Fauci Takes the Fifth & Blanche Confirmation in Jeopardy

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1:28This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. Under the advice of my attorneys, I will invoke my right under the Fifth Amendment of the Constitution to refrain from answering your questions. Dr. Anthony Fauci invoked the Fifth Amendment more than 100 times and declined to answer dozens of questions from senators in a tense committee hearing about his handling of the COVID-19 pandemic. The scientist who helped lead the nation's COVID-19 response was subpoenaed to testify under oath by Republican Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, who's long had an antagonistic relationship with Fauci and has pledged to put him in jail.

2:16In his opening statement, Fauci explained why he wouldn't answer the committee's questions. The sole reason he is calling me before this committee is to get me to say something. anything that could vindicate his repeated public pledges that I end up, in his words, quote, behind bars, unquote. Fauci has become a polarizing figure, even receiving death threats in the partisan divides that have festered for years about the origins and handling of the pandemic. My guest is Dave Arenberg, former Palm Beach County state attorney. Dave Fauci got a pardon in early 2025 from President Joe Biden. Explain why, despite that, he didn't want to testify.

3:09So Anthony Fauci is 85 years old, and he wants to live the rest of his life in peace and in freedom. And he saw what happened to Jim Comey, who made some comments in front of Congress that were not lies, was not perjury, but the Department of Justice prosecuted him anyways. He was on Trump's target list. Is there anyone else on Trump's target list higher than Anthony Fauci? Well, maybe Jack Smith. And Jack Smith, too, is being referred to the DOJ for allegedly making a false statement before Congress, even though – and I've read the statement – it is in no way a false statement. But this is the new weaponization of the DOJ and members of Congress are leading the way here.

3:50And so it would be a badge of honor for members of Congress to put Fauci's scalp on their wall. And so Fauci sees this and his lawyers said, do not say anything. You're covered by the fifth because although you were pardoned for crimes in the past and there were no crimes, but Biden wanted to make sure he wasn't prosecuted. The pardon does not cover perjury at this hearing. And if you speak up and you have a mistaken statement or a wrong train of thought after all, you're 85 years old, or you don't quite get the 100 ,000 documents that have been dropped just before the hearing, you don't specifically match your testimony to what's in the documents, then you could be wearing a pair of handcuffs.

4:36Is it worth it? So Fauci decided to take the PR hit, to look bad in front of the country and say the fifth to every question. But at least he takes the PR hit with his freedom intact. Listen to Republican Senator Josh Hawley questioning Fauci. What color is the carpet in front of you? wearing on the advice of counsel i respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution what color is the carpet in front of you

5:06on the advice of counsel i respectfully decline to answer based upon my rights under the fifth amendment to the constitution let's just get one thing straight you don't have any rights under the fifth amendment because you've been pardoned all he was the attorney general of missouri Shouldn't he know better? Well, the Supreme Court, there's a case that says that you can't have the selective use of the Fifth Amendment. Like, for example, if you say something and then you try to invoke the Fifth in the same subject matter, then you can't do it. You can't pick and choose on the same subject matter.

5:40Now, what does the color of Fauci's tie have with research in a lab? Well, an aggressive prosecutor could say, all right, you had an interpretation of what color your tie is. That shows your state of mind and that opens the door to everything else involving your state of mind. You see where they're going. So his lawyers are good lawyers and they just said, no, just take the fifth on everything. Just talk a little bit about how difficult perjury prosecutions are. Well, really hard. Now, it's easier to prove making a false statement to Congress, slightly easier. I mean you still have to prove that you intentionally lied.

6:18So even if Fauci was brought up on criminal charges for making a false statement, they would never be able to prosecute him because it would likely be based on something he says that is an answer to an ambiguous question like James Comey's answer or it would be something taken out of context like Jack Smith's answer. And so they're never going to convict him. But that's not what it's about. There's an old saying. You can beat the rap but you can't beat the ride. And that's what members of Congress like Rand Paul and Holly, what they are trying to do here. They want to have the visual of Anthony Fauci being let out in handcuffs even though he'll never serve a day behind bars.

6:59This testimony was so heated. And at one point, Rand Paul kicked Fauci's lawyer out of the room. Yeah. Now, I was watching that and the lawyer was told repeatedly not to speak. And the lawyer is not supposed to speak because it's the individual that speaks. The lawyer is supposed to advise. And so I understand why he was kicked out. But it tells you more that there was a round of applause from the gallery. It shows you how political this is. The reason why this is happening is that you have the midterms coming up and the Republican base has been demoralized. You've got the Iran war. It's not going well.

7:39You've got prices up. You've got Epstein still – the ghosts of Epstein floating around. And so this is something that still motivates them. It's Anthony Fauci, who they likened to a devil, someone who is like should be prosecuted head on a pike. And because of Biden's pardons, that was all shut down. But here's a way for Rand Paul to get his licks in because there has been a battle between the two of them for years and for the base to get ginned up. And I was on Twitter looking at some of the tweets from conservatives and they love this. They're the ones who are cheering when the lawyer for Fauci was kicked out of the room.

8:14And they're the ones cheering that Fauci looks bad as a result of his repeated invocations of the Fifth Amendment. Rand Paul concluded the nearly three-hour hearing by saying the committee is planning a vote next week on whether to hold Fauci in contempt of Congress. And what happens is you have the committee vote and then it goes to the full Senate. And then it gets referred to the DOJ, and then the DOJ can or cannot file the charges or seek an indictment. And then ultimately it's up to a judge. But judges are really protective of the Fifth Amendment. If there is the possibility that you could be prosecuted for a crime, you can take the Fifth Amendment.

8:53Now Rand Paul is saying you are pardoned, so you have no right against self-incrimination. But that's only partially true because that only applies to past conduct. You can still be prosecuted for perjury, for making a false statement to Congress. You can still be prosecuted for that even if you were pardoned for everything else. So that's why it, again, is a visual. It's the visual of the Republicans taking action against someone that the base of the Republican Party hates, despises. So, yeah, they'll do the referral. Ultimately, it will never lead to any day in jail for Anthony Fauci. Let's turn now to a committee hearing that is supposed to take place tomorrow, a planned vote to move forward with Todd Blanche's nomination for attorney general.

9:39The settlement fund's just not moving forward. There's no modification. It's just, it never started. No money went from the Treasury to any other account. There's no commissioners. It's not moving forward. At his confirmation hearings, Blanche had testified that the$1.8 billion anti-weaponization fund was dead, but that has not assured Republican Senator John Cornyn. He's raised concerns that the fund could be resurrected without a commitment in writing from the Trump administration that it is dead, especially since President Trump has expressed continued support for the deal. For the nomination to go through the Senate Judiciary Committee, Blanche needs the votes of every Republican senator.

10:23Dave, during his confirmation hearing, Blanche admitted that the settlement agreement can be resurrected, and Cornyn wants the Justice Department to put it in writing that the weaponization fund is dead. He said they know what they need to do, but they simply refuse to do it. Well, Todd Blanche in private admitted to Senator Dick Durbin that the$1.776 billion so-called anti-weaponization fund was a mistake. But it's one thing to say that in private. It's another thing to say it in public. It's one thing to say in public that you are not moving forward with this slush fund. It's another thing to put in writing.

11:07It's one thing to say that you're not going to create this fund, but it's another thing to also leave open the possibility of giving financial settlements to claims made by January Sixers. And he has refused to shut that door. And that's a problem, just like how the DOJ has given hundreds of millions of dollars to the state of Alaska to settle lawsuits there. And that helps Lisa Murkowski. Well, he can do the same thing to please Trump for the January Sixers. There have been a lot of claims filed, and it's up to him how to settle that. Remember, he's given already be a lot of money, General Flynn, they can pay off people who they like and stop payments to people they don't.

11:48So they have that power. And that's something that I would like to see Todd Blanche go further and say, not only will I put in writing that we are not doing this slush fund, but we are also putting in writing that we are not going to reimburse anyone who makes a claim being part of the January 6th insurrection. He will not do that. And I think that's a problem. They can still give January 6th people money through regular process and they don't need the slush fund. That's right. No, that's it. But remember, Trump wanted the slush fund because it was a way to signal that he supports people who supported him.

12:22That's why it was created as$1.776 billion at 1776. Also, it was a substitute for the settlement that they originally wanted, which was to give Trump the money. This was to settle Trump's claims against the IRS. And it's interesting because Trump has a legitimate claim against the IRS. They did leak his information. They also leaked Ken Griffin's information and others. But Ken Griffin and others accepted an apology and no financial settlement. But Trump wanted the money, and when that looked bad because it was self-dealing, they settled on this slush fund for their January 6th and other supporters.

12:58But that, too, looked so bad. So what they could still do, though, is settle lawsuits, and that's where Todd Blanche has not committed one way or another. This is Bloomberg. Social media influencers Andrew and Tristan Tate are accused of rape and sex trafficking in the United Kingdom. They've become among the world's most polarizing Internet personalities with their promotion of wealth, male dominance, and misogyny through their social media empire. The new allegations are the latest in a long-running international legal scandal involving the Tates that has spammed the U.S., Britain and Romania.

13:39Their attorney, Joseph McBride, has slammed the new criminal charges unveiled against them. We think these charges are salacious and defamatory charges. Andrew and Tristan Tate have been accused of the most heinous acts that two men could be accused of. The Tates say they're innocent of the charges and they'll fight their extradition to the UK. They'll remain in jail in Miami until at least an August 13th detention hearing where a judge will determine whether they'll be released on bail as the extradition process plays out. I've been talking to former Palm Beach County State Attorney Dave Ehrenberg.

14:16Dave, so right now the Tates are fighting extradition. Right. So you have the Tate brothers that are detained and awaiting extradition, and they're in solitary confinement. They're in solitary confinement not because they're being punished but because they're high-profile figures because of their own outrageous words that have made them into targets. And they're going to fight it, but it could take one to two years to fight it. Ultimately, though, it goes to the courts and it's a low burden for the government to extradite people because you have a legitimate charge from Great Britain, from the UK, where it's serious felonies.

14:52That's number one. Are they serious crimes? Yes. And is there a probable cause? Yes. Unless they want to say that it's mistaken identity, which is not the case. So they're going to lose in the courts. What they're trying is to get the Trump administration to block it. And after it goes to the courts, then it's up to the Secretary of State, Marco Rubio, to sign off on it. And by all indications, he will. Why is he going to die in a hill for the Tate brothers? I know Marco Rubio. He's a religious guy. I'm sure he finds the Tate brothers' conduct disgusting and repulsive. Rubio told reporters he was in Manila on July 22nd that he didn't expect to intervene in the case for now.

15:27There's no role for us to play at this moment or maybe ever. But there is a role. Well, yeah, he has to sign off on it. They can't get extradited unless the Secretary of State signs off on it, but it's pretty rote. I think there's only been one example since the treaty between the U.S. and the U.K. has been signed on extraditions. There's only one example of someone who has not been extradited over to the U.K., and that was because the person was related to a diplomatic official with potential diplomatic immunity. A situation like this, why? Why wouldn't you extradite them? We're talking about alleged rape and child pornography.

16:02I mean, with the ghost of Jeffrey Epstein flying above, why or below? Why would you try to make this a big issue? I mean, my gosh, if there's anything that unites the parties, you would think it's fighting sex exploitation of children. So why will it take so long then? First, you go to the magistrate, then a judge, and then it goes to the appellate court, then it could go to the Supreme Court. And so it could take a while. It could take a year, maybe even longer. But it's probably in the benefit of the Tate brothers to just accept the extradition. because they're in solitary confinement. Do they want to spend the next year or two in solitary confinement?

16:37Doesn't seem like a victory to me. Well, they're asking for bail while they fight the extradition, and there's going to be a bail hearing on August 13th. Their lawyer said they've been in solitary confinement, but they're still under threat of getting stabbed, jumped, murdered, or whatever it is, in jail as accused sex offenders, but no evidence of specific threats. If you look up the definition of flight risk, you'll see a picture of the Tate brothers. Andrew Tate has all these Bugattis and planes and money and followers around the world. He's got passports for, what, 12 different countries. He brags about that he can go to any country and be immune from justice.

17:21This is your typical flight risk that prosecutors point to and say, do not let them out of jail. And so he's not going anywhere. Now, what's interesting is that his brother, Tristan Tate, has taken a different approach. His tweets about his conditions are actually respectful. He praises the guards. Andrew Tate's the opposite. He can't help being the obnoxious guy that he is. And so it sets up an interesting situation that perhaps just maybe you think that maybe Tristan Tate sees his only way out of prison before he dies is to flip on his brother. Do you think or at least take a different approach?

17:54Maybe cooperate? It seems like Andrew's going to go down with the ship. Does it work anymore to say we'll put an ankle bracelet on you or does that not work anymore? In the movies, they cut them off. I don't know. Yeah, they can cut them off. I mean, he's got access to planes and fast cars and boats and a legion of supporters around the country and so many passports. And after all, he somehow managed to wiggle out of house arrest in Romania because apparently the Trump administration weighed in on their behalf. They're not going to do it this time. So, no, they are a flight risk. They're the ultimate flight risk.

18:29I can't imagine a bigger flight risk. I mean, I know that Diddy tried to get out and they said, you're a flight risk because you're living on a waterfront property in Miami and you've got boats. Yeah, this is times 10 for these guys. So no, they're not going anywhere, which is to me why they should stop fighting extradition and just go back and fight the charges. So now let's turn to someone who's already been convicted and sentenced, Brian Kohlberger. So he pleaded guilty last year to murdering four University of Idaho students. He's serving four consecutive life sentences. That guilty plea did spare him from a possible death penalty.

19:06But he told the New York Times that he's innocent and he's filed a petition to withdraw his guilty plea and go to trial. How difficult is it to withdraw a guilty plea? Almost impossible. Post-sentencing change of pleas almost never happen. Now, you can try to do it before you get sentenced. You can try to say, you know what, I have a change of heart, and it's still hard. But after you've been sentenced, after the judge has already said, okay, are you sure you want to plead guilty and accept the four life prison terms. And are you doing this because you are guilty? Yes. No one's coerced you? No.

19:47You like your attorneys? Yes. For him to now say, I'm not guilty. I've been coerced and I don't like my attorneys. Well, excuse me. You just said the opposite under oath and you can't keep playing with the emotions of the victim's families like this. But that's what he's doing. Guy's a sociopath. The evidence is overwhelming against And that's why he took the plea. He really should have gone to trial so he would be eligible for the death penalty. But here he is, his last throes, a power of leverage, of relevance, where he is trying to remind people who he is. You know, when he was convicted and sent away, one of the family members of the victim said, we will never think of you ever again.

20:26But yet he's insisting that you will. And that's who this person is. Haven't the family's been through enough? So he's going to lose. I don't even think he's going to get a hearing. I think the judge will reject it on the paper and he will be spending the rest of his life in prison, which is still too good for a guy like this. The only solace I have is knowing that he hates prison. That's why another reason why he's doing this. So here's what he said, that his attorneys failed to disclose or review evidence that might have helped his case during plea discussions and that his attorneys insisted that his plea need not be truthful despite petitioners' vehement denial of actual guilt.

21:00And they promised life in prison would come with immediate contact visits, freedom of movement, employment. The standard is to show manifest injustice. Yes, manifest injustice. You've got to show that you are coerced into it. So if he has evidence that he was coerced into taking the plea, OK, show that. You just can't say it. Do you have evidence of that, that you were coerced into doing it or that you had a mental deficiency at the time? Not that the attorneys could have been better about researching every lead out there. Those attorneys did an amazing job for him because he was going to get the death penalty.

21:32This is a pretty conservative state, Idaho. Four innocent college students slaughtered and he was able to avoid the death penalty. he should not be complaining about his attorneys. He should be sending them a gift basket. Great to have you on, as always, Dave. That's Dave Ehrenberg, former Palm Beach County state attorney. And that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember, you can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www.bloomberg.com slash podcast slash law. And remember to tune into the Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at 10 p.m.

22:10Wall Street time. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg.

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