How Athletes Have Created the Next Generation of Media Companies | Boardroom x All the Smoke Productions

25:44Because a video is a total different animal and a total different audience in a lot of ways. And then to now be able to start doing things like you're doing on the boxing space and the football space says a lot to kind of the vision that you guys had. And I think in some ways, that's actually the model, right? So like creating your own show, I think is in some ways very easy and attainable for every athlete. And I'm not knocking every athlete for wanting it or trying, but there's a home for almost every athlete that wants to have a show, if not just from their own social media. So you can get confused at times about the difference between what you're looking at right so when we were younger if a show was on a major broadcaster you knew that they sold their show and they got their show made now all you have to do is have a graphic and call that shit your show and put that out and all of a sudden to the layman you're being grouped in yeah with everybody yeah but i think what you guys have done needs to be highlighted more because i think what you guys have done is actually like in every way embodying of new media.

26:50And for me, as we built our business, I took a strong look at what other people were good at and not always, and I wonder if you can relate to this. Sometimes I see what other people do and it's not, oh, I need to do that. It's I actually can't do that. Right. So let me not even try to do that. Let me acknowledge how great that is. But that opens up my mind to what it is that I think I can do well. And I think that like, there's a difference between building a brand and building a hit show. Um, you guys have done both and there's a lot of hit shows as well that don't have a brand extension or community.

27:26Um, so, you know, as we've built our brand, I really took, uh, a lot of inspiration from seeing what athletes were doing and realized that that actually was what our brand was. It was creating a home and a destination to be able to get deep into what athletes and artists and the community around sport and entertainment culture was doing to now become the most influential in the business landscape. Yeah, I mean, absolutely. And it was, again, it's been a fun journey of just kind of trial and error and again, being inspired by each other. You know what I mean? always really looked up to what you guys are doing and what million dollars worth of game and the pivot and what Gilbert Arenas has been able to do, what Draymond as a current player and PG as a current player have been able to do.

28:15And, you know, a lot of people would say that, you know, this is a crowded space and it's oversaturated, but I always feel like the cream's going to rise to the top. I mean, if you're good at this shit, they're going to find you and people are going to speak on you and you're going to build your fan base. But I don't look at anybody in this space at all, to be honest with you, as competition, one on a show level, but the two, just being able to bring everything else from the show level because we all have our own journeys and different experiences. And, you know, I was a 15-year journeyman, you know, I played on seven teams and, you know, was able to play with some of the greatest players in the world.

28:49And that's my journey. Jack had a crazy journey. Kevin, when he decides to sit down and talk, his journey of one of the greatest players of all time, Draymond's journey of, you know, kind of the underdog to being one of, you know, the maybe, arguably the greatest role player of all time. All the, and Paul George is talking from a superstar perspective of this next generation where everyone loved, you know, these young kids modeled their game after him. So I just feel like there's so many different lanes and journeys that, you know, although it may be comped competition, people look at it as competition.

29:21I look at it as just a shift in media and, you know, there's 31 flavors out there, you know, whatever your flavor may be. I mean, There's a lot of shows that I like and guys that I like that are doing this. And if I'm a fan, because I'm a fan of the game now, I'm not a player no more. I'm thinking like as much as I love the Stephen A's and the Skips and all these other guys, like I want to talk and hear from someone who did it. You know what I mean? Like what does it really feel like to be out there and do it? And I think that's why, you know, there's obviously so many sports pods popping up. But why the good ones last is because, you know, like I want to hear from the horse's mouth how it is you know so when you're able to accomplish that that's a great thing but you know as you mentioned we've been able to kind of take that to the next level and build a real brand and and brand awareness and you know we're recognized now as all the smoke you know what I mean it's it's almost you know some people some of these younger people may not even know we really did anything in the NBA you know we're known as you know these guys that are hosting this show now so So to be able to, one, make this, create it, and almost be a blueprint for some of these people.

30:29Again, we weren't the first, but I think we were the first that really made noise in this space. And to show everyone that it is attainable. Because if you look, as Kobe said, Kobe, you two? I would have never thought you two would do this shit. You know what I mean? But I almost feel like Jack and I are blue-collar guys. And if shit, if we can build this, you know, hopefully it inspires other people to kind of find out what they're good at and to be able to build theirs. Yeah. But, you know, you mentioned a lot of athletes. And while I am supportive of every athlete and anybody that wants to use their voice, that is the gift of social media in the digital age.

31:05There's a lot of curses that have come from it, but there are incredible gifts. And obviously, I think that everybody should have the platform. but everybody is not good at it right like and i think that it has to be acknowledged that like there is a lot of saturation which is cool but there are people that are legitimately good at it right so the idea that you and and and jack have been able to do this is a testament to being really good at it michael strahan is one of the biggest stars on television not because he just had the outlet because he's legitimately good at it right we were just talking off air about like a player from a long time ago you look at howie long the ex-football player on fox been on fox for 30 years and this was before anybody had the outlet to be able to just say that they're on television or they're a media personality so he obviously had to go through a bit of a process in which people acknowledge that he would be really good at it right there's some athletes that surprised me like i think paul george is incredible i don't know him very well but if you would ask me prior like you think paul george is going to be a great host or media personality i I never would have saw that.

32:11You would have had nothing to base it off of. You know what I mean? Because he's someone who's kind of close to the vest. You know what I mean? I knew that Draymond had something to hear him talk shit on the court and then to find out how intelligent he was. Like some people you can say like, okay, he's got it. But I would agree with you. Like who would have known that Paul was going to be good at it? And I mean, I love it. I love it. I love current players doing it. You know what I mean? It wasn't happening while we were playing, But, you know, the way Draymond was able to, you know, capture everything in the finals against the Celtics where some shit went down and he didn't talk to the media.

32:44He went and put it on his platform. So if you really want to hear what it's like, you've got to come here. And, you know, he was the one that kind of coined this new media. And it's definitely a different space now. And I feel like there will always be the big engines, the ESPNs and the Foxes now, but you don't necessarily need them to get your point across to be heard or go viral anymore. And I feel like the people who are kind of the, I wouldn't call them old media, but just traditional media, some of them are panicking. You know, we work with Dan Levitard and, you know, he told us, you know, the transition for athletes coming into space rubbed some of his colleagues.

33:20And, you know, whether they didn't like it or had some shit to talk or whatever, kind of made them tighten their game up. Because, you know, who wouldn't want to hear directly from an athlete if he's able to articulate his feelings? So I think the guys from the traditional media that are still in the space and doing well are kind of like the guys that have to have these big, outlandish, wild takes now. You know what I mean? To kind of like, well, what am I going to bring to the table to be able to compete against Paul George, who is one of the greatest players in the game right now? If I'm just a regular media member, how can I compete against him?

33:52So I think it's the loud, the outlandish, the crazy takes, more of kind of an entertainment take instead of like an actual I want to come and get my information about sports take. You know, it's funny you talk again, old media, new media, but old media wouldn't categorize themselves as old media. Right. And they they may have some linear distribution still, but they're thinking about innovating. And a lot of times when I have conversations, I'm sure it's the same for you. they'll talk a little bit about what they're trying to accomplish. And I'll be in a conversation with the head of a media network, and I'm sitting there thinking, you're just telling me everything that I do.

34:28So why are we not working together? Why is it not okay for you to acknowledge that maybe you actually can't accomplish the impact that I believe we've had with Boardroom or that you've had with all the smoke to then say, you know what, we're not going to try to just recreate it. I had a conversation with a network the other day who said to me, thinking about going into this world of sports and business and culture and trying to figure out that intersection. I'm like, the nerve of you to tell me this. Like, you know that I spent the last five years building this. That's where I'm sitting at. And you're thinking about it because of, personally, in my opinion, how relevant we've made that conversation.

35:00So why are you not just locking arms? Is it because, you know, you see this still as KD's platform? Is it because, you know, what we've built is thought of as independent and non-traditional? But I do think the sooner that, let's call it old media, acknowledges that. Like, why is somebody not at this point saying, you know what, all the smoke needs to be on Netflix. All smoke needs to be licensed on Amazon. Now, all of a sudden, instead of us trying to figure out how to create that show, let us partner with that world. And I think that the thing that also confuses me when you think about how to delineate those two things is there's a lot of non-truth, period, right?

35:36Non-truth exists in our world in every way. Athletes had these narratives that were created about them, sometimes based in some truth, There's some truth to certain things, but it became a narrative that a voice decided to be loud about and all of a sudden has real life implications. I wonder if sometimes like the challenge with let's call it old and new media is that in a lot of ways, old media can still operate on a source and can still operate on an opinion that in a lot of ways then becomes reality. Whereas I would never do that. Right. Like there's like a company line across the board. Like we're not going to criticize anybody.

36:17That's not compromising journalistic integrity. That's just not what I'm trying to build or what I'm trying to do. We can be brutally honest. We can curate what it is we want to discuss and talk about with our business. But I'm not going to challenge somebody. There's just no there's too much of that. Right. I don't see the space for us in that world. Do you think that the non-truth, let's call it, or the source or the narrative or any of that that's been so present in sports media is officially broken? Like we've been talking about it forever. So I don't want to be sitting here sounding like we're complaining about people that I think are very talented.

36:53I think you're still going to get it, but I think there's ways to dispel it now. You know what I mean? Those bigger voices. And like you said, this is no knock on anybody. A lot of there's a lot of great media members and people who've never played in this league that are great at their job. Absolutely. But I think the days of it being the gospel and it being if he said it, it's the truth. I think those days are over. And I think that's good because, like you said, people get a snapshot of us two and a half hours a day. You know, I was someone who was probably one of the most misunderstood people in this game.

37:24The reputation I earned, whether good or bad, I earned it. You know, and there was shit I had to do to survive in this league, but it wasn't who I was as a person. And there was a huge, like I said, when I got in this business or post business and I'm post career and I'm in business, people are like, oh, shit, like kind of, you know, pleasantly surprised about who I really am. You know, so, you know, you let the league tell it at the time. And like I said, I had earned some of it, but I was a gangbanger. I was a thug. I wanted to fight. I slapped people. I did this. I did that. You know, I was a competitor.

37:52You know what I mean? So, like I said, some of that was earned, but it wasn't the entire. It wasn't who I was. So I think now that we live in a day where you can run to your phone, you can run to your platform, you can run to your homeboy's platform. And, you know, so-and-so said this and that shit is not true. This is actually what happened. And I think people do appreciate that, you know, learning the choice. I mean, there's such a blurred line in life now where facts don't really matter for some reason. You know, some people say it is the truth. You know, some people say it's a lie. You know what I mean?

38:22So it's just like it's hard to decipher at times. But, you know, you know, until you show me different, I'm going to give you the opportunity to explain to me whatever you feel like you need to explain. So I'm definitely glad we have transitioned out of that. And and and, you know, anything you really need to find out or anything that an athlete really needs to get off his chest can be done in a safe space and and and done well. Transiting to what you guys have built, I've been a huge fan of you as an individual. When I got a chance to meet you, I don't know how long ago, maybe eight, ten years ago.

38:56And then obviously Kevin as a player. And it's really hard for players to trust outside people. Shit, my financial advisor and tax guy just went down for fraud and left me with a hefty bill. You know what I mean? So people you really try to confide in and put trust in. It's just hard to really, because we have so much other shit going on. We want to really know that, man, if I'm trusting this person, I'm trusting him. So there's been so many bridges burned. How do you feel? What did you feel like you did? Or how was your guys' friendship built to where, you know, Jack and I are like this and you and Kevin are like this?

39:34How did that brotherhood bond, how was that built before it transitioned into business? Yeah, I mean, it's funny. because I've talked about this, you know, because people love Kevin. They love to understand our relationship. And it's actually, I tried to challenge myself to think deeper into, like, why, right? Because I'm really, as I said earlier, fascinated by some of these incredible partnerships. Like, Jimmy Iovine and Dr. Dre have always fascinated me, right? That incredible trust and success that they've accomplished together. And when I've had the good fortune of being around Jimmy over the last few years, and I've asked a question here or there, there's nothing that's changed about that connection.

40:15Like even with all of their success, it's not like they dapped each other up and were like, all right, you go back to your world. I go back to my world. Like that relationship is so true. I think a lot of it at the end of the day, there's parts of it that was just that we got along, right? Like you have to be able to just get along with someone. So in the early days when I met him through Wale, it was just like we could talk hoop. And I was enamored by his like position. You know, like when I first met him, he was KD at Texas or he had just won Rookie of the Year. So like as an 18, 19 year old, even though he was young, for me being 10 years old and him, I already saw him as like the guy.

40:50So I was already like, man, I want to connect with this dude. And then we could talk music and talk basketball. So that like was like the laying the groundwork for what could be a friendship. What I actually think it's really based off of now when I think about it and I think about how people should approach athletes. And sometimes when I say certain things like this for my platform, people write in the comments like, yeah, that's just a rich white guy saying that. Right. But the truth is, I'm absolutely not motivated by money. I'm completely unmotivated by money. That is the truth. I have compromised money my whole career to do what I thought was cool or what I thought was dope or what made me comfortable.

41:30Or if somebody in the room gave me bad energy, I'm just like, I don't even need it. I just don't need it. Part of it is because I knew I could be successful. I had a belief in myself. So it wasn't like I had to grab a check. And I think that for athletes, when they come into this world, it is overwhelming. And there are people that are talking to them that change up how they talk to them at such a young age. And now it's worse because of NIL. But you're all of a sudden being asked things that you don't want to talk about at that point in your life. You are really focused on becoming a professional athlete or being a 19-year-old or a 20-year-old or a 22-year-old.

42:06And I think Kevin could tell very quickly that I just wasn't motivated by money, that what I was motivated by was doing right by him. And it's as simple as that. And it might sound too simple for some people, but I believe that it's not as prevalent in most people. I actually only cared about what it was he was trying to accomplish, how I could be a part of it, how we could both benefit. That doesn't mean money. I wanted to grow my career. I wanted to experience new things. I wanted to be in more worlds. That's what really inspired me. And I think it was that. I think Kevin could trust somebody that he knew all of a sudden was not there for the money.

42:47Was it a certain deal or idea that really brought you guys together on your first business opportunity? No, well, we worked together in a real traditional like agent relationship at first. And I had been a music manager for 10, 12 years. And there's something different about managing artists and music because it's not based around a season. It's not based around like a shoe deal or an appearance. It's based around like I'm here to build your career. And artists have this like ongoing pursuit of like they're creating music. They want people to they want to build their fan base. They want to be able to tour and get out in the world.

43:26And they're challenged by like a stop in the creative process where they can't figure out what they want to do or they see another artist that is more successful than them. So it becomes a full time job if you want to be that type of manager. So I was all in. And that meant that if somebody didn't want to do something, I couldn't sit there and go, you have to do this. Like you have to do this. There's some things you have to do. But I never really subscribed to like, you have to do this because I'm like, this is your art. Like, this is your project. Like, you should do it. That's my opinion. This would be good for your career.

44:01I think it's a good check. But this idea of you have to do this was the way that people communicated. communicated. And I realized that when I started working with Kevin, he had that ingrained in his mind already. Like we were on a set of a commercial shoot and he'd be like, man, I got to go say this, this and this, and I'm going to be this, like the jolly green giant talking into a tree house. I'm like, you don't have to. And he was like, what you mean? I don't have to. I'm like, you really don't have to. Like we should talk to the director and tell him you're not comfortable saying this line.

44:30And I realized there was this like major disconnect from thinking that like, if I'm in the league now. My role is like to do a handful of commercials. I'm going to get my face out there. I'm going to collect some money. I got to show up here. NBA says I got to do this. And don't get me wrong. You do have to check certain boxes. I have also now grown even further into realizing some of it is just what it is. And you have to do some certain things that just are what they are. You can't challenge the system completely. But I think in the beginning, it was not a deal. It was more of like word I don't have to do this shit giving them a different way to look at stuff yeah I like that I think what I appreciate um you know as as you kind of explain how things are coming together you know I can tell you're appreciative of the opportunity to not one get to know Kev better but work with him but when I hear Kev talk about you it's the same appreciation and respect for your journey, your vision, and what you believe in.

45:30And I think that's so important along this way. I mean, powerful duels, you mentioned Jimmy and Dre. It's just, it's never, it's not always a perfect ride, but it's a real ride. And I feel like you guys can tell each other anything and you guys trust each other with your life. And that's how the foundation of being able to build anything else starts. So I definitely wanted to touch on that and appreciate that. But 35 Ventures. The investment game is something I've been trying to learn and study and be a part of. I've always put my own money in, but I'm finally getting to the point now where it's understanding the other way.

46:08But tell me how that came about and what your guys' portfolio is looking like. Yeah, well, I'll give you a little secret into my thinking around 35 Ventures that I've really now started to have to explain more because of how big boardroom's gotten, which was that when Kevin and I went on our own, I knew that I wanted to build something and be entrepreneurial. You know, before I went to work in the agency business, I was just an entrepreneur hustling. I managed DJs. I was consulting for nightclubs in Vegas. I managed artists and producers and I did well. I had a studio in Soho with Mark Ronson, who was as big of a producer and DJ at the time, still is.

46:51And I didn't really know what I wanted to have, but I knew that like, I was really impressed by the state of the music industry in the 90s and early 2000s, where these brands became like a way of life. And I knew ultimately I wanted to have a brand. So the storytelling around those businesses were everything. It was as much of how they told the story of who they were as who they were and what they were doing. So when we went on our own, I didn't want to go and create what that venture or that business was going to be until I did what my real job was, which was to make sure Kevin's life is straight.

47:29Because in order for me to go and build what boardroom would become, Kevin had to feel completely at ease with his own business infrastructure. He had to understand what he wanted and feel confident enough that I could do both. And so much so that when I was hesitating a bit, he started to give me a push. Like, it's your time to go, right? Like, go. Like, go build this shit. I don't need to talk. You know him. He's like, I don't need to talk. Go do you. Be you. Talk the way you talk when we're in the house out in the world. Go be you. And that last bit of a push really got me to going like, all right, like now this is my shot.

48:04This is my time. So when we were in the Bay, it was about like making sure his Nike relationship was intact, making sure that we kind of put this vision behind his philanthropic dreams long term. And also just making sure like money is right, like the right lawyers in the place, things that people don't realize are really part of the operation. Because if that's in place, like you talked about your business manager and what you have to deal with, if that's in place, then you got nothing to worry about. So we spent the first years doing that and we started getting a lot of access to deals in Silicon Valley.

48:36You were out there at that time, too. It was an incredible three, four year run where like some of the most powerful people in the world were at Oracle for these games. And I'm repping Kevin and I'm like, I'm an idiot if I don't figure out how to create some connectivity here. So as we started to do that and as we started to meet great people and get ourselves in great deals, what I realized was that the storytelling in the world was so important because social media was taking shape. and you saw how incredible like LeBron, Mav, Rich and Randy's business was, but also how incredible the story was and what people were seeing about what they were building.

49:14And it kind of begets the other. So I needed to tell a story about what we were doing for Kevin's life before Boardroom was built. Because if not, I didn't think we were going to have the space or the time or that people were going to see us in that light. So everyone would come up to me and be like, yo, how's your fund going? Or like, when are you launching your next fund? And I would say This is not really a fund. The ventures meant all this shit we're doing are our ventures. That's what this is. So we invested in incredible companies. And we were able to get allocations in some great businesses and be alongside some great venture capitalists and private equity.

49:50But we were never operating as a fund. 35 Ventures was really Kevin's family office. But I created a story around it so people could take us seriously and understand that what we were building was real and that we were entrepreneurial in our thought process. It gave us a bit of like a head start then into building boardroom. Because then what I did realize was as we started to get more and more interest, if a brand came to us or YouTube came to us or another company came to us and said, man, we want to be down with 35 Ventures. And I'd be like, this is just Kevin's family office. Like, there's no way to get down with this.

50:23We're not going to make T-shirts of Kevin's family office. So it was really like in the back of my mind to figure out what is this business now that we're going to create that really represents who we are and that can stand next to 35 entries. And that's really then when boardroom came about. So if I were to say boardroom, what is it and why? What are your answers to that? It's a media brand. And media brands to me in this day and age have a storytelling component. They have an experiential component. They can create product that represents what their brand is. They create moments that represent what their brand is.

50:55It's a story that we tell. And it's a story that we tell around this world that I've been fortunate enough to live in over the last 20, 25 years. And I think over the last five years, the world of sports and entertainment and the culture around it and the business around it has become more compelling and influential than almost anything in society. So we created a brand that represents that. And I want to work and align ourselves with all the great entrepreneurs, all the great athletes and artists that are building business, that are building brands for themselves. And I want people to trust us, you know, the way that like we grew up trusting Forbes or we trusted Vanity Fair or ESPN.

51:31And we tried to build a brand, but we didn't have to do it in the same way that other companies had built media in the past. And what I realized was if we were consistent and we showed up at the right places and we told the honest right story and we were complimentary to the people that were creating magic in this world and not try to compete or not try to like take everything that was ours, that we would find our niche and we would find our place. And that's why we can do an episode together or why I can have Rich Paul on the cover of our digital magazine, because I'm here to work alongside everybody in this world.

52:06I'm a fan and I learn from everybody. And our brand is just that. And what's beautiful is now that we've created a consistent storytelling voice and we consistently showed up and created moments in the physical over and over again that people want to be at. Now it's like, okay, what more can boardroom be? And that's the exciting place that we're in right now. It's like, I feel really good that this brand has resonated, that people fuck with it, that people acknowledge it as credible, that there's a level of like credential that you get from being acknowledged on it. And now I have to just keep building it.

52:37What we don't have is a show that has a massive audience like you guys have built. So in a lot of ways, you're building your brand off the heels of this massive show that you guys built. We just built the brand. And we've consistently told great stories, but no one story, no one comes up to me and goes, I absolutely love this. They just say, I love boardroom. And that to me is exciting because that's like, in a lot of ways, those publications that you grew up on trusting or that read and digest and get your information from, it was never one thing. You might've liked the writer, you liked the show that they did, or you heard about the Vanity Fair party.

53:13So we're just trying to create a brand that's trusted, that can work alongside everybody in this space. Why building this brand? Did you guys go out and raise money for it? I tried. I mean, we raised a little bit of money from some friends and family or angels, right? Like they're actually not friends or family. So I don't know why people always say that, But no, because what happened was in the beginning, when we started to do it, we were raising at this point where everyone was like, oh, shit, that old digital media model doesn't work. So when I was going in there, what I was trying to say to people was I'm building a brand that's going to resonate on all types of levels.

53:49But this is how we're getting there. And what happens when you're raising money is you can't always sell the dream, right? Some of it is just the hard facts. It's got to be built, yeah. And the hard facts were like we were just building a digital media brand and it was so early. So the terms of what we could have gotten, fundraising would have been detrimental to us or it would have been the wrong money. And because we were successful in 35 Ventures, it gave us a little bit of a leeway to say, all right, well, we can build this. Like I can, like you said, with DraftKings, like I can bring sponsors in.

54:19I can be creative with how we get this off the ground. I licensed 12 shows to ESPN. That gave us money to help build the business. but we really didn't have the benefit of like an early private equity or venture going all in. It ended up being the best thing that ever happened to us. Because now I look around at so many other people that have these insane cap tables and they don't have the impact we have, or they don't have the audience we have. And now all of a sudden what's attractive to big private equity is impact, is profitability, is sustained growth. And that we've been able to do because we didn't need to keep up with anything or catch up with anybody or meet a certain standard that our investors wanted us to get to.

54:59And we just keep building month over month. And when I would sit in meetings and say, this is the brand I want to be like, all of a sudden it dawned on me one day, every brand I'm mentioning is a hundred years old. So I'm thinking I'm going to do this shit in four years or five years and sell this. And I'm like, I'm in my mid forties. Like I'm not trying to like get a quick buck and get out. Like I want to do this. I want somebody, I would rather make less money and have somebody point to this in 30 years and go, yo, you know who started that business? That dude, Rich Kleiman. And even if two, three other people make more money from that business one day than I did, I'm still cool with that.

55:34Because the idea of building something that's sustained is my only goal. And I really think we benefited from not having the interest that people could have had in investing in us in the long run. Absolutely. What have you learned about yourself on this journey? That I'm good. Talk that shit. No, honestly, because coming up in the business, like, you know, I had so much access early on in my life. I knew how to get into rooms really well. I could hustle. So like at 18, 19, 20 years old, I'm around future NBA players or some of the biggest up and coming artists in New York city. And I'm in the right parties and I could always get around that space, but I couldn't figure out why I like, damn, but I couldn't figure out the success part of it.

56:14Right. So it's like I could always get to the next room and I could always be around cool shit. I was always around dope shit. The greatest artists were in me and Mark's studio. But somehow like Mark was winning Grammys off of it. And I was like, damn, I'm just in the studio. Like, what am I doing? Like people are giving me a job here, a consulting check here. But I couldn't figure out if I was going to be able to really become successful. then all of a sudden like when i started getting around even more and more powerful people i said well let me just watch like because what people don't realize is like that idea of like a mentor like someone that puts your their arm around you is really rare i don't have like nobody's really whenever someone says to me like who put their arm around you and gave you game i'm like nobody honestly nobody really took it upon themselves to give me game but i took it as a blessing to be in these rooms and said, that's the game.

57:04Like the game is just to watch this shit. And if I can't figure it out, then that's on me. So I think over the last like four or five years, what this has helped me realize is like, no, I'm good. Like I'm really good at this. And all these journeys that I took and all those experiences were actually the education that I needed to figure out that I was good at it. You know what I'm saying? And that I got out of my mind that it had to happen in your twenties or in your thirties, right? Like that's where I laid the groundwork for what I then realized was I could be good at. It's a marathon. Two-part question.

57:36What are you most proud of thus far that you guys have built? And what is the ultimate goal of Boardroom? Most proud of the amount of time Kevin and I have been partners and the idea that our partnership is as strong as ever now. And we've changed. I have older kids now. He lives in Phoenix. I live in New York. Our whole business is in New York. I can't travel to his games the way I used to. but our relationship and our partnership is as strong as ever like his mother is like a second mother to me you know his family I don't differentiate from my family and it's a beautiful thing to be a part of something like that to feel such reward from helping build the Durant Family Foundation and some of the things that he's been able to do with Texas and some of the things that he's building for himself just the other day I went to his house and kind of walked him through like his portfolio and there's so much pride in that so I take so much pride in that relationship Because without that, I couldn't have built boardroom.

58:31And for boardroom, you know, for me, as to what I said earlier, is to build something that can sustain. I don't want someone to say, yo, whatever happened to that cool little gram? Whatever happened to that boardroom platform? I want this thing to sustain. I think that is like the ultimate win. Can you be around for a long ass time? And that's what I want to do. Kevin is someone who's been around the NBA for a long time. You know, three, four more years, maybe. Have you guys started discussing what that transition to life after basketball looks like for him? Yeah, not as concrete as like, what are you going to do after you play?

59:04But we've very strategically lined up avenues in which he could go, things that he can be a part of. I think he feels strongly about the idea that he will retire with a great wealth. You know, he's been very fortunate. He's got great investments. He's got an incredible lifetime relationship with Nike. He's got his Team Durant AAU program, which he feels so connected to. Which we beat you in Peach Jam. You weren't there, but my twins wanted to talk shit to you because you were talking shit to them last time you beat them, but we've got you guys. You're right, guys. You're right. I can't say anything, but we'll be back.

59:40We'll be back. I know Kevin's pops was feeling that one. He's vowing revenge. But I think for me, I think when he thinks about it, he will never be far away from the game of basketball. Like, I don't know if he wants to do this, but I actually, and this may surprise people, I think he'd be an incredible commentator, play by play. His IQ of the game is off the charts. He's like sick with it. Like the way he watches the videos and studies. I think people would be surprised by that. And I'm hoping that there's this change in how sports media operates by the time he retires. Because it's unfortunate and fortunate that JJ went to coach the Lakers so they can't do that show anymore.

1:00:22But it was nice to see LeBron and JJ decide we're going to have a show that talks about basketball at a high level. Right. And I think when I watch football on Sundays, I realize like football has so much more of a focus on just the game without all the other shit. And if basketball can transition back into that world, and I'm hoping that with these new media deals at Amazon and NBC, take some leadership role in going, you know, we don't have to do all the other shit. We don't have to do the show. We don't have to do the clickbaity shit. We could talk about this game because it's that big. And if that is the way the world looks media wise, then I think Kevin could walk into that and be incredible.

1:00:58But you know damn well he's not going to go on TV and start gossiping and talking rumors and shit. So if it still looks like that, then, you know, that might not be for him. Biggest lesson you've learned on this journey through failure? That it's just not that serious. You know what I'm saying? Like, I think I used to catastrophize so many things that happened and then it had a negative impact on every next move that I made. Right. I would show a weakness or I would overreact and show too much emotion or think I had to quickly fix something. I've just learned to pause so much on certain things that happen and then give it a bit of like a perspective.

1:01:35And then you realize that those failures aren't really that crazy. Right. Especially as you start to build a family, the threshold of what's really serious becomes like very clear. Like, is everything OK with my family? Like, I'll figure everything else out. Question I'm actually really interested in, too. You know, although we're both building our verticals in a similar but different space, What is the piece of advice you would give to an athlete transitioning out right now that, like me, I started, luckily you guys started while he was still playing. I started after the fact. What would be a piece of advice you would give an athlete transitioning into this space and interested in this space?

1:02:09Make sure that you're comfortable being completely honest, that you want to commit the time to, like, building something for yourself in the media space. You can't just throw a pot up once a week and do a show. And because you have a big fan base through basketball, that you're going to have a hit show. So I think my advice would just be to decide if you really love it. And if it's something you don't love, figure out the things that you do love. And also that the world is changing once again. And that some of these more traditional businesses that people maybe overlook the last five, six years, things like real estate or the QSR space where people like Junior Bridgman made such a fortune or Shaq made such a fortune are really attainable goals and can build real wealth.

1:02:54I'll flip it to you, though, too, because, you know, you are a professional athlete and somebody that succeeded on the court and succeeded off the court. What do you say or what responsibility do you feel when you get asked from some of these athletes or when you sign somebody to all the smoke to create their own show? You've obviously done it now. What's the advice you give to them? I think creativity and the ability to tell stories are the key. And the last thing I would say is being a trusted voice. You have to earn that trust, just like you have to earn your reps and the respect in the league.

1:03:28You have to earn that trust from your fan base or just culture in general because it is so watered down now. I don't really like to use the word watered down in a disrespectful way, but there's just a lot of different opportunities out there. I tell people like, why are they going to want to listen to you instead of me? You know what I mean? What makes you special? What makes you unique? And stick to that. I think it's okay to pick and choose as you're similar to an athlete. I like what he does. I like what he does. Let me try to make that mine. I think you can still do that in this way. I think you said something important.

1:04:00I saw something over there and I knew I couldn't do that, but let me find out what I'm good at. So, yeah, come in and be original. Don't be a copycat because you'll be sniffed out. But you have to love it. You have to work at it. I mean, it looks easy, but it's the new norm, and it's an actual business. You have to run it as such. So, yeah, that would probably be the advice I'd have to give them. This shit is real, and although we don't compete, it's a competitive space. You know, there's a lot of money out there for everybody, and there's a lot of different brands and partnerships you can align yourself with.

1:04:35But, you know, I'd be a fool if I didn't say, like, I want our shit to be the best, just like you want your shit to be the best. So, you know, anything you want to be good at or great at, you got to work at. So I would just say it takes a lot of time. But if it's something you love, it's worth it. Well, I think this collaboration episode came off exactly how we hope, my brother. Yeah, I appreciate it. I hope we, you know, have more conversations like this with more people. I think one thing I'll say is important because this is a new, what are we, four, five, six years in this. I think the more we talk and the more we collab, the more we learn.

1:05:07and the more we're able to go out and get, like you said, those other opportunities and open other doors for other people. When I started this shit, I never would have thought that I would be looked at as a blueprint on how to do it. I was just trying to figure it out myself, but now I do take pride in people saying, like, man, we started our shit because of you or we did this, you know, so continuing to try to kind of lead the way, but at the same time, I'm learning so much from you. I'm learning so much from Wallow and just the Ryan Clarks and watching Gilbert and, you know, looking at everyone and saying that this space is in a great, you know, that SportsMedia's in a great place, but let's continue to push the envelope and take it to the next level.

1:05:47Without question. Well, this is the first of hopefully many All The Smoke boardroom collaboration. Thank you for tuning in. Subscribe to both our platforms. You know the drill.