Instant Reaction: Judge Rejects Subpoenas of Fed in Powell Case, DOJ to Appeal 

0:03James Boasberg:Every small business owner has that one moment that could have broken them, but remarkably, it didn't. Hi, I'm Ben Walter, CEO of Chase for Business, and on Season 3 of The Unshakeables, my co-host Kathleen Griffith and I are bringing you more incredible stories of overcoming the impossible. We're really proud to share that The Unshakeables is nominated for Best Branded Podcast at the 2026 iHeart Podcast Awards. Listen to The Unshakeables wherever you get your podcasts and learn more at chase.com slash podcast. JPMorgan Chase Bank and a member FDIC. Copyright 2026, JPMorgan Chase and Company. So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises.

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1:35James Boasberg:Do that with Acrobat. Learn more at adobe.com slash do that with Acrobat. Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts, radio, news. This is a breaking news update from Bloomberg. Instant reaction and analysis from our 3 ,000 journalists and analysts around the world. U.S. Attorney for Washington, D.C., Janine Pirro, vowed to continue her investigation of Federal Reserve Chair Jay Powell after a judge earlier rejected subpoenas issued to the central bank threatening to delay the confirmation of Kevin Warsh as Powell's successor. She spoke from her office in D.C. Jerome Powell today is now bathed in immunity, preventing my office from investigating the Federal Reserve.

2:25James Boasberg:This is wrong, and it is without legal authority.

2:55James Boasberg:too late, Powell has done it again. It's too late. And actually, he's too angry, stupid, and too political to have the job of Fed chair. He's costing our country trillions of dollars. It sounds like a true social post. The judge started with a page and a half of social posts by President Trump. So all legal rulings are like that, right? I've never seen one like this, because usually they didn't even give a preface. He just went right into it. And, you know, the thing is that he said there's no evidence that Powell committed any crimes. They presented no evidence. On the other side, there's a mountain of evidence that this is about retribution against Powell by Trump.

3:31James Boasberg:And that's why Judge Boesberg put that out there. So political. Can we read retribution as political or no? Yes, yes, I definitely think so. And you heard Janine Pirro's talk about how there's no evidence and there's no, this is against the rules and all that stuff. Well, you know, I'll just read from rule 17 of the federal rules of criminal procedure, which prohibits subpoenas that are unreasonable or oppressive. So the judge found that this was unreasonable and probably oppressive. So, you know, this is a judge that's well known. He's the chief judge of the D.C. Circuit. Judge Bosberg you're talking about.

4:03James Boasberg:Yes. He's very well respected. But you also might know he came into prominence because he's the judge who told the Trump administration to turn the planes around when they were flying Venezuelans to El Salvador. Okay. Well, we heard from our Elliot Stein of Bloomberg Intelligence, right, who said that this is a judge who's been kind of a thorn in the side of the Trump administration. They went after him for ethics violations and failed. So it was about a conference, a private statement that he made at a conference of judges. And they actually tried to pursue ethics complaint against him. And that was dismissed.

4:37James Boasberg:So he was appointed in 2011 by President Obama. But earlier, he was appointed to the Superior Court of D.C. by President George W. Bush. So he's had support from. And, you know, we're talking about this because these days there's a lot of. He was called an activist judge by Jeanine Pirro. Not only that, by Pam Bondi months and months ago, I can find the quotes of her calling him and actually calling out Judge Boesberg and a few other judges as activist judges. So, I mean, that's a term that is used a lot by people in this administration. And you really can't put any credit on that because they call dyed-in-the-wool Republican judges appointed by Ronald Reagan activists.

5:16James Boasberg:Mike, I want you to come in. You're going to stick around a little bit later and also talk with our Tim O 'Brien about all of this. But I mean, is Jay Powell sitting there being like Yahoo or it's not over yet? So he's, you know, because remember, he made that video after the subpoenas and was was unheard of to see a Fed chair come out and do something like that.

5:35Jeanine Pirro:Well, he's not rejoicing. I'm sure he's happy with the ruling. And the Fed had always taken the position there was no crime here. And they pointed to the senators who all said there was no crime here, which Judge Bosberg notes in his decision. And the administration has just continued to pursue this. So the Fed has had to sit back. This was sort of the Fed's longer shot strategy to try to get the subpoenas quashed. It's sort of the first line of defense, and they won on that. So now they don't even have to go farther unless she wins her appeal. But Powell's going to have to wait and see what happens with the appeal.

6:17Jeanine Pirro:and if then she finds some other way to try to indict him for something because they're trying to get him. It's very interesting in Judge Bosberg's opinion, he paraphrases a man for all seasons. When he compares, he lays out all these tweets that the president put out and he said, this basically comes down to, will no one rid me of this meddlesome priest? And Jeanine Pirro is the person who's trying to do that.

6:47James Boasberg:So go back, June, then, to the legal case. What's next? What does she have to do to get these appeals? First of all, she said that this gives him blanket immunity. That's not the case. First of all, she's going to appeal. And also, they're asking for a reconsideration because she said the judge had some dates wrong. Does that matter legally? Well, it may not matter legally based on, we have to look at the context of it. But, you know, will he reconsider? Maybe he'll reconsider. But I doubt that he's going to come out with a different opinion. So that's that's next is the is the appeal. And she can also she can also find, as Mike said, other information to move her case forward.

7:29James Boasberg:And the other thing is she, and particularly the D.C. Attorney's Office, has had a lot of trouble getting grand juries to indict people in cases and having grand juries reject cases that are, you know, overcharged. This case, I have to say, getting a criminal case based on statements that are mistaken, that is a very tough case to make. I mean, perjury cases are just really difficult to make. This is something the president kind of knows about, doesn't he?

7:57Jeanine Pirro:Well, this was not about cost overruns.

7:59James Boasberg:Oh, okay.

8:00Jeanine Pirro:This was about his testimony to the Senate Banking Committee when he was asked about the cost overruns. And what he said was sort of evasive because apparently he didn't have all the information right in front of him. But there was no lie in it. And Tim Scott, the chairman of the Banking Committee, said he didn't lie to us. The rest of the Banking Committee said he didn't lie to us. But that's what Pirro is trying to build a case on.

8:26James Boasberg:Which is what she highlighted also in the press conference today.

8:29Jeanine Pirro:right in terms of the cost well yeah it all revolves around the cost okay but he didn't she hasn't tried to charge him with anything in relation to the cost it's a fishing expedition if they got some paperwork from the fed if the subpoenas had gone forward that showed he did

8:47James Boasberg:something wrong but that's fishing expeditions well i was going to say that um if you remember the barry bonds case years and years and years ago where they were trying to baseball player yes They were trying to get him perjury based on statements he made to a grand jury. And if you read it, he just went around and around. He didn't lie specifically. Seven years of pretrial and things like that. He finally got convicted, and then it was overturned on appeal. I mean, these are not easy cases to make. And by the time it goes through, Jeanine Pirro will probably be out of the D.C. office.

9:23Jeanine Pirro:Kevin Lorsch has to wait seven years. Well, that's what.

9:26James Boasberg:What? We got it. Our conversation is going to continue, June. It is going to continue. You have work to do. We have to say goodbye to you. June Grosso is Bloomberg Legal Anna. She's host of Bloomberg Law. Weeknights at 6 and 10 on Bloomberg Radio. Mike McKee, you're not so lucky. You're sticking with us. And we're going to bring our Tim O 'Brien into the studio as well and also talk with him about all of this. But Mike, one of the things... Can we go? Can we go? We're going to go. Mike, one of the things I think about is what if there is kind of the back and forth still going and Kevin Warsh, his nomination isn't confirmed.

9:58James Boasberg:What happens? Does Jay Powell stay in the job? Like, how does this?

10:03Jeanine Pirro:Well, Powell can stay as a governor until January of 2028, because that's when his governor's term ends. He would not be chairman of the Board of Governors anymore after May 15th. But the Open Market Committee that makes the interest rate decisions elects its own chair every year. And this year, the Open Market Committee elected him to be chair for the entire year. The last time they elected somebody in this situation, they said until a successor is confirmed. So they don't have to do anything. He just stays as chair until and unless he either resigns or Warsh comes in and they decide to replace Powell.

10:43James Boasberg:This is something we're going to talk about with Tim O 'Brien, too, in just a minute. But, Mike, it seems like this could have been such an easy opportunity to fast track Kevin Warsh to becoming the next Fed chair. Had Janine Pirro accepted the decision from this judge and said, OK, the judge spoke. We're done. That's it. And we're not going to appeal this. But now Tom Tillis says as long as this process continues, he will not allow Kevin Warsh to move from committee to get confirmed.

11:16Jeanine Pirro:Well, and if this is going to continue through the appeals process, it's going to continue for months because that's the way the legal system works. So Warsh is not going to be confirmed anytime soon. I suppose it makes Stephen Myron happy because he stays in the seat. But you have to shake your head. You have to wonder and say, what were they thinking? But we're always saying that these days.

11:37James Boasberg:Let's bring in Tim O 'Brien. He's Bloomberg Opinion Senior Executive Editor. He's back here in our studio. Tim, we wanted you on because you have a column earlier that we spoke about, about the president and plans and planning for this. And I think this is kind of a perfect opportunity to talk about what was the plan here? Is there a plan? Is there a plan here? And I think if we know what my answer is going to be. Yeah, I know what your answer is going to be. But this seems to be, like we were saying, not necessarily prudent to get the next Fed chair in position for President Trump. Yeah, again, you know, planning matters.

12:08James Boasberg:It matters when you plan a party. It matters when you plan a home renovation. It matters when you plan how to run a business, and it certainly matters when you plan how to run the federal government in its myriad facets and all the important things it does. So, of course, the orchestration of how you get a Fed nominee on track, how you get a Fed nominee approved, and how you then get them seated really matters. And a lot of this, the thing that's going on with Lisa Cook, it is theatrics. the issue being looked into other members of the Trump administration have wrestled with this including the treasury secretary who wasn't singled out for an investigation and it would be just wise for them to let go of it and smooth the waters and get worse right in there as Michael was saying and the fact that they're not suggests a number of things that they actually don't have a blueprint for how to go about this they're not communicating well with each other It's not clear to me how well the president's team communicated with Pirro before she got in front of a microphone to talk about this, how much of it's informed by peak rather than strategy, et cetera, et cetera.

13:24James Boasberg:And that is a common feature of how the Trump administration rolls. I want to ask you, though, Tim, like part of us sometimes wonders, is this chaotic approach and, you know, President Trump's ability or, you know, goal of putting so much out there to kind of confuse us is a plan and is a strategy? You know, the flood the zone kind of idea. How much of that do you should we think that this is part of what he wants to do? And we're not talking about some oil prices or the Epstein files or Epstein files. We talk about this all the time. there are things we're not talking about as a result. Well, so I think that this is an attempt to impose a rational structure on what's an inherently irrational process, which is that Trump is a chaotic force of nature.

14:12James Boasberg:This is who he's been forever. He hasn't really had to suffer the consequences of chaos in his own life or his own career. He's come very close a few times. He flirted with personal bankruptcy in the early 1990s. He's been through a number of marriages. He was in the White House, then out of the White House. Now he's back in again. So, you know, this is present. But I think it's important to discern strategy from chaos and discern strategy from goals. You know, I think Trump clearly has goals. It's usually self-aggrandizement or self-preservation. Almost everything that he aspires to is in one of those silos.

14:50James Boasberg:But that's not having a strategy. Strategies require patience. You have to think long-term. You have to build a team around you that can help you execute your vision. That's strategy. All the rest of it is throwing mud up against a wall to see what sticks. Who does have strategy is Jay Powell. And I keep thinking, Mike, about next week and the Fed meeting. And we'll know where I'm sure there will be posts on social media that we will get from whether it's the White House or the administration or what have you. But I just think about where Jay Powell is going to be on Wednesday, no matter what is kind of swirling around him.

15:23James Boasberg:And when it comes to this specifically, we know he'll be asked.

15:25Jeanine Pirro:Yeah, the Fed has to make a decision. And Powell, I'm sure, when asked about it, will say something along the lines of, well, we agree with the court. And that's all I'm going to say because it's under appeal and I'm not going to talk about it anymore. And then we're going to ask him, are you going to stick around as governor when your term as chair ends? And he will say, I haven't thought about that. I'm not giving that any thought right now. I'm just focused on the job in front of me, which will, in a way, get easier because of the president, because the war has pushed up oil prices and is threatening the economy.

16:00Jeanine Pirro:The Fed is now going to be sitting back and doing nothing. Even if Kevin Walsh were confirmed immediately, he wouldn't be cutting rates under these circumstances. Would Stephen Myron? No, I don't think so. OK. I mean, we talked to Stephen the week the war started, and he said, I just don't know enough right now, so I'm still on my position. But if you thought that inflation was going to rise significantly, then cutting rates would not be the thing you'd want to do. Myron's argument would be, well, if the economy is going to slow, we're going to get higher unemployment, then that is something you might cut rates for.

16:34Jeanine Pirro:But for right now, we're not seeing that.

16:37James Boasberg:Tim, where is the president's advisors? Like, I'm just thinking in a normal White House, they would be like midterms, affordability. You know, just as Mike was talking, I was thinking stagflation, stagflation, stagflation. Yeah, we do. All of the, you know, all the bells are chiming towards that. You know, I think in Trump's first White House, he had advisors around him who talked back, whether it was, you know, General Mattis on the one hand or Rex Tillerson on the other. And I don't think those sort of people exist in this administration, because I think the lesson that the president took away from his first administration was people who give you independent advice get in your way.

17:16James Boasberg:And they contradict how you see the world. And he doesn't like either one of those things. So what you have now is essentially an apparatus around him that's enabling. But anyone who talks to people in the White House or reports on it describes it as essentially a tornado of different goals and poor communication. What did you, Tim, were your takeaways of the press conference we saw with the U.S. attorney, Janine Pirro? It was combative. It was energetic.

17:50James Boasberg:I'm just confused about who that was for and how you see it as an emissary of the president. It reminded me of the attorney general's recent congressional testimony where it was similar. It was, I am not going to concede your point. I'm not really going to answer your question. I'm here because Donald Trump is the best president in the history of the world. And our goal is to achieve X and therefore we will do it. And I tend to think, I think today the war secretary, Pete Hegseth, gave a press conference to debrief the American public on where we are. And it was very performative. And again, I think all of these people are cognizant of that when they're on TV, there's an audience of one in the Oval Office that they have to think about before everyone else.

18:38Jeanine Pirro:There's something interesting about this, too, because at the Defense Department, remember, they essentially forced all the regular mainstream press out. So the people who are at Hegsest News Conference are all basically affiliated with right-wing media outlets. But at the Justice Department today, there was a lot of antagonism that she was responding to. She got asked, how does this fit in with all of the other cases that you have failed to get grand juries to indict? Right. And that made her very angry at the end.