ICE Agent Shooting of Minneapolis Woman

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1:00You need to make a huge presentation in an hour. Adobe Acrobat uses AI to take all your documents and generate a presentation with a single click. Build slides quickly and streamline the process. Need a last-minute pitch deck? Do that with Acrobat. Need to level up your presentation design? Do that with Acrobat. You have 30-plus documents that need to be simplified into a proposal. Do that. Do that. Do that with Acrobat. Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat. This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. ICE! MURDERS! ICE! MURDERS! ICE! MURDERS! Tensions are high in Minneapolis after 37-year-old Renee Nickelgood was shot and killed by an ICE agent during the Trump administration's latest and largest immigration crackdown.

2:00Videos taken by bystanders with different vantage points show an officer approaching an SUV stopped across the middle of the road, demanding the driver open the door and grabbing the handle. The Honda Pilot begins to move forward and a different ICE officer, standing near the front of the vehicle, pulls his weapon and immediately fires at least two shots into the SUV at close range, jumping back as it moves toward him. But there are dueling interpretations of the incident. DHS Secretary Christine Noem called it an act of domestic terrorism and concluded that the ICE agent was acting in self-defense.

2:42This vehicle was used to hit this officer. It was used as a weapon, and the officer feels as though his life was in jeopardy. It was used to perpetuate a violent act that this officer took action to protect himself and to protect his fellow law enforcement officers. But Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Fry says the video tells a different story. I myself saw a video of the shots being fired as the car was driving away. what I can tell you is the narrative that this was just done in self-defense is a garbage narrative. That is not true. It has no truth. Joining me is former Manhattan prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Paul Callen, who's of counsel at Edelman & Edelman.

3:35Paul, let's start with the very basic question of can this officer be prosecuted? Vice President J.D. Vance, who's an attorney, says the officer is protected by absolute immunity. Well, there's no such thing as absolute immunity for federal law enforcement officers. They can be prosecuted when they have used excessive force that violate federal rules and regulations with respect to the use of deadly physical force. So he's dead wrong about that. Now, on the issue of federal immunity, that's a more complex question, but I will tell you that there have been numerous cases through the years of federal law enforcement authorities being prosecuted on a state level for the use of excessive force.

4:24The most famous one was the Ruby Ridge case, which happened a while back. But in that case, there was a federal sniper who was assigned to try to take down the bad guys in the Ruby Ridge case. And the claim was that he used excessive force and killed somebody. And he was prosecuted in a state court. And it was upheld by the federal Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals. Now, that case was ultimately dismissed in the end, but not on federal immunity grounds. So federal authorities, if they misuse their right to use excessive force, they can be prosecuted, just like any human being can be prosecuted. Are there separate rules for police and federal officers when lethal force is used against someone in a moving vehicle?

5:14Well, yes, in the sense that some states, New York's a good example. In 1972, New York enacted a rule that police officers were not to fire at moving vehicles for two reasons. Number one, bystanders could be hit by the gunfire. And number two, if they succeeded in killing the driver, the car could crash into somebody else and kill them. So it's a very, very dangerous thing to do. So that's been banned in New York, at least since 1972. Now, other states have different rules on this. The federal government, basically, according to the Department of Justice manual, has a rule that they can only use what is considered to be deadly force when there's an imminent threat that the person they're shooting at would use deadly force against federal law enforcement agents or others.

6:09And that's how the feds would look at this case and judge it if they were willing to step back and judge it objectively, which that's a whole other subject. There's no objectivity being brought to this investigation by federal authorities from what I've been able to see. Christy Noem, the Department of Homeland Security director, has already for the past two days said that the woman who was killed here was aiming at the officer and the officer was acting in self-defense and according to his training. And then you have state authorities saying, no, that's not the case. In past situations, has the federal government come out so strongly in presenting the narrative and the defense of the officer before there's even an investigation?

6:57No, they have not. And as a matter of fact, Kristi Noem's statements are really shockingly inappropriate. Normally, federal authorities will make no statement. And this case would be looked at by the U.S. Attorney's Office that has jurisdiction. And there might be a presentation to a federal grand jury if it was a close call or if it was clearly misconduct, unlawful activity by the law enforcement agent. But they usually make no comment, no public comment, because who's going to believe that an investigation has been fair and impartial if all of the investigators have declared their opinion on it before the investigation even begins?

7:38So this is really improper and highly unprofessional behavior by Kristi Noem. And by the way, a person who said that is of all people, Homan, who is called the border czar, who makes a lot of television appearances defending everything that the Trump administration is doing. And Thomas Homan has said that it's completely inappropriate for law enforcement authorities to be making definitive statements about whether this was a shooting that could be justified or not. Minnesota investigators say the federal government is blocking them from accessing the evidence in the investigation and the FBI won't work with them on the probe.

8:22So where does that leave the investigation in the hands of the federal government that's already made a conclusion? Yes, I think it will leave at least the initial investigation with the federal government entirely. Now, I have to say, June, that in situations that I've seen as a state prosecutor, and I prosecuted murder cases on a state level, the feds will come in on cases that have federal implications and pull the case from state authorities and take the evidence to begin with. But in the end, when they complete their investigation, the state is then free to pursue the case. And there have been cases where the feds have decided not to proceed with charges and state authorities have said, no, this was a case of unjustifiable force and someone was killed who didn't deserve to die and state authorities proceed.

9:14That happens all the time. But it's not unusual for the feds to, you know, take all the evidence and say, we're the only ones are going to look at it initially. So Minnesota will get their their shot at this case if the feds don't decide to proceed against the ICE officer involved. Here you have videos and videos taken from various angles. One would think that if there is a video, it would be pretty clear what happened, but is it? People seem to have different interpretations. Well, yes. And this video in particular is one where people are disagreeing because if this 37-year-old mother of three was intending to kill an ICE officer by running him over, would she have turned the wheels of her car to go to the right and avoid hitting the officer?

10:08That's something I'd be looking at if I were on the grand jury evaluating this case. The other thing that's very troublesome about the video from my standpoint is even if the vehicle was initially going toward the ICE officer, it looked from the video like all he had to do was step two feet to the right, to his right, and he would have been out of danger. She had turned the wheels away from him as it was. So it doesn't look to me like there was any imminent threat to him at all when he fired that deadly shot through the windshield of the car. At trial, if this goes to trial, the jury is going to be shown videos from different angles.

10:50It'll be slowed down and stopped. And there'll be different interpretations from each side about what happened. Well, and I think in front of juries, there's always great sympathy for the law enforcement officials involved in these situations. because they're making a snap decision about whether it's appropriate to fire a shot at someone who is presumably committing a crime. So they're hesitant about convicting a law enforcement officer under these circumstances. But here, first of all, if you get a Minnesota jury, a Minneapolis jury, They don't seem to be people who are going to be very sympathetic to these 2 ,000 federal officers who have invaded Minneapolis now.

11:37There doesn't seem to be a lot of sympathy for the federal government in Minnesota. Now, remember, that's going to be the jury in this case if it's brought in federal court or in state court. Paul, the other thing I noticed while watching the video over and over again is that the ICE officers are very aggressive. As they're approaching the car, they were already cursing. Also, they're all masked up so that you can barely see their faces. So it doesn't present what I'd call the typical officer situation. It's completely atypical, June. I mean, we're used to seeing police officers dressed in a normal police uniform, which displays their badge number.

12:18And they don't have their faces covered like they're some kind of a terrorist operating in the Middle East, which when you see these ice raids, it's a scene that's been never seen before in the United States with officers with their faces covered, raiding homes and firing gunshots into vehicles. It's a very, very strange and terrifying thing, I think, for American citizens to see. So that's what this woman was confronted with when they were trying to pull her out of her car. And I don't know what her side of the story will be presented as. Obviously, she's not here to testify about it, but whether she deliberately came and was deliberately trying to obstruct this investigation or not.

13:03We don't know all of the facts at this point in time. But in the end, it comes down to one thing. Did this officer have an imminent threat of death being presented because this van was going in his direction? And was that the only reasonable thing that he could do under the circumstances, fire a shot through the window at this woman? Or could he have merely stepped out of the way and avoided being killed himself? So that's what a jury will look at eventually. Let's suppose that she was trying to avoid arrest and trying to escape from arrest. Does it change the situation at all or the analysis of what the ICE officer did in shooting?

13:46Well, on a state and federal level, there is a doctrine called the fleeing felon doctrine, which is if a felon who has committed a violent crime or is trying to commit a violent crime of some sort is fleeing the scene, generally deadly physical force can be used in that person's apprehension. But that doctrine has been narrowed down by the courts through the years in recent years. And it's gotten to the point where in most states, you're not allowed to use that level of force just because a felon is fleeing the scene. You have to show that that felon actively presents a threat, an imminent threat of death or serious injury to other people.

14:29And that applied to this fact pattern, you would have to say, did she present an imminent threat of death or injury to members of the public or to this ICE officer as she was driving her car away from the scene? And from the video I've seen, I don't think it makes out that standard. But as we discussed earlier, there will be many angles of this video, maybe that we haven't seen yet. There'll be other information that we don't know about yet, which is why it's totally wrong for Kristi Noem and the vice president and everybody else to have reached a definitive opinion about guilt or innocence of this ICE officer.

15:13We've got to wait until all the evidence is in before we can make a determination about that. In any event, I mean, will her family be able to sue in civil court for damages? Well, they will be able to sue. There's no question about that. But I have to say that those cases are very, very difficult cases to win in federal court. The federal judges are very sympathetic to federal law enforcement authorities. And there are a number of rules in place in federal law granting tremendous protection to federal law enforcement authorities. As a matter of fact, if they violate the Constitution in the performance of their duties as law enforcement officers, that's not even enough to hold them liable.

15:58You have to prove that not only do they violate the Constitution, but that other officers wouldn't have known about the constitutional protection involved, and that only then maybe you would have a case for liability and money damages in federal court. Most of these cases are thrown out and people recover no money in federal court. So they're very, very difficult cases to win. It does sound like a really high bar. It's been great talking to you again, Paul. Thanks so much for joining me. That's former Manhattan prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Paul Callen.

16:58Do that. Do that. Do that with Acrobat. Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat. Support for the show comes from Public. Lately, it feels like there are two types of investing platforms. Some are traditional brokerages that haven't changed much in decades, and others feel less like investing and more like a game. Public is positioned differently. It's an investing platform for people who are serious about building their wealth. On Public, you can build a portfolio of stocks, options, bonds, crypto without all the bugs or the confetti. Retirement accounts, yep. High yield cash, yes again.

17:33They even have direct indexing. Public has modern design, powerful tools, and customer support that actually helps. Go to public.com slash market and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash market. And paid for by Public Holdings. Brokered services by Public Investing, member FINRA SIPC. advisory services by public advisors, SEC registered advisor, crypto services by zero hash. All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures at public.com slash disclosures. Being a small business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own.

18:11That's why they make business growth their priority. The Chase team takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now, and where you want to go. Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind so you can bring your ideas to life. From banking to payment acceptance to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools. Looking for tips and advice? Their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive. See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for Business.

18:45Learn more at chase.com slash business. Chase for Business. Make more of what's yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase Bank N.A. Member FDIC. Copyright 2026. JPMorgan Chase and Company. Vice President J.D. Vance called the Minneapolis woman who was shot to death by an ICE agent a deranged member of a large left-wing protest network without any evidence. And Vance declared with certainty that the mother of three tried to ram the officer with her SUV and that the officer acted in self-defense by opening fire on her. What you see is what you get in this case.

19:30You have a woman who is trying to obstruct a legitimate law enforcement operation. Nobody debates that. You have a woman who aimed her car at a law enforcement officer and pressed on the accelerator. Nobody debates that. I can believe that her death is a tragedy while also recognizing that it's a tragedy of her own making. But eyewitness accounts, video of the incident captured by protesters and city officials, dispute those claims by Vance. And Minnesota Governor Tim Wall says he's skeptical that the federal investigation into the shooting will be fair since the FBI has barred the state's independent investigative body from seeing the evidence or participating in the investigation.

20:15From the president to the vice president to Kristi Noem have stood and told you things that are verifiably false, verifiably inaccurate. They have determined the character of a 37-year-old mom that they didn't even know, don't know. And John Sandweg, the former acting ICE director under President Obama, says the videos raise troubling questions about the officers' actions. I think it's been irresponsible, the department's position on this. I don't know why the secretary and department leadership rushed out with conclusions that this was a justifiable shooting. I think that it, you know, especially when you look at these videos, and I think if the regular public looks at this, as we've seen, the regular public has serious concerns with it.

21:01Joining me now to look at the broader implications of this shooting is immigration law expert Leon Fresco, a partner at Holland and Knight. Leon, the shooting of the Minneapolis woman was not an isolated incident. ICE officers have fired on at least nine other people in similar circumstances who were in their vehicles in the last year of these stepped up immigration actions. And yet the administration and the Department of Homeland Security are doubling down today. I want to be careful saying too much here because I think it's a lot of people are engaging in a lot of commentary without really getting to the actual facts of everything that led to this.

21:44And quite frankly, there are a lot of facts of a lot of different situations that all culminated in what happened in Minnesota, which is if you're looking at this from one side of the perspective, You have a lot of foreign nationals in Minnesota being investigated for various fraud allegations against the taxpayers of both Minnesota and of the United States. And so the idea was that there needed to be a surge of resources to engage in that fraud. Then you could say a counter argument. Well, but a lot of the people that were there doing this kind of law enforcement work for the Department of Homeland Security ended up arresting people who were not involved in any of those operations.

22:29And they're just saying they were picking up people who were just part of the normal immigration and customs enforcement menu of people that they would normally pick up who are undocumented and that weren't involved in these either daycare or other types of fraud actions that people are interested in in the news and that are investigating. Then on the other side, you would say, meantime, there are efforts in big cities to stifle the activities of ICE, whether they be the implementation of sanctuary cities or individual protesters taking matters into their own hands. And on the other side, you could say there's agents from the federal government engaging in law enforcement operations that aren't the traditional detention, removal, and otherwise immigration prosecutions that have to do with removing someone from the United States.

23:23When they start engaging in actions that would normally be conducted by local police in terms of traffic or other things of this nature, then you have that issue. So all of these things come into play in the culmination of this one event where you have surges of thousands of agents in Minnesota with people who are opposed to that, with all of the heightened rhetoric on all of the sides of this. This is something we've talked about in the past, about perhaps a need for more solemnity in the manner in which immigration law enforcement is occurring. So there isn't this belief that the immigration law enforcement is meant to be overtly, purposefully hostile, but rather it's being done out of a solemn obligation to make sure that the immigration code has a meaning.

24:12I think it would be a very helpful change in tone for the immigration enforcement people to say, look, we have an 800-page book called the Immigration and Nationality Act, and 400 pages are all the laws about how you get here legally, and 400 pages are the laws about what happens if you break the law. and what's the point of having those first 400 pages that tell you that you have to do xyz things in order to get in the country if we don't enforce the second 400 pages because then there's no law just come in for whatever reason you want and do anything you want while you're here so the point is there are good arguments to make but they need to be made perhaps in a more solemn manner.

24:54And then at the same token, as people intend to obstruct or otherwise stifle immigration enforcement, they then have less of a justification for doing so. And their actions can be more targeted towards saying, look how irrational these people are that don't want us to enforce immigration law at all, as opposed to in a certain manner that might be viewed as particularly hostile. And that's the kinds of temperature that needs to be lowered. And then here, it's just going to come down to at the end of the day, because there's obviously going to be a state attempt to prosecute this person. The federal government is going to say that this person has immunity.

25:36And the legal test is going to be whether the person acted in an objectively unreasonable or clearly unlawful manner under the federal use of force standards. and this is going to come down to a lot of things. Even the video angles, depending on what angle you look at, you might have a different take, depending on whether you're talking about the first gunshot or subsequent gunshots, you might have a different take. We may find out that the communication that was held between the driver and the ICE agents added an extra context to this. So there are so many things that you have to look at this that for anyone to rush to judgment on one day, two days, even a week after this without having all of the information in place, why was there so many ICE agents there?

26:26Why was there this stuff? Why was there the need to do any of this when none of this had to do with immigration detention, enforcement, and removal? But is there a need to do it because there was an operation that was actively happening that was being obstructed by this person? What did this person say to the ICE agents? All of this needs to be figured out before anybody can make a reasonable assessment as to who did what and were there good judgment calls or bad judgment calls. So I'm going to reserve my final opinion on this until all of those facts are obtained. But the only opinion I would give is I wish everyone else would do that as well.

27:03Coming up next, we'll turn to the situation of Venezuelan undocumented migrants. You're listening to Bloomberg. Everyone has been there. Your team's feedback is scattered across emails, chats, and sticky notes. It's a mess. But PDF Spaces and Adobe Acrobat gives you one collaborative workspace to streamline every file and comment. So if you need six departments to finally agree on a proposal, do that with Acrobat. Need to turn a mountain of feedback into one plan of action? Do that with Acrobat. Want to stop searching for files and finally get everyone on the same page? Do that, do that, do that with Acrobat.

27:43Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat. Support for the show comes from Public. Lately, it feels like there are two types of investing platforms. Some are traditional brokerages that haven't changed much in decades, and others feel less like investing and more like a game. Public is positioned differently. It's an investing platform for people who are serious about building their wealth. On Public, you can build a portfolio of stocks, options, bonds, crypto without all the bugs or the confetti. Retirement accounts, yep. High yield cash, yes again. They even have direct indexing. Public has modern design, powerful tools, and customer support that actually helps.

28:22Go to public.com slash market and earn an uncapped 1 % bonus when you transfer your portfolio. That's public.com slash market. Ad paid for by Public Holdings. Brokered services by Public Investing, member FINRA SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, SEC Registered Advisor. Crypto services by ZeroHash. All investing involves risk of loss. See complete disclosures at public.com slash disclosures. Being a small business owner isn't just a career, it's a calling. Chase for Business knows how much heart and effort go into building something of your own. That's why they make business growth their priority.

28:57The Chase team takes the time to understand your mission, where you are now, and where you want to go. Their broad range of solutions is designed with you in mind so you can bring your ideas to life. From banking to payment acceptance to credit cards, you can conveniently manage all your business finances all in one place with their digital tools. Looking for tips and advice? Their online resources are always available to give you the solutions you need to help your business thrive. See how your business can get stronger and go farther with Chase for Business. Learn more at Chase.com slash business.

29:30Chase for Business. Make more of what's yours. The Chase mobile app is available for select mobile devices. Message and data rates may apply. JPMorgan Chase Bank N.A. Member FDIC. Copyright 2026. JPMorgan Chase and Company. The about 600 ,000 Venezuelans who fled instability at home are at risk of deportation by the Trump administration because the government has ended their temporary protected status and humanitarian parole. Homeland Security Secretary Christine Noem said on Sunday that Venezuelans in the U.S. who were previously under TPS status can apply for asylum. I've been talking immigration law expert Leon Fresco of Honda Knight.