Building LEGOLAND, Madame Tussauds & SEA LIFE: Mark "Fish" Fisher's Story

34:19You can sit in a hut and do nothing, or you can get out and try some stuff. And I think what made us different then, we rigorously follow that up with data. and we researched both qual and quant. I mean, you'd be surprised sometimes. You're convinced the customers are going to like a particular thing. You go and research it and they go, that's rubbish. And you've got to go, oh, I wasn't expecting that sort of thing. But hopefully over time you learn to do less and less of those things. So we had a very, very good in-house research group. But probably at a certain point in time I mean, the most knowledgeable people in the world, in our industry, because they've been doing it for 35 years.

35:03So if you said, tell me about this district in Mexico City, they'd probably be able to just talk to me about it because they'd done some research on it. So listening is important. I had a lot of experts around me. I was never very good at anything, apart from bringing people together to do good stuff. And that was fine because if they succeeded, I succeeded. So it didn't really matter. But I think, yeah, a little bit of good insight, but backed up by hard data and some hard numbers. I mean, we were rigorous on numbers. Well, Blackstone especially would have demanded that anyway, wouldn't they?

35:40You've got no choice. I mean, you go into a board meeting with those guys. If you don't know your numbers, you'll get carved up. Yeah. Quite rightly. It's their money. We're spending their money. Yes. yeah and and so so so as chief development officer what was that what was the biggest highlight for you and what was the biggest sort of low point for you or or actually through the through your entire kind of period in corporate in those roles what was that what was the the highlight for you and what was the low point for you uh let's go the highlight first because let's do the positive i agree positive go for it fish i think i think there's two there's two things i've been asked the question before and um there's two things is i loved setting up merlin magic making because we took nothing yeah and we built something inside something that was built yeah and and we we were i remember i remember doing a conference with all these merlin magic making people around they're all got kind of we didn't wear uniforms but they'd all got uniforms on because they were proud to be part of it and you would stand up there and i and i would put some in those days powerpoint slide up and i would show them a massive new roller coaster in america and i go you guys just built that and then i would show them pictures of the public on it laughing and screaming as families and i would go you guys just produced that and sometimes it's very hard because we were so in it he was trying to get people to step back and say just just look what you've achieved because you don't do that and if you're in a if you're in a dark corner trying to design something or if you've got a pair of steel toe cap boots on in the mud you don't necessarily see the end results all the time so that that was a real tick and then the other one which i thought was quite interesting when somebody asked me is there was a period of time um probably the majority of my career but definitely a period of time probably 10 years every single person that reports to me got promoted and i love that i would just look at It was detrimental to me sometimes because I would lose brilliant people, but it was the right thing for them to go off and do.

37:49And I guess you're a little bit like a proud father when you see that kind of stuff. You see them leaving home, you have a lump in your throat. And it was just really nice to see. And I'm still in touch with a lot of those people now, you know, and I've seen them, you know, when I left, one of the people that I bought into Merlin took over my job and then somebody else that we got took over their job. And we managed to do all these things. We were obsessed a little bit with succession planning. Oh, good. You know, which you can leave behind sometimes. So many people aren't, so many businesses aren't.

38:21You go, what? No, we would have more, probably too many succession planning meetings if it's possible. And the other thing we were really good at is we wouldn't keep people in their lane. So I had a really good HR director in Merlin Magic Making, and we were sat with her trying to recruit a head of wax production, a wax production director, not one that slips off the tongue when you're looking in the job adverts in The Guardian. And then we'd interviewed, I don't know, 10, 15 shortlist people. I went, there's nobody here. And I just flippantly said to her, you could do that. And then, you know, you don't have one of those moments.

38:57I went, you could do that. And she's just spent the last six years doing that brilliantly. Wow. So we would let people move. Yeah. You know, not just geographically, but we let them just move lanes. So we would very often have an accountant that would become an ops director. Fortunately, they never moved me into accountancy because that could have been a bit of a disaster for the business. But yeah, I thought that was really good, just watching people do well. Yeah, yeah. And it's interesting because I think sometimes, I don't know, I've got a follow-on question for you here, but I think sometimes people spot something in, you've spot something in those people, right, that they didn't see themselves that then allowed them to go, oh, I hadn't even thought of that, you know.

39:40And I think that's a beautiful thing. I had a similar experience when I got asked to go to Russia when I was at two and it was like, okay, can you just go to Russia and Ukraine, go and buy three businesses, never done a corporate, set up a JV with one of Russia's most wealthy oligarchs, integrate the businesses, whiten them, rebrand them, do you fancy it, you know? And I was like, oh, Jesus Christ, you know, I hadn't thought of that. But, you know, the gentleman, Richard Prosser, who subsequently became my boss and is now a really great friend and has been such an influence in my life, you know, there are those people.

40:15And it sounds like you spotted talent in people when they never actually saw it themselves. I think that was the thing, was to open people's eyes to the art of the possible. Yes. But the other thing I used to do, I used to carry around as I went around the world. I had a little black book and I would meet people. and by the time I came away there'd be people just in business that we all meet every day and I had a list of people and said these people could work for Merlin and and then several times we would go and I would go I'll give you a good example the um we had a uh the Asian business and we needed to somebody come in and I went I've got somebody I went into my book and there was a there was a lovely lady who was our landlord in Singapore she'd beaten us up so badly as a landlord and and she was surrounded by this team that clearly adored her and i thought you know you've got the ability to be really hard when you need to be but you've also got that soft nurturing side and she came to work for us for a number of years um as our head in asia so he was i always i'm always on the lookout for that even now in the sort of more portfolio roles i'm always on look at is how how can different people be um uh useful both for them and for the business and then it's just about marrying people isn't it in the right places for the right skills yeah first choice used to do that first choice were the fourth in the market when back in the day when you had travel businesses and uh and they were very much the underdog you know compared to the you know the the two is and the thomas cooks of this world at the time and they used to do that very proactively they'd just spot good people did have no job for them and they'd literally just go come and have a chat and that's how i ended up getting my first director role you know and it was just just sort of a really great way of just spotting people and being very proactive about bringing talent in and figuring out what to do with him later sometimes very brave to do that you know there aren't jobs and things but it's really thinking ahead where the business needs to go being able to make those decisions and being brave enough to do it yeah it was it was it was and i'd learned something you know and peter long was the ceo and then kind of went on to become the ceo of tui and stuff great guy but but that approach so so who has spotted talent in you that you didn't realize you had at the time do you think because any standout the obvious person's got to be nick you know because i started as this young sort of scrut um he's got all these sort of stories with me um going for an interview because at the time i was doing an odd job thing so i turned up in a pair of ripped jeans and a jumper because i apologized but i was working um uh so and i think as i said that's grown from a sort of work partnership to a personal partnership of friends so i think the other thing that is just something that people i was never i need to go and do this i was never one of those people that is you you know the i'm so ambitious I need to get to the next level.

43:09I would always ensure that I loved what I was doing. I'd always work hard at it because I like working. And if I loved it, why wouldn't you? And naturally, I think people then go, those are the kind of people that you want in your business and where they want to go to. So if there's some of the messages we're talking to people out there today, I would say don't try too hard sometimes. I think some people try too hard. Just be you. Yeah. And because that's what people want. I mean, in a world of fakeness, people want you to be authentic anyway. So I think Nick as an individual, but then, you know, just luckily, I had lots of good bosses over the years that, you know, I would hope it was symbiotic in that it was good for me and for them.

43:52Yeah, and in a world, you mentioned about, you said before that people have been saying that, you know, gaming would end theme parks and all of that. And, of course, we're in an era of the pace of tech and development and stuff, and obviously AI. How is AI affecting the industry, do you think? I think as an output, it's a little bit less so at the moment. Maybe a customer journey piece on the output. Yes, yeah. But what it is doing, it's starting to craft product because it's much easier to do things now through AI and much quicker. yeah i mean we live in a world of pace don't we we do and and um uh you you can do i mean it's not ai but it's a really good example of years ago um when i was marketing director we'd have a piece of print done and and the piece of print would be done it would be then put onto a sheet and it would be put on a bike and the bike would be brought over to you and it might arrive the next day and you might comment on it and then you get it back on a bike you get it back to the print and this process is four or five days long and then in the advert of sort of um the internet the process became 30 minutes yeah because you were emailed it you've got 30 seconds to comment on it and send it back and ai is doing the same thing uh and i think personally i know there's some people very anti-ai i think as a as an enhancement tool it can be really good um but i I don't think it is a replacement tool as much as I know.

45:23Am I an expert in AI? No. But I think it's an enhancement tool. If it can make things better, that's a good thing. Yeah, I agree. I think it helps businesses go further faster. And I think it also opens up opportunities because the barriers to entry in a lot of businesses that would have involved significant capital investment in a lot of the projects that you've been involved in, there's cash on the table, isn't there? whereas I think in today's world actually AI you can start a business like tomorrow, you know, very, very fast. We've got a really good example in the brewery, a tiny craft brewery in the New South West and we've just gone on television and we've done a television advertisement and we did it through AI and it cost us a few thousand, low thousands pounds.

46:06You know, back in the day, I would have spent half a million quid on my TV ad for all the hours easily and, you know, had film crews flying out to wherever. Yeah. And I think with small businesses, it gives them exactly what you just said. It just gives them the ability to compete on a better level. Yeah, yeah. And actually, so now, obviously, you made the decision to go down the plural route. It felt right. The time was right. And you're involved. We actually got introduced through the Lost Estate. Yeah, we did. So you're a non-exec in that business. And you're doing other interesting things as well.

46:42How has that transition been for you from being very much running the show or being very not hands on? That's the wrong thing to say, because you're not in those big jobs. Clearly, you're delegating effectively to your team. But nonetheless, you're you're you're you're running the business. Right. Whereas as a Ned, it's a very different role, isn't it? It's much more advisory, strategic, et cetera. So that transition, do you have you found that easy or have you had to sort of learn a new approach to letting go? not not fiddling and dabbling and interfering it can be extremely frustrating yes you're no longer at the executive table being part of the decision making process you are well how did somebody describe to me you are the critical friend so you're you know you've just bought a new dress your best friend comes in the room and says do you like my dress you're the only person that can say know your bum looks big in it and and i think i i love the opportunity to be able to do that i love the opportunity to be involved in lots of different things with different really different businesses different eyes in the fire but um it's difficult being some i throw myself very deeply much more than non-exec would be i was out on the road recently um going around a whole world of pubs with weights yes i don't need to do that as an on-exec but i understand the business more by doing it, I get to know the team better.

48:06And quite frankly, I love it. Yeah, you're curious as well. You're learning, aren't you? I always said there's two reasons I would go and do something as a non-exec. One is that I can learn something. And the second is I can make a meaningful contribution. Yes. And there are some non-execs that you can't, or I can't. I mean, different horses for courses, isn't it? But I wouldn't want to be in one of those because then I would feel like I was shortchanging the business and I probably wouldn't be challenging myself. yeah um so so i think i miss the teams bit i'm i'm if you ask me one thing that defines my career would be the people and as a non-exec you're always slightly on the outside and and then you know i i have two cows three alpacas and two goats reporting to me now and and outside of that i don't have i don't have any people and that and that's quite yeah that that took a bit of adjustment yeah but you know I'm still involved enough to be happy with it but I'm not making those people decisions in the same way that I would have been before So how many Ned roles have you got then with the portfolio?

49:13I have got three paid Ned roles and two non-paid so I'm still on the Merlin's Magic One charity as a Ned and then when I left Merlin we set up a family charity where we support smaller charities and that's been quite successful. I've got a couple of ex-colleagues helping me do that. Right. And then I'm on the Lost Estate, which is the immersive dining. It's a fabulous concept, fabulous group of people again. The common theme will come out on all these neds. I'm on the Daniel Thwaites board, which is a hotel, hospitality, pubs company in the north. Again, what an amazing group of people. I mean, it really is fantastic to see them all the time.

50:02And then very bizarrely, I'm on the board of an architect's firm. Oh. They're based out of Torquay, but worldwide they do hotels and attractions, which is why I sort of have the association. So they're all bits I believe I can contribute to. They're all businesses that I love because I'm almost on all of them, I can go and kick the tyres. Yeah. And I quite like kicking tyres. And, yeah, keeps me out of jail. And, you know, a lot of those businesses that you just mentioned, their experiences, you know, that you really, I mean, the Lost Estate with Eddie, who I was lucky enough to interview, that's how Eddie Hackett and that's how we got to be introduced.

50:44I mean, talk about brand a little bit, right? Because how you create a sticky, memorable, meaningful brand in a world of bombardment and content, and there's a lot of incoming, right? Especially with social media. So creating a brand that people love and loyal to, it means something, there's values that they really kind of buy into. It's not an easy thing to do, but it's so important, isn't it? Because I always think the brand is almost like the glue, you know, in a business. not only internally but also excellence the glue between you and the end customer and the guest or whatever but what's your experience and and advice would you give to someone that's trying to build a brand that really means something and is sticky and memorable uh hard to build easy to lose would be the first thing i think you you've already said in the world that we're in loyalty authenticity uh honesty i mean all things that you know unsurprisingly are human values that people like um i also don't think it's about one big thing um we always used to talk about um a thousand gestures um and and it was the little things that made a difference you know in um if you go into uh if you go into a coffee shop and um they talk to you and and um you know that they they they don't just do the american have a nice day they actually talk to you you kind of you kind of remember that and and it's you'll go back and and so so i think it's made up of many many layers about how you sort of do i mean some people talk about technically about building it marketing of course it's all those things but actually it is about really getting into the heart of people and making sure they believe in what you're doing so i i think you know we were very lucky we had and very very strong brands that were developed over tens and tens of years by lots and lots of different people who had guardianship at the time um but but i do think those basic things and doing everything and the little things all and you know what if you don't get it right solve it you know nobody gets everything right in this world but i think again you become much more brand law to somebody if if something goes wrong and that they they go hey we got it wrong so let's talk to you about how we got it right and and you do something about it so so i i would i would say my personal opinion is i i very rarely do long-term brands happen overnight of course they do sometimes but are they still there in 10 15 years time is the problem because i think that takes a long time to build and a lot of effort and you've got to stay relevant as well right you know you've got to move with the times i mean also you have like a kodak moment or yeah nothing stands still does it no so you've got you've got to bend with the wind and you've got it you've got to know but you can still do that you can still have all your historic yes values and and authenticity but then you can take it where you know one of the big things the brands that do really really well is they they um they research themselves to death, don't you, with who their brand loyalists are.

54:04Yeah. So they're talking to people. So talk to people, find out what they want, find out how that can fit in with your brands and do something about it. Yeah, yeah. And I also think that, you know, don't be afraid to say who you're not for. Yeah. You know, niche down. If you try to be all things to all men and women, then you know you're probably just going to end up disappointing and not really standing for anything. You're never going to please everybody either, are you? You really aren't. You really aren't. I interviewed a lady called Barbara Muckerman a couple of years ago now. And Barbara at the time, she was the CEO of Silversea Cruises.

54:37She's now the CEO of Kempinski Hotels. Great woman. Absolutely fantastic. Real kind of, you know, strong, fierce she is, like in a good way, you know. And the conversation we had, she said, you know, you have to stand for something. Otherwise, you're a, I can't do her accent. But otherwise, you're, you know, you're a plain vanilla yogurt. Interesting. You're a plain vanilla yoghurt and no one wants to be a plain vanilla yoghurt. I thought, actually, you know, it was a really good kind of perspective. Don't be afraid to stand for something. And that therefore means that some people will not get you when you won't be for them and that's okay.

55:11But to be caught in this sort of no man's land of middleness of, you know. I might need to plagiarise the yoghurt there. Yeah, exactly. Please, courtesy of Barbara. I love that. Courtesy of Barbara. So there we are. But no, I think it's fascinating building brands, growing brands, organisations. And you've really, you have been a reinvention, but an evolution of yourself. But all through that, that kind of thread of people, values, honesty, fun. Yeah. You've got great energy. You walk in the room and people know you're there, right? That's a size thing. I think it's an aura. Well, it's everything.

55:46You know, sometimes people say, oh, you're a big personality. And I think there's always, there's two types of people in life, aren't there? There are the sort of the zappers where you think, oh, God, wait, mate. you know, and you're one of them. It makes you feel you can take on the world. And then there are sappers that just kind of suck the oxygen out of the room, right? And you said you were always in this positivity. I like the excitement of walking into a room because you never know what you're going to get, is there? It's a Forrest Gump. Life's like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get.

56:16And we walk in here this morning and I meet Liam and I'm kind of going, well, okay, I've just come up on the tube. I'm a bit sweaty. It's a bit hot. And I've just come in and said, hi, Liam, how are you doing? oh, he's off to some big gig for the government tonight. And he kind of goes, okay, that's kind of life. But there's a great example of, you know, who knew what was going to happen today? You know, and I like that. Exactly, exactly. Life's a box of chocolates. Amazing. So what's next for you? You know, you're in this space of portfolio, loving what you're doing. You've got the small holding.

56:48You've got your alpacas and your chickens and your cows and all of that kind of good stuff. are you looking to just continue more of the same? What do you see this next phase of your life being like then? I'm not looking. I'm going to see what comes. Just being. I just, you know, I could turn around and say I'm going to do nothing else and then next week somebody will turn up and say, have you thought about doing this? And I might go, God, that sounds really interesting. And then I can't help myself. But I have no plan. You know, I'm lucky. I've got a good home life. I've got a good work balance.

57:26I'm busier than I probably thought I would be, but in a good way. So, yeah, no plan. Let's just see where life takes us. Yeah. Who's your go-to null star for when you're trying to sort of make decisions or decide on certain things? Who's your wingman or woman? My wife's a good wingman. You know, she sometimes gives me a different perspective. She comes from a very different background. She's a SENS teacher. Oh. And, you know, we're doing big business. She's doing a really important job, you know. And sometimes she'll say something and I'll go, gee, I didn't think about it like that. But it gives you a kind of more human perspective on it.

58:09I also have a very good couple of mates who are a little bit older and wiser than me, and I just trust their opinion. so I I um people I used to work with and and I would just say what do you think of this and they're rarely well there's no wrong advice it's whether I take it or not is the is the issue so I'm surrounded by groups of people that will tell me the truth and I think that's quite a good thing yeah definitely and actually anyone listening or watching you know be careful who you surround yourself with you know be really be selective you know because it does influence you you need to have those people that will not only support you with whatever you know whatever your ambition or purpose or whatever it is but will also say hang on a minute no no no you or you're getting a bit out of order there you know you're getting carried away and you do need that grounding so you want the support and the love and the honesty but you also want someone that's not going to like you know just kind of blow smoke up your backside i've seen that i mean in in in merlin we used to deal a lot with intellectual property and with um people famous people involved in that and there'd be very often times where the people they were surrounded with wouldn't tell them the truth i mean several times i remember us having to step in and tell the truth which was a very awkward place to be yes but you there's no good in being surrounded by what they used to call in in the sexist days of yes men yes women whatever it is you know you need people to tell you the truth because that's when you'll get the best decisions out of yourself well i think this is a very interesting point because it's actually are you going to tell me what you think i want or you're going to tell me what i actually need absolutely and and that's the difference isn't it but that does take a lot you know it does take courage to be able to have those difficult conversations to say hey you know no actually and it could go the wrong way it could be turned into conflicts you know a lot of people don't like that but you know if you if you treat yourself that's what you need to do yeah and i think doing it in an elegant nice kind way what even if it's a difficult conversation it needs to be had and it should be had in a respectful way shouldn't it you know 100 you don't you don't need to be brutal no no although i've seen very brutal terrible behavior in corporates as well i'm sure you have as well and that's not necessary and it's and that's sometimes i think when you're when you look you look as you're growing your leadership it's always helpful i think to observe of, you know, the behaviours that you want to replicate.

1:00:36But sometimes you see and think, oh, my God, I definitely don't want to be that kind of person. Yeah. No, 100%. I'm not a shouter. I've never shouted at anybody in my life, but I have red lines and people know where the red lines are. And if they were ever crossed, we'd have a discussion about it. I wouldn't have a shout too much about it. No. And it was then me explaining why those red lines were there. And then hopefully the conclusion was, you know, okay, I get that. Let's not go there again. but it's a relationship thing. Yeah, definitely. And it's, I mean, my mum never used to shout, but you just knew with a look.

1:01:09You just knew with a look. I had a dad the same. Very, very, very placid man. But, you know, you knew not to take the mickey. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you've given loads of advice, Fish, honestly. And it's been a great, I've really loved our conversation. It's kind of had ebbs and flows of all sorts of stuff in here. So that's super helpful. When you said about advice earlier, you say you get lots of advice and you don't always, you don't always listen to it or don't always put it into action let's say you listen but you don't necessarily follow so but is there any great advice that you have followed that you know you go actually yeah that was that was a bit of gold there that's helped you i think it's interesting because there's lots of things people have said you could pick you could pick things i i'd say i i thought about this and i thought i've got a piece of observational advice that I watched, and I've got hopefully an example that will explain it to people.

1:02:03My dad was a primary school headteacher, and he was an absolute genius of being able to talk to everybody. And he would be more friendly with the janitor than he would be with the deputy head because he just had this ability to talk to everybody in the spectrum. I don't like using the word the bottom or the top because everybody's got an important job to do in there. Yes, agreed. And I watched that from afar. And I think, hopefully, it's one of the things that's rubbed off on me a little bit. And I was thinking, well, how do you explain that? Because not many people on here are going to know my dad.

1:02:40And I thought Maya Angelou has got a brilliant, one of her great quotes is about that people, they won't remember what you say or what you do, but if you make them feel something um that's that's incredible and when you're managing people if you're able to put that across um and and and just make people feel good about themselves even at adversity because you can um i i think that's probably so so it's not it's not it's not a it's not a written or told piece of advice it's just a piece of observational advice is when you're managing people you know how do you feel about it if somebody does that to you um and and you've got the power particularly managing people to to be able to give that back yeah and and you know linked to that i think there's the whole concept of you know treat people as you'd like to be treated yourself isn't it put yourself on the other age age old isn't it it is a classic but it's true because i think sometimes we can get carried away with the position or the pressure or you know we can say things in a certain way and we don't always get it right and you know we could say sorry i shouldn't have spoken that way or whatever right and that's fine but i think yeah when you put yourself on the other side and you think actually even if it's bad news or it's difficult conversation how would i want to receive this that makes a big difference and i think the skill of putting yourself in other people's shoes literally and sometimes taking a deep breath saying well okay i hate what they're saying i hate what they're doing but if you put yourself on the other side of the table and you go okay i'm looking out with their eyes now i can start to understand why they're feeling the way they are and then you can modify yourself to try and get to something positive out of it.

1:04:15Well, that's the key word there. Why? Yeah. Isn't it? What's your why? Why are they doing that? Why are they behaving that way? Why are we doing what we're doing? Why are we doing this acquisition? Why are we making a decision to IPO and then take it? Why, why, why, why, why? You know, and if you still just keep asking why until you get to some kind of clarity. I think it's a really powerful thing to do in life and business, isn't it? Because if you're not clear on your why, well, then you're probably not going to be following the right A lot of businesses don't do very well because they don't communicate the why.

1:04:45Yeah. You know, I think if people feel informed about things, might disagree, but at least they understand. And actually, something you were saying earlier, and I think this is the key, maybe your dad had this skill as well. You know, it's the age old example, isn't it? Where NASA and the cleaners do it, you know, why I'm here to put a man on the moon. You know, it's cleaning the toilets or whatever it was, I think is the anecdote. but that individual knew exactly the role he played in the bigger picture and why he exists. Great story. Isn't it? It is. And you think, oh, God, yeah, we just need to instil a bit of that in everything we do and then we won't go too far wrong, will we?

1:05:24Yeah. So, Fish, this year for you, interesting year, lots going on. If you could describe it in one word, what would it be and why? There's an obvious word, isn't there, with my background? Well, tell me. it's a bit of a roller coaster um i don't think whether it's the year the 18 months the two years i don't think we've been in my lifetime in something that's been so traumatic both on a i don't know personal you know people worrying about their own personal finances to families to geopolitical big world stuff and everything else and sometimes you just want to sit down and go can we have a break um uh it's it really is a roller coaster and i think you know it's hard sometimes within everything that you've only got to pick a newspaper up and there's very little good news um i think there probably is good news it just it doesn't sell column inches so um uh and i think there's probably even more reason why you need to stay positive on things because it really is a roller coaster you've got to remember that everybody around you is feeling it the same and some people are stronger than others and sometimes you probably need to reach behind you and grab the ones that are less strong and take them with you and say it's going to be all right.

1:06:44Yeah. You know, we will be all right. The human race has been around a long time. But it is hard sometimes when you pick the papers up or you turn the news on or you look at your bank statements or all those things, you know, they come in. It's kind of, it seems to be incoming all the time, doesn't it? Yeah, I agree. I agree. So, yeah, be as positive as you can. But a rollercoaster of a year. yes well it comes back to the zappers of the sappers and you know it's easy to find something that's negative really and especially now it's even more of it so you're right sometimes you have to dig a bit deeper to kind of say okay well this too shall pass yeah and we will get through this and you know i always think well as long as someone's not died in this situation then everything else you can deal with i use that phrase a lot you know people people are absolutely on the knees and I go nobody died here let's just take a step back and think about it and I think that's a good phrase sometimes.

1:07:41Yeah let's get perspective perspective. Another word another great word. Yeah absolutely. So Fish what song are we going to add to our Spotify playlist from you? We like to ask all our guests for their music choice. I'm allowed to Go on then you agreed it. As it's me. You agreed but as it's you and as you did ask so nicely there'll be obvious ones when you you think about what one of my uh one of my all-time favorites is one called tub thumping um um uh which the main thing is uh chorus for those that know it will be i get knocked down but i get up again yes uh which you'll know yes most people think it's called if you get knocked down i'll get up again but it's not it's called tub thinking by Chumba Wumba.

1:08:26Chumba Wumba. And one is it's a really uplifting song. And two is it's a bit of a mantra. You know, you're always going to get a bit of stuff, but, you know, get back on the horse, your bike, whatever's your thing. So that's definitely one. And then the other one, which I absolutely love, probably one of my favourite films from The Greatest Showman, This Is Me by Keela Settle, I think, and the cast. but it's quite a powerful song in the film particularly because there's a place for everybody in society but there's a group of people that are saying that we're slightly different but it doesn't matter and I like that I like the fact that everybody's got a place to do something and it's a great song so yeah those two I think would be good uplifting songs that I probably will have in the car tomorrow on the way home there we are well we will let you have to because they were such good.

1:09:23If one of them wasn't so good, I'm going to have to narrow you down to one. But no, you can have to. Both are amazing, actually. I agree. And very emotive. Yes. Very emotive. So Brave Bold Brilliant is the name of the podcast and actually the proud brand of our business. Yeah, brilliant. But when you hear that, Brave Bold Brilliant, what does it mean to you, Fish? It's really interesting in the context that we've been talking about today because I think everybody, and I mean everybody, not just the high flyers, the entrepreneurs, has got the chance to be those three things. And the biggest thing that works against us sometimes is self-doubt.

1:10:06And I think if you can conquer the self-doubt, and everybody has it, so the most amazing CEOs, prime ministers, whatever you've had on here, will at some stage, I promise you, go through self-doubt because it's a human trait and um you've just got to remember you've kind of all humans have got this kind of superpower just to step over it it's hard you might need a bit of help um but remember it you know and and you can only do that if you're those three things well what a way to finish brilliant thank you fish great to talk to you oh it's a wrap What a conversation with fish. My God, we covered everything, didn't we?

1:10:50From early career, we're talking about bear to boardroom. What a story. You know, building brands that are authentic, leading with values, authenticity. And we covered so much. But for me, one of the real standout points from the interview was just how positivity and an approach to life and business means that you can really do magical things. So I certainly am coming out of this conversation with Fish feeling like I can take on the world. And I hope you feel the same way. And of course, if you've enjoyed this conversation, please do share the episode with your family, with your friends, with colleagues, anyone that you feel really needs that boost of positivity from Fish.

1:11:40And of course, please hit the subscribe button if you're watching on YouTube, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts or on Spotify. Again, hit subscribe, share with all your friends. And remember, it is by being brave and bold that you will unlock your brilliant.

1:12:02Thank you.