The Business of Basketball with CEO & President of VaynerBasketball Bay Frazier

0:01What's up everybody and welcome to another Boardroom out of office and today I'm sitting here with somebody who if you are in the industry, you know well, but if you are a consumer or a fan of the industry, you may not know well, and that has been by design. Please welcome to the show, my friend, Mr. Bay Frazier. Thanks for having me, Rich. Pleasure to be here. Of course, man. And there's a lot of exciting new things in your life, which is why I reached out and wanted to have you on. And I have to be honest, I thought it was 50-50 you would say yes, because even when our staff Googled you and wanted to kind of learn this backstory that I knew just from hearsay and knowing you and Mello, there was so little on you.

0:42And I would imagine that that is what you wanted. You grew up in Baltimore, right? Correct. And were you an athlete as a kid? Yeah, I played all sports, baseball, football, basketball, nothing to go to the next level, but high school, little high school. But you knew early you weren't. I was a diehard. I'm a sports fanatic. Yeah. You know, so. Is be more, like, the way I look at New York City is, like, I want people to know I'm from New York City. You know what I'm saying? Absolutely. And I want people to understand that my personality is, like, defined by where I'm from. Do you feel that way about Baltimore?

1:16Absolutely. Like, Baltimore is that, you know, that gritty. Just a smaller version. Yeah. Like, New York City. Basically, like, one of the boroughs. Just small, but it's a gritty town. I love it. Like, people talk, you know, you hear so much negativity. but I love it. I just go back. My home is still there on the outskirts, but I'm still in the city all the time. I get it. Some people don't get it. Some people, they get first plane smoking out of New York or they grew up in Baltimore and they, hey, mom, when I'm 18, I'm out of here. But I feel like I'm balancing at my best when I'm in my hometown still to this day.

1:56You feel that way still? Exactly, because I moved every place that mellow. I lived in Denver, lived in New York, lived in L.A. for a second, Houston for a second, Oklahoma City. So I've seen everything, you know, moving around and always came back. I kept my home there. Yeah. When did you meet Melo? I've been knowing Melo since he was about 10, like youth basketball, watching him play. And then we actually got close when he was 15. It's a spot called the Dome, Madison Dome, where everybody played. I took him over there to play. There's another kid by the name of LaFonte Johnson that I was like a mentor to that was actually committed to UNLV.

2:39And at the time, Bill Baino was the coach, and he wanted to see Melo. So I brought Melo over as a 15-year-old. He came to play, and when I picked him up from the neighborhood, brought him over from that night on, he was with me. Was he not – was he just like – it was a myth, like people knew this kid could play, but he wasn't in the mix yet? I actually didn't know anything about him at the time. He had a name as a young 'un, but as a young kid, I had a VHS tape of him scoring like 45 points at 10. But nobody really knew at that point what he was going to be. He was six feet, my height as a freshman.

3:15Then he sprouted a sophomore year to like 6 '5". So that was the year when we got kind of close. And what I used to do back home, and Kevin can attest to this, we used to do these Baltimore versus D.C. games. I used to put them together, and it would be like pros, semi-pros, and the younger group would be mellow, and I would have a team. That's how, you know. Yeah. He used to get mad at me because I used to send him to the concession stand for me, stuff like that. He ate that story. But, yeah, that's how we got. We got pretty tight at 15. He didn't leave my side. And where I lived, he was actually going to summer school at the school right down the street.

3:50I could be leaving out of my house, and he'd be coming up the hill. I'm like, what you doing, man? Yeah. You know, I got my own life delayed. He'd be like, no, I'm just – it just popped up. So that's how it was. It was just like him, his backpack, and his ball. And it's funny, you mentioned D.C., B. Moore, and KD. When we did this film on PG County during the pandemic and all the players that came from there, sometimes, like, people in the research or in the director's room would be like, yo, what about this kid? And then someone would be like, no, he's from B. Moore. He ain't from D.C. They get it mixed up.

4:23But is there like a clear delineation of like the type of ball players that came from like PG in the D.C. area as opposed to Baltimore for people that were from there? Absolutely. It's so close, but it's so different. Yeah. Even with the players. Like D.C. is more like more flash, ball handling, shooting, and we just like tough. Yeah. Play hard, can do it all, you know. And it kind of balances out. Because when you say DMV, you can't include Baltimore in that. No, I know. separate yeah so what they say dmv is virginia dc p samaritan county's of dc like pg county it's like sans baltimore though yeah and when you when you met mellow were you are you good deal older than him or what's like the age difference like 10 so did you feel like he he needed you know because kd had that same type person like for him that was like if i don't reach out like this may not go exactly where it's supposed to go did you feel some of that responsibility seeing him At the time, it wasn't really a lot of pressure, but his neighborhood, I'm from East Baltimore.

5:27He's from West. So he grew up right by the Murphy Homes projects that they tore down. He lived right there where the wire was shown, like right there. So it's like he felt the pressure of his neighborhood. So, you know, he wanted to get out. So me picking him up, having him with me all day was just a relief from him having to go back around there to deal with that stuff. You know, so that's what it was. So because the wire, obviously, for people outside of Baltimore, like, again, it's always split. I've heard people talk about like, man, I've been to Baltimore. I don't feel like it's exactly like that.

6:04But it's exactly like that. I wouldn't say like it's pockets like everywhere, like that inner city. Yeah, it's exactly. Of course, they're doing they, you know, redoing the neighborhoods. They tore down most of the high rise projects. So, like, you're right there. You ever been to Harbor East? Like, with the four seasons? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, literally, two blocks over was all projects. Like, where Muggsy Bowes and all them grew up at. Like, that's East Baltimore. Like, but Oreos, Camden Yards, projects. Mellow used to squeegee and sell T-shirts there. So, it's, like, that close to downtown.

6:42But, I mean, it's nice. It's nice. You just got to go to the right spot. Everybody had a different spot. Especially in cities. That's like if you're in a city. I actually just drove by the Upper West Side the other day and like dawned to me again like, oh, here at the Amsterdam Projects, two steps from legitimately the most expensive building in New York City on Central Park West. That's just like hard for people that didn't grow up in the city to understand. And did you want to be in sports like professionally or were you not even thinking about it at that point? I always went. I knew I wasn't going to make it as a player.

7:18So I was always around a guy. Like when I was young at my local recreation center, I used to keep the score for guys like Reggie Lewis and Herman Reed that played at Syracuse. Who else played? There's a lot of guys. And Reggie Lewis from Baltimore? Yeah. Reggie Lewis grew up right around the corner from my grandmother. Damn. In East Baltimore. Yep. He was nice. Nice. And I saw him at the beginning. I was a young kid. I was keeping the stats. Yeah. You know, in the recreation center, traveling. And, like, real quick, I went to, like, our rec and another rec, Cecil Kirk, where all them guys come from, like Rudy Gay, all them guys played at.

7:56We went to see a game. Len Biles was my favorite player of all time at the time. Len Biles played against Reggie Lewis, who was at Northeastern. We took a trip, like, from our rec racing center, had some vans that went over, and we watched that game. It was one of the best games I ever saw. But what was really crazy, I'm in the parking lot walking back to the van, and i see this tall guy like he looked like eight feet at the time it was my new bowl yeah just came over walking with this little lady oh my god he like scared me i'm a little you know kid and i see him like yeah the stories you know and we had no one had seen where manute like this kid victor is incredible to watch but in a lot of ways manute bowl was more like when we first saw him because no one was seven foot six seven foot seven and honestly that dude used to pull up from three Remember that?

8:47Remember that? I think this parade starts shooting three. Pull that shit behind his head. Yeah. Oh, man. So be more hoopers you'll put up against any city? Any city. And we won most of them games when we played D.C. You know, the Urban Coalition in D.C.? It was one Baltimore team that would go over and play all of them. I was a young kid going over on a van with them watching, getting in the game. It was so tough getting in those games. So everybody played over there. That was like the best basketball I've ever seen. Did KD and Mello have any epic high school battles? No, they're like four years apart.

9:18So, KD came after. But I talked to KD a couple times. Like, he came over and played in a couple places. He would give you a story. Like, you know, when he came over, they almost left the door down. He went to St. Francis Academy. Like, that big game that I did in Baltimore during the lockout with KD, Bron. Yeah, yeah. And that happened from social media, from Twitter. Like, they said the league in D.C. was the best. You know, they had the league in L.A. and Mellow had a great league at his Mellow Center at the time. So we start, like, tweeting. And Katie, like, nah. So the game's supposed to start at the Mellow Center, which only held about a few hundred people.

9:56We did all of this in, like, four days. Then the next day it went to St. Francis Academy, just a little bit bigger. So we had to reach out to Morgan State. Got the game done in, like, three days. It was D.C. – you did D.C. B. Moore? Yep. D.C. B. Moore. And Billy Hunter was the player's union. He had a local restaurant I set up for him to meet with Braun, Mello, CP. Oh, wow. For the game. About the lockout. Yeah. And that game was crazy. It was a moment. It was definitely a moment. You know who randomly told me? I mean, it's probably, I love this guy. I want to preface, I love this guy. And none of our listeners will know him, but you know him.

10:35But C-Bell told me him and Mello had a battle once. Yeah, C-Bell was pretty good. He went to a local school that was about 15 minutes from where I grew up. He went to Loyola for a second. Yeah, he told me. C-Bell was good. He could shoot it. He put them pounds on now. C-Bell is one of KD's best friends and longest friends. Actually, the triangle that me and KD had, we got with Charlie like six, seven, eight years ago or something. But Charlie used to always tell me, like, man, me and Melo had a back and forth one night. And I know the story, like Mello's probably like, wait, what night was that again?

11:11But for C. Bell, that was like the night. Yep, C. Bell was good. So when Mello went into the league and got drafted by Denver, what was kind of the expectation now coming from Baltimore, being that you had held them down, and knowing, and we've talked about this, that like the role of an agent was not what was attractive to you as much as doing what you did, building from a grassroots perspective, building from a management perspective and making sure he was good. I mean, I think everybody in the league always, like, sees you and knows that, like, if there's one relationship in that ecosystem that's, like, unbreakable, that you always have this man's back and vice versa, it's you and Melo.

11:51Was that all the expectation was when he went pro? Or did you feel like, all right, cool, what are we doing now? Like, what are we building? Yeah, I kind of, you know, loyalty is our biggest gift amongst both of us. Like, nothing can break us up. We're loyal to each other. But going into the draft, like I prepared. You know, at that moment, I didn't really know what was going to happen. Coaches just started coming up to me like, you the guy. Like, we need to talk to you. Started with Troy Weave at Syracuse. So, you know, I kind of fell into that position. He wanted me to handle these things for him.

12:23I had experience because my peers were like Michael Lloyd, McDonald's All-American, you know, Keith Booth, Dante Bright, Like those guys that, you know, around my age that I used to hang with, they were my boys. And I met Bill Duffy because he was Michael Lloyd's agent back then. And I didn't really know too much about the business business. So I actually got a job at a law firm through a guy. You know, a guy named Mike Anderson. He played at Maryland. He played football and basketball. He had leukemia. Remember that leukemia? Yeah, I know he is. So he introduced me to my attorney at the time, and I started working there.

13:03Like, you know, learning a business, putting this whole thing together. Like, you know, I created Mellow Enterprises, which I'm a part of, and Frazier Management. Built those out, had them up and running right before the draft. Like, everything prepared, and I had a relationship with Bill Duffy. So I remember going to Duff, did an all-star game in D.C. Yao Ming was coming over. I'm trying to tell Duff about Mellow. Oh, about Melo. Well, he's the only thing he learned about is, you know, is Yao Ming coming over. And, you know, that was about right at the time. He was right, but he should have paid attention to Melo too.

13:37He didn't. Nobody really knew at the time, but Sonny Bacall, and I got to mention his name, he was an inspiration because he helped me along the way with all of this. Did you see air? Yeah, absolutely. So good. Great. Yeah, because Sonny was my guy. He kind of helped me along the way and put me in certain positions. is all about relationships, meeting certain people. And I kind of piggybacked that on, built it out. So I never wanted to be an agent, like I said. And me being his manager, making sure things, he was young, his mom wanted me to be with him. You know what I mean? So, and at the time, I only had a son.

14:13You know, so that was big. And Melo, he was along the ride with us as well. And you were like, I'm taking this journey. Yep. Yep. And that's crazy. You went to like from where you went and next thing you know, you're working at a law firm starting companies. And I talk about that a lot as I look at my career is the power of sports and like to think about like how quickly it was the relationship before him a mellow. And then you find yourself, you know, in the NBA and working with him in the NBA. Were you shocked at a little bit of how the industry was back then in terms of. yeah back then it was about agents there was no like you know Mav and Rich and them hadn't built the infrastructure and what you guys had done you hadn't built that infrastructure the model was more traditional and it was like okay we go to the agency and like what's the guy doing next to him and people always trying to break everyone up and getting in everybody's business did you feel like this is not what like I thought this shit was no I kind of you know I was I was kind of grew up in that kind of environment, being from the city.

15:19So I've seen a lot of stuff that I shouldn't see, been around a lot. And it didn't surprise me, I'll say that, because it was similar to what I was coming from, but on a business level. So when the people back then, and it's all coming around, it's like a 360. The same stuff that was happening is just more, you can do more right now, which they should have done back then. But like then it was about the agent, getting with the right agent, but you still had the typical street agents. Yeah, the runners, all that shit. It was more runners back then. Yeah, but there was a stigma on that person as opposed to now that person is powerful.

15:58Powerful, but back then the runner was like a slumber. You know, like you don't want to mess with that. He hustling, he doing this. But, and I didn't want to be labeled that because I only had the relationship with Melo. So I was making sure my guy was right. you know so yeah that word early on like when even when i came over from music to sports if someone was like was you basically a runner like like the record stops yeah you don't want to be called a runner man and now though i understand now i understand that that role is actually like powerful because there's a pure there's like a true disconnect and that's why these new models have been created because athletes are too smart they're too astute as businessmen and women when they're coming into the league because of relationships like you and mellow had when you're younger you get in game and now over time elites and all these different options these kids are so aware that then you come into the league and these agencies know that like how are we really some people can do it but how do we really communicate and understand our the athlete or understand where they've come from and that role went from like runner to like an integral part i see in so many of these operations and now is like a role that i feel like has to be groomed better You know what I'm saying?

17:10I was even listening to Rich Paul on Rap Radar last week and he was talking about like the guy next to the athlete and how important it is for that person to actually take that role as seriously as the athlete takes their role. Hone their skill set, learn, be curious, ask questions. And a lot of what that role is at times is flexing as opposed to actually, you know, working. You know, you got the floor seat, let everybody know you with the guy, but you're not really doing anything. You never did it that way. Like, it always amazed me. Mello's been one of the most famous athletes in the world for the last 15, 20 years.

17:49But unless you know, you would never know. Why? Like, did you, was it always by design? Was there a moment where you were like, yo, let me just fall back? Was it part of just your upbringing and knowing that, like, move in silence? Exactly. People didn't know who you were. And I liked it like that. You know, because where I came from, it was a stigma already. You know, people, you hear the chirps and the whispers of certain things, even with the college recruiting. They'll label you something that you really, because they didn't know me. Yeah. So going into the business, I mean, that's just my demeanor.

18:25I'm a laid back guy. You know, I don't really take no trash and no shit, but I'm laid back until that moment. If I had to step up, I'd step up. It's on. And Mello knows that. So I had his back 100%. And moving into the business, I just kept it going the same way. But when we were in meetings, business meetings, they get it. Like, I had people like, hey, you know, you're kind of intimidating, right? And I'm like, I'm just being myself, you know? So, and, like, going back to, like, the runner and people being in these positions, I remember we were at the Olympics in London 2012. 12, and I was on a bus with C-Bell and them.

19:03You know, and I'm giving them, I'm telling them, like, this is how it should go down, this is what you need to do, this is what's going to happen. You know, I'm giving them advice that I don't really, you know, give out. But, you know, I've been knowing C-Bell, you know. So I let them know what's going to happen, how they should carry it. But a lot of guys, not saying it was C-Bell, a lot of guys that are in those positions, they don't last because they do exactly what you said. They want to be out there, floor seats and moving around. like rich paul maven and all we came into it together i knew them they're still a little younger than me so you know they still my guys but you know i see how they built it i see how they it was great great move so they all my guys you know i get you know we give each other advice we talk about it i just call rich talk to another day yeah they we all tight and randy is my guy yeah well it's definitely things that like you know and i've even i didn't come up with you guys but now i'm on 10 11 years with kevin and there's very few people that you can kind of say yo this is what i'm going through or this is some of the things that i ran into and that you could fully understand and understand all the like complexities right so it's like when someone comes up to you and says in new york like yo man why katie ain't gonna nicks why ain't time to go to the nicks why don't you tell him yeah i guess that was all it was like why don't you just tell him like nah you don't you don't understand you just don't understand you're still reading like the magazines from the 80s and I think that that's what's really important and it's amazing you do that because now you see that that's a viable role like if you grow up with an athlete or not regardless of the fact that's a viable role right to say to yourself like all right I want to get in the industry I want to be close to athletes I can communicate I understand how to be loyal and protective and play my part and learn and be patient and it's amazing that you're talking to to, you know, the younger people in those roles that are looking up to you, because that is what you'll hear.

20:57You'll hear someone be like, yo, I want to be like Bay to Mello or I'm trying to be Rich Paul. And even though it's not as easy as that, it's not like insert friend next to. That's not how it works. It's unequivocally never going to be how it works. It's the opposite. It's harder. It was harder for them to do what they did. Harder for you to do what you did because it was your man. Seriously, it's harder. But that game was never given. There was no game to give. That was actually off limits to talk about. So it's amazing. But it's also like I wouldn't say I was shocked when I heard that you were going to start running Vayner basketball and standing in front of it.

21:37But I was shocked. Not shocked at the fact that you don't have the skill set, but I know you've done well for yourself. You and Mello have seen and done it all, right? Like you've traveled. And I know for me, you know, psychologically, it was always complicated. when I when I left Rock Nation and Kevin and I started our own thing was well I don't know if I can work with other talent again because I'm trying to build businesses and I want to I want to build something that's ours and then you know emotionally what you go through like you couldn't probably even begin to recount what you've gone through with Mellow emotionally and like how much went into it and days where like your kids couldn't even get that same emotion from you because you had to do it for Mellow and then to think about like damn am I really thinking I'm gonna do that again but i imagine you're not ever going to do that again that's not what this was about but what was it that drew you to to being a bit more in front coming to talk to me and doing this with someone like gary v who you know is loud in an amazing way but he's loud yeah so organically it just made sense because of our relationship my relationship with mellow and knowing that you know he's winding down his career so i i thought about it like you know he's you know i'm looking at my next step like what should i do should i still get some kids reach out to me all the time have my own program team mellow basketball but you know after speaking to like of course you know joey joey middleton joey had a conversation with gary i only knew gary through mellow it was nothing personal at the time so but i you know i looked at everything doing COVID.

23:16They did, you know, what's in your glass. Gary was on there. I saw this guy with all this energy. So when Joey came to me with this situation, like, would you be interested? Because Joey, him and I have been trying to do things for the longest. It just didn't. It'll get you the finish line and you might fall before you get over there. So it was one of them situations like Joey, not again. Yeah. You know, so when he brought it to my attention, I said, I spoke to Melo first, like what you think oh you should definitely look into it you know i'm winding down i know you like to be laid back until this this might be the platform for you so i thought about it took me about five days reached back out to joey joey set it up we did a zoom with gary had to do a little bit of investigation on everything and did my research so after speaking to gary and aj was also on the call and them being aj is a little younger guy he's like in my age group his energy yeah like you know his energy then then aj kind of it reminded me a little bit of mellow and myself you get what i'm saying yeah but the total opposite is you know guy with the energy mellow's energy would be him being a basketball player and i'm being bae so that was one of my questions i said Gary, if I can be Bay Frazier, that's my first question.

24:37If I could be Bay Frazier, then I'm cool. Like, we just got to talk through some things. We talked for about ten minutes. And Gary just had – he knew. And then I didn't really know that – my thing is I like to let people talk and feel them out. And he was doing a lot of thinking. Like, you could see, like, as he talked – and I like that. That's what I see in myself. So, once we did that, we had that conversation. We just hit it off. Like Gary was saying his interviews. I wouldn't say it, but he said it. It was like a marriage. You know, like, you know, we vibed. I would say we vibed. We hit it off.

25:14And it was Valentine's Day of all days. So February 14th is the day we, the first Zoom that we actually did. It went well. I got off the phone. I started making calls. Called Mellow again. Called Asani. You know, you know, spoke on everything. What should I do? You're like, this platform, you need to get yourself out there, put your brand out there finally. 20 years, man. You know how mellows. 20, what you doing? Like, come on. Yeah. So I was like, all right. And that's the best feeling, right? Because even though that's your man, he's your little brother, getting that like, yo, go do that from him is powerful.

25:50I still look for it. I mean, I think that's like ultimately the difference in the characteristic between a manager and like an athlete is that like, you know, we are ultimately in the service industry, right? So when you go and get that validation, like when Melo says, no, you got to do this. This is perfect for you. You still need that. That's a battery a little bit. And that situation with Gary and AJ, Greg Genski, they are co-CEOs. They had this thing about them, like it's a lot of freedom. Freedom comes with Big Frazier. I need that freedom. I need to be myself. So AJ is here. You know, Gary is all over the place.

26:30Greg is in Cali with a tan and surfer. He was on the beach. Like, the first time I talked to him, his background, I'm like, oh, okay. You see the waves going up. Yeah, that's your speed. Yeah, so, you know, I like that, that they were free in the way they work. They did their work, and it was compelling to me. Like, I liked everything about it. And the platform. Like, I went to their office in Hudson Yards. I didn't know what I was walking into. Yeah, especially. So, I remember watching, like, Wolf on Wall Street. How crazy it was. I walk into the office like, what the hell is this? He's like, computers up, all these companies.

27:07I'm like. Yeah, and the energy's loud. Energy's crazy. And Gary is, Gary, the one probably little known fact is how much Gary actually knows about basketball. I mean, and I'm not talking about like knowing the players and the stats and being at games because I'm talking about like, you know, people that are wired. They either get it. It's like if you can speak a language or you can't. And then there's levels even within speaking the language, but Gary knows basketball. And then you couple that with the platform and then the uniqueness of it, which is something that I loved. Right. Which was that it would have been cool if you went to one of the bigger agencies.

27:43I still would have thought it was surprising and cool. But that to me was like, OK, this was thought. This was strategy. This is like a perfect balance of skill sets. Like none of the no one in that foursome can do what you do. And none of one in that force can do what Gary does. And I know AJ too. I don't know Greg, but if he's on the beach running the agency, then I like his speed. So those are always the best setups, right? If you went somewhere where you was just competing now with other agents looking to eat and Melo's winding down and you're Melo's guy, like the narrative, which we talked about could have not been the right energy going into this.

28:20And I would imagine for you it's got to be good energy, period, or you're not doing it. Absolutely. It wouldn't have been organic. I had those opportunities years and years. I'm sure, yeah. To go, and I was involved in different companies, of course, because of Mello, but I had those opportunities to do those things that wouldn't have been right. During COVID was one experience that people don't know. I actually sat back and like, you know what, I'm gonna start my own thing. So I came up with a name, talked to a lawyer, Joey was on hand again, and I put it out there and the response I got was great.

28:52But the financial piece You don't understand how much you got to build But I was going full throttle Like football, baseball, and basketball Not just trying to start basketball You were just going after it Everything And then when I reached out to certain people They were with it Like I'm with you Like if we could do this I met with baseball agents that had clients Football guy had clients You know basketball of course was my thing I got people I ain't going to say a name But I can't even speak on that Like, certifications of the NBA and people kind of, once they get to a certain point, they think they're bigger than what they are.