Pirro Drops Reflecting Pool Charges & Ice Arrests at Airports

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1:13Check out Wasabi's AI-enabled intelligent media storage, Wasabi Air, and the industry's only cloud storage service with triple protection against cyber criminals. Wasabi, driving innovation in data storage for up to 80 % less than market competition. Try for free at Wasabi.com. Wasabi Hot Cloud Storage, proud partner of iHeart Podcast Network. This is Bloomberg Law with June Grosso from Bloomberg Radio. Our evidence further shows that the National Park Service employees observed Hearn actually forcefully and violently pulling up and removing the bottom liner with both hands. Just a month ago, D.C.

2:00U.S. Attorney Janine Pirro was adamant that the government had evidence to prove that former Olympic rower David Hearn damaged the reflecting pool by violently ripping up sealant from the bottom of the pool. Does that indicate in your belief that it was probably damaged before or do you believe that he... Oh, he damaged it. Further, but do you believe it had already been damaged before? He damaged the pool. A stunning reversal on Friday when Pirro dropped the felony vandalism charges against Hearn, saying that the damage was actually the result of a botched installation by the contractor. President Trump continues to insist that vandals damaged the pool.

2:43I was disappointed with Jeanine Pirro, really disappointed with Jeanine Pirro. She folded like an umbrella. Bob Pirro blamed the Interior Department for providing less than fulsome information and said she wouldn't have sought a grand jury indictment if the agency had been more forthcoming, but also wrote in the filing that a visual inspection showed damage throughout the reflecting pool, even in the middle, where a vandal wouldn't likely attempt to peel the lining. I mean, shouldn't the U.S. Attorney's Office have done a minimal, at least, investigation before they file felony charges against someone?

3:22Leon Fresco:That's exactly the question here and why this is such an embarrassing setback for the Department of Justice, because typically the Department of Justice does not rely on another agency to do its own investigation. And in this particular case, there was no real rush to judgment. In other words, we didn't have a circumstance where there was a potential danger to the community or where the potential defendant was a flight risk. There was no reason the Department of Justice had to move to indict him so quickly. And for them to now turn around and say that the information that they had been given by the Interior Department was incorrect, and as you said, the visual inspection revealed damage throughout the reflecting pool, such that a vandal would not likely have attempted to peel the lining back, really undermines the Department of Justice's position because it shows that they never did a thorough investigation before going into the grand jury and seeking an indictment in this case.

4:25Also, in her press conference announcing this, she said there was an effort, a violent effort, to rip up the sealant from the bottom of the pool. And she also said that, yes, there was more than a thousand dollars in damage. And now it appears that that was a misrepresentation of what happened.

4:44Leon Fresco:Well, it certainly seems that way. And I think to put this into context, it's fair to point out that the idea of the Department of Justice simply outright dismissing charges after an indictment is brought is exceedingly rare. It almost never happens. And the reason it doesn't happen is because federal prosecutors typically take their time to investigate cases to make sure that they have enough evidence to gain a conviction if their case goes to trial. In fact, the guidelines for the U.S. Attorney's Office require that prosecutors cannot go into a grand jury and present a case for indictment unless they believe that they have evidence that would be admissible at trial that is likely to result in a conviction.

5:36Leon Fresco:So here it seems like there was a real rush to judgment where they went out and they indicted based on limited information that was coming from the Interior Department. And it turned out, according to the Department of Justice, to not be true. It seemed like an overcharge to me to charge, even if there was some vandalism, to charge him with a felony, you know, with the max being 10 years. It reminded me of the case of the guy now known as the sandwich guy who tossed a sandwich at an ICE agent and Pirro tried to charge him with a felony, but the grand jury wouldn't return a felony indictment. No, I think that's a fair point because let's keep in mind that this case turned on a single count of property destruction, which carries a maximum sentence of 10 years or up to 10 years in prison if there's a conviction.

6:32Leon Fresco:And the key to removing this case from a misdemeanor, which would only allow a prison sentence of up to a year, to a felony, which in this case allows a prison sentence of up to 10 years, is the government's ability to prove that the defendant caused at least$1 ,000 in damage to the pool. What ended up happening here is that the defense counsel focused on that damages issue because what they were trying to do is at a minimum move this case from a felony back to a misdemeanor by trying to show that the government could not meet that$1 ,000 threshold. And they focused on testimony that apparently occurred in the grand jury in order to obtain this indictment, where the government apparently presented only one witness on that element, on that critical element of showing that the damage caused allegedly by this defendant was at least$1 ,000.

7:26Leon Fresco:dollars. According to the defense, that witness testified that the property had already deteriorated, that the pool had already begun to fall apart in terms of the lining coming up from the bottom, and that the repairs that would have been needed would have been needed even without Mr. Hearn's alleged conduct, and that the witness testified also that he could not quantify any loss. This is according to the defense caused by the alleged conduct of the defendant. So they were really already attacking not only the question of whether their client committed any crime at all, but they were focusing on whether the government can meet this thousand dollar threshold that they used to turn this case from a misdemeanor into a felony.

8:12I'm wondering about the timing here, because they dropped the charges shortly after the defense was trying to get the grand jury transcripts because of what they said were irregularities in the process. And we have seen in several instances irregularities in the presentation of cases by federal prosecutors to grand juries. And I'm wondering if that might have been an impetus for dropping the case as well, that those would have been revealed.

8:45Leon Fresco:No, that's exactly right. That was what the defense had focused on. And according to the defense, the sole witness that the government relied on to prove damages did not even say or suggest that the alleged conduct by Mr. Hearn had compromised the liner at all. And in fact, in the charging document, he was simply charged with touching some of the liner that had floated to the surface. According to the prosecution, even in the indictment, he was accused of pulling up a two-foot square piece of the pool's lining. Now, the defendant's version of what happened, and this is a statement he gave just before his arrest, is that he was biking and he pulled over to the pool there and put his hand in the reflecting pool.

9:35Leon Fresco:And he said that he reached in to examine the pool's newly peeled coating and briefly touched a chunk attached to the side of the pool. But he said that he obeyed a park worker who was standing right there with him and told him to let it go. So he basically said he did absolutely nothing to in any way vandalize the reflecting pool. And it seems that the government's witness largely corroborated the defendant's statement. And that is perhaps the reason why we're seeing this sudden dismissal of this indictment, because again, it's so exceedingly rare that prosecutors will fully dismiss a case rather than try to plead it down to a misdemeanor or work out some kind of a plea deal.

10:20Leon Fresco:Here, it seems that the grand jury testimony that the defense was pressing for and that a judge would likely require prosecutors to turn over may have completely undermined the prosecution's case. And before that happened, it seems that Jeanine Pirro, the U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia felt that she had no choice but to dismiss the case. President Trump is exceedingly angry about this. He said that he disagreed 100 percent with what she did. To me, it was a pure case of vandalism. If he installs a new U.S. attorney for D.C., is it possible that a new U.S. attorney could bring these charges again?

11:02Leon Fresco:Well, I think it's possible that a U.S. attorney could bring the charges, but I think the defense would have an ample basis to try to move to dismiss them. And at the end of the day, it doesn't seem like the facts here are going to change. What was really extraordinary here was that not only did Ms. Pirro dismiss these charges, but she did so, or the government did so in a 20-page court filing with the judge in the case, saying that they had been provided with additional documents by the Interior Department since the indictment showing that the damage was a result of a botched installation by a contractor as well as the quote rush to complete the project prior to events associated with the America 250 celebration in the week surrounding Independence Day 2026.

11:53Leon Fresco:So what's really unusual here is that this dismissal didn't solely focus on the conduct of this defendant. In other words, it wasn't simply saying, this is why we have to dismiss this case against this defendant. Instead, it was a broad rebuke of the entire concept that any of the damage caused by the reflecting pool was done by vandals. It really completely undermined the narrative that came not only from President Trump, but also from the Interior Secretary, who took a completely different position and immediately issued a statement saying that the Interior Department provided the U.S. Attorney's Office with expert and eyewitness testimonies to the damage done by vandals and provided every piece of evidence they asked for and in the requested timeline detailing each area of damage to the pool.

12:47Leon Fresco:So what we're seeing here is really an unheard of scenario where you have one branch of government blaming and criticizing the other, a dispute between the Department of Justice and the president, a dispute between the Department of Justice and the Interior Department, and all of this is playing out in full public view. It's really something that is extraordinary and is unheard of where you see this type of internal debate within the government being played out on the national stage in full public view on such a high-profile issue. And given the high-profile nature of this prosecution, because of all of the publicity surrounding the reflecting pool and Independence Day and the very high-profile nature that the president made these repairs and having it ready in time for Independence Day, it really is extraordinary that the U.S.

13:42Leon Fresco:attorney has blamed the Interior Department and really come very close to saying that they were misled. Janine Pirro actually said that they would never have brought this case had they known of the evidence that was being withheld, withheld from the Department of Justice by the Interior Department. That is an extraordinary charge from one agency to another. This is one embarrassment for the D.C. U.S. attorneys. They also had the sandwich guy case that I mentioned where a jury didn't even convict him of a misdemeanor. You have the case where they tried to get lawmakers indicted over the video that they made telling soldiers that they don't have to obey orders that are illegal.

14:26And then you had the failed subpoenas for former Fed chair Jerome Powell. So, I mean, it's been one thing after another with this office.

14:36Leon Fresco:Well, it certainly does lend credibility to those people who have criticize the office of responding to outside pressures, those often coming from the White House, to bring criminal cases. And there appears to be, in many of these cases, a rush to judgment where prosecutors have to either dismiss charges when they find out that the evidence that they thought they had doesn't actually exist, or in some cases, grand juries simply refusing to even return indictments in cases where prosecutors believe they have enough evidence to proceed with a criminal case. And as far as this case, we may hear more in the future from the defense because Hearn's attorneys say they're looking at all possible remedies.

15:22Thanks so much, Bob, as always. That's Robert Mintz of McCarter in English.

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17:30Help! Help! Help us! Hey, you guys, come help us! ICE is here! Help us! Help us! If you go to an airport in the U.S. these days, you may see a different kind of scene from the usual endless lines. ICE agents roaming around and arresting immigrants who have expired visas and sometimes facing opposition from concerned bystanders. I don't know what they're doing. What's going on? What's going on?

18:03Leon Fresco:We can stop and write to know what's going on. Are you okay? Are you okay? Come on. Come on. Come on.

18:17Whether it's LAX, JFK, or any of about 13 other major airports, ICE is opening up a new front in its drive to make 2 ,000 arrests a day. And arrests at airports are made easier these days by a new cooperation arrangement between ICE and TSA. Joining me is an expert in immigration law, Leon Fresco, a partner at Holland & Knight. Leon, are these airport arrests something new? Well, it's not completely new, meaning it's not that it's never happened before. But what is happening is that ICE, under the threat of needing to arrest 2 ,000 people a day, is increasingly arresting people at U.S. airports.

19:01And that's happening because when you're at an airport, you obviously don't have weapons. You're in a controlled environment. It's easier for ICE to be able to arrest you. So what happens is TSA is doing information sharing with ICE. And that's what's new. And now that TSA is doing information sharing with ICE, they have the manifest of the people who are going to be crossing the TSA that morning. Just like now, if you cross, you barely sometimes don't even need to show your ticket anymore. You just show your face and you go right through. They know everybody who's coming, why they're coming, what they're coming for.

19:38And so when one of these individuals that ICE is uncertain as to their status rings the bell, essentially, and then shows up, then now TSA is referring to those individuals to ICE and is asking them, hey, prove that you're here legally. And a lot of people are in these quasi-statuses. So that's a problem. Some people who are undocumented completely, yes, those people are being arrested. They're being detained. They're being placed in removal proceedings. But the more complicated issue is there's a lot of people whose cases have been pending for many, many months because the administration has decided to dramatically slow down the legal immigration system, including pausing it for people from many countries, although there's currently an injunction preventing that.

20:23But there's still many people who are stuck behind that pause as the backlog developed for many, many months from that pause. And so a lot of people who should normally be able to fly domestically in the United States are now terrified to fly because they're worried they won't be able to explain their complicated pending immigration status to an ICE agent who's incentivized to arrest them. From what I've been seeing, a lot of the people where their arrests have been documented on video by bystanders, a lot of them have expired visas, I mean, expired for years. Well, what happens is this. So let's say you are an Indian national.

21:05This is a perfect example of this. So the Indian national comes to the United States on a student visa that might have been valid on April 1st, 2020. as an example that may have been when they got their stamp to originally come into the United States a lot of Indian nationals many of them who are my clients never leave the country again after they first arrived as a student they stay for all the years they're a student they change their status from inside the United States to what's called H1B visa status and then the problem is there's a backlog because only 7 % of all green cards each year are allowed to go to one country.

21:47So for Indian nationals, the green card backlog is like 80 years, 100 years. So they don't leave, they just stay. And so that initial visa stamp is expired, but their status is lawful. They just need to show this document called an I-797 that has the approval of their most recent extension of their H-1B status from inside the United States. The problem is most people don't carry those documents around on a domestic flight but now they better because the point is if you if you show a visa that is because the visa expiration on your passport only says the last date you're allowed to enter the united states it says nothing about whether you're currently in legal status so many people will have extended their status through a number of ways.

22:37But now people are going to need to be very careful to sort of have an exegesis written by an immigration lawyer with supporting documents that they can just hand to an ICE agent and say, here you go. Here's all the proof you need. Please let me board my flight to Cleveland now. So that's now we're in a completely new world now. So let's say someone with an expired visa is traveling and ICE picks them up. Some of these people have applied for asylum. What happens next? Are they taken into custody? So what needs to happen is first they need to try to figure out if the person is here lawfully or not.

23:13But the question is, even there, what are they doing? Are they doing this from a, like, you know, we'll detain you first and ask questions later? Or are they asking the questions first at the airport and letting people out? So I've been very interested in this because I have a lot of clients in this field. And most of the clients I have who've been detained have been let out at the airport. But if you cannot prove that you have a lawful status, they are detaining you and they're putting you in detention until your removal proceedings are over. So you won't get out. So here you were thinking you were doing a flight from Houston to Cleveland and now you're in detention until you get deported or until you win your case.

23:54And so there are some people who are entitled to bond hearings. And so those people can ask to be let out on bond while their immigration detention case is going on. But the families of those people are going to need to find wherever they've been detained and find what immigration court their case is pending and hire a lawyer and and file a bond hearing and argue that bond case. So all of that is, again, a completely new world from the world that previously existed. And DHS just cares that it's counting as an arrest that day. Right, exactly. So now you have a much larger number of people you can arrest.

24:32Of course, this is something of rapidly diminishing returns, because if people now know they're going to get arrested at the airport, you might have gotten a good spike initially. But what you've essentially accomplished is a ban on domestic flying for undocumented individuals, because now they know, okay, don't take the airport. So maybe we'll move to the bus next or the train or something. I don't know what will happen next. But the point is, if this keeps going on, that's really just what's going to happen is you're just not going to see, first of all, for sure, undocumented people flying, but even documented people who are not lawful permanent residents or who are not citizens may decide, you know what, I don't need to take this flight.

25:13I don't need this aggravation. And so that might not be so great for the economy if people aren't flying who have every lawful reason to be in the United States. TSA and ICE, they're all in the Department of Homeland Security. They're all part of the Department of Homeland Security. But what's new is TSA didn't share previously the passenger manifest of who was coming in every day to the airport with ICE. So now they're sharing that. And so now ICE knows who's coming into the airport that day. And ICE can then cross-reference it with its databases and say, okay, I want you to select number 62, number 78, number 412, number 371.

25:51And when those people go through the system, because now everyone, you don't just walk through. Now you actually scan an ID and take a picture and everything. So when those people do those things, the alarm bell immediately goes off. Bing, bing, bing. They get referred to ICE. And now ICE starts talking to those individuals about what their status is. So that came from the top, right? That came from the top. That is a DHS leadership directive. They said that they've arrested a million people. Is that a million since the beginning of the Trump administration? I think that is a million since the beginning of the Trump administration, because at the end of the day, they wouldn't have had the ability to arrest 2 million people over the course of just one year.