Apple’s Ternus Era Starts the iPhone Duo

21:29Ed Ludlow:Sid, in MediaTek's case, NVIDIA made a very significant investment through the purchase of convertible notes. Under your arrangement with NVIDIA, are they making an equity or any other kind of investment into Dmatrix to help you get moving? At this point, Ted, I couldn't comment on the investment piece specifically, but look, this is a partnership that is very strategic to NVIDIA. and they are putting a lot of, you know, resources, engineering resources. There is obviously a lot of work the two teams have been doing for six plus months. And our first goal is to really make sure that the Raptor XPU that is going to be integrated into the NVIDIA ecosystem is going to be ready to come to market in about 12 months.

22:18So the biggest opportunity here is really about getting that product in customers' hands because we've got a lot of customer pull for that specific product in the NVIDIA ecosystem.

22:28Ed Ludlow:So on your newest chip or your newest platform, I should say, is there any data point you can give me on how the partnership with NVIDIA tangibly allows you to move faster? In other words, will this deploy into the real world quicker than it otherwise would had you not struck a deal with NVIDIA for NVLink Fusion? Yeah, no, 100%. Look, the Raptor XPU, which is the specific XPU that's in partnership with NVIDIA and will be launched as part of this partnership first, is going to be the world's first 3D-stacked DRAM XPU. And just let me touch upon why that is so important. It is important because memory is really the biggest bottleneck for AI right now, and we all know that.

23:12And what we have done is, instead of using HVM, we don't use any HVM at Dmatrix. What we have done is we have taken DRAM and found a way to package it directly with the compute. And it is 3D stacked, exactly like you just saw in the picture there. And that allows for the architecture to punch through the memory wall, which is really the biggest bottleneck in AI today in terms of addressing latency, addressing energy efficiency, addressing cost. And we have found a recipe. We have cracked the code on how to do it. And we'll be the first to bring that solution to market. So there is tremendous customer pull for that product right now because no other company is going to be within a two-year window of getting access to that technology.

23:58And this NVIDIA partnership will truly allow us to take that to market the fastest because there is already a deployed base of all that infrastructure and all the data centers. And we don't want to reinvent that part of the wheel. We'd much rather just ride on the NVIDIA ecosystem and get the product to our customers as soon as possible.

24:13Ed Ludlow:So, Sid, we're short of time here. Who are those new customers? If I look at your cap table, there's lots of sovereign wealth funds on there who have lots of national AI projects. We just have 30 seconds. Yes, yes. It's a combination, Ed. And we'll be announcing these customers. Stay tuned. It is a combination of hyperscalers, Frontier Labs, Sovereign, Inference Clouds, high-frequency traders. Stay tuned. We're going to be announcing these customers in pretty short order. Sid Sheff of Dmatrix, thank you so much for your time. There's another important story. as NVIDIA expands its ties with specialized AI chip makers, one of those deals is drawing scrutiny.

24:48Ed Ludlow:The Justice Department is investigating NVIDIA's$20 billion tie-up with AI inference startup Grok and whether it was structured to avoid an antitrust review, according to sources. Grok remained independent, but its CEO and COO moved to NVIDIA as a part of the deal. U.S. lawmakers have called the arrangement a takeover that stifled competition. NVIDIA representatives and a DOJ spokesperson declined to comment. A representative for Grok did not respond to requests for comment. It's time now for Talking Tech. I'm Yahaira Anand. First up, OpenAI is ending its deal for government agencies to use its models for$1 per year.

25:29That's according to the General Services Administration. Starting October 1st, agencies will have to pay based on how much they use them with a 50 % discount off standard pricing. Plus, Anthropic is giving the EU's cybersecurity agency access to its most powerful Mythos AI model after months of back and forth over who should be allowed to use it. Of course, Anthropic has tightly restricted access because it says the model is so powerful it can uncover cybersecurity flaws on its own. And DeepSeek unveiled its latest AI model that charges as little as a fraction of a cent per million tokens, putting even more pressure on rivals to bring down prices.

26:12DeepSeek even claims the new model outperforms Moonshot's Kimi K3. Ed.

26:17Ed Ludlow:Thank you, Yohaira.

26:25Ed Ludlow:Welcome back to Bloomberg Tech. Let's get back to Apple and the iPhone duo. Bloomberg Intelligence senior analyst Anamirag Rana writing today that, quote, we anticipate a much better consumer reception than recent models. Anorag joins us now. I knew this was a big deal because while I was at Apple Park running around the Steve Jobs Theater, I got an email from you. And I thought, OK, Anorag has something important to say here. You're really bullish on how many of these you think that Apple will ship in the first year. Yeah, I think the rumor was that there are suppliers to do about 10 million units or so.

26:59But I think for the first time in years, I've seen a product that is designed far better than the earlier generation of products. the UI was completely mind-blowing in terms of how the software was infused. I mean, I could see so many new use cases in terms of consumers having things side by side. So, again, you have to remember, the ultra side of the Apple consumer is fairly expensive and rich, I would say. So, if you are selling about, let's say, 240, 250 million units in a year, you know, 14 million is not that big of a deal in terms of like that's not even, you know, there are massive amount of affluent consumers who would do that.

27:39In fact, in our own circle, I asked a bunch of people and I got an overwhelming response that they actually may be thinking of upgrading for the first time in years.

27:50Ed Ludlow:The price point, Anurag, what was notable about the psychology of coming just under$2 ,000 at the entry level? See, I think$2 ,000 is exactly what Mark Gurman had reported. So, we were looking into that. But what I was surprised about is when you look at the upgrade plan, it was priced at about$57.99 a month for 24 months, which means the residual value after two years is also still over$600. So that number was a bit surprising to me because I would have thought that would be a little higher. I think that's a very attractive price point for people who want to finance it. I mean,$58 a month is not that much if you are thinking about it from that point of view.

28:32Ed Ludlow:That's interesting because this is, I imagine, just first generation, right? They'll iterate on top of this. Also, Anurag, if you would, your assessment of John Ternus as CEO, the Apple iPhone day keynote for the first time in that role, what did you make of all of it? I think one of the things that really caught my attention was that the center of discussion was around the product quality, design, and the integration of the whole ecosystem. to him. He talked about it a lot. And I think that's where, going back to the roots of Steve Jobs, the focus on that. And again, Mark has said that he has been working on this project for a very long period of time.

29:12I'm really curious to see if he's able to spend some more money, I would say a little more capex, into new product developments. Even if it's a dud, it's okay. But more experimentation would be really nice. And I have a feeling that we're going to see that Trump him.

29:28Ed Ludlow:Alarag Rana of Bloomberg Intelligence with the React. Thank you so much. I want to get more reaction from the sell side. Wamsi Moen, who leads research covering IT hardware and tech supply chain at Bank of America, reiterating a buy rating on the stock following the launch of iPhone Duo and saying that the iPhone Duo, quote, impresses. Wamsi Moen of Bank of America joins us now. What about it specifically impresses you? Yeah. Good morning, Ed. Thanks for having me. Look, I think that this is where Apple excels. It's in bringing the hardware and the software and the services, all of those, and tightly integrating it.

30:06I was at Apple Park yesterday. I had an opportunity to feel the device. The quality of it really feels excellent. You can play with it, open it, close it. And the way that the software morphs around that, the way that the apps rearrange themselves around that, that's the magic that Apple brings. And it was truly an excellent product. It was definitely a home run from a new keynote from a new CEO standpoint. I think one of the things that's also very impressive is that, you know, obviously Apple has worked on this for a long time. But we're seeing the same ethos of product design, the importance of this whole stack.

30:44You heard of a lot of new chips that are being designed into this product specifically for this product. But I think all of these are things that are very core to the Apple ecosystem, and we're seeing a reiteration of that again.

30:57Ed Ludlow:Wamsi, how many models or do you have a model for the number of units you think Apple can do on Duo in the December quarter in its first 12-month period? Yeah, so, Ed, you know, actually when we were in Asia back in March, we picked up that the foldable was somewhere between 10 to 20 million units is what Apple was asking for production. And so as we look through what can happen in the first year, it's going to depend a little bit on whether or not some of these installment plans are taken advantage of. There's also the handoff feature, which I think is very interesting and coming at a time when people are also facing pressure from a spending perspective.

31:36And so I would say somewhere between that 10 to 20 million units for the year is pretty realistic in year one. I think about 17 million units for the year or so is where we shake out. Now, as we look into the following year, I think that TAM really starts to expand. You can also bring pricing down a little bit on some of the models and have a broader skew and broader price spectrum around this product as well. But I think to start off, this is going to be a very, very well-coveted and desired product.

32:04Ed Ludlow:Wamsi, let's talk a little bit more about the handoff. It's something we discussed last with Bloomberg's Mark Gurman. But the idea is that that could drive an upgrade cycle in and of itself because you make it easy for a consumer to go from a this shape phone, candy bar shape to the foldable. Do you really see that as the catalyst? Yeah, I wouldn't say that's the only catalyst. I think the feature functionality, it's a very good standalone device by itself. I just think that for pro users, the ability to have a handoff, for instance, if I'm carrying two separate phones, one for my work, one for my personal use, and then I'm able to hand off any of those at any given point in time for productivity reasons, that can be really appealing.

32:48So I think it does sort of substitute almost as a productivity enhancer, which I would say is more of me not using an iPad mini almost instead of using and instead use the Duo is the way that I would think about it. It's complementary more so to the iPad from a productivity standpoint rather than an incremental yet another device that you're going to have to carry.

33:12Ed Ludlow:I'd love to get into the specifics of the A20 Pro chip. You mentioned the chip innovation, 2 nanometer process, 6-core CPU, 7-core GPU, 40 % faster graphics, but basically much better in the AI context. Was that a real move forward from Apple, you think? Yeah, look, I mean, I think it's very clear that right at the beginning, right, John Ternus' opening statements and in the keynote, it was very obvious that AI is going to be very, very central to the strategy. We've written extensively about the fact that Apple is going to be a winner at AI at the edge. And we think that this whole notion around privacy, being able to do a lot of things on device, is where Apple is going to excel.

33:54And for that, you're going to need more memory. You're going to need faster processors. You're seeing innovation over there with the A20, as you just mentioned, Ed. And I think that the key here is to be able to do more by loading sparse models, by being able to take advantage of the architecture, which is so tightly integrated with the hardware design overall. And I think that this is where Apple, again, excels. And we're going to see a lot more innovation in AI across all sorts of devices from Apple. And this is just the start of that. I think AI is going to be very dominant because this is a modernization vehicle, not just for devices, but also for first-party services.

34:31and eventually for third-party services. And we think the time for this is much, much larger than what people expect. So we're very excited about what's yet to come from an AI standpoint from Apple.

34:40Ed Ludlow:Wamzi, I heard many Apple executives say and indeed post, this is a new chapter for Apple. What do you think changes from this point on under John Turnus? Yeah, I think the most notable change here is what was announced as a departure from net cash neutral. And what that really means from an Apple standpoint, in our opinion, is that we're giving John Ternus the ability to go and invest as he would like, right? So we've taken away some of the barriers around maintaining net cash neutral, which means you opened up the aperture for more M &A, you opened up the aperture for spending more CapEx. And we've done some analysis around this and think that if Apple were to spend$100 billion dollars cumulatively through 2030, so$20 billion a year.

35:28You can get a sizable amount of infrastructure set in place for a lot of things from an AI workload perspective to be done on device and Apple private cloud compute. And so you don't really have to go off to other cloud providers to really be able to do all the AI, to take all the AI workloads and be able to satisfy those requests that are coming to them and instead be able to do it either locally on device or do it on private cloud compute. So we think this is a big deal and we think that this is where John Ternus will be able to differentiate on what we can do on device and on Apple private cloud compute in the age of AI.

36:09Ed Ludlow:Bam Zimone of Bank of America from Apple Park next day on the show. Appreciate it a lot. Thank you. Two other companies that we're watching today, Oracle and Adobe. By the way, both have earnings due out after the closing bell. One more of an infrastructure hyperscaler story, The other is software, both of them an AI story. Both down pretty significantly ahead of those prints. Coming up on the show, Positron CEO, Mitek AgriWild, joins us to discuss the chip startup's latest funding round at a$5 billion valuation in the private market. Now, if you're a Bloomberg Terminal user, check out LiveGo.

36:41Ed Ludlow:Bloomberg Power Players is live in New York. Some of the leading voices from the business of sport join us to discuss the multi-trillion dollar global industry. Something else that'll be fun. Al Silas, a reporter here at Bloomberg News, we broke a deal that you're involved in, which was the Yankees deal with Apollo. And then, of course, they announced it. The people who seem to get more done than everyone else, they're not working longer hours or running on more caffeine. They've just stopped wasting time on the stuff that doesn't move work forward. Switching apps, re-explaining context, hunting for files.

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40:00Ed Ludlow:Okay, across private markets, investors continue to show an appetite for backing startups aiming to take on NVIDIA's lead, but focused on inference. The latest example, Positron, has raised$875 million at a$5 billion valuation to bring its inference-focused silicon to market. Pastor John's CEO, Nitesh Agrawal, is with us. Okay, let's just do the round. That was a big round split into two tranches. But also the participants, super interesting. There must be a need for capital. What is it? Yeah, no, thanks, Ed, for having me. And, like, look, the need for capital is growth. I mean, we've seen the last, literally the last three days of news.

40:36You know, Navier, Stokes, Muse, Astra. Look at the amount of compute increases that's going. So the scale is very important. And supply chain, obviously, is a big kind of constraint. So anyone that can scale out in the current supply chain regime and can use capital to do that, that's kind of where the need comes from. And that's kind of what this is really driving is scale out of our next generation silicon and systems.

40:57Ed Ludlow:So let's talk about that next generation system. Where is Postron at with it? And just explain the basics of what you offer. Yeah, yeah. Like, look, we're really focused on inference silicon and systems. And we deploy it at a rack scale. We have our first product out, first generation called Atlas already out, 50 racks at Oracle getting deployed. and then second generation, the silicon is called Asimov. The systems are called Titan and that scales out of the rack scale setup. Basically, what we are really, really focused on is memory-first architecture. So we drive massive amounts of memory capacity and very high realized memory bandwidth to really get fast inference but at really good TCO.

41:35Like that's kind of the, look, making inference cheaper so that you can have more access to compute, making all this kind of applications, you know, code generation, research, all those faster is very, very critical, right? So we are taping out end of this year with our next generation silicon Asimov, and then Titan will be in production sometime second half of next year.

41:53Ed Ludlow:Taping out at the end of this year, take us from there throughout the process. How does that work out? Yeah, so taping out, and then you get your first silicon back in about anywhere between 8 to 12 weeks. And we're taping out with TSMC, N3P. They're close partners for us. And then N3P is the node. And then you get your first silicon back. And then validation? Yeah. As expected with most kind of companies nowadays for silicon companies, you want your first silicon to be a success, as in it should work. We expect that to work. Otherwise it gets expensive. Yes, yes. And look, we spend on emulation and other kind of techniques to make sure that there are as less bugs as possible as we move forward.

42:33But yeah, validation, bring up. You get your first in production systems. You put your silicon into your systems. and then you're really testing out kind of all the cutting-edge models of whatever the models will be in June and seeing how that works.

42:46Ed Ludlow:You talked about the existing generation 50 racks of Oracle. Yeah. But is Oracle the customer? How does your go-to-market work? Yeah, so for our first generation, the way we have done generally for go-to-market is kind of typical silicon semiconductor company. So it's a CapEx sell to Oracle. So Oracle buys it as a CapEx purchase on their balance sheet and they pay us as a PO. So it's a very, very standard purchase. Obviously, as we grow, there is more motions around how do you sell. Obviously, Neoclouds and Hyperscursion sell at a dollar per GPU or dollar per systems per hour. And then there's even further optimization into dollar per million tokens and then all of those things.

43:25So as a company, we have to evolve through partnerships and working with all these players. But the first generation is very simple.

43:31Ed Ludlow:Do you have some customers lined up for these next generations, even though given the stages they're at? And what kinds of companies are those? Or name them, it's up to you. Won't name them yet. Suspected not. Yeah, yeah. But really, you have to think about the very, very typical kind of space, you know, the kind of AI labs or model labs companies. Neo clouds that are out there, hyperscalers that, you know, and one already Oracle, our customer. You know, you obviously have a little bit of look into the sovereign play as well because they are deploying and building out a lot of their own inference data center capacities.

44:04and then really anyone that has to do token as a service or inference as a service. So either they can be their net consumers of themselves of tokens or video generations or someone who's packaging them and selling them into the market, right? So that's kind of your broad ecosystem of the customer base for us where we have really focused on, look, it is a go big or go home market kind of thing in the sense that you have to focus on these very large application companies to really get a large footing in the market.

44:31Ed Ludlow:Let's finish by talking about Jevon's Paradox and also NVIDIA. So on Gem's Paradox, the idea that a resource gets more efficient, the economics improve, and then demand goes up. Is that what you see? And then earlier, you would have heard Dematrix on the show partnering with NVIDIA on NVLink so that their custom platform slots into existing GPU-based architecture. Both of those things are true at the same time? Yeah. So on the Gem's Paradox, I mean, look, I think it's, you know what, NVIDIA, sorry, OpenAI recently said that when they slashed the prices by half, they saw the utilization go up by 10x.

45:03Today, DeepSeek, we 4.1. Amazing, amazing launch, I think. Very cheap, sole-level performance based on early results. I haven't looked into the architecture yet, but look, again, really great for use cases and utilization. I think that will go up. It's a good story for us as well, especially around memory. They're using LPDDR5X. We are also doing that, so that's kind of really interesting. On NVIDIA's kind of working, look, NVIDIA is absolutely the main player in the market, right? Whether it's training, absolutely main one, and then even in inference, they are the majority kind of there. So for all of us, including Positron AI, we really focus on how can we work with them.

45:40We have to be in the same data centers, in fact, even same racks as them to work with them. So we also plan on connecting. Will you do an MV-Link fusion agreement? We will definitely. Try? Yeah, we will definitely talk to them and try it. But without even, just wanted to make clear also on technical side of things, you can directly connect with NVIDIA GPUs even today through standard Ethernet and Infantiband connections. So this doesn't stop you from doing it, but obviously you want to get closer. And then, look, you mentioned the people on our board, right? Gavin is on our board. He's very, very clear.

46:10Gavin Baker at Trades. Correct, Gavin Baker at Trades. He's very clear about, look, we have to, this is a heterogeneous computer market. This is how it's going to grow.

46:18Ed Ludlow:Post-A-Tron CEO, Mitesh Agrawal. Thank you. Really appreciate it. Some breaking news crossing the Bloomberg. Saudi Arabia's wealth fund is considering combining electronic arts with savvy games, sources say a deal that would bring blockbuster titles like Madden NFL and Pokemon Go under one roof. The sources point out no final decisions have been made and a deal is unlikely to happen until Savvy completes its six billion dollar acquisition of Chinese mobile gaming business Moonton. Coinbase is betting stable coins so it could become the next big growth engine. CEO Brian Armstrong says the roughly 300 billion dollar market could grow tenfold by 2030 as more businesses use digital dollars for payments and moving money across borders.

47:01Ed Ludlow:He says improving regulation in the U.S. could accelerate that adoption with a key piece of crypto legislation facing a Senate vote next week. He spoke with Bloomberg's Hazlinda Armin. Well, regulatory clarity has been getting a lot better. You know, from a U.S. lens last year, the Genius Act was passed into law for stable coins and we saw 150 large companies adopt stable coins in the wake of that. And now the Clarity Act, which is the second piece which deals with crypto market structure, it's right on the finish line. We actually have a big vote next week in the Senate to see if that legislation is ready to become law.

47:34We've been meeting with both sides of the aisle for many years on this. There's hundreds of pages of compromises. The banks are many banks have come out and endorsed it, law enforcement groups, the crypto companies. And it's good for America, good for the consumers.

47:48Ed Ludlow:Today's big number,$23 billion. That's how much Elon Musk boring companies valued at after raising$3 billion in its latest funding round from the UAE and affiliated investment entities. That's after slow progress over the last decade in realizing Musk's vision for a series of ultra-fast underground hyperloops. Bloomberg's Kyle Porter joins us with the details. Let's go into the round. Quite a big raise, interesting valuation. Yeah, on both counts. It's quadruple what they got valued at in their last fundraising round. And it comes along with a new anchor investor and an incredibly ambitious plan.

48:23Ed Ludlow:You've done a big take on Boring this year. Like, where are they at? You know, the idea was, by the way, Boring Co. bores tunnels and those tunnels get used for things. But are there actually any of them out there in the world? There is an active unit you can go on in Las Vegas. They started in 2019. The eventual plan is for a, I believe, 60 mile network with a series of interconnected tunnels. They currently have 10 tunnels operational. I believe it's about 11 miles. And the original completion date of 2027 for a complete network certainly seems very unlikely. They're also boring down in Nashville.

48:58They agreed that last year. The original plan was that that 10-mile Music City loop would be completed by 2027. I'm being told by sources that is a little bit unrealistic. And then they've struck a memorandum of the standing with the Emirate of Dubai. And they also offered a few free projects in two U.S. cities, one in Louisiana and the other in Texas.

49:25Ed Ludlow:Very quickly, do we have any sense of how involved Elon Musk is in the company? He defers on borrowing a lot more than he does in his other companies. He has a very well-established team in place there. He's talked about it a lot less recently compared to a lot of his other endeavors. He was certainly very, very involved at the start when he was living in Los Angeles and frustrated with the traffic. Bloomberg's Kyle Porter on the big round that Boring Co just did. Thank you very much indeed. That does it for this edition of Bloomberg Tech. A lot going on in markets. There's a lot of news in the world of technology as well.

49:58Ed Ludlow:Recap it on the podcast, which you can find on the Bloomberg Terminal, as well as online on Apple, Spotify and iHeart. It's Thursday. One more day to go in the week. Thanks for being with us. This is Bloomberg Tech.

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