnings, and your cancer drugs are certainly important in terms of growth.

43:50Where do you see kind of the most significant growth trends when it comes to pharmaceuticals? We've spent the last, what is it, Madison, last couple of years talking about the obesity drugs and weight loss drugs. But where do you see it? We talk often about genes and genetic and immunotherapy. Where do you see the real growth coming in the next, I don't know, five to 10 years? It's a great question, but it's almost all of the above. I mean, of course, managing what I would call central or abdominal fat, because everybody talks about obesity. What really matters is how much fat do you have in your abdomens?

44:25that surrounds your liver, your pancreas, your heart, and creates inflammation and insulin resistance and all the consequences we can think about, hypertension and all this. So this is really a big epidemic globally. We need to address that, and that's what companies like Lilly and Novo are doing today, and we want to do this with all agents. But then, you know, we have development in antibody drug conjugates. We have developments by specific antibodies for cancer. One of the most exciting new technology is cell therapy, because cell therapy will apply to hematology cancers, but also potentially solid tumors and immune diseases.

45:10We have now cases, small numbers, early days, but small cases that young women who suffer from lupus, which is a terrible disease. can be cured. I have a family member who has lupus. Can be cured. I mean, these patients, their life is about taking drugs, steroids, with all the consequences you can imagine. Their organs are destroyed over time by the disease. They can be cured. You have people with myeloma that can be cured. And so as we progress this technology and make it more usable, more easily usable and more affordable, it can really transform many fields of medicine from oncology to immunology.

45:53I know you've had an amazing tenure at Astra, and there's sort of an obsession in the UK with your succession plans and what comes next. You know, not to say that you're leaving any time soon. We don't want you to go. We don't want you to go. What do you want to accomplish before you end your tenure at Astra? Well, one of the things that I wanted to do is have a great team, and I have a great team. That's it. I have really a fantastic team, and that's why nobody should worry about my succession. We have a great team and people who can succeed me. So that's, I think, one thing, and we constantly try to improve the team, not only my direct reports, but their direct reports and the company as a whole.

46:35Two is the second piece is almost unachievable because science is never going to be stopping. and the more I progress, the older I get, the more science gets exciting and the more excited you are. I mean, there's no better time to be in our industry than now. There's so much innovation, so much hope to cure diseases that cannot be cured today. And the last thing was really to finish our site in Cambridge because I keep joking internally. I want to have the two Cambridges, one in Cambridge, UK, one in Cambridge and Boston. But that's for the joke. But the most exciting really is the science and the pursuit of new technologies and new products that will make a difference and change the future of medicine.

47:24So those are the things I want to address. But I have to accept that some point biology is going to catch up with me. Unless you create a pill that keeps us going. I'm kind of keeping my fingers crossed. Exactly. GLP-1s, right? We think it's going to be cure-all. Pascal, we really enjoyed this. Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. All the time. I'm Pascal Sorio. He is AstraZeneca's chief executive officer. And of course, Bloomberg News' own health reporter, Madison Muller. Always a must read on the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg.com.

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50:17Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including the long and winding trip to FDA approval for one's psychedelic treatment. That trip, by the way, it's continuing. Plus, why the organization behind Burning Man's desert utopia is now facing an existential financial crisis. And jewelry from the roaring 20s making a comeback, giving the new Tesla diner a test drive, and the surprising complexity of a key fob. It's all in Bloomberg Pursuits later on this hour. First up this hour, a few weeks ago, Robert F. Kennedy Jr., the Secretary of Health and Human Services, said he could envision approval for psychedelic drugs as treatment for depression and trauma if clinical studies have been conducted.

50:59It comes as psychedelics are making inroads in deep red states like Texas, where former Trump cabinet secretary and ex-governor Rick Perry has thrown his full support behind the effort. That may have caught the attention of the team over at the publicly traded small cap psychedelic company Compass Pathways. They're in pursuit of FDA approval. Kabir Nath is the company's CEO. At Compass Pathways, we're a company in the final stages of developing synthetic psilocybin as a potential treatment for treatment-resistant depression, or what we call patients living with persistent depression. That's a big problem affecting some 3 million people in the U.S., and it's debilitating.

51:39Many of them are unable to work. The majority will have had some sort suicidal thoughts in the course of their depressive illness. So we're a leading psychedelic company, potentially the closest to regulatory approval. You've used the word potential twice. You said it's a potential treatment, and you said potentially you're a leading company there when it comes to FDA approval. Is it unproven? We have generated robust evidence now from two studies. The first was published a couple of years ago, and then just last month, we released more data from the first of our final stage studies. So what can I tell you about that?

52:16First, safety. This, we didn't see any unexpected safety signals in this treatment of patients living with persistent depression. And secondly, after just a single treatment, after six weeks, we saw a significant reduction in depressive symptoms. And just to emphasize that, because you'll be aware of the kind of the typical paradigm of antidepressants, something you take daily. This was a single treatment and with the effect measured after six weeks. Now, we already are two for two in terms of these trials, clinical trials that we've conducted, but we're continuing to see more evidence generated first in one of these late stage trials.

52:58And second, we have another study ongoing where we're also looking at the impact potentially of another treatment. We should point out that about a month ago when that study came out, the stock, your shares tumbled almost 50%, hitting a record low. What I guess I want to understand, so it was below what Wall Street expected. It did meet your goal, from what I understand, your company goal. But Wall Street was very disappointed. Tell us how this works. How does one psilocybin treatment kind of cure depression, persistent depression? it? Psilocybin you can think of as, if you like, a key. A key that unlocks a door or a set of doors in the brain.

53:42And while those doors are open, that enables the patient to work through some of their fixed negative thinking and potentially have relief from their depressive symptoms. To do that, there is a profound subjective experience. So there is a psychedelic experience that lasts six to eight hours. And as I say, during the course of that, the drug is working in such a way that it unlocks these doors and allows the patient to engage with some of those negative thoughts and potentially, as I say, get relief from those depressive symptoms. The fact is, as I say, we've seen, and what's amazing, that one single treatment can show sustained effects at least through to six weeks and potentially longer.

54:26In our earlier trial, our earlier clinical study that we did, we saw that for many patients that was sustained out to 12 weeks. What's many? How many? Forgive me, Tim. Like, I'm just curious, how many? So that was a study of around 230 patients of whom a significant number were on what we call the active dose of the medication. And what we saw was a quarter of them had from that single dose, they were actually sustained free of depression out to 12 weeks. And in this population of people who have typically tried multiple treatments and for whom very little is any longer working, that was a remarkable response.

55:02When patients do take this single dose, what is the environment that they're in during that six to eight hours? And are they guided in some way by therapists of sorts? It's a physically, it's a calm, comfortable setting. They have the option of eye shades, there's music playing, and there are appropriate safety safeguards in place. Psilocybin is a very inner-directed mechanism. So what actually happens is the patient has this profound influence, but while there is somebody in the room, it's largely silent. There is not directed therapy in the course of that intervention. How do you run an effective clinical trial for a drug that the experience is such that the person knows they've taken this drug rather than a placebo.

55:48Somebody who takes a placebo is not going to have a psychedelic reaction to the placebo. At Compass, we thought about this before we even started our studies. So our prior big study, the one I referenced with 230 patients, we designed that in such a way that there was the choice of three different doses of psilocybin. One was a low dose. A second was an intermediate dose. and in patients who've never had this experience before, that's truly confounding in terms that they cannot tell whether they got a medium dose or a high dose of that drug. This is important because as you say, otherwise it will be very obvious, but that design was very effective for that earlier stage study we did.

56:31And we've replicated that design in one of our late stage studies. We're talking with Kabir Nath. He's chief executive officer of Compass Pathways here in studio. You keep saying synthetic. What's the difference between synthetic and naturally occurring? So we are manufacturing a pill to the highest standards of purity, no contamination. We know exactly what is in the pill. This is a manufactured pill that we are treating with. So that you know exactly in terms of dosage. Is that what I'm saying? So if naturally occurring is different? Potentially. It is naturally occurring. Whereas well as it's synthetic, so we know exactly what's in it.

57:04We know the exact pill. What will it cost? It's premature to speculate on that at the moment. We're still conducting these final stages of our studies. But expensive? And would it be something, I mean, if you get FDA approval, is it safe to make the assumption that it would be covered? The whole premise for founding Compass Pathways was to enable that form of broad access. So the reason that the company has gone through doing these rigorous, robust clinical studies so that we, is exactly so that we can discuss that with the FDA, potential for regulatory approval, and then, if we're fortunate enough to get there, the chance to negotiate with both commercial insurers and government payers.

57:46Let's remind ourselves that these three million people that I referred to, they are relying on insurers, commercial insurers, and government payers to actually cover their drugs. I believe we will be able to demonstrate significant value, given how different this is from other treatments available today in depression. Kabir, Carol mentioned that the Associated Press reported earlier this month that RFK Jr. recently talked to members of Congress about psychedelic therapy for depression and trauma. Apart from that, have you seen any real signs of support for the administration for this new class of drugs or type of type of treatment?

58:23We have had support from the FDA throughout our development process. We have breakthrough designation. So even before Robert F. Kennedy Jr. took over as HHS? We have had a motivated and engaged agency. We're excited to see the voices from HHS, from Veterans Affairs today, suggesting that they also see the potential for this class. And we're very happy to work to see how we could potentially accelerate access, while at the same time ensuring that we continue to generate really good, robust, good evidence that these are safe and effective. Talk to us about timeline, though. I feel like we've been, I know Bloomberg's been reporting on this class of drugs and treatments, and I think we've all seen pieces that.

59:04For years. Right, for a long time, that for people who were other treatments don't seem to be making a change for them. So, I don't know. Is it another few years? Is it the end of this year? Is it the end of next year? And is it, yeah, that the Trump administration could somehow shuttle this through much more quickly? I think there are clearly people in the current administration who, as I say, see the potential of this, but we want to make sure we do this right as well. So we want to make sure we do that in the right way with the right rigor and so on. We are conducting, as I say, the final stages of studies.

59:41We have two ongoing, of which the second will wrap up in the second half of next year. The data we released last month, though it hasn't yet been reviewed by the FDA, we have a meeting planned with them where we'll discuss with them. And we'll discuss the potential for any acceleration of a filing and a regulatory process. Do you also think about other usages, whether it's PTSD and other applications? And I'm just curious what you might be exploring in that world. Our next priority beyond persistent depression is indeed PTSD. That is something with very high prevalence, some 13 million in the US, for which there are only two very old drugs approved.

1:00:18And unfortunately, recently, there have been two advisory committees recommending against new drugs in that space. So yes, we see PTSD as a key area. We generated some data last year, and we will be announcing the design of another late stage trial for PTSD imminently. I know the US FDA is the gold standard for going through the regulatory process to be viewed by the world as a credible treatment for something. But these days, is it worth going after approval in another country? to try to do this on a smaller scale to prove that, yes, it indeed works? We will be exploring approval in a range of countries.

1:00:56So our studies have been international, US, Canada, Europe as well. We have taken advice over the years from the European regulatory authorities. We're a UK-based company as well. So we've been speaking to the MHRA, the regulatory authority in the UK. So yes, this is a problem, sadly, for patients across the world, and we would look to exploit it where we can. I'm just curious in terms of big pharma, have you had any preliminary discussions with larger pharmaceutical partners interested in commercialization, co-commercialization or distribution? What I know is the big pharma is tracking this space closely.

1:01:33And what's been great is to see the re-entry of some big pharma back into psychiatry over the last couple of years. So I know they watch this space. But we at Compass are determined that we can do this ourselves. and are excited about the opportunity to bring this potential new treatment to patients who so clearly need it. So no strategic alignment that you would consider? You plan on doing this alone? That's our plan. Okay, great stuff. Stay in touch. Thank you very much, indeed. And let us know how things are going. Really appreciate it. Kabir, be well. Kabir Nath, he's Chief Executive Officer of Compass Pathways, joining us right here in studio.

1:02:07This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station. Just say, Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130. Well, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Eric Schmidt are all so-called burners. Mark Zuckerberg is gone, as has Elon Musk. Sam Altman called the festival, quote, the most beautiful man-made thing I have ever seen and suggested it was what a post-AGI world can look like. It's like poetry. it's something it's something apparently there are a lot of drugs there too i'm just i'm just gonna say that we're talking about burning man and as i've been told by friends who've gone i wouldn't get it and i wouldn't like it friends who've gone you've never gone oh i've never gone no i this did your friends like it yeah but he was like he's like yeah he's like you're you would hate it you gotta let go and i don't let go of anything you wouldn't like it anyway that's enough about me i want to talk to ted alcor and he's a bloomberg business week freelance contributor he wrote about the magazine, wrote for the magazine about Burning Man's crisis.

1:03:14He joins us from New Mexico. It's an existential financial crisis that the organization is facing. Ted, we're going to talk about that in a minute, but have you first, have you been to the Burning Man event in the Black Rock Desert? I have. I feel like, you know, I'm a big believer in getting a taste of what you're going to report on, knowing a little bit of what you're writing about. Okay, so describe it for people who haven't been? It's hard to put into words, admittedly, and I don't mean that as hyperbole. It's a very strange, unusual environment, visually and socially. 80 ,000 people in the desert with a lot of lights, a lot of noise.

1:03:57I've heard rumored there are some substances there and certainly very few rules. But interesting things occur out of it and obnoxious things too. But it's certainly something that keeps people going back year after year. One of the very few rules though, is that there's no money exchanged at the event, apart from the ticket that you buy ahead of time. And that is the core fundamental tension that you write about. It has to do with commerce and money. That's really at the root of Burning Man's financial woes. It just can't do money. Explain what's going on. Yeah, I mean, basically, it's bound to these principles that kind of emerged from this sort of utopian project of, you know, getting away from the traditional capitalist economy, decommodifying the event, everything there is based on gifting.

1:04:47You know, for nine days, people get by on what they brought and what other people give them. But the organization, the nonprofit that runs this, of course, has to operate in the real world where debt collectors do come for your bills. And, you know, for a period of time, the event was growing and there was a ton of interest and ticket sales were covering the costs. But in the last few years, costs have increased a lot, you know, the inflation, but also, you know, in terms of labor and other costs for events like this. And the ticket prices just haven't kept up. And so the sort of the business model of bringing this group together is increasingly in doubt.

1:05:28and it kind of caught up to them this last year when tickets actually didn't sell out completely, particularly this higher price tranche of tickets. And all of a sudden the organization came out of the desert and was basically$20 million in the hole. Wow, that's a lot of money. You write in the story that back in 1990, when they sold anything close to a ticket or what you could call, it was actually a suggestion of$10 in donations and the price of tickets kind of stayed around, I guess, that level for a while. What does it cost today? And why aren't people maybe as interested? Because I feel like we used to talk about it a lot here because a lot of business folks, certainly in the tech community, used to show up there.

1:06:13So talk to us about what it costs today and maybe why interest is waning. Yeah, I mean, well, when it started, it was just a bunch of people driving out into the desert. So I don't think people felt compelled to sort of make a donation. I dug up this flyer from the first time that the event was held in Nevada with, as you said, a suggested$10 donation. Last year, the standard price ticket was$575. This year, it's $749. So it's a big difference. And admittedly, the event has gotten a lot more formalized, a lot more law-abiding, I guess. And believe me, there's plenty of debates over whether which of those costs are necessary.

1:06:52But if you have to spend$3.2 million on porta potties, which is how much they spent last year, you can imagine the sort of scale of public services that the organization has to offer these days. And that gives into a lot of tension within sort of the Burning Man community, because as you said, there's been this diminution in the number of people that went to Nevada for the event last year. And it's caused a lot of people to wonder, has Burning Man jumped the shark? Or was it, you know, they had an off year, there was a very well publicized monsoon that led a lot of people sort of stranded in mud the year before?

1:07:33You know, is this just sort of like a temporary thing or a secular trend? And as I also went on to report, a lot of people who are who sort of identify as burners or burning man people aren't going to Nevada anymore. They're actually going to regional events that have proliferated around the world. And now there's around 100 of them. And in fact, last year... And they pay a franchise fee, right? No, you know, these events, basically, if they meet the goals of Burning Man, they stick to the principles that provide some modicum of safety, they can use that, they can get sanctioned, and they can exist.

1:08:07And they're offered, they're asked to give a suggested donation to the organization, but they don't tithe, basically, the mothership. And more people now are experiencing Burning Man in those places than in Nevada and Black Rock City. Okay, well, speaking of donations, Carol mentioned$20 million was a lot of money. And for an organization, a nonprofit being short$20 million certainly is. But to somebody who's one of the wealthiest people in the world, or indeed the wealthiest person in the world, the names of people who are Burning Man supporters, Larry Page, Sergey Brin, Eric Schmidt, they're all billionaires.

1:08:39Mark Zuckerberg, one of the wealthiest people in the world. Elon Musk is the wealthiest person in the world. $20 million would be nothing for some of these billionaires. What did the CEO of the organization tell you about her relationship with the wealthiest people in the world and who have been supporters of Burning Man and how they could or could not help fill the gap here? I think it's pretty popularly understood that Silicon Valley's elites are very connected with Burning Man. But even to me, I was surprised to learn how fundamental a very small number of those uber-wealthy people have been to the organization.

1:09:20It was in a fundraising prospectus that was sort of an internal document that I learned that just five individuals have provided the organization two-thirds of its philanthropic funding in the last 10 years. 10 years, over$40 million. They wouldn't tell me the exact names, but I think you've mentioned a few most likely. And as the fundraisers for the organization told me, rich people are weird about money. And folks who are willing to go, or in fact, eager to go out into the desert, spend a lot of money on a flame belching vehicle to drive around, or as one I spoke with, you know, runs a big camp for all his extended family and friends.

1:09:59They gave out a kilo of high-grade Iranian saffron, which has some hallucinogenic properties. People are very willing to make those sort of private contributions, but they're a lot more reticent to support the organization. And so they're trying to pivot, basically, the Burning Man organization's point of view is, we're like another arts organization. We're like the Met Opera or American Ballet Theater. We need people to support us because ticket revenues alone aren't going to pay the bills. But convincing wealthy donors to sort of pitch in for the more humdrum kind of costs of putting on the event has been a challenge.

1:10:39And they fell very short of their$20 million fundraising goal this last year. Last I heard, they'd raised$7 million. So fundraising not going so well. So everything hangs in the balance here for the sales this year, I think. Like, you know, they've tried to be more firm about asking a higher ticket price and sort of coaxing people to pitch in what they say is the true cost. But they're between a little bit of a rock and a hard place because the higher they raise prices, they're losing their lower income adherence. Some longtime members of their community who kind of make the event, who build the event.

1:11:13And so if they raise prices too much, they're going to lose the things that make that whole event what it is. We cover the U.S. Open, and it's lots of sponsorships, big, well-known companies. Any companies interested in sponsoring this event? Well, you know, the Burning Man organization has tried to, I think, adapt to new times. They're trying to interest a new generation, right, of the Gen Zers who have not been attending, who don't know how to get a ticket or pay a price. They've embraced some kinds of social media, trying to put the word out about their ticket. But they're really hedged in by, again, those principles that they're philosophical principles, because if they step into a realm where it looks like they're commodifying what they're doing, they get so much blowback from this pretty intense community.

1:12:04They reposted a TikTok with, you know, some folks kind of like doing shot skis and like trampolining and baby oil and people lost their minds on Reddit. And so, yeah, to bring in companies, private companies, or to seek other sources of revenue, I think is really anathema to who they are. But, you know, that limits their options about how to monetize what they do. I don't want to give away the whole story. It's worth the read. It has been among the top read stories on the Bloomberg Terminal since this came out. And I've had people text me about it, actually. My dad loved this story. He's like a, I guess you could say.

1:12:43Does he wish he had gone? No, no. He's like an observer, a distant observer of Burning Man, I think it's fair to say. I don't want to give the whole thing away, but can you just tell us a little bit about a potential solution here, this voluntary Burning Man wealth tax? Yeah, got to go there. Well, one of the board members of the Burning Man project who has told me is one of the major donors that supported it, Farhad Mohit, who sold Shopzilla for over a half billion dollars 20 years ago. and has had some other very successful ventures since, he's all in on a more ambitious vision for Burning Man.

1:13:21And his view is that wealthy people like himself should pay a bigger share. And he made this amazing website, which he calls the Burning Man Principal Pause Calculator, which is essentially, he says, if you go to Burning Man for nine days and don't work and you just play, your capital, your money should go with you. It shouldn't go with you. It should actually take that time off. And so the interest that your wealth generates in that nine days, you should contribute to the Burning Man organization. And if you put in your wealth on his calculator and you're like me, freelance journalist income, you find, wow, based on my income or my wealth, I don't know anything.

1:13:59But he put in for me, you know, OK, you got$1 billion. Oh, you have$10 billion. Oh, you have$150 billion. And he's thinking about somebody specific. And he says, like, this guy needs to give$1.3 billion to the Burning Man organization. And I was like, well, that exceeds their expenses. What are you going to do with the rest? And he said, we'll flip it on its head. We'll give the money out to all the burners as a universal burner income. And then we're really living our values. And so apparently a few people he's spoken with about are enthusiastic. He underscores this is voluntary. I would kind of describe it as a wealth tax, but it's a suggested donation going back to their roots.

1:14:39And we'll see if it takes hold. What was he smoking? Oh, sorry. No, there was Saffron, I think. Oh, was it Saffron? I don't know. I don't know. What was it? Read the story. Read the story. I don't know. Anyway, unbelievable read. As Tim mentioned, it has been among the most read stories throughout the week. Ted Alcorn, he's a contributor at Bloomberg Businessweek. Check out his story about Burning Man Festival facing its existential financial crisis. It's an incredible read. Quick one before you jump back in. You're listening for ways to help teams move faster, make sharper decisions, and turn scattered context into work they can use.

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1:17:16Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Or watch us live on YouTube. It's time for Bloomberg Pursuits. And this week, it's the jewelry special featured in the magazine out on newsstands later this month and already available online on the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg.com. And Tim, it's all about the 100 years of Art Deco influence. I love the history that we find out about kind of how it all came to be. And so we're going to get into that jewelry that's over a century old and now worth millions of dollars.

1:17:50Here with more is Bloomberg contributing jewelry writer and founder of La Patiala, the luxury encyclopedia. Kristen Shirley back with us. Kristen, I want to start with some history and definitions here. What is Art Deco? And just give us some background. Sure. So the Art Deco period started in the early 1900s and really crystallized in 1925 at the big exhibition in Paris. For Art Deco jewelry, there are a lot of different styles. But what they share is graphic, linear design, few colors, but bold colors when they're used, and the use of diamonds, black enamel, and onyx. Why did it come to be? Like, I always think about, you know, trends and waves, fashion, art, jewelry.

1:18:32Like, what is it? Like, take us back to 1925. Sure. So this was a reaction to the very floral, swirly motifs of the periods of the late 1800s. So these new geometric motifs were sort of the opposite of that. These designers were looking at modernity, and modernity to them was strict geometric lines. We were entering the industrial era with, you know, the Ford assembly lines and new buildings and tanks. And unfortunately, World War I came in and sort of put a stop to this design period. And then it picked it up at the back of the war. And then the exhibition happened in 1925 once Europe had had a chance to recover.

1:19:19I think a lot of people are really familiar with Art Deco buildings, especially here in New York. maybe the Chrysler Building or the Empire State Building. But jewelry, before reading your piece, was kind of new to me. It didn't occur to me that the Art Deco movement extended toward jewelry. Yes, Art Deco jewelry is actually one of the most enduring and timeless jewelry trends that there is. No matter what year the pieces are from, they really have this ultra-modern look. So in our story, we combined vintage pieces from the early 1900s with pieces that were made this year. And I think looking at them, you can't really tell what's vintage and what's new because it still looks so fresh.

1:19:58And it's one of the very few periods that you can say that about. That is so true. And it's funny because I had to go back and forth. I'm like, oh, that's new stuff, which was fascinating. Kristen, take us back, though, to November, that auction at Christie's, because I'm always curious about, too, why you guys decide to talk about this right now. It sounds like all of a sudden pieces have been coming up for auction and investors, buyers, they're really interested in them. Yes, I think Art Deco is always enduring. But there was a huge collection of private family collection of jewelry that came up for auction at Christie's in November.

1:20:33And the pieces sold for exceptional sums, you know, two to three times the estimates in many amounts. And that's because the provenance was secure. It had been in the same family ever since it was commissioned since the 1920s, which is very rare, and have massive, massive gemstones that you sometimes can't find today because the mines have been depleted. So when we were looking at the jewelry world this year, we said, what is the biggest story? And for me, it was that Art Deco started 100 years ago, really, and is still as desirable today. Someone spent 4.4 million francs on a single necklace.

1:21:09That's pretty wild. All right. What was that necklace? It was a beautiful Cartier necklace, and it had about 130 carats of diamonds. And it was just very strict, geometric, absolutely stunning, a perfect example of Art Deco style. I think I have a version of that in rhinestones, which is not the same thing. No, but it's really just, I mean, you look at something like that, it's timeless. I also love, I mean, walk us through some of the other pieces. And also, you kind of go back to some old Hollywood icons many decades ago who also kind of show case pieces. Yes. If we're looking at Hollywood in the 1920s and 1930s, these starlets were saying, I want to wear Art Deco jewelry.

1:21:55I don't care what era the movie is taking place in. So we see it in a Cleopatra movie, which the costume archivist at Paramount described as the most Art Deco movie of all time. And you wouldn't think Cleopatra would be wearing Art Deco jewelry and clothing, but it was just so avant-garde and of the moment that that's how they dressed her. And it's really an interesting thing to see. Then if we're looking at the actual pieces that we shot, we shot a mix of vintage from the 1920s and 1930s from makers, including Chomay and Bulgari. And then we shot modern pieces from independent designers like Kassin, Adam Neely, and Jessica McCormack.

1:22:36and the top houses of the day, like Van Cleef & Arpels, Boucheron, and Cartier. What about now in sort of everyday jewelry and the influence of Art Deco 100 years ago on designers today? Well, I think people would be surprised that a lot of the jewelry they're wearing is Art Deco inspired. If you're wearing something that's geometric, it's white diamonds and black enamel. That is quintessential Art Deco right there. Anything with like a cabochon gemstone inside a geometric setting also buried Art Deco. And we see these designers pulling inspiration from all sorts of Art Deco pieces. For example, Fernando George that we featured in the story, his pieces were inspired by the Chrysler Building and New York City's iconic Art Deco buildings.

1:23:25So designers are bringing in Art Deco influences from outside of the jewelry world, too. I have to say, the earrings are amazing. folks should go online and check it out or go to the Bloomberg. And my understanding on all of this, or a lot of this, prices are upon request, unless noted. And there are a lot of prices upon request. So as my mom used to say, if you have to ask. Kristen, thanks so much. It's an incredible spread and read. The jewelry special here in Pursuits. Kristen Shirley, thank you so much. Bloomberg's contributing jewelry writer and founder of La Patiala joining us here. All right.

1:23:59Art Deco matters. We got that. And so too, it seems, Tim, key fobs, especially when you take into account what goes into them. Yeah, I learned that the hard way a couple of years ago when I lost the humble key fob for my 2018 Subaru Outback. And it was many, many, many hundreds of dollars to replace it. I was like, this is insane. It's insane. I actually think it was like not cool. It's not cool. It's not cool. No, they're crazy. We're always like in our house, don't lose the key fob. With more on that. I got a guy though now. You got a guy? A guy, yeah. Tim is like, you have a guy for everything.

1:24:33Yeah, let's just say I didn't go with the official Subaru one. I got a guy. He showed up. You may be from California, but you have definitely become a New Yorker. All right, let's get to it. And we're also going to get a little bit into her recent drive-by with the Tesla Diner. Bloomberg Auto columnist Hannah Elliott joining us now. Hannah, good to have you here. Let's talk key fobs, first of all, because I think we just think they're this silly little thing. But apparently there's a lot that goes into them, especially for a luxury car or higher ed car. Hi, guys. That's exactly right. And Tim, that was so not cool.

1:25:04I'm very upset by your tale of your lost key fob. Well, I called the Subaru dealer. And I think they said it would be in the many hundreds of dollars to replace it. So I looked at Reddit. And I found that you can actually call a special type of locksmith. And they can bring you an aftermarket one that works just as well. It was like$150,$200. bucks. That's a great hack. We should all take a cue. That's a great hack. And Carol, to your point, yeah, key fobs are something that we don't really think about until we have to, like if we lose it. But actually, it is kind of a calling card for your car, because it is the first and primary way that you are going to interact with the vehicle, actually.

1:25:47And automakers do know this they've kind of come to embrace it embrace it in recent years especially the the higher end like I'm thinking of Bentley for instance which has this amazing pretty heavy sort of ovoid key fob that has this really cool burling on it and this Bentley B on the top and that it that is on the top specifically so that when you leave the key like on a bar or on a table in a restaurant It's sort of a low-key humble brag that, oh, I've got a Bentley. Is it really low-key? Maybe not that low-key. Maybe not that low-key. Oh, the other thing, though, is interesting, too. Like, some people, I love what you talk about the BMW key fob that kind of went maybe too far.

1:26:30Yeah. You know, again, this is sort of a new era of exploration in the key fob segment. And we got to credit BMW. they really, they shot for the moon on this. In about 2015, they developed this display key, which was this really big oversized fob with a screen on it. And it had a ton of function. It was literally kind of like an iPhone, a small iPhone, but it was a$670 option. And it is no longer offered. It was discontinued in 2022 because of low consumer interest. So that was a no. That was a no. How did Cadillac and General Motors kind of mess up with their high-end competitor? This is an interesting thing, too.

1:27:21This is a miss. And we recently drove the Cadillac Celestic, which is their Rolls-Royce competitor. And I actually did like that vehicle. But the one thing that was a big miss is the key was not special. It was a plastic key in a thick leather sheath that was the same key that you would get in any other Cadillac. And for a car that is supposed to be going up against, for instance, a Rolls Royce, the key just felt like a total flop. It did not have any of the signature or subtle details and just touch points that the car itself had. It just was a plastic fob. It was kind of a dud. Yeah, exactly.

1:28:10So these things do matter. On the other side of things, Lotus, with their electric SUV, the Eletre, has developed this thing they're calling the Pebble, which is a fob, but it's shaped kind of like a guitar pick. And it's small, it's light, it's very simple. They told me that they developed it so that if you have it in your pocket, it's not going to ruin the line of your clothing or your suit, which I thought was really cool. So, you know. Is it in some, looking forward? Is there a point where it's just not going to matter because we're not going to need anything? Honestly, I think we are going in that direction.

1:28:44Of course, we can. You know, of course, for instance, Tesla and Rivian have like credit card sized, quote unquote, keys that you can use to unlock the vehicle. Also, of course, we have apps that now basically can control a lot of vehicles from starting them to controlling climate, audio, window settings, everything. That is great. I mean, it's not great if you lose your phone or your phone's dead or you break your phone. So it's not perfect. But to your point, Carol, I think we are moving in that direction. All right. I only said that because you said that in your story. And that's how I came in.

1:29:20All right, Tim, go. Let's move in the direction of food because, Hannah, you usually get to write about cars. But sometimes you get to write about burgers and grilled cheeses and chili fries. and you went to the recent Tesla Diner and no, you were not allowed to park your own Rolls Royce at the Tesla Diner. Tesla parking only. They do have 80 superchargers, which is one of the highest concentrations of superchargers in the country. There are a few that are bigger, like out in the desert on the way to Vegas I've seen. But yeah, this is Tesla parking only, although they will valet your car or you can street park like I did.

1:30:00So how was it? Well, it was really an experience. Let me tell you, if you are a Tesla owner or a Tesla fan, I think you will find it to be really fun. It was really different. I went in not knowing what to expect. I will say I have driven by many times in the past few days and seen a line of people around the block. So there is a lot of excitement about this. The diner itself looks very Jetsons-y. It's round. It has neon lights. They're playing, you know, movies on big screens. It's like a drive-in, actually. So there's a lot to see. The food itself was better than I expected. It was developed by Eric Greenspan, who is a Le Cordon Bleu-trained chef.

1:30:54He's had many successful restaurants here in L.A. He's developed his own style of New American cheese. So he is really well respected. And I actually ran into him at the diner. So he was he was really nice enough to order for me. We got an array of sandwiches, including a tuna melt, a grilled cheese, a hamburger, some chili cheese fries, a coffee. And the food was good. Now, I admit I don't often eat chili cheese fries. but Eric developed this particular Wagyu beef style chili cheese fry that he told me reminded him of when he was in high school and he would have a cheat day on his diet and he would always eat cheese fries chili cheese fries so um which was and they were good they were good they were very like down home comfort no salad on the menu you know I I might have missed that but none that I saw.

1:31:51The whole idea here is it's an American drive-in diner like the kind you saw in the 50s and 60s. Is it going to make people buy a Tesla? Oh, that's a good question. I don't think so. I don't think so. This feels to me more like Tesla is celebrating the people who are already in love with the brand. And I do think that is really admirable. I love the idea of an automotive brand spending a lot of money and resources and time to celebrate its owners and Tesla has extremely dedicated owners, especially considering everything that the company itself has been through in recent months. You know, it's really suffered in terms of sales and revenue and profits and earnings and all that.

1:32:30So it's great for people who love Tesla. And honestly, I would go back and get a burger if the line, if I didn't have to wait in line. That's really the thing. The line now is really long. What about the Optimist robot? Isn't that's supposed to make things move more smoothly? Yeah, well, Optimus was not present, my friend. And I did ask and was told that Optimus is on a break. I thought that was the whole point of robots is they didn't need to take breaks. You don't need to pay them. They don't need to sleep. Come on. I know. And I did also ask, now, was somebody else operating Optimus remotely?

1:33:06And I got no comment. So that might have been brought out to sort of generate some buzz at the start of the opening. But no, unfortunately, Optimus was not there. Yeah. Yeah. But I would say, honestly, the sleeper hit of the diner menu is the tuna melt. Yeah. Like, not something I would normally go for, but it was great. We're heading to the West Coast for a work trip in the fall. So maybe. Oh, yeah. Stop it. Maybe take a wait. Wait, can we take a Waymo to the Tesla diner? That's a great idea. Busted. I love that idea. They would not. I don't know if they would. As long as Elon doesn't see you, I think you'd be okay.

1:33:48I feel like the alarm bells would go up. I did ask Eric, has Elon been by yet? And he said that he had been, but I feel like we would have heard about it. So maybe he went by before it opened. I don't know. Yeah. We'll keep an eye on it. Right. Our thanks to Hannah Elliott, a Bloomberg News auto columnist, also diner expert, and knows everything about key fobs. Got to say that story. Both those stories are fun, fun reads. That wraps up our weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so much for joining us. Be sure to tune in to Bloomberg Business Week daily Monday through Friday starting at 2 p.m.

1:34:20Wall Street time on Bloomberg TV, Bloomberg Radio and on Sirius XM channel 121. You can also listen to us on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto free in the Apple App Store or on Google Play. You can also watch our daily broadcast on YouTube. Just search Bloomberg Podcasts and we're simulcast on Bloomberg Originals. available at Bloomberg.com slash originals and streaming platforms, including Roku, Amazon Fire TV, Samsung TV Plus, and more. I'm Tim Stenevec. And I'm Carol Masser. Have a great and safe weekend, everyone. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts.

1:34:56Listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn, and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.

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