Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - December 27th, 2025

22:15Carol Massar:We do that, but we also try to make it really, really useful. And the way that we do that is exactly like you're saying. We're providing a ton of data. We have a partnership with Kayak. They supply us with 2.5 billion data points each year to get this project off the ground. And those data points power these incredible charts that are interactive. You can select your closest airport and then get predictive price insights month by month to understand what flights and hotels will cost you to go to each of the 25 places that we're excited about this year. And then on top of that, we layer in expert insights from travel agents and operators that are real experts in these destinations.

22:57Carol Massar:So for a place like Gabon, we can tell you very clearly that the summer months, our summer months, June, July, August, are the best time to go because prices are favorable, but also that's when you're going to get the best wildlife sightings. It's the dry season. So you'll not only be able to see gorillas, but also migratory whales on the coast. There's a national park where there are lots of mandrill monkeys and that's their mating season. So there's like all of these reasons why the summer months are really the best time. I love, I love. Hey, listen, I always think about people always talk about Greece.

23:29Carol Massar:And when you haven't been to Greece, like me, they're like, what, you haven't been to Greece. But I always think about the Greek Isles. And you guys actually include on this list, the Greek mountains. Wait, what? You haven't been to Greece? I know, see. I haven't either. My parents went there on their honeymoon. Oh. Yeah. This was like, you know, back before everyone was posting Greek Isles on Instagram. Like many decades before that. Apparently now we should go to the Greek mountains. Well, I do recommend that you go to the Greek islands at some point in your life. But I think that a mistake that people make is overly focusing on the Greek islands.

24:02And a change in behavior is happening now where people are understanding that the Greek islands are very saturated.

24:08Carol Massar:They're very expensive. Hotels are easily pushing$1 ,000 a night if you can even get in. The ferries are, you know, there's difficulties with the ferries. There's always protests and strikes and there's weather concerns. There have been wildfires the last few years, very extreme temperatures. That doesn't make the Greek islands any less magical. They're a very, very special place. But people have understood that the headache that's associated with the Greek isles means that sometimes you need to pair them with another place. That's a little less stressful. And a really common solution to that, which is sometimes also just replacing the Greek Isles, is to go north to the mountains where you can get a lot of the same cultural draws, a lot of the same food even.

24:54Carol Massar:But with a much quieter, more countryside vibe, small villages where the culture is really still a Greek authentic experience. I like that. You're going to get farmers and cheese makers and very old monasteries and old stone buildings and just that kind of charm that in a lot of the islands has been eroded to kind of peddling to mass tourism. Okay. So that's an area that is certainly on my list. I want to talk a little bit about budgets here. We mentioned that you can go on both ends of the budget extreme. So stuff that's affordable and stuff that many would classify as splurging. Let's start with the splurging side of things.

25:32If you look at this entire list of more than two dozen places, where do you go if you win the Powerball?

25:39Carol Massar:Woo, that's a great question. So I would say my personal answer to that question is not borne out by the data that we're showing necessarily. But I would go to Rote Island in Indonesia where a new hotel is soon to open called Nihirote. Now, if you're a hotel nerd like I am, then Nihi has a strong connotation to you. Because about 15, almost 15 years ago, the entrepreneur Chris Birch and the hotelier James McBride became like overnight sensations in the luxury travel world by opening what soon became known as the most luxurious resort in the whole wide world. And it was called Nihi Watu. Now it's just called Nihi.

26:25Carol Massar:They changed it. But this Indonesian private island resort has developed such a strong following. It really is known as one of the finest places you can stay. And for the first time, they're opening their second hotel, a spinoff to Nihim, on a tiny island called Rote. And what's interesting about it is that they're also creating a big hospitality academy for locals there so that they can help Indonesians kind of capitalize on their own travel economy. It's a really interesting model. These are expensive hotels. But that's where I would go. The nice thing is that because that hotel isn't open yet, it's not reflected in Kayak's hotel data.

27:03Carol Massar:And if you wanted to stay anywhere else, our price information shows that you can stay for as little as$116 a night in a luxury hotel. I have to say, I would love to go to Tanzania's Spice Islands. That's my kind of favorite pick in this list. Having said that, I got to go to the United States because there are a couple of places, Ozarks, which made me think of the streaming series, and then Charleston, South Carolina, which made me think of the reality show Southern Charm. But they are on your list as places that in the US that people might want to think about top. They're among your tops. Yeah, absolutely.

27:39Carol Massar:So the Ozarks are really interesting. I think most people probably don't even know exactly where they are. They're in the South. There's a big kind of mountain range and connects numerous destinations that you probably do know about. There's Branson, Missouri on one side, and then Bentonville, Arkansas is on another side. And if you know anything about Bentonville, you know that it's the HQ for Walmart. I thought you were going to say it's the cycling capital of the country. Oh, stop cycling. It actually is. It is. That's also true. Thanks to the Walton family that have, you know, they've actually just had a big race there.

28:16Carol Massar:The Walton family has done so much for this part of the U.S. and their biggest contribution, in my opinion, and probably in a lot of people's opinion, is the museum that they created in Bentonville called Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art. And it is truly one of the finest art institutions in the country, if not possibly the world, frankly. And they are doing a massive, massive expansion of their gallery spaces. They're adding 114 ,000 square feet of exhibition space. And this is like really architecturally impressive gallery space. Like we're not talking about like just boxy buildings. It's like beautiful, like, you know, it's a complex worth seeing on its own.

28:57Carol Massar:But it's also surrounded with like James Turrell installations, like those sky space installations and trails of 100 public artworks that you can go biking around. Plus, there's like all these new hotels in the area that make it really, really quite fascinating culturally from an adventure standpoint, for a family standpoint. It's got everything. I think Corsica now may be my favorite place. This list is so – You're changing. You're changing. Oh, my God. There's like, it's really cool. It's really cool. We have to leave it there, unfortunately. But I do love how you say it's interactive. We highly recommend everybody head either to the Bloomberg or Bloomberg.com.

29:39Carol Massar:Play around with it because, you know, you can select an origin. You just kind of can play around with it and figure out the best time of the year to go. You know, the financial part and what it will cost is all part of it. It's very cool how you guys put this list together. Nikki, thank you so much. happy holidays and happy almost a new year places to go happy travel happy travels love it take care of nikki that's nikki ekstein bloomberg pursuits at global travels are and be sure to check out the list at bloomberg.com and of course on the bloomberg terminal too where would you go um rocky mountains were in there too you know well canadian canada's rocky mountains still rocky mountains yeah that's a great place i would i would i want to go to kazakhstan oh yeah yeah yeah It sounds like what?

30:23Carol Massar:Yeah, really cool. The scenery is just unbelievable. The information in this list tells you why you really want to go there. And I love that they did the homework. Since you and I started doing this together, Carol. What? I've been to zero of these places. I feel too. Welcome to having kids. Hey, still ahead on Bloomberg Business Week, we reflect on the year that was for the world's richest man, Elon. This is Bloomberg. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station.

31:00Just say Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130.

31:03Carol Massar:Let's now turn to someone who seemed to dominate the news cycle in 2025. Seemed to, yeah, he totally dominates. Elon Musk wasn't just sending rockets to space and pushing robo-taxis forward. He began the year by plunging headfirst into politics, taking an advisory role in the Trump administration's Department of Government Efficiency, or DOGE, where Musk and his team of Dozers helped. Is that what they call them? Do they call them Dozers? Doge kids. Doge kids. Doge kids. That's Max Chapkin. That's the scientific term. Doge boys. Doge boys. He's going to come in in just a moment. All right. Well, they helped lead sweeping federal spending cuts and stirred controversy.

31:38Carol Massar:Yeah, just a little bit over the reach of private power in U.S. government. It was a time when you would often see Elon and sometimes his young son alongside President Trump in the Oval Office. Elon and the president both taking questions from reporters, addressing U.S. government business. That was early on in the year. Totally. And then, of course, there was Elon's black eyes seen around the world from the Oval Office. And later, the public fallout with President Trump that still seems to exist on some level. It's kind of news when you see these two together now. But the bromance, not what it was, it seems.

32:07Carol Massar:Although, let's remember, in November, Elon was actually back at a White House dinner for Mohammed bin Salman, MBS, Saudi Arabia's crown prince, along with other big tech bros. Remember those sneakers that Elon wore? They were all over social media. All right. Then that's Elon the person. Then there's also Elon's empire, the EV company, the clean energy stuff, Tesla facing a backlash, protests tied to his ties to the White House and political moves. And then there's SpaceX. It launched more Falcon rockets, had successful test flights of its Starship mega rocket, the world's largest and most powerful, shot more Starlink satellites into space.

32:41Carol Massar:And then in December, we all got the long awaited and anticipated news about a possible blockbuster IPO for SpaceX that could be the largest ever with a targeted valuation of about one and a half trillion. December 2, we saw Tesla hitting an all time high. It's first in about a year. We had to talk about all of this. It's kind of our backdrop. Max Chafkin is Bloomberg Businessweek senior reporter. He's co-host of the Everybody's Business podcast. He's the author of The Contrarian, Peter Thiel, and Silicon Valley's Pursuit of Power. So, Max, when you think about the year that was for Elon Musk, I mean, I think about the politics of it.

33:15That's kind of my biggest takeaway is his closeness and then distance to the president. Yeah, I mean, he was briefly probably the most powerful person in the US government besides Donald Trump. I mean, he was at Trump's side pretty much continuously. Trump made Musk and this Doge effort and these young people that Elon Musk brought into government central to the beginning of his administration. It was a big part of this effort early on to kind of like flood the zone, which was a term you heard from Republican operatives. And that didn't last very long. But at the same time this year, Elon Musk also increased his net worth tremendously.

33:58He was briefly not the world's richest man. Larry Ellison, I can't remember, was it? Yeah, back in September. At least a couple of days there. For a moment. And he got the Tesla board to give him a trillion dollar pay package. So he simultaneously was kind of at the seat of power and getting paid more money than anybody in history. I mean, of course, those two things are related, but they're also complicated by the fact that, as you said, Tim, the relationship with Trump has been rocky.

34:25Carol Massar:You know, he was in the White House, but still also running a bunch of companies. He was running, you know, five companies. And that created all sorts of interesting complications. And you kind of see both the way that Elon Musk leveraged his political power in the sort of asset prices of these stocks, right, where one of the reasons Tesla's value has gone up so much, and that's what has driven Elon Musk's net worth, is this belief that his proximity to Republicans will allow him to get concessions on policies for driverless cars. So driverless cars, of course, are not widely available. There are sort of different explanations for that.

35:07But if you're a Tesla bull, you think one of the explanations is regulatory, and you believe that Elon Musk's proximity to power is going to facilitate that. And so we've seen a dramatic run-up in the price of Tesla, driving up Elon Musk's net worth. It's kind of similar dynamic with SpaceX, which of course is a government contractor. On the flip side, in terms of consumers, Elon Musk's association with what is by now a pretty unpopular presidency has really hurt him. And you've sort of seen it in Tesla's sales, where Tesla's sales, he did have a decent quarter right as the EV tax credits expired.

35:46But overall, I mean, the sales have been really poor. You're really seeing a backlash. You're seeing a company that managed to alienate a pretty decent swath of its customer base. But for now, that doesn't matter because Tesla has sort of transcended into the AI firmament. And for whatever reason, Tesla has been able to kind of float above that. And I think some of that has to do with politics. Some of that has to do with Elon Musk's kind of unique relationship with his investor base and with his fan base. And yeah, it's just kind of the aura of Elon improbably continued this year, despite all of the controversy and the black eye and all of that.

36:24Carol Massar:It makes me think that even with all of that and the volatility and the pushback maybe among consumers, still a good year. I mean, if I told you that there were going to be that Elon Musk was going to leave the White House having a huge Twitter war with Donald Trump, where they'd be trading insults over Epstein, that he would have a literal black eye, that there would be reports in The New York Times, which Elon Musk denied about his drug use. You have the president of the United States commenting on those reports. You would say like the chief of staff, Susie Wiles, making comments about that.

36:55It must have been a terrible year for Elon. And yet this guy is he is Teflon. Right. There are things, reputational things, that would hurt other people and that seem to hurt other business people that do not, where he is able to float above it. He has this very, like I said, a very unique relationship with his investors and with his fans. And I think that the truth of it is that Elon may say he's done with politics. He may want to be done with politics, but he can't be done with politics because he is operating in businesses that are just very close to the political heat, right? Tesla is doing AI stuff.

37:31AI stuff, of course, is going to be subject to regulatory scrutiny. You have all this stuff with the AI tax credits. You have his rocket company, which depends on government contracts. All of this has politics baked into it. So he can't get away from politics if he wants to run his companies. This idea that he could step away from politics to run his business empire, it almost doesn't make sense if you actually understand what his business empire is.

37:55Carol Massar:There's a great story in the Bloomberg, Tesla's Musk premium in focus with the SpaceX IPO on the horizon. And it reminds us that the shares are up more than 100 % since April 8th, making it one of the best performers in the S &P 500 index. We won't talk about the valuation because that always freaks out everybody because it's pretty high. Having said that, I want to talk about its businesses because go back to Cathie Wood in the early days who talked and was a big supporter, likened Elon to a Thomas Edison of our times. Is he, you know, Max, when it's Neuralink, it's AI, it's Grok, it's SpaceX, it's Starlink.

38:31Carol Massar:Like there's a lot of stuff. Boring company. I don't even know what's going on with that anymore. Is he still, though, kind of seen as a creative genius and moving the needle in our world? Well, he's within some corners of the business world. He is absolutely seen as somebody on that level, on the Thomas Edison level. I mean, I think in terms of inventions and that comparison, he didn't invent electric cars. He didn't invent the rocket engine that he is using. But he has been very successful at sort of taking existing technologies and manufacturing them and marketing them. It's almost a cliche to compare him to Steve Jobs, but I think it's similar to Steve Jobs.

39:14He's not a technical genius, but he is really, really good at marketing. and sort of understanding how to create products, whether those are products that are sold to the government or products that are sold to consumers. And I mean, I think you also have to say he is pretty good at managing investors and managing politics. I mean, as messed up as it was, as chaotic as it was, he managed to play a pretty big role in Donald Trump's election, and he is still like a political power broker. And he's gonna continue to be that.

39:49Carol Massar:I think, in the years to come. I feel like the bulk of this conversation was about politics rather than his businesses. Does that say something? Or the politics is what really supports, as you said, they're intertwined in many ways, right? I mean, I think the story around Elon now is an investor story. It's a story about investors making a bet and believing, as you said, Carol, running that stock up really, really high based on a belief in the future. And it's less about what the company is doing now, because what the company is doing now, what Tesla is doing now anyway, has not been particularly successful.

40:26But it's a belief that driverless cars are coming any day now. And there are a lot of people in the stock market who think that's true. So we're not going to hear about them in 2026. OK, so we could have done this for 20, 30, 40 minutes, Max. We barely scratched the surface. Yeah. 2026, SpaceX's IPO. I imagine we are going to be spending quite a bit of time talking about Elon next year. I mean, we're definitely going to be talking about Elon. I think that, you know, we'll see if that IPO happens on schedule. You're a little skeptical? No, I'm not skeptical. I just think it's very, I think anytime we're talking about a mega IPO like that, we're talking about trying to time the markets.

41:07And I think there's just a lot of uncertainty in the market. So, yeah, I mean, if markets are doing what they're currently doing, then I think there's a very good chance that Elon Musk might say, yeah, this makes sense. On the other hand, he has for years and years and years talked about how much he hates running a public company. Remember, he nuked his reputation like seven years ago because he hated having Tesla public so much. And I think it makes sense to do it again with SpaceX just because the public markets give him so much leverage. His ability to just get whatever he wants from the stock market and from kind of retail investors is so important.

41:45It would be helpful to SpaceX just as it's helpful to Tesla. But if he can't do that at a good price, I don't think he will because why would he? He doesn't necessarily have to.

41:54Carol Massar:I got to ask, and I know we have to wrap, but X, formerly Twitter. How did we even not talk about that? I know. Is it just insignificant or it's just I don't even know. Does he even use it that much anymore? You know, I think part so. So X is definitely less like broadly influential than it used to be as a kind of like media thing. Now, part of that is because Elon Musk brought back all these kind of right wingers who were banned for various reasons. And the site has become sort of more of a conservative social network. Right. It's kind of like Fox News to Instagram's MSNBC or something like that.

42:32And so as a result, it doesn't have the same kind of broad influence, but it is still very influential kind of on the right. It is where – like if you are on the right, it's where you're talking to your friends, rivals, et cetera. The other thing is like it's like an AI thing now. It's just a way for Grok X AI, Elon Musk's answer to ChatGPT, to sort of gather information. And so for those, it's not like it's become less valuable. I think, in fact, it's probably become more valuable over the last year, but it's probably less influential than it was. Max Chafkin, we could go on with you for hours.

43:09We appreciate you taking the time. That's Max Chafkin, Bloomberg Businessweek senior reporter. He's the co-host of the Everybody's Business podcast. He's the author of The Contrarian, Peter Thiel, and Silicon Valley's Pursuit of Power.

43:20Carol Massar:And that wraps up our first hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Businessweek from Bloomberg Radio. Coming up in the next 60 minutes, a holiday reading list, perhaps, including an eye-opening exploration into digital empires and the global regulation of AI technology. Plus, unlocking the best in one another. That's what behavioral psychologist John Levy calls collective genius. And he was the CEO of Jamba Juice, on the board of the honest company, Kava. and now he's helping others build an organization with purpose. James D. White joins us in the next hour. This is Bloomberg Businessweek. I'm Carol Masser.

43:52And I'm Tim Stenevich.

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47:32Carol Massar:Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. It's a holiday reading list from some of the authors we spoke to in the last few months, including one, the author of a book about an alternative way we think about great leaders. And I got to tell you, it just may be time to throw out all those other management books. We will talk to the author of Team Intelligence, How Brilliant Leaders Unlock Collective Genius. Plus, the former CEO of Jamba Juice on shaping company culture in the age of Gen Z employees. First up this hour, though, our phones, our data, the apps we use every day.

48:04Behind it all is a quiet but consequential power struggle over who gets to make the rules of the digital world. Our next guest examines how the world's biggest powers, the U.S., China, and the EU, are exporting their digital rule books. And what that means for all of us. The question, how is the future of the digital world going to look?

48:24Carol Massar:For help answering that question, Emily Grafeo and Tim spoke to Anu Bradford. She is Henry L. Moses Professor of Law and International Organization at Columbia Law School. She's also the author of the book Digital Empires, The Global Battle to Regulate Technology. So thanks so much for having me, Tim and Emily. We may well be cooked, but the question is, what are we most worried about? I think there are many exciting developments. I think we're certainly more entertained in many ways. But at the same time, I think those who warned us early on that this is not the kind of AI revolution that we should be just leaving for the tech companies to govern, to manage.

49:05We do need governments involved. We need some guardrails. We need some regulation to make sure that these fast advances that we are witnessing are moving to the direction that we're comfortable with. It seems like it's too late, though. I don't think it's too late. I think we certainly are not at the point where we can say that AI is done. I think we will continue to see massive developments in coming years. And we already have AI governance regulation on the radar of many lawmakers. And obviously, the Europeans have been most proactive, as they usually are. And they have the AI Act, a comprehensive piece of legislation that is already in force.

49:47And now it's then the matter of implementing it effectively. And then we also need to see what happens in the United States at the state level. China is definitely interested in governing AI. We have many other jurisdictions. So I think there is a lot that is happening and a lot more that needs to be done. In your new book, Digital Empires, you break apart how basically different regimes across the globe are governing and regulating AI differently. So there's the U.S., there's Europe, there's China. In your research, have you found one nation is kind of doing that balancing act the best so far in terms of balancing out?

50:32They don't want to stifle innovation, but they also want to protect users of AI, consumers of AI, companies that are getting involved with AI. Who's doing the balancing act the best in your view? So I think any regulator really needs to think about this balancing to make sure that we harness these tremendous benefits that are associated with AI, but also really safeguard our citizens and societies from various risks. And in many ways, there is a perception that the Europeans are erring on the side of preemptively protecting against these risks and maybe then forgoing some of the innovation benefits, whereas the Americans would be erring on the side of maybe being very techno-optimist and not thinking about all those potential downsides.

51:23I think in many ways, I do like and endorse the European model in the sense that, in my view, that best safeguards the public interest and really takes seriously the fundamental rights of individuals and democratic structures of the society. But there is always, I really reject this notion that this comes at the cost of innovation. There definitely is a gap where the Americans are doing much better in generating AI innovations compared to the Europeans. But the reason is not that the Europeans are so keen on regulating. I think there are many other reasons that explain why there are just fundamental pillars of the tech ecosystem in the U.S.

52:05that are much stronger. And the Europeans have fallen short in replicating that. So regulation as such, the protection of those rights is not a choice that needs to come at the cost of making beneficial progress in this space. So, you know, I keep going back to our conversation that we had with you two years ago because the world has changed so much since then. Two years ago, Joe Biden was president. There were a lot of folks who didn't think that Donald Trump would win another term. Fast forward two years. Donald Trump is the president. David Sachs is crypto and AI czar. The regime thinks about this completely differently than, I think it's fair to say, the Biden administration.

52:55What do you think the U.S. needs to be doing right now to regulate this technology? What would you like to see David Sachs do? Yeah, so you're so right. There has been a complete U-turn in many ways towards the end of the Biden administration. There was closer alignment between the traditional transatlantic allies where the U.S. was really moving closer to the European view that technology like AI needs guardrails. And there was a genuine attempt to join forces among the world's techno democracies in order to halt the advances of Chinese digital authoritarian views of governing technology. So I really saw this potential for the US and the EU to join forces to bring about a very beneficial chase in this space.

53:42But now the US is doing, I think, two things. So it's first of all, giving a lot more power to the tech companies, walking away from regulation, embracing this deregulatory zeal that really reflects the very strong form of techno libertarian, techno optimist whirlwind. But in many ways, the U.S. is also playing Beijing's game and becoming very state driven. We see a massive state investment in some of these leading tech companies. We see export controls, investment restrictions. We see subsidies. So the U.S. is, to me, losing some of its own goals. And if you think about how that will also impact the U.S.

54:28is adamant goal of being a leader in AI, what is happening in the space of immigration, I think that is really counterproductive if you think about where all those AI innovations come from the U.S. So what the U.S. would need to do, first, the U.S. would need to regulate this space. We need to make sure that fundamental rights are protected. We need to make sure that those societal risks are under control. And we need to also, at the same time, make sure that we will continue to invest in the development of the AI by retaining the world's best talent, which often is immigrant talent, including then Chinese data scientists who have been contributing to advances in this space in the U.S.

55:11Is there any specific regulation that comes to mind, like that you would want to see in the U.S. that would prevent this kind of idea that Tim presented in the beginning of the segment about this spaghetti test? It sounds silly, the Will Smith spaghetti test, but it gets at the heart of a concern. I'm going to show you the videos. It's crazy. Yeah, concern that people have that suddenly the internet is going to be, you know, filled with these videos. We're not going to be able to tell what's real, what's fake. It's the end. I'm sorry. Well, maybe we can have a professor help suggest. She said it's not the end already, which I'm grateful for.

55:53It's not the end. Is there a specific piece of regulation that comes to mind? Is it about, I don't know, digital privacy, people needing disclaimers on top of every video that you see on the Internet? So I think there are many aspects and there's no easy way to say that you just need to do one thing in order to then address this multitude of different harms. But one thing, it does start from the protection of privacy and our agency and our ability to be able to tell what is fiction and what is not. And our ability to engage in conversation based on real information that is not manipulated by AI.

56:32And this information obviously existed even without ChatGPT type of tools. But they are now fueled with this AI-driven ability to manipulate our sense of reality. So in many ways, I think it does need labeling. It does need the kind of transparency and accountability that we have a sense of how these AI systems are built and how we engage with them. But then there are also risks around just protecting content, content creators. We need to take copyright seriously. and the idea of how to actually train these models with the data that has been generated by individual authors, by journalists. And that needs to be also compensated so that we still have the incentive to engage in that kind of content production.

57:24But privacy is obviously very high on my list. Disinformation is very high on my list. Then there are questions that are more about existential risks, more about systemic risks. And even if it's hard to sometimes know the probabilities of some of the most severe risks and how likely they are to materialize, we still need to be prepared to also as a society to confront that kind of reality when AI advances really fast. And we reach the point when we find even harder to govern that technology. So I think there are all these layers and we are not even really having, at least at the federal level, a real conversation in how we go about regulating the space.

58:08Professor Anu Bradford, Henry L. Moses, Professor of Law and International Organization at Columbia Law School. She's the author of several books, including her most recent Digital Empires, the Global Battle to Regulate Technology, published back in 2023, but as relevant right now as it was two years ago. Please do come back soon and join us here on Bloomberg Businessweek Daily. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at 2 p.m. Eastern on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station.

58:44Just say, Alexa, play Bloomberg 1130.

58:47Carol Massar:Elon has it. So too does President Trump and Steve Jobs also as well. We're talking about leadership. I mean, these are all leaders. John Levy thinks about leadership a lot. He argues, though, that one thing all leaders have in common is not the thing that we're told when it comes to these executive coaches or these business school courses like, you know, empathy or humility, those sorts of things. He says it's something else. John Levy is a behavioral scientist and New York Times bestselling author. He's got a new book out, Team Intelligence, How Brilliant Leaders Unlock Collective Genius. Let's think about it like this.

59:26Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, right? They weren't great at creating psychological safety or even getting consensus among their leadership. Yet people still hold them up as these examples of amazing leaders. The problem is that what we've been sold is that, and mostly through universities like Harvard, Yale, and so on, is that we have to have these essential skills if you want to be a leader. And if you pay them a whole lot of money, they'll teach you those skills, and then you'll be a certified leader. Congratulations. The problem is it just doesn't track. When we really started looking at this, there was only one trait that was common across all leaders.

1:00:01What is it? It's that they have followers. It's so self-referential and it's kind of ridiculous. And so we really wanted to ask the question then, okay, what causes us to follow someone? Generally, people say, okay, it's vision and charisma. But that doesn't make sense. There are plenty of people who have no vision and no charisma and still people follow them. Yeah. So the answer, it turns out, comes down to this. Do you remember how you felt when you were in high school on Sunday at 6 p.m.? The Sunday Scaries? Now, I want you to think about this. You were free. You were at home, but you felt anxious.

1:00:36Friday at 1 o 'clock, you were in class, but how did you feel?

1:00:40Carol Massar:Great. Yeah, so excited. Ecstatic. And that's because human beings don't relate to the present. They relate to the future that they believe they have. If you can make me feel... We don't live in the moment. Definitely not. We believe we tend to have this association right now to what we think is about to happen. And so in high school on Sunday, what was going to happen was school the next day. Or if you're about to leave for vacation, you might be sitting at work, but you're wildly excited. The reason we follow somebody is because when we interact with them or their media, they cause us to feel that there'll be a new and better future.

1:01:17That's it.

1:01:17Carol Massar:So that's fascinating. So let's take it to somebody, President Trump. Is that kind of his success or where he is today? It's because of that. I would argue that people in general vote for whoever they feel will cause them to have a new and better future, whether it's President Trump or it's investing into Elon Musk's companies. Listen, when you read the reports of what he's like as a boss at Elon, right, it's not the type of boss that we exemplify. You might not even have to read reports of what he's like as a boss. You could just follow him on social media and get a good understanding of his personality.

1:01:56And when you do, you have to ask yourself, like, is this really the person I'd want to be reporting to? And the answer is, maybe not. But what he's amazing at is he has a handful of super skills that nobody else has. Right? He thinks at scale and moves faster than anyone in our society. And those super skills are so profound that when we interact with them, people will either say, hey, we'll give him a trillion dollar bonus, right? Or we will come and work for you. or we want to launch things into space. But it's not because he's charismatic. Right. I mean, look at the example of when he pieced together the Doge team.

1:02:32What were the qualifications that he put out there, right? You have to work 80 hours a week. You're not going to get paid. Sign me up. He had people from all over the country who not just wanted to work with him, but believed in his mission.

1:02:46Carol Massar:Yeah, it's really kind of fascinating. So the things that we get, so being nice and generous is not necessarily things that are going to make a good leader. So I want to separate two things, though. Okay. Let's separate being an effective leader from having followers. Okay. Having followers just means that people feel that you'll have a new and better, or they'll feel. Doesn't mean you will. Correct. Because you could have somebody who's incompetent leading a bunch of morons, frankly, and get nowhere. When we actually started looking at the research of what causes teams to be really effective, it came from a woman named Anita Williams-Wooley.

1:03:20And what she found in running a whole series of experiments is that none of the things that we actually thought actually make a team more effective. Right? So IQ of the smartest person, no effect. Average IQ, no effect. How much people liked each other? Not a great predictor. Right? Do you need to trust each other? Sure. Or think that somebody's competent? Yeah. But you don't necessarily need to want to invite everybody you work with to your wedding or something like that. the single greatest predictor the number of women on the team yeah and i want to be clear it's not because they're women it's not a chromosomal thing we're not out of a job don't worry uh it's he was looking at me yeah uh it's because women index higher on emotional intelligence and so there are plenty of men with high emotional intelligence plenty of women who don't have any

1:04:10Carol Massar:but this is wait this makes a better wait so more women on a team means what that on average you have more emotional intelligence on the team, the team can function better because they can coordinate better. And then they outperform. Because when you have a single person sport, it's all about pure talent, right? Or activity. But when you have a group, you've gone from taking your shots to passing either information or the ball. Now, if I can't communicate with you, we are not going to be able to work well together. Having that high emotional intelligence on the team means that we know when to push on a topic and when not to, who to call on, even if they're being quiet and get the information out.

1:04:49Your behavioral science, well, what is your credential in this? Because you've studied behavioral science, but there are entire curricula that are dedicated to teaching leadership that ostensibly have evidence-backed elements that are backed by studies that say this is the right way to do things. And you're essentially saying, that's not really the right predictor here. We haven't been looking at the right thing. What's the evidence that you have when it comes to number of followers or people who are actually following this charismatic personality that says this is the right outcome? So let's separate a few things.

1:05:27On the team stuff, there's a bunch of research I mentioned, Anita Williams-Willi, and there's several studies that back the same thing, that teams with more emotional intelligence outperform. On the leadership side, when you actually look at all of the studies on people who've gotten MBAs versus those who didn't, they find that there's absolutely no improvement in performance whatsoever, having an MBA versus not, compared, and there's like several of these studies on the three-year mark, five-year mark, seven-year mark, there's no evidence in better management skills or anything like that. And so the skills that we're told are essential, we might not really be able to train them in the way that these programs are running.

1:06:08The reason I ask about your, I don't know you want to jump in, but the reason I ask about the credentialing here is because you have this background in having these dinners, hosting thousands of people over the last 10 years. 15, yeah. 15 people, 15 years, 4 ,000 people. Yep. These are private influencer dinners where you have had Nobel laureates, Olympians. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. All at different times in the world. And be together. What are the takeaways that you've been able to gather from getting this disparate group of people together? Or watch us live on YouTube.

1:06:42So there's kind of two main things that I've really noticed. The first is that all of them are at the top of their industry. Whether they're commanding the International Space Station or they're running a major company. and none of them have the same characteristics at all. Malala does not produce results in the same way as a military commander, but people follow and will go very far in both cases, right, to support that cause. The second is, and this is kind of a wilder thing that people don't really notice, is that no matter how successful people are, they tend not to feel like they fit in or belong.

1:07:24Because the CEO knows that they've had three great quarters, but if the next two are off, they might be out of a job. And the Olympian knows that maybe they won at the last Olympics, but who knows if they'll even qualify at the next one, and then no one will care. And so no matter what, there's this absolute factor that people feel a great desire to want to fit in and belong. Which brings me to my real desire to understand is clearly those leadership traits didn't matter. And if there's such a great desire to belong, it's because human beings tend to be best with each other. So let's try and understand at our core, what will allow us to be best with each other.

1:08:02And that's what the book explores, which is what are the characteristics that makes teams smarter than the sum of their parts?

1:08:07Carol Massar:Okay. So why, if that is our driving force, when I look at Congress, and I know you layer politics on things and things change, but if we are better - They cannot be studied. If we are better as a group and a community, and yes, indeed, right? They have to vote on things. And so when they work together, things can actually move forward or at least move. Why does that not work its way out? So that's, I think, a great question. And I want to be very clear. I don't study politics. I'm not an expert. And full disclosure, Like you lay politics on everything and it can be a little bit different. I'm under the impression that things changed, and this is what I've been told, after Newt Gingrich was in Congress, because he really pushed for less cooperation and also for people to spend more time in their home districts.

1:08:58Now, when that occurs, then we have something called the mere exposure effect. The mere exposure effect is simply, here's the funny thing. Have you ever, what would you consider the greatest painting of all time?

1:09:10Carol Massar:Well, people will say Mona Lisa. Exactly. Do you know why? Isn't it the perfectly symmetrical face? That's what they'll tell you, but that's frankly not true. In 1911, a man walked into the Louvre on a Monday while it was closed. The Louvre was protected by 11 mostly drunk legionnaires and walked into the Renaissance section, ripped the smallest painting he could off the wall, took it out of its frame, and then wrapped it in a workman's mock and walked out. That was the Mona Lisa, wasn't it? Yeah. Newspapers around the world spread images of it and that's the first time almost anybody had ever heard of it it was not considered a great painting three years later it was returned once again newspapers around the world rejoiced and it was a way to it was the build-up to world war one so it was a way to make fun of the french government and its incompetence at the time now human beings tend to like and trust the things that they're familiar with and when you see your the person who might be across the aisle picking up kids at school and your kids are in the same class and you're at the same birthday parties and you've developed familiarity and trust and all these other factors outside of that voting room, then suddenly you tend to treat people with more humanity and have a greater ability to work with them.

1:10:30And so much like the Mona Lisa is not really a great painting if you actually speak to historians, And the lack of that mere exposure and the trust that develops from interacting outside of these traditional negotiations, we've lost a lot of that.

1:10:48Carol Massar:Well, and we always bring up Alan Greenspan saying years ago about how when he was in Washington, people, actually Democrats, Republicans, went to cocktail parties together. And so, you know, you have a glass of wine with somebody and, you know, you kind of relate. You're much more relatable, if you will. John, this was really, really fun. And hopefully we can catch up again in the future. I'd be honored. Thank you for having me. Yeah, John Levy. He's a behavioral scientist, New York Times bestselling author. His new book is Team Intelligence, How Brilliant Leaders Unlock Collective Genius, joining us right here in studio.

1:11:17Were you invited to one of those secret dinners ever?

1:11:19Carol Massar:It's secret, so I can't tell. Oh, okay. Yeah, same. Same.

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1:15:08Carol Massar:Oh, it is, right? Yeah. I forgot about that. Also, there's this little smoothie shop when I was growing up. It was called Juice Club. Ah. And for special treats after school, I would get to go to Juice Club. My parents would take me there or our babysitter would take us there. Sounds like you loved it. Yeah. It was started by this guy who went to Cal Poly. And Juice Club is what Jamba Juice was before they did a rebrand, did an IPO, and became the company that it's known for now. I love that. So Jamba Juice is - It began as Juice Club on Foothill. James D. White knows all about this. He's former CEO of Jamba Juice.

1:15:45He led it from 2008 to 2016. He's also the author of several books. His new book out this month, along with Krista White, called Culture Design, How to Build a High-Performing, Resilient Organization with Purpose. He's also the chairman of the board of The Honest Company. He's co-founder, chair, and CEO of Culture Design Lab. He's a board member at the fast casual chain Kava. He joins us from Scottsdale, Arizona. Good to have you on the program, James. How are you? Sam and Carol, thanks for hosting me. When you were CEO of Jamba, did you ever get to go to that Foothill location in San Luis Obispo?

1:16:19Absolutely. The original. That was the one. Okay, that's amazing. And got to spend time with Kirk Perrin, the fantastic founder who we lost a few years ago. Yeah, very tragic. Well, I want to talk a little bit about culture design, how to build a high performing, resilient organization with purpose. But first, I just want to remind everybody about what Jamba Juice was when you were leading it from 2008 to 2016. It's now owned by a private equity firm, but it did have a life as a publicly traded company. What was Jamba Juice under your tenure? Well, I joined Jamba in December 2008 and led the company through a turnaround and transformation.

1:17:09We're a public company. Market cap over my tenure increased by 500%. We really repositioned the company from a smoothie chain to more healthy lifestyle brand. but had a great run, you know, 28 quarters as a public company CEO.

1:17:31Carol Massar:So tell us about like going through your experiences and kind of what you learned in terms of running a company, building a company, going through different cycles, what that has taught you. I think for me, the place I always started, I just go back to really my first week on the job at Jamba is you start with the people, you start with the key stakeholders. And, you know, for me, as I go back to that first week, we asked, you know, four simple questions. What should the organization start doing? What should we stop doing? And what are the things that are working well that we should continue? And then the final bonus question is what advice would you have for me as CEO?

1:18:15And we really leverage that approach with really all of our stakeholder groups and use that to build a plan to turn around and transform the company. But I always start with people first. The thesis of our book is companies have culture by design or default. So always be intentional in building a company's culture. So talk about who those key stakeholders are. And then I have this follow-up question that I think Carol will nod because she kind of knows exactly where I'm going. When you start on a board or when you're a decision maker at a company, who are the stakeholders you speak to to understand the culture?

1:18:55Yeah, I always start with the employees because they actually know what actually needs to be done to really re-energize or strengthen the company. So I started with the hundred or so employees that were in our support center that supported all our But stores, obviously, the frontline workforce is a source of fantastic input, the board of directors, key suppliers. But also we talk to consumers as a part of that process as we formulated the original transformation plan at Jamba. So connect that with company performance, because, you know, in Zoom just reported earnings, for example. And when we look at any company that reports its most recent quarter, we talk about numbers like the outlook.

1:19:45We talk about top line revenue. We talk about margins. We talk about outlooks or we talk about what happened in the current quarter. What we don't talk about is the company's culture. We don't talk about how happy employees are or if they're not happy. We don't talk about customer satisfaction because investors don't necessarily trade on those things. How do you connect those non-tangibles to the actual numbers that a public company reports? Yeah, the way I think about it is, and I've got a colleague of mine, a board colleague of mine, that says the human capital drives the financial capital. And that directly relates to the people and relates to the company culture.

1:20:28We think about culture being the huge unlock in this environment. And the reason we wrote the book Culture Design is we felt like with the dramatic change over the course of the last five years, the thing that we've not talked about as much as we need to is we look at hybrid work, the influences of AI as the company culture and how that shift needs to happen. The best companies become change savvy in terms of how they lead the companies moving forward. And the book has three pillars. Knowing what matters. That's really about the context that the company operates in. Doing what matters. How do you operationalize culture?

1:21:12How does culture really live day to day inside an organization? And then anything in business that matters, you actually measure it. And, you know, there are both hard and soft measurements, you know, employee engagement. There's poll surveys. There's net promoter scores, but there's employee net promoter scores that are one of the things that I find incredibly helpful. But the best leaders are thinking harder about this, whether they're in the boardroom or running companies today.

1:21:46Carol Massar:Hey, James, one thing I want to ask you, and I'm just curious, you wrote this with your daughter, Krista. And I was just looking at one thing in, I think it's page 96 here, and how she has kind of taught you that an effective leader actually shares a lot of their life journey, is a lot more transparent with folks at work. And it's interesting, like, I've often heard people like, your personal life is your personal life. Don't bring it to the office. Keep them separate. Like, you just don't share stuff. And yet, you know, your lifeline is in there and like all the things that you've gone through in your life.

1:22:25Carol Massar:And I'm just, the importance of like leaders and leadership sharing their life journey with the folks that work with them. We think that empathy is really a core capability. And And one of the things that I've learned in my work with my millennial daughter is, you know, kind of sharing more of myself really strengthens the ability for me to connect with leaders and people on a really different level. So this is not really where I started as a leader, but have kind of learned this over the arc of a career. And it's really a force multiplier. When we get to know each other as human beings, we can find the things that are common.

1:23:11And what I found from a leadership perspective is that allows you to unlock the full potential of the organization by being more human and kind of humanizing the leader. We interviewed one leader that describes his version of this as he provides new teams that he joins. Sam Bright, he runs Google Play. He describes a user manual on how to best work with him as a leader. He does some of the same kinds of things where he shares information on his family and background, which is really a shortcut to how we might work best together as colleagues. James, before we let you go, you've written, this is not your first book that you've written along with your daughter, Krista.

1:23:57Back in 2022, you wrote Anti-Racist Leadership, How to Transform Corporate Culture in a Race-Conscious World. We spent a lot of time, Carol and I have been doing this together for five years. And over that period of time, the conversation around DEI has changed a lot. Most recently, the iteration is these companies getting rid of DEI programs, not talking about it anymore.

1:24:19Carol Massar:There's not being a conversation around it. Yeah, I mean, we're talking, we're doing a deep dive on Target in just a few minutes, and they've gone through their own issues with this. I'm just wondering what the state of how you view DEI and anti-racism now in 2025 and how that's different among C-suite executives versus 2022. Yes, I think the conversation has definitely changed, but I think the best leaders, at least the best leaders that I work with, they've got a true north. They're very focused on their values. And they know that if you put people first and you create an environment where all the humans get to do their best work, you're going to always win.

1:25:06And what I always advise companies and the leaders that I work with, the labeling of things I'm less concerned with, I'm more concerned with, you know, really the true north of the organization and how we focused on creating environments where everybody can do their very best work. And that starts with people and it starts with culture by design.

1:25:28Carol Massar:I would assume that then that is like if you had to give one piece of advice to leaders that are out there and they get so much advice. But I'm just curious, is that what it would be or something else? And just got about 40 seconds here. It would be, you know, really put the human beings, the people in your organization first and work hard to create and design environments where they can do their very best work and bring their full selves to the organization. And I think it will yield great benefits that will deliver high performance results. Well, very much appreciate it, James. Thank you so much.

1:26:02Carol Massar:James D. White, former CEO of Jamba Juice. He led the company from 2008 to 2016. he is the co-author of a book that he did with his daughter, a second book that he did with his daughter. This book though, Culture Design, How to Build a High-Performing, Resilient Organization with Purpose. And you can catch that book. It is out now. James, thank you so much. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern on Bloomberg.com. the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn, and the Bloomberg Business app.

1:26:41You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.

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