In short
Podcast Notes: Bloomberg Law - Fulton County Raid & Poker, Law and Taxes
Episode Overview In this episode, host June Grasso discusses two major legal issues: the implications of the FBI's recent raid in Fulton County, Georgia, and the trial of renowned Supreme Court litigator Tom Goldstein for tax evasion. Key guests include Rebecca Green, an elections law expert, and Holly Barker, a Bloomberg Law senior reporter.
Key Topics Discussed
- Fulton County Raid and Election Integrity
- FBI Raid: The FBI seized over 700 boxes of ballots, voter rolls, ballot images, and other records from the 2020 presidential election in Fulton County, Georgia.
- Context: Fulton County was pivotal in the aftermath of the 2020 election, facing numerous allegations of voter fraud, particularly from former President Trump.
- Claims of Fraud: Jeff Duncan, former Republican lieutenant governor, emphasized the lack of evidence for fraud, citing multiple audits and recounts that confirmed election results.
- Legal Framework: The seizure is part of a criminal investigation regarding potential voter intimidation and election interference, highlighting significant concerns about voter privacy and federal versus state roles in elections.
- Expert Insight from Rebecca Green
- Ground Zero for Fraud Claims: Green explains how Fulton County became a focal point for allegations of election fraud, particularly due to Trump's claims.
- Historical Context: She notes that federal intervention in elections is constitutionally limited, emphasizing states' authority over election administration.
- Concerns Raised: The seizure of voter rolls raises concerns about federal overreach and potential future implications for election integrity.
- Tom Goldstein's Tax Evasion Trial
- Background: Tom Goldstein, a prominent Supreme Court litigator, was indicted for tax evasion and misusing law firm funds to cover gambling debts, revealing his high-stakes poker lifestyle.
- Public Shock: Goldstein's indictment shocked the legal community due to his previous status as a respected figure.
- Charges:
- Tax evasion, aiding in false tax returns, and willful failure to pay taxes over multiple years.
- Allegations include mischaracterizing personal expenses as business expenses and failing to report gambling income.
- Insights from Holly Barker
- Goldstein's Dual Life: Barker describes Goldstein's rise to fame and his unexpected legal troubles, emphasizing the stark contrast between his public persona and private actions.
- Defense Strategy: Goldstein's defense argues that the government conducted a flawed investigation and that he relied on external accountants for financial management.
- High-Stakes Poker Context: Barker provides insight into Goldstein's poker career, noting he often played with billionaires and had financial backers investing in his games.
- Testimony and Trial Dynamics
- Tobey Maguire's Testimony: Actor Tobey Maguire testified regarding his relationship with Goldstein and a legal fee arrangement related to gambling debts.
- Jury Reactions: Despite Maguire's celebrity status, the jury reportedly treated him like any other witness, maintaining focus on the case's legal merits.
- Challenges for the Prosecution: The prosecution faces the burden of proving Goldstein's intent to commit tax evasion, which is complicated by the complexities of tax law and accounting practices.
Key Takeaways
- The podcast highlights ongoing tensions between federal authority and state rights regarding election integrity.
- The legal proceedings against Tom Goldstein serve as a cautionary tale of how personal conduct can intersect with professional reputation.
- Insights from legal experts underscore the importance of due process in both election law and tax cases, emphasizing the need for clear, credible evidence in legal disputes.
Conclusion This episode of Bloomberg Law explores significant legal issues surrounding election integrity and high-profile criminal trials, providing expert analysis and insights that illuminate the complexities of the law. The discussions reflect broader themes of accountability, governance, and the intersection of personal and professional ethics.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOFBI Raid in Fulton County Overview
1:40 to 3:05
Discusses the FBI raid in Fulton County and its implications.
“This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio.”
Election Fraud Claims and Investigations
3:05 to 4:48
Explores the ongoing claims of election fraud and investigations.
“My guest is Rebecca Green, a professor at William and Mary Law School and director of their election law program.”
The Impact of Voter Roll Seizures
4:48 to 6:47
Examines the implications of federal seizure of voter rolls.
“So the FBI seized hundreds of boxes of ballots, voter rolls, ballot images, and other election records.”
State vs. Federal Roles in Elections
6:47 to 10:15
Clarifies the roles of state and federal government in elections.
“And at one point, Trump asked her in a cabinet meeting whether she had found evidence in burn bags of how corrupt the 2020 election was.”
Illegal Voting Claims and Reality
10:15 to 12:37
Discusses the prevalence of illegal voting by non-citizens.
“Constitution delegates to states power over elections.”
AI and Productivity in Software Development
14:02 to 15:18
Discussion on the necessity of AI in improving software development productivity.
“If anybody has more than 10 % of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind.”
The Shock of Goldstein's Indictment
16:36 to 20:22
Analyzing the public and legal community's response to Goldstein's indictment.
“He co-founded scotusblog.com, which was this groundbreaking online resource on the Supreme Court back in 2002.”
Defense Strategies in Goldstein's Trial
20:22 to 23:04
Insight into the defense strategies being employed in Tom Goldstein's trial.
“So his defense, and to be clear, he hasn't put on his case yet, but it's still the government's case in chief.”
IRS Testimony and Accounting Responsibilities
23:04 to 25:10
Discussion on the IRS testimony and the responsibilities of accountants in Goldstein's case.
“And then finally, for the willful to pay charges, the thrust of this argument is what?”
Tobey Maguire's Role in the Goldstein Case
25:10 to 26:50
Exploration of Tobey Maguire’s involvement and testimony in Goldstein's legal issues.
“So apparently he was pretty good at heads-up poker, not as good at what's called a ring match.”
Show all 11 chapters
The Trial of Tom Goldstein
29:25 to 36:55
Explore the complexities and key testimonies in the Goldstein trial.
“We've been talking about the trial of Tom Goldstein, once a legal superstar at the Supreme Court, who led a double life as a high-stakes poker player with a lavish lifestyle.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00Holly Barker:So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now, a global workforce of 300 ,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94 % of common questions. Not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business.
0:57June Grasso:IBM. The Wise Multicurrency Account is for you. Be smart. Get Wise. Download the Wise app today or visit wise.com. Terms and conditions apply.
1:29June Grasso:Build that thing. Do that, do that, do that with Acrobat.
1:33Rebecca Green:Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat.
1:40June Grasso:This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. Officials in Fulton County, Georgia, are vowing to fight a recent FBI raid where agents seized more than 700 boxes of ballots, voter rolls, ballot images, and other election records from the 2020 presidential election. Jeff Duncan, who was the Republican lieutenant governor at that time, says there were multiple audits, hand counts, and verifications of the election results. We've spent nearly six years debunking every conspiracy theory. There's been not even a single page of proof that there's been any sort of fraud involved. This is another somewhat but predictable act by Donald Trump.
2:24June Grasso:The Justice Department sees the records as part of a criminal investigation using a grand jury subpoena. The Trump administration has been stepping up efforts to obtain sensitive voter information from states, not only names and addresses, but voter birth dates, driver's license information, and partial social security numbers. The Justice Department has sued 24 states and Washington, D.C. for refusing to turn over voter data. And federal judges have started to weigh in, delivering early losses to the Trump administration in lawsuits against state leaders in California and Oregon. My guest is Rebecca Green, a professor at William and Mary Law School and director of their election law program.
3:12June Grasso:Rebecca, will you remind us how Fulton County, Georgia was sort of like ground zero for President Trump's unsubstantiated claims of voter fraud in the 2020 presidential election.
3:26Holly Barker:Yeah, so there were several jurisdictions around the country where the president, then candidate Trump, sort of went hard on the theory that there had been massive fraud. And so he was able to convince lots of people that those elections needed to be investigated carefully. And, you know, that's sort of why those jurisdictions came under scrutiny. And so Fulton County was one of those jurisdictions. And there has really been sort of a relentless push, you know, both after the 2020 election and then continuing to today, as we see. But, you know, your listeners will remember the infamous call that President Trump made to the director of Georgia's elections, Brad Raffensperger, where he asked him to find 11 ,000 votes for him.
4:11Holly Barker:So this has been ongoing, this focus on Fulton County particularly.
4:14June Grasso:I mean, there was a machine count and two recounts that confirmed the results in Fulton County, Georgia. So the due diligence was done.
4:25Holly Barker:Yes. So the focus on Fulton County and other jurisdictions around the country, especially in places like Arizona, resulted in sort of very careful review of all ballots, of voting machines, sort of every aspect of the election. They've been under intense scrutiny for years because of these pressures. And there's been no finding of any issues, particularly no finding of widespread fraud that would have changed the result.
4:52June Grasso:So the FBI seized hundreds of boxes of ballots, voter rolls, ballot images, and other election records. And the search warrant said it was about potential voter intimidation and election interference. I mean, have you ever heard of another case where they seize that kind of evidence? They seize the actual voter rolls?
5:15Holly Barker:Boy, you know, I can't think of an example. That doesn't mean that it hasn't happened. There certainly has been, you know, a lot of criminal investigation, you know, of our elections over the course of U.S. history. But I can't think of an instance where the federal government has seized voting equipment. I could be wrong about that, but nothing springs to mind.
5:34June Grasso:The election interference claims, as you describe, they have already been litigated over and over again.
5:41Holly Barker:Yes, that's correct. So I'm assuming, I mean, I'm not a criminal law expert, but I'm assuming that in order to get a warrant to seize this equipment, there must have been evidence that convinced a judge that there was a crime that hasn't been sort of settled in the courts already.
5:56June Grasso:I believe there'd have to be some kind of finding of probable cause at least. What's the danger with the federal government seizing these voter rolls?
6:06Holly Barker:Well, in the instance of the federal government obtaining this material, you know, there are layers of concern that people have voiced. So there is lots of concern about voter privacy, for example. There's concern about this being sort of a precursor to future efforts to take equipment out of state custody, equipment and ballots out of state custody, you know, in future elections. So there's all kinds of concerns that have been raised about this activity as being sort of more than a run of the mill sort of criminal investigation.
6:39June Grasso:So Tulsi Gabbard, director of national intelligence, was there and she's been in charge of an investigation into election integrity, so-called election integrity. And at one point, Trump asked her in a cabinet meeting whether she had found evidence in burn bags of how corrupt the 2020 election was. And she said, we're finding documents literally tucked away in the back of safes and random offices in these bags and in other areas. It sounds sort of like, you know, Rudy Giuliani's talking about, you know, votes being found in suitcases.
7:15Holly Barker:Yeah, there's been lots of rhetoric. But so far in courts of law where judges have required plaintiffs to bring that evidence forward, there hasn't been any credible evidence so far brought into courts. So you can scream from the rooftop that there's been fraud and you can get on the airwaves and make all the allegations that you want. But ultimately, it's courts of law that have to review that type of evidence.
7:42June Grasso:And the Justice Department is looking to get voter rolls from something like half the states that's in litigation. They say they want the voter rolls to protect the election integrity. I mean, what would be a reason for them wanting the voter rolls from every state?
7:59Holly Barker:Well, I suspect that there is an effort to determine whether there are people on the voter rolls who shouldn't be there and to sort of leverage the power of the federal government to examine that material. But I think it's important to note that federal law requires that states actively vet their voter rolls. There are very sort of careful processes that every state is required to go through to make sure that ineligible voters are not on their voter rolls and to clean them up periodically to make sure that, you know, as people move, as people pass away, that the voter rolls reflect that, you know, to identify double voting, all these kinds of things.
8:37Holly Barker:So states already go through very rigorous procedures to make sure that their voter rolls are as accurate as possible. And I think it's worth saying, you know, obviously, that's a very Herculean task because, you know, Americans move quite frequently. You know, there are constant sort of turnover in terms of who should be and who shouldn't be on the rolls. So it's an ongoing effort, but that's the job of state election administrators, and they take it very seriously.
9:03June Grasso:Explain state versus federal as far as their roles in elections.
9:08Holly Barker:Sure. So Article 1, Section 4 of the United States Constitution grants states the authority to make rules involving the time, place, and manner of elections. So that's a very clear federal constitutional grant of power to the states. There is a next phrase right after that that says that Congress can make rules governing the time, place, or manner of elections also. So there's this sort of way that the federal government can sort of take over elections if it wants. But the grant of power to the federal government is to Congress, not to the executive. And so the feeling is that unless Congress acts to take the power away from states to manage their voter rolls, that the executive branch has no role in doing so.
9:57June Grasso:Yesterday, President Trump suggested on a conservative podcast that Republican state officials should take over and nationalize elections in 15 states to protect the party from being voted out of office. That would violate the Constitution, wouldn't it?
10:15Holly Barker:Yes. So as I just described, the U.S. Constitution delegates to states power over elections. So there would be no ability for a political party or sort of by executive command for the federal takeover of elections. So that's sort of a first point. And I think a second point that's really important to make here is to underscore that there are tons of protections within state law that ensure that partisans, that is Republicans and Democrats, members of the two major parties, are present and able to sort of weigh in and hold accountable elections at every level. So this is from boards of elections that are populated with Republicans and Democrats, all the way down to partisan poll observers, where Republicans and Democrats sort of are authorized to watch every aspect of elections from authorizing voting machines right up until you're counting the ballots.
11:12Holly Barker:And so there already is a huge amount of what I call adversarial oversight of the election process to make sure that one party is not able to sort of do anything fraudulent or in secret without the other party sort of being privy and present. So those kinds of adversarial protections are very much part of our election process and should provide some comfort for anyone who's concerned about either Republicans or Democrats sort of taking over. In other words, elections are bipartisan efforts at every level.
11:45June Grasso:And he is repeating the claim that immigrants are voting illegally. Is that prevalent? Does it happen?
11:53Holly Barker:Oh, it certainly happens in the sense that when I've seen sort of reports on this, it's usually somebody who mistakenly believes that they are allowed to vote. So, for example, they get a driver's license and they're asked, do you want to register to vote? They don't understand what that means. They mistakenly get put on the rolls, this kind of thing. But I think, you know, common sense dictates the reality that if you are in this country illegally, the last thing you want to do is, you know, do something illegal, that is register to vote and sort of push yourself out there. I mean, people who in this country who are here illegally, you know, are not, I think it's safe to say, you know, coming out in droves to register themselves with state governments.
12:36Holly Barker:So I think, you know, the idea that there are massive numbers of non-citizens voting in our elections sort of defies credulity for that reason.
12:45June Grasso:Thanks so much for an interesting conversation, Rebecca. That's Professor Rebecca Green of William & Mary Law School. Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, Tom Goldstein, once a legal superstar, is on trial for tax evasion. And his double life as a high-stakes poker player is at the heart of the charges. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg. This message is brought to you by Apple Card. Apple Card members can earn unlimited daily cash back on everyday purchases wherever they shop. This means you could be earning daily cash on just about anything, like a slice of pizza from your local pizza place or a latte from the corner coffee shop.
13:27June Grasso:Apply for Apple Card in the Wallet app to see your credit limit offer in minutes. Subject to credit approval, Apple Card issued by Goldman Sachs Bank USA, Salt Lake City Branch. terms and more at applecard.com. Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast Smart Talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO, Arvind Krishna, and I asked him, how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business? My one advice to them, pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example? If anybody has more than 10 % of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind.
14:15June Grasso:If anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30 % more productive today, with the goal of being 70 % more productive. Yeah. Wow. So we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say, you can leverage what we did. We are happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process, because the biggest change is not technology. It's getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things. To listen to the full conversation, visit ibm.com slash smarttalks.
15:17June Grasso:We'll see you next time. with Acrobat. Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat. Tom Goldstein was known as a superstar lawyer. In fact, a superstar Supreme Court litigator who argued 45 cases before the high court. He also co-founded the most prominent blog covering the court, appropriately called SCOTUS blog. That's why it came as a shock to the legal establishment when Goldstein was indicted last January for scheming to evade taxes and using millions of dollars from his law firm to cover gambling debts. According to the indictment, Goldstein was living a double life with a side career as a high-stakes poker player, very high stakes, winning more than$50 million in a series of poker matches in 2016 to fund a lavish lifestyle.
16:17June Grasso:Now Goldstein is putting his cards on the table in court, where again, the stakes are very high. He's facing prison time if convicted. My guest is Holly Barker, a senior reporter for Bloomberg Law who's covering the Goldstein trial. So Holly, tell us about Tom Goldstein.
16:35Rebecca Green:So Tom Goldstein, I think is best described as a legal nerd celebrity. He co-founded scotusblog.com, which was this groundbreaking online resource on the Supreme Court back in 2002. It was a big deal, particularly at the time, because the Supreme Court's website, if it had one, was in its nascency, and it just wasn't terribly accessible. He also cultivated a career as a really high-profile Supreme Court advocate. He argued dozens of cases before the high court. And what makes that even more important is that, unlike many of those who can make the same claim, he didn't go to an elite law school or clerk for a justice.
17:10Rebecca Green:He instead hustled his way into the career by identifying circuit splits and calling parties to offer his representation. So he's sort of this unlikely Supreme Court star and is very well known in legal circles, especially in Washington, D.C.
17:27June Grasso:And talking about unlikely, tell us about the reaction when he was indicted.
17:32Rebecca Green:People were shocked. He was indicted in January 2025, and he was initially facing 22 counts, mostly tax charges. The government moved to dismiss six of them on the eve of trial. So now he's facing one count of tax evasion for 2016, eight counts of aiding and assisting in the preparation of false tax returns, and that's for 2017 to 2021, Four counts of willful failure to pay taxes for 2017, 2019, 2020, and 2021. And three counts of making a false statement on a loan application. So for the tax evasion count, the government's advancing eight series of alleged quote-unquote acts of evasion. They include using his law firm funds to pay personal gambling debt, so mischaracterizing personal expenses as business expenses, providing false and incomplete information to his accounting firm, making false and misleading statements to an IRS revenue officer, transferring at least$950 ,000 in personal funds to his firm's trust account to shield the funds from IRS collection, allegedly, and to use foreign individuals in bank accounts to receive income.
18:41Rebecca Green:For the fraudulent tax return charges, those are based on particular line items on his tax returns that prosecutors are fair or false, like gross receipts, other income, and so forth. And the willful failure to pay counts are based on his alleged failure to pay his taxes on the date that they were due. So he filed a tax return, got an extension, eventually paid the taxes with penalties and interest. But the government's theory is that he had the money available to pay the taxes when they were due, but instead elected to fund this ultra high stakes gambling and ultra luxury lifestyle. And I think that's sort of where the real shock in the public came was sort of, you know, there had been some media coverage of Goldstein's gambling in the past.
Read the full transcript
19:23Rebecca Green:People were sort of aware of it, but I don't think that the public sort of had a sense of how serious of a gambler he was or that he was playing multi-million dollar hands. You know, there were also allegations that his defense team was able to get excluded about paramours, women he was having relationships with, that he allegedly had on the firm's payroll, but all of that got tossed. You know, I think it was shocking to see such a high profile sort of legal hero be accused of such serious crimes. Again, these are allegations. Right. But it's quite a fall from grace even to be indicted on charges like that.
20:01Rebecca Green:So people were shocked.
20:02June Grasso:The amount of money on the table in these poker games is sort of astonishing. And the people that he was playing with, high rollers and movie stars like Tobey Maguire, very far from the legal world.
20:16Rebecca Green:It's mind boggling. He really was sort of living a parallel life.
20:21June Grasso:During the opening statements, the prosecution and defense painted two very different pictures, basically two stories of what the case is about.
21:00Rebecca Green:That's right. So his defense, and to be clear, he hasn't put on his case yet, but it's still the government's case in chief. Still, he teed up his defenses at opening and has managed to tease some of it out in cross-examination. So the themes and the defenses include, one, a botched and incomplete government investigation. So he claims this whole investigation was driven by prosecutors and agents who were afflicted by tunnel vision. They sort of decided he was guilty and were only hunting for facts and evidence that substantiated that view. The government keeps claiming that he failed to report significant gambling winnings.
21:37Rebecca Green:But the defense has shown through cross-examination that he didn't always keep what he won and was often playing with other people's money. You know, Tom Goldstein is not a billionaire. He was playing billionaires. In order to do that, he often had financial backers like investors who had stakes in the game. So he may have won$50 million playing heads-up poker, but that doesn't mean he took home$50 million. And the government has a picture and they stipulated what some of those gambling wins and losses were, but they've done a pretty good job of suggesting that the government just doesn't have a complete picture.
22:16Rebecca Green:And in mischaracterized transactions and allegedly false entries on tax returns, He basically claims that he was relying on his firm managers and the expertise of outside accountants and tax preparers. They weren't asking the right questions. They were making assumptions that they shouldn't have and so forth. He's also been playing up the complexity of the tax laws and reporting gambling income in particular and challenging the element of willfulness, which is a heightened intent standard that's in play for tax charges. So, you know, while the prosecution has made a lot of gold team smarts in status as an elite lawyer, again, the defense has done a good job of eliciting testimony, sort of supporting his claim and his theme that he just wasn't teamed into the firm finances.
22:56Rebecca Green:Like, yes, he's very detailed, oriented when it came to the process of law, but much less so in management of it. And then finally, for the willful to pay charges, the thrust of this argument is what? Like, I filed bank returns. I got the necessary extensions. I entered into a payment plan. And like, how was I supposed to know I can go to jail for this? The idea is, you know, lots of people don't pay their taxes on time and they don't get indicted for it, you know, instead of handled with interest and penalties.
23:22June Grasso:That's an argument that I think would appeal to a lot of people, especially those who may have filed late once or twice. And tell us about the IRS agent who had audited Goldstein in 2012, who testified that he told Goldstein's then accountant and power of attorney that he needed to keep better records of his gambling wins and losses.
23:46Rebecca Green:That's right. They've had a couple of IRS agents, revenue agents, testify. And one of them testified about an audit that predates all of this. And, you know, at the end of that audit, which, by the way, he wound up getting a refund. So the IRS paid him money at the end of the audit. But he had a proxy dealing with the IRS directly. But the IRS agent said that he told his proxy, his accountant, his power of attorney, that is, that he needed to keep more robust gambling records. He needed to keep a more complete ledger, was basically the rest of it. But the defense made the point. The IRS agent didn't say that directly to Goldstein.
24:23And when the accountant testified, he's like, I'm assuming that I relayed that to Goldstein,
24:28Rebecca Green:but he doesn't have a specific memory of it. He's just assuming he did because that's what he did as a matter of course. The other thing that he said was basically that Goldstein terminated him at the end of that audit and it was basically Goldstein wasn't happy that he'd wound up in an audit and was upset with him, the accountant, for not having asked more follow-up questions because Goldstein had mentioned gambling to him. So that sort of helped his case or his argument that looked like I was relying on outside experts.
25:00June Grasso:If the theory is that he wasn't a great poker player, then why were people investing in his poker playing?
25:09Rebecca Green:Good question. So apparently he was pretty good at heads-up poker, not as good at what's called a ring match. So the heads-up game was two players, just one-on-one, a ring game is more than two. I guess he was better at one than the other and good enough that people, at least in the heads-up games, were willing to invest in him. And he won a lot. He wound up, it looks like, perhaps losing more often than years after 2016. But 2016 was definitely a big year for him. Evidence at trial shows that he won around$26 million. I think it was$26.4 million from Alex Bores. He's a billionaire. So he was good enough.
25:50Rebecca Green:He was described by professional poker players as I think the word aggressive came up more than once, like multiple people described him as aggressive and another another witness described him as sort of a crazy man and you know i guess maybe that works sometimes and sometimes it doesn't spider-man star toby mcguire took the stand tell us how he fit in here so toby mcguire hired goldstein to help him recover part of a very significant gambling bet from Andy Beal, who is a Texas billionaire. Toby had played him, won a bunch of money. Mr. Beal didn't want to pay up. So Maguire hires Goldstein to help him get his money back.
26:38Rebecca Green:And ultimately, Goldstein gets a successful result for him. And, you know, Beal pays off everything that he owes. And then Goldstein gets a$500 ,000 fee.
26:50June Grasso:Hold that thought, Holly. Coming up next on the Bloomberg Law Show, I'll continue this conversation with Holly Barker. We'll find out more about Tobey Maguire's testimony and the jury's reaction to having a movie star in the courtroom. Hello, hello. I'm Malcolm Gladwell, host of the podcast Smart Talks with IBM. I recently sat down with IBM's chairman and CEO, Arvind Krishna. And I asked him, how can companies use AI to its fullest potential to create smarter business? My one advice to them, pick areas you can scale. Don't pick the shiny little toys on the side. For example? If anybody has more than 10 % of what they had for customer service 10 years ago, they're already five years behind.
27:41June Grasso:If anybody is not using AI to make their developers who write software 30 % more productive today with the goal of being 70 % more productive.
27:52Rebecca Green:Yeah.
27:53June Grasso:So we are not asking our clients to be the first experiment on it. We say, you can leverage what we did. We're happy to bring out all our learnings, including what needs to change in the process, because the biggest change is not technology. It's getting people to accept that there's a different way to do things. To listen to the full conversation, visit ibm.com slash smarttalks.
28:27Holly Barker:You've got your docs, your plans, your specs, and then invite the crew to build what's next.
28:32Rebecca Green:They talk off the teamwork.
28:33Holly Barker:You can update it, render. They think that this design could be a contender. But when somebody wonders, what's the next steps?
28:40Rebecca Green:AI helps you finish the rest. Bolts are tight. Now your plan's refined.
28:45June Grasso:Run a smoother business when you're all aligned. Do that with Acrobat. Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat.
28:56June Grasso:With Bali from iShares, you get access to both monthly income and growth potential in one simple ETF. It's the best of both worlds. Discover Bali, iShares large cap premium income active ETF. iShares, the market is yours. Visit www.iShares.com to view perspectives for investment objectives, risks, fees, expenses, and other information that you should read and consider carefully before investing. Risks include principal loss in the use of derivatives, which could increase risks and volatility. Monthly income is not guaranteed. prepared by BlackRock Investments, LLC. We've been talking about the trial of Tom Goldstein, once a legal superstar at the Supreme Court, who led a double life as a high-stakes poker player with a lavish lifestyle.
29:37June Grasso:The government alleges that Goldstein deliberately failed to tell his accountants about$26 million in poker winnings and repeatedly opted not to pay his taxes on time. While the defense says the evidence will show that Goldstein did tell his accountants about the winnings and that the lifestyle evidence is just a distraction. The trial is offering a colorful glimpse into the world of ultra-high-stakes poker. Spider-Man star Tobey Maguire testified knowing Goldstein from poker circles. Watching all the testimony is Holly Barker, Bloomberg Law senior reporter. Holly, tell us about Tobey Maguire's testimony.
30:18Rebecca Green:So, Toby McFlyer was called to testify in connection with a legal fee that he was owed to Goldstein, but that Goldstein asked him to instead wire to a real estate model named Bob Sassai. Goldstein had played Bob Safai and lost a significant amount of money and actually had a payment plan. And he had McGuire direct his$500 ,000 fee to Safai in order to satisfy part of that poker debt. And the idea was that that income should have been reported as income to Goldstein's law firm. But by having McGuire send this directly to a poker buddy he had money to, he sort of avoided having to report it as income.
31:06Rebecca Green:And that was the gist of it. And the matter that Goldstein was representing him in, and McGuire and Goldstein had met one another in poker circles. and McGuire hired Goldstein because he wanted to collect a$7.8 billion gambling debt from Texas billionaire Andy Deal and Goldstein did it and was successful in collecting that.
31:26June Grasso:And was the jury sort of starstruck when McGuire testified?
31:31Rebecca Green:Not at all or at least if they were they didn't show it. They treated him just like they treated every other witness with the same level of engagement same expressions on their face. It wasn't quite as exciting as I think people may have expected it would be. You know, he wasn't on the stand for very long. His testimony was fairly clean. You know, he looked at ease. He was pretty smiley. I think a lot of witnesses when they get on the stand tend to do that if they get a little bit nervous.
31:59June Grasso:He is or was a huge poker player, right? Millions and millions and millions of dollars.
32:05Rebecca Green:When he left that courtroom, I was left with the impression that he might make more money gambling than he makes playing Spider-Man.
32:13June Grasso:So he's still gambling.
32:14Rebecca Green:Sounds like it.
32:15June Grasso:Tell us about this bag of cash that prosecutors wanted to introduce, but the judge would not let them.
32:23Rebecca Green:Yeah, the allegation is in the indictment, and there's been lots of testimony about it. Goldstein brought close to a million dollars in cash when he was returning from a trip from Asia. And he was going through Dulles International Airport, and prosecutors claim that when he was talking to the agent, he said, oh, the money was gambling. And this is to a Customs and Border Patrol agent. But then when he talked to an IRS agent later, he said it was a loan. But then when he was talking to a firm manager, he said it was legal fees. So they're basically saying that this was income that he didn't properly characterize.
33:04Rebecca Green:and they had hoped this wasn't before the jury this was a discussion outside of the presence of the jury but they wanted to bring a representative bag of cash in during the Customs and Border Patrol agent's testimony and the judge just said we don't see what the probative value of that is, it's not even the same bag of cash it's not even the same bag I think it's pretty clear that the the prosecution wanted it for effect, but it did not get it.
33:35June Grasso:And how do you even bring that much money through customs? Apparently it's a thing.
33:41Rebecca Green:They have cash counters and you spend a little time and the whole thing.
33:45June Grasso:Really? I mean, how is the prosecution's case going? It seems like the defense has been able to make some of their points through cross-examination.
33:54Rebecca Green:That's a really good question. I'm still, frankly, trying to digest the case in chief. The prosecution has a goal of resting on Thursday. I think it's much more likely that their case in chief goes into Friday. They've had 23 witnesses to date. You know, we don't have a full sense of who the remaining witnesses are, but we know at least two of them are going to be two of the outside accountants. And I think their testimony is going to be a very big deal because they're going to be able to speak sort of directly to what their interactions with Goldstein were sort of around tax preparation. But to answer your question, the jurors, I think, are going to have a really difficult time parsing all of this.
34:33Rebecca Green:And I think it's less about the fact of the transaction, like, you know, did these transactions occur? Were they mischaracterized? That sort of thing. And more about what was in Goldstein's mind. And that is really what the jurors are going to have to contend with. And I do think that the prosecution has done a very good job of, you know, teasing out spaces for doubt wherever they are. I think the government spent a lot of time investigating this case, but I think the defense is really going to hold them to their burden.
35:06June Grasso:They have to show that he had intent. Yes.
35:09Rebecca Green:So there are mortgage fraud charges. Those are a little more straightforward, but the tax charges require a heightened intent standard that the government has to prove that he intentionally violated a known legal duty. So mistaken negligence is not enough to carry the day on tax charges. So if the defense can plant enough of a seed of doubt about whether or not Goldstein intended to screw this stuff up, You know, one of the things the defense said in their opening was, this is a handful of mischaracterized transactions in a sea of transactions over, you know, many years. And to sort of cherry pick those and conclude that he was up to no good as a reach.
35:53Rebecca Green:That's sort of another theme of their defense. You know, I don't think the prosecutors have this in the back, you know, notwithstanding a speaking indictment. So we'll see.
36:02June Grasso:Finally, I mean, is there any hint as to whether Goldstein might take the stand?
36:07Rebecca Green:I honestly have no idea.
36:08June Grasso:I mean, obviously he's well-spoken, but cross-examination is hard for everyone.
36:14Rebecca Green:Yeah, you know, I'm sure part of him is dying too. I would imagine a lot of criminal defendants want to be heard, but it's that risk of cross-examination that keeps them from doing it. I'm sure that the jurors would like to hear from him. I think in these cases, these cases that turn so heavily on what was in a defendant's mind, I think jurors are always hungry to hear from them. But we'll see.
36:34June Grasso:Well, you know what they say when the defendant takes the stand, then everything becomes about the defendant's testimony and whether the jury believes him or her. So high stakes there as well. Thanks so much, Holly. That's Bloomberg Law senior reporter Holly Barker. And that's it for this edition of the Bloomberg Law Show. Remember, you can always get the latest legal news on our Bloomberg Law podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and at www.bloomberg.com slash podcast slash law. And remember to tune into the Bloomberg Law Show every weeknight at 10 p.m. Wall Street time. I'm June Grosso, and you're listening to Bloomberg.
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From the publisher
Elections law expert Rebecca Green, a professor at William & Mary Law School, discusses the implications of the FBI seizing the voter rolls of Fulton County, Georgia. Holly Barker, Bloomberg Law senior reporter, discusses the trial of Tom Goldstein, a well-known Supreme Court litigator. June Grasso hosts.
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