In short
Global geopolitics and technology amid U.S.-China tensions, plus related coverage of AI/data centers and AI’s societal risks.
Guest
Heidi Kribo-Redeker, Senior Fellow for Geoeconomics at the Council on Foreign Relations, following high-level meetings in/around New York.
Key claims
Global leaders worry about U.S. trustworthiness under Trump policy, especially toward allies. Europe is “threading the needle” between U.S. pressure on China and its own economic exposure to Chinese overcapacity (e.g., autos/EV supply) and critical-infrastructure risks. The U.S.-China relationship remains interdependent, but China’s “dual circulation” aims to reduce reliance on others while still needing exports. Xi-Trump summit focus includes critical minerals; a “critical minerals truce” is set to expire in November, and minerals underpin AI/data centers and energy.
Notable examples
Canada hedging from U.S. due to rhetoric like “51st state”; Spain’s concerns about China trade deficits; China supporting Russia’s war machine; heat plumes from AI data centers (up to ~300 feet) fueling local opposition.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOU.S.-China Relations and Global Trust
2:18 to 5:01
Discussion on the dynamics of U.S.-China relations and global trust issues.
“So I think, I mean, this is a very important gathering in New York.”
Canada-U.S. Relations and Economic Interdependence
5:01 to 6:18
Exploration of the complexities in U.S.-Canada relations amid economic ties.
“So, you know, we've always talked, Heidi, for such a long time about how the U.S.”
China's Economic Strategy and Global Impact
6:18 to 10:01
Insights on China's dual circulation economy and its effects on global markets.
“I think we want to be able to sell more than just agricultural products to China, although they're very, very important, especially for our farmers right now to be able to have those export markets.”
European Political Shifts and Challenges
14:00 to 18:03
Explore the rise of far-right parties in Europe and their implications.
“And with Morocco we have a great relationship.”
Trade Talks and Economic Dependencies
18:03 to 20:59
Discussing Europe's trade deficit with China and the need for economic diversification.
“And this is affecting not only households, industries, our economies, but also the public finances of many countries in the world.”
Future of the European Central Bank
20:59 to 21:14
Opinions on leadership prospects for the European Central Bank.
“in these very complex and difficult moments.”
Future of the European Central Bank
21:27 to 22:31
Opinions on leadership prospects for the European Central Bank.
“AI is creating a new path for musical stardom.”
Future of the European Central Bank
23:17 to 24:13
Opinions on leadership prospects for the European Central Bank.
“You already know how AI is changing how everyday work gets done, how much ground you can cover, and how fast a team can scale.”
Heat Impact of Data Centers
24:13 to 28:06
Examining the environmental effects of data centers and public opposition.
“You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast.”
Impact of Data Centers on Urban Heat
28:06 to 31:20
Explore how the increasing power use of data centers is raising urban heat levels.
“We've talked about, you know, other, other parts of the data center story and why people are opposed to them, but now, now it seems like they're paying attention to heat.”
Show all 15 chapters
AI's Influence on Music Creation
31:35 to 32:40
Discuss the rise of AI in music production and its implications.
“AI is creating a new path for musical stardom.”
AI Concerns and the Future
34:28 to 37:50
Examine the societal impacts of AI as discussed by industry experts.
“You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast.”
Apple's Potential Health Band Rival
37:51 to 42:01
Discuss the implications of Apple's potential entry into the health band market.
“I think there's a huge risk and I think they understand it.”
Discussion on Wearable Health Tech
42:01 to 44:18
Exploration of the growing competition in the wearable health tech market, focusing on Apple's potential new product and the innovation of other companies.
“But, you know, you look at the market penetration.”
Discussion on Wearable Health Tech
44:48 to 45:15
Exploration of the growing competition in the wearable health tech market, focusing on Apple's potential new product and the innovation of other companies.
“If you've ever waited on a refill or couldn't schedule an appointment, you get it.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Bloomberg Businessweek Daily is brought to you by HPE, bringing you the self-driving network, a network that's self-optimizing, self-healing, and self-protecting, and only continues to get smarter. Learn more at hpe.com slash networking.
0:14Carol Massar:Some people treat ChatGPT like some kind of smart search engine, and some use it to get work done. ChatGPT Work is a new way of working in ChatGPT that can take action across your apps and files, stay with a project for hours if needed, and turn a goal into finished work. It's designed to help you move from a chaotic starting point to a reviewable first version. So all the source materials, briefs, and scattered information that you have to grind through to turn into something useful can just become something useful. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.
0:56Carol Massar:This is Robert Smith from Business History. If you're listening to this, there's a good chance you're a small business owner. And like every small business owner, you started with a dream to do what you love and watch it grow. What you probably didn't dream about? Keeping up with cyber threats. That's where MasterCard can help with access to tools that help identify cyber threats to better protect your business. Building your dream business? Priceless. For cybersecurity in a changing world, there's MasterCard. Learn more at MasterCard.com slash small business. Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts.
1:32Carol Massar:Radio. News.
1:58Carol Massar:We want to check in with our guest who is joining us right here in studio, Heidi Kribo-Redeker. She is a senior fellow for geoeconomics at the Council on Foreign Relations. She's been following the high-level meetings here going in and around New York City. Good to have you here. We're waiting for some leaders. Some are early, some are late. That's the way it goes. There's traffic in New York City. We are talking to lots of leaders. And I think always top of mind, certainly considering kind of our domestic political climate and then our relationship with the world, meaning the United States, I think about kind of what it means and how global leaders are looking at the U.S.
2:36Carol Massar:right now. How do you see it? So I think, I mean, this is a very important gathering in New York. And I do think we've seen some fireworks already. The conversations when I speak with governments outside of the U.S., particularly Europe, Asia, is really trying to figure out where we're going with the current Trump policy vis-a-vis allies. And then the big U.S.-China question about what is this upcoming summit between Trump and Xi going to deliver? And really, because we've seen this administration pivot more towards the Western hemisphere, but also away from allies and partners, how do we get trust back?
3:21Carol Massar:And so I think that the trust is really the big question on a lot of leaders' minds. I want to get to the state visit from Xi Jinping by Xi Jinping in a minute, but on the allies question. I had an interesting conversation recently with a Canadian business person who was talking to me about the political environment in Canada and how he views U.S.-Canada relations. And he said something that struck me, and it was that he doesn't think that the relationship between the U.S. and Canada will be repaired even by the next president, no matter who it is. I know a lot of Canadians about this. I mean, I come from New England.
3:58Carol Massar:Anyone who lives sort of on the border with Canada knows how tightly interrelated not only the economies are, but also families. And the ties are very deep. And yeah, I'm hearing the same message. And one of the challenges is that Canada actually has and has delivered the kind of security chain resilience that we need right now, whether it is in energy for our energy security, critical minerals. We have a$150 billion bilateral trading relationship with Canada. And now they are so concerned about our approach towards Canada and the rhetoric about the 51st state that they are pivoting and hedging away from the United States.
4:44Carol Massar:So you have Mark Carney, a very climate-focused prime minister who is all about building pipelines to try and make sure that they have diversification plans. So that, I think, is very unfortunate for the U.S. because that kind of infrastructure is permanent. So, you know, we've always talked, Heidi, for such a long time about how the U.S. and China need one another. Is that still the case? I mean, China has been trying desperately to continue to develop its domestic market. It's not there. We buy a lot of stuff. So I am just curious about that symbiotic relationship. Does it still exist? So there's certainly, I mean, it definitely still exists.
5:25Carol Massar:The question, I think, more is for China, because they have this very specific plan for a dual circulation economy where they depend less and less and less on the rest of the world. But their economic future is dependent on being able to export more and more and more to the rest of the world. And it's really that's the foundation of many of the questions that not just the U.S. and Europe and Japan, but also developing countries, because they're getting the sort of excess capacity flooding into markets right now. And so it's really, is that sustainable for the rest of the world with China producing at the scale it is?
6:01At the same time, there's a lot of stuff that China can do that the rest of the world can't do.
6:06Carol Massar:Absolutely. And I don't see that changing with no matter which countries look inward. That's the way it's been. And I think at least in our lifetimes, that's not going to change. I think we want to be able to continue to sell goods to China. I think we want to be able to sell more than just agricultural products to China, although they're very, very important, especially for our farmers right now to be able to have those export markets. But I do think, you know, as we look at the integration of dual use into many of the technologies, and particularly when you get to the AI overlay in technologies, you're going to have a lot more of a diversification of needing to sort of separate things.
6:54Carol Massar:What is strategic in national security buckets and what is not? You know, Europe is also bearing the brunt of a lot of the Chinese export machine, particularly in the automotive sector, and just flooding the market. And because the U.S. has been a lot more aggressive, let's just say, on the Terra front, a lot of the exports that would have gone to the U.S. are landing in Europe. They are also far ahead of us in terms of climate and embracing EVs and electrification and renewables. what, what Spain's at the tip of the spear and wanting to do more with China. So I thought it was interesting that he's, you know, actually raising the overcapacity issue that, that trade deficit issue, um, needing to be addressed because in, in all of the different conversations with European leaders, and they all have to come to an agreement on a, on a trade agreement with, with China.
7:49Carol Massar:It's not just Spain with China, uh, having, having him say that the, that they are also concerned about this trade deficit, I think is important. Is it important because leaders of these countries need to thread this needle with the United States as well? They need to show to the United States that they're being tough on China to a certain extent to support the way that the United States right now thinks about China? So Europe is caught in the middle. It's caught in the middle of this strategic competition. And there have been pressures for years from multiple administrations in the U.S. for Europe to get on board with some of the more sort of national security questions arising from Chinese exports and the integration of critical infrastructure from China into European infrastructure.
8:40Carol Massar:So a lot of what they produce at scale and export are things that are connected infrastructure. And that poses certain risks. I don't think that they – I think Europe is – threading the needle is one way to express it. They also were very aware that China is the main support line for feeding Russia's war machine to be able to engage and continue to attack Ukraine and now attack potentially more than just gray zone European NATO members. 30 seconds left. The meeting between President Xi and President Trump. Just top of mind that we should focus on very quickly. So I focus on critical minerals, and I'm waiting to see what comes out of this.
9:30Carol Massar:I know from the most recent meetings between the vice premier and Scott Besant and then Jameson Greer said, we're not there yet on this truce. The critical minerals truce is supposed to run out in November. people don't realize when they talk about the big topic of AI between the U.S. and China is that critical minerals are the foundation to the energy part of it, to the data center part of it, to the technology side. It's part of the stack, and it starts with the critical minerals. If someone wants to bring us to our knees, just cut off those supplies. They have the trump card. Right, exactly.
10:01Carol Massar:Heidi, thank you so much, and thanks for bookending everything that's going on for us here, certainly on a global scale. Heidi, Heidi Cribo Rediker, she's Senior Fellow for Geoeconomics at the Council on Foreign Relations joining us here in studio. Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Business Week Daily coming up after this.
10:22Bloomberg Business Week Daily is brought to you by HPE, bringing you the self-driving network, a network that's self-optimizing, self-healing, and self-protecting, and only continues to get smarter. Learn more at hpe.com slash networking.
10:37Carol Massar:This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Now with ChatGPT work. I'm Carol Masser. AI is creating a new path for musical stardom. As Bloomberg's Lucas Shaw and Ashley Carman report, Suno, an AI-generated music company, lets users generate a song in any style based on a text prompt. People can upload their own lyrics or start from scratch, record their own voices, or rely on ones provided by Suno. While most of the songs generated on the service go unheard of by the masses, a few have taken off, including a recent TikTok trend that involves users uploading text messages to Suno and turning them into musical performances, like taking the text from A Crazy Night Out and making it a gospel song.
11:21Carol Massar:Suno's pitch to investors is that it'll democratize music creation, leading to a more than$5 billion valuation for the company. The music industry, it's watching, as its biggest concern about AI is whether record labels, rights holders, and artists will be compensated for the work they claim built the training models for companies like Suno. Another question? Will these AI bangers have any staying power or just be one-hit wonders? That's the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com today by selecting Work Mode.
11:57Carol Massar:Available on Plus and Pro plans. This is Robert Smith from Business History. If you're listening to this, there's a good chance you're a small business owner. And like every small business owner, you started with a dream to do what you love and watch it grow. What you probably didn't dream about? Keeping up with cyber threats. That's where MasterCard can help. With access to tools that help identify cyber threats to better protect your business. Building your dream business, priceless. For cybersecurity in a changing world, there's MasterCard. Learn more at MasterCard.com slash smallbusiness. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast.
12:35Carol Massar:Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Or watch us live on YouTube. Right now, we do have one of the global leaders that is in town sitting down with a member of our Bloomberg community. Yeah, high-level meetings of the U.N. General Assembly continue this week, bringing global leaders to New York City and to Bloomberg World Headquarters. Right now in our New York studio, Bloomberg's Francine Lacroix sitting down with the Prime Minister of Spain, Pedro Sanchez. Yeah, thank you both. We're delighted to be joined by the Prime Minister of Spain, Mr.
13:08Carol Massar:Pedro Sanchez. Thank you so much for joining us here at Bloomberg Global Headquarters. Now, it's been about two months since the mass arrival in Ceuta, beyond what has circulated on social media. Do you now know whether any state or organization facilitated what you called an attack on Spanish sovereignty? We're still investigating what happened those days, but there's some certainties. The first one is the economic gap between one side of the border and the other side of the border, between Morocco and Spain. Second, the use of social media to expand misinformation about the situation in Spain and Ceuta.
13:51And last but not least, a border control mechanism that has to be improved by both sides, of course Spain and of course Morocco. And with Morocco we have a great relationship. We cooperate on many issues, not only economically but also fighting against terrorism and of of course, fighting against smugglers and Urugula migration. So we have a very positive cooperation. We have asked for answers and also for actions, and they are certainly taking those actions.
14:24Carol Massar:Prime Minister, there's also a shift, right, that's more towards the right in a lot of European countries. How do you explain that? Well, I think that the farm right fits from legitimate anxieties of our society. Inequality, I would say, is the main driver. The point here is that when they start to win elections and be in government, the change is from anger to disappointment. And this is what we are witnessing, for instance, in the last elections in Sweden, where the far right decreased its electoral support. So all in all, I think that the expansion of the far right in some countries, when they are in government, after four years, the people realize that they don't deliver for the ordinary people.
15:18And I think that the challenge that we have from centrist parties, central right, central left parties, is to deliver, especially when it comes to inequality.
15:29Carol Massar:Is it a messaging problem or is it a policies problem? I also know that European leaders will discuss next month the trade deficit with China. How much of that will help? How would you deal with China today? It will be a hot topic. Because, of course, the trade deficit, especially when it comes to the European Union, it is increasing last year, also this year. So it's going to be a hot topic. We are about to begin these trade talks with the Chinese government. From the Spanish perspective, and this is what I'm always defending around the European Council table, is, okay, we need to cooperate with China because we have common challenges, such as climate change or AI technology.
16:12Second, we need also to manage our differences. And precisely when it comes to trade deficit, I think it's so massive that is not possible to absorb from the European economy. And that is why I think it's very important to manage this difference and to try to reach an agreement with the Chinese government.
16:32Carol Massar:Do you think you'll have a concrete agreement or is there anything that Europe needs to do today to really reduce the dependency on China? We need to reduce our dependency on China. We need also to reduce our rebalance, our dependencies towards other economies such as the US. and that is why I think it's very interesting what is going on in Brussels when it comes to our trade agreements, for instance with Mercosur, with India, with Australia, with Indonesia and so on and so forth. I think one of the main strengths that we have in the European Union is our, you know, willingness to open our economies and to bridge with other regions or other countries on on economics, trade, investment, and so on and so forth.
17:18Carol Massar:I mean, economically, it's tough because of the energy crisis. I mean, you've had good numbers in Spain. Yeah, well, I think this is the situation. Unfortunately, the war in Iran, again, the war in Ukraine is affecting all of us. That is why, you know, I don't understand why we are having this terrible war in Iran. Why don't we close this chapter? Why don't we try to reestablish a diplomatic relationship between the both sides? Why is it so hard, Prime Minister? I don't know. I think that there's a clear necessity of political will in order to reach that agreement. But meanwhile, we're suffering not only casualties, but also a rise of the cost of living.
18:12the gas prices, the diesel prices. And this is affecting not only households, industries, our economies, but also the public finances of many countries in the world. So, you know, I think that the big lessons that we have to take from Russia, Ukrainian war, and of course Iran war, is the need to electrify our economy. And this is something that we have been doing over the last eight years that I'm in office in Spain thanks to renewables. 60 % of our electricity nowadays comes from renewables. And we have, by far, one of the lowest electricity prices in Europe thanks to this green transition.
18:54Carol Massar:Premier, two very quick questions. One on data centres. I mean, Spain has attracted quite a lot of investment in data centres. Are you expecting more? And again, are you disappointed that Europe doesn't have an AI champion? What we want is to have the best investments when it comes to data centers. And that means that they have to be engaged with this green transition, so they have to consume renewals. Second, it has to be an improvement on water management, which is an issue in all countries, especially in Spain, which unfortunately is suffering the consequences of climate change. And last but not least, also the data sovereignty, data security, when it comes to personal data from our citizens, precisely on health, security matters, and so on and so forth.
19:47So, you know, we have launched this public consultation in Spain. We are about to pass a royal decree that we call it in Spain in order to define the framework for investing in Spain on data centers.
20:08Carol Massar:And, Premier, I know you're out of time, but just very quickly on the European Central Bank, because there's going to be shifts. We understand that Madame Lagarde may leave. Do you think it's time for a Spaniard to be at the top of the European Central Bank? And we hear the name of Pablo Hernando de Cos. Does he have your support? Of course. Of course, he has my support. I think that he has been an outstanding president of the Spanish Central Bank. I think that he has the leadership. He has also the capacity, the knowledge. And, of course, it will be, I think, very positive not only for Spain but also for Europe to have someone like him leading the central bank.
20:50But this is something that, of course, we need to talk with the rest of member states of the Eurozone. And, of course, it will be the first time that Spain leads this very important institution in these very complex and difficult moments.
21:04Carol Massar:MS. Prime Minister, thank you so much for joining us today. We could talk for another two hours, so we'll have to rearrange another interview. Always a pleasure. That was, of course, Prime Minister Sanchez of Spain. Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily coming up after this.
21:22Carol Massar:This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Now with ChatGPT work. I'm Carol Masser. AI is creating a new path for musical stardom. As Bloomberg's Lucas Shaw and Ashley Carman report, Suno, an AI-generated music company, lets users generate a song in any style based on a text prompt. People can upload their own lyrics or start from scratch, record their own voices, or rely on ones provided by Suno. While most of the songs generated on the service go unheard of by the masses, a few have taken off, including a recent TikTok trend that involves users uploading text messages to Suno and turning them into musical performances.
22:02Carol Massar:like taking the text from a crazy night out and making it a gospel song. Suno's pitch to investors is that it'll democratize music creation, leading to a more than$5 billion valuation for the company. The music industry? It's watching, as its biggest concern about AI is whether record labels, rights holders, and artists will be compensated for the work they claim built the training models for companies like Suno. Another question? Will these AI bangers have any staying power or just be one-hit wonders? That's the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects.
22:38Carol Massar:Get started at ChatGPT.com today by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro Plans. This is Robert Smith from Business History. If you're listening to this, there's a good chance you're a small business owner. And like every small business owner, you started with a dream to do what you love and watch it grow. What you probably didn't dream about? Keeping up with cyber threats. That's where MasterCard can help, with access to tools that help identify cyber threats to better protect your business. Building your dream business? Priceless. For cybersecurity in a changing world, there's MasterCard.
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24:19Carol Massar:You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Or watch us live on YouTube. We are sticking with the environment and with technology. This is one of the most read stories on the Bloomberg Terminal today. We know Americans oppose data centers. They're hulking power and water use. Now they're rallying against them for another reason, and that is heat. Yep. Behind the walls of an AI data center, massive racks of servers hum around the clock. The more electricity they use, the more heat they create.
24:55Carol Massar:We get it. We know even any kind of like I feel like any kind of equipment around here. We have lots of air conditioning to control that heat. Kyle Stock is a senior correspondent for Bloomberg News. He joins us from beautiful Boulder, Colorado on this Wednesday afternoon. Kyle, as you and Elena Mejia report, a single facility can use over 50 megawatts of electricity. Can you can you just contextualize that amount of electricity, what it means and and the heat that's generated from consuming that electricity? Yeah, scientifically, there's a pretty direct relationship between electricity use and heat exhaust.
25:32There's not a lot of ways to get around that. And that's roughly about 53 ,000 homes, the heat you would expect from sort of the typical energy use in a house. So we're talking about multitudes more than basically residential development or sort of any kind of urban development. And this is one of those things that's kind of surprising to the industry. It's the science is just coming out on this now. But then when you think of it, it's it's not really surprising at all. It's sort of like, well, why don't we notice this sooner?
26:09Carol Massar:It's, you know, first of all, I highly recommend everybody check this out on the Bloomberg. It's just the graphics are incredible. But you talk about how, Kyle, data centers cool their systems with cold air. They discharge it then off and off of rooftop systems. And as a result, heat plumes are created. And I'm just reading from the story. These plumes, these heat plumes can travel over 300 feet beyond the data center in certain wind conditions. And the point is you're talking about hotter temperatures. And as a result, nearby areas potentially have to use what more air conditioning or raise their air conditioning and it's higher costs.
26:47Yeah, it's so like I said, the science is new, but they're basically driving around these data centers with monitoring the heat and how it would compare to what's typical. and they're finding up to a third of a mile and a temperature change of like three to nine degrees, which is not nothing, especially in some of the really hot urban areas like Phoenix, where these things are. And this is kind of the flip side of what Kara was talking about. It's great not to use water to cool these things, but when you don't use water, you have to use air. And when you use air, you get this heat emissions and what they're calling a heat island, which is basically an urban environment as a heat island already because of blacktop because of roofs etc but it's sort of exacerbated by these data centers yeah i mean anyone who's like walked through uh manhattan on a hot day in the summer uh and then gone just like an outer borough yeah felt the temperature difference like you can understand why why buildings are are sources of of heat and certainly sources, uh, in this case, a data center would be.
27:56So then, so then bring us up to speed on, on how this is now turning into a rallying cry for groups that are opposing data centers. We've talked about, you know, other, other parts of the data center story and why people are opposed to them, but now, now it seems like they're paying attention to heat. Why is that? basically because the science is starting to catch up to the technology here um there are physicists uh urban planners mechanical engineers basically just starting to study this effect which is it's not surprising um but there's there's finally some good data on it uh and you know any pick any survey you want nobody loves a data center no one especially loves one near their home.
28:45So the opposition playbook, this is becoming a powerful tool, especially in places like Phoenix. And then on top of that, you have, there's good economic reasons for these data centers to be in urban areas. They're closer to end users. There's good fiber optic infrastructure. So, you know, it's a fast connection. So a lot of these data centers are in urban areas and a lot of them are clustered because there's economies of scale and building them together. So that's That's where this really compounds, not only just a big data center sucking up a lot of energy, but when there's a lot of them together and they're in an urban area.
29:23So literally in the opposition, though, you see these groups are writing playbooks. They're like circulating ways to oppose these things. And they're literal playbooks like you can download them. And this is getting on their radar and this is an effective tool.
29:37Carol Massar:I think what's also interesting that you guys remind us, right, Kyle, that data centers are not new. We've had them for a long time. But using AI chips, as you guys write, that their power use growing exponentially and so is their thermal footprint. And you guys write and report pretty much all the electricity powering data centers turns into heat. So that's a big difference. right and that's even without in a lot of cases taking into account the extra heat from the energy load needed to serve these data centers so you need a new natural gas plant to feed the power to these things that's a whole nother heat issue so yeah it's substantial one expert you spoke to for this described and i think this is a great way to describe it is like basically a giant laptop and anyone who sat with a laptop on their lap understands the heat that it generates.
30:34Carol Massar:Which always freaks me out, can I just say. We only have 20 seconds left, but can you just describe the tools, the thermal imaging that has been used to gather data in this? Yeah, I mean, the scientists are using real temperature measurements, but we were kind of curious, so we hired a drone pilot with infrared technology to just fly over and around some of these data centers, and you can see it. I mean, the temperature is coming off the exhaust fans in the roof. It's 130 degrees, something like that. It's totally evident. And these developers are trying to do the right thing. They invent the things vertically.
31:11Carol Massar:Yeah. But it's tough. So it's not AI that's going to kill us. It's the heat from the data centers. Kyle Stock, so appreciate it. Thank you for joining us. Stay with us. More from Bloomberg Businessweek Daily coming up after this.
31:31Carol Massar:This is the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Now with ChatGPT work. I'm Carol Masser. AI is creating a new path for musical stardom. As Bloomberg's Lucas Shaw and Ashley Carman report, Suno, an AI-generated music company, lets users generate a song in any style based on a text prompt. People can upload their own lyrics or start from scratch, record their own voices, or rely on ones provided by Suno. While most of the songs generated on the service go unheard of by the masses, a few have taken off, including a recent TikTok trend that involves users uploading text messages to Suno and turning them into musical performances, like taking the text from a crazy night out and making it a gospel song.
32:15Carol Massar:Suno's pitch to investors is that it'll democratize music creation, leading to a more than$5 billion valuation for the company. The music industry, it's watching, as its biggest concern about AI is whether record labels, rights holders, and artists will be compensated for the work they claim built the training models for companies like Suno. Another question? Will these AI bangers have any staying power or just be one-hit wonders? That's the Bloomberg Tech Minute brought to you by ChatGPT. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at chatgpt.com today by selecting Work Mode, available on Plus and Pro plans.
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34:28Carol Massar:You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. Or watch us live on YouTube. Hey, we're sticking with technology and AI. I want to bring in Mark Gurman. He's managing editor for Global Consumer Tech. He joins us from our LA Bureau. Mark, I... Do you want to ask him if he's worried about AI? Yeah, I mean, I do. I don't know, Mark. I know you're super busy. I don't know if you had a chance to listen to Dario Amadei or Sam Altman at the UN just now. We were listening to it.
35:02So much of your reporting about AI has had to do with the way that Apple hasn't actually been catching up to some of these rivals. and some of these other tech companies. I'm just curious where you stand and where you fall in the view about the so-called AI apocalypse. Haven't we talked about this before? I thought I had some pretty... Oh, then maybe it was on another show. I have some deep thoughts on this. All right, well, we have time, Mark. Well, I like what Apple's doing. Now, I'll give context. And I like what Meta's doing. I like what they're doing because it seems like they're trying to develop up AI products that help augment society, augment people, augment the ability for people to get work done, be more social, get answers to their questions, plan things, write things, jog their memories.
35:55Apple's not done a very good job at it, but they do have that thesis that they are following and they'll get good at it over time, I'm sure. MetaMuse, if you've used it, you know they've gotten good at it out the gate. What I'm seeing from OpenAI and Anthropic is this decision to create models that are powerful enough that they can create their own models and go off and do their own things and replace humans, not make humans better, not augment humans, not serve as a co-pilot through life. I don't like that. I don't like that at all. I think the use cases for ChatGPT and Claude today, they're pretty good.
36:32And if those two companies focus on just making the current use cases better and expanding use cases that help people throughout their day, I think we'd be in a very good place. But this idea of building things that could replace humans, it's terrible for society. And people, I think, are going to start rebelling and turning against those companies.
36:53Carol Massar:That's sobering. Yeah. No, I'm glad we did ask you again. I know we cover a lot of ground with you, but it's hard to disagree with that assessment. Speaking of assessments, let's talk about what's going on in Apple because we've been... Well, I want to say one more thing. Yeah, please. I want to say one more thing. Yeah. You know, there's a lot of people concerned about AI replacing jobs and, you know, putting people out of work. And that's a horrible thing. But the implications of some of the things that are being built go way further than that, Right. Talk about replacing jobs is one thing, but replacing people in society is another.
37:35Right. Replacing typical societal roles for human beings. It is it's very it's a very deep and I think it's out of control. It's existential, Mark. It's existential. And it doesn't does it does it sound like the folks you talk to in Silicon Valley around these companies get it? I think there's a huge risk and I think they understand it. But I also think on the AI, the core AI research side of things, the things that you're seeing out of open AI and anthropic, they're pretty laser focused on just doing it. We'll see what happens. I don't think the world is ending tomorrow. I don't think the world is ending, period.
38:15But I do think the government, if I may, needs to get involved and slap some regulations down on this. This is very different than the space race 50 years ago, 60 years ago.
38:25Carol Massar:So do you agree with Sam and Altman in terms of, do you take them at face value that they're saying we need some coordination and oversight? I don't know why he would make that up, but we have to see the pudding. We have to see what happens in the end. People say things and maybe it's true, but sitting here today, there's no way to know where this is going to shake out. Mark, speaking of government. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry? I'm not concerned for myself. I'm just concerned about the long term of the world, you know? Yeah. Look, this is one of the reasons we love talking about you. You bring a really important perspective to this and make us think about this technology.
39:05This really important technology, and, you know, like we're talking about, it is existential. You mentioned the government, and that's kind of where we want to go. We want to go to Washington, D.C. because Mark Zuckerberg of Meta, NVIDIA CEO Jensen Wong, OpenAI President Greg Brockman, Microsoft CEO Satya Nadella, Tim Cook, Executive Chair of Apple. They will all be at a White House state dinner for Chinese President Xi Jinping this week. The technology folks who are going to be there, what are they doing there? Why are they there? You should ask them. You should email Tim Cook and ask him if he wants to come on your show and ask him, so why are you going to the White House?
39:44You kind of have to, right? How could you not? Yeah. You've seen what happens to tech companies who don't attend Trump things and sometimes they'll blast them. I think it would be a bigger distraction for a tech company to not attend this event than to attend the event. Is that a good thing that not attending a White House state dinner should put you in the crosshairs of the government? Probably not. But I think it's the reality that we're that we're living in. So we got do we have time? I think we have time. I want to make sure we have time, Mark, because you have to go in one minute. We're going to switch gears because Caroline could not stop talking about this yesterday.
40:24We want it now. A potential rival to the Whoop health band potentially coming from Apple. You reported on this story. It had reverberations around the world yesterday. It might not happen, but if it does, what will it be and when will we get it? Well, I think it'll happen and I think it'll be two years from now. And I think it's going to have reverberations. I think Apple's realized that the Apple Watch with the display, it does not fit all purposes that people want a smart band for, a smart watch for. At this point, people want something even more health and fitness centric. They want something they could, you know, raise weights with without, you know, hurting the wrist.
40:57They want something that you can sleep with more comfortably. And I think they're going to deliver that. But Apple aside for a second, that is very exciting. Meta is making some real blockbuster announcements later today. Oh. Some real blockbuster announcements with some surprises. Have me on again tomorrow. I want to talk about it. Okay. It's a really big deal. Wait, wait, wait.
41:16Carol Massar:Wait, sounds like Mark, like. We'll find out. Mark would tell us. I can't talk about it. I know. Here's the thing. Mark would tell us if he could tell us. They're on fire right now. Yeah. It feels like. With Muse. Meta? Yeah. It's good timing. It's good timing for this. All right. So, Mark, a subscription. The Whoop is free, but starts$199 a year for subscription. Do you think Apple's would have a subscription that would be a similar price? I don't know. That's not Apple's business model. Apple's never done hardware as a subscription other than these new leasing programs. So I'd be pretty surprised if they went in that direction.
41:49I think more likely is that the band costs money and then, you know, the health stuff becomes a subscription rather than the band being the subscription. Smart move? I would take one. I would take one. Absolutely a smart move. Yeah. But, you know, you look at the market penetration. Aura plus Whoop is probably, what, 10 million units, you know, 10 million active users. that's small potatoes for Apple. So it's not going to be as big as people think, I think, from the outset, but it's good to have that compelling alternative. Could be a challenge to Whoop, especially as it's valued at over$10 billion and might go public soon.
42:25It's interesting. It's interesting. These health companies, Aura, Whoop, they're innovating. Apple's not innovated in the smartwatch space for a while. In fact, they're copying these guys. They copied a lot of the software with the new Apple watches, and so it's time for them to copy the hardware too, but with the Apple fit and finish. I think it'll be popular. a band with a week of battery life and you have to rarely take it off and it's comfortable. And Apple has so much expertise in fabrics and component miniaturization. They'll do a good job on this. I will tell you now, if I may, to borrow your words, Mark, like I would be, I would buy this product on day one and I would not, I can't say that about any other Apple product.
43:03That's interesting. Why? Because you just. I would love something without a screen on my wrist that seamlessly integrates in the Apple ecosystem. And I imagine, given the history and what Apple has done in health and wellness, that it's going to be a pretty good dashboard.
43:17Carol Massar:Mark, I want to go back to a jawbone. Is that really sad? No, it was so simple. And it worked. I mean, it had some certainly. That's old school. I know. But it was simple. I slept well. It worked. I loved it. But, okay. So this isn't going to be like a jawbone. It's going to be a lot more stuff on it. uh the jawbone was real old school and that launched before a lot of these health sensors blew up and these capabilities expanded so this would be much more capable and thinner than the jawbone and better battery life all right right now one was kind of cool it was ahead of its time i know very simple i loved it and it really worked well i loved it how it woke me up um when i wasn't in my deep sleep that really like made my sleep much better um i'm just putting it out there mark Mark, we want you tomorrow.
44:02Carol Massar:So since there's some news. I'll see you then. Okay. Deal. Mark Gurman. We love Mark Gurman. He's managing editor for Global Consumer Tech for Bloomberg News. Check out all of his stories and his entire team's stories on the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg.com. This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast. Available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from 2 to 5 p.m. Eastern on Bloomberg.com, the iHeartRadio app, TuneIn and the Bloomberg Business app. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg Terminal.
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From the publisher
The people, companies and trends shaping the global economy. Watch Carol and Tim LIVE every day on YouTube: http://bit.ly/3vTiACF
President Donald Trump welcomes China's Xi Jinping to Washington today for a state visit that looks more focused on pageantry than policy, with low expectations for breakthroughs on long-standing feuds. The summit will bring together a robust gathering of US corporate leaders, but no comparable delegation from China, raising questions about the prospects of even any new business. One area Trump and Xi may find common ground is AI safety. While Silicon Valley debates the possibility of the technology wiping out humanity, Washington and Beijing have signaled no intention to slow down development. Meanwhile, energy risks and related inflationary impacts tied to conflict in the Middle East continue to weigh on global economies.
On today's episode:
- Heidi Crebo-Rediker, Senior Fellow for Geoeconomics at the Council on Foreign Relations
- Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez
- Kyle Stock, Bloomberg News Senior Correspondent
- Mark Gurman, Bloomberg News Managing Editor for Global Consumer Tech
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