Emma Wilson, Co-Founder of Tribe on How to Build a Brand that Stands Out from the Crowd

0:01Brave Bold Brilliant, it means believing in yourself and having the confidence to go for it and making your dream happen. So welcome to Brave Bold Brilliant. I'm here today with the wonderful Emma Wilson, who is the co-founder of Tribe and also client director. Nice to see you, Emma. Nice to see you, Jeannette. Thank you for having me. You're very welcome. Now, we have known each other for a few years. Yes. How long? Well, about 30 years. 30 years! I think in total. Exactly. We were very young when we met. We were very, very young and we were sort of starting out on our career in travel at Thompson holidays.

0:39Yes, on the graduate scheme. Yes, that's right. Yeah. Back in the day. And since then, your career is, well, we've both done different things. Your career has gone from strength to strength, I will say. So I've been watching with great interest as well as being one of my best friends. Actually, what you do professionally is amazing. Thank you, Jeanette. So let's start there. Well, let's start with the journey where, you know, kind of where life started for you, how you got into brand marketing and then sort of because I think it's quite helpful for people to understand the person behind what they're doing today.

1:12Because it's never a straight line, is it? Yeah. Yeah. No, definitely not. So, yeah. Talk us through how you got to where you are now. Yeah. So I guess I'm not going back too far, but yeah, I did a French business degree at uni. So I got the flavour of business from there, really. and also my parents are self-employed, we're always self-employed so it was always within the family really, having your own business and then I joined you on the graduate scheme at Thompson which was an amazing experience but very quickly felt that I wanted to be more specifically in marketing and possibly food and drink marketing at that point.

1:44So two or three years after joining Thompson I left and joined Nestle as one of their assistant brand managers down in London and then worked through a number of food companies over the years, McVitie's, Heinz, Arla, up to sort of marketing manager level there, which was brilliant. Worked on a raft of different brands, Lurpak, Roundtree's Jelly, Go Ahead, The Works really. So it's a great experience. But then really felt that I wanted to go into agency life. So I was very lucky that somebody that I worked with who was my agency, the owner of one of the agencies that we worked with said would you like to jump over the fence and come and work with us so that was brilliant so I loved that move and since then I've worked in a number of different branding agencies larger and small for the last probably 12 years until or 15 years maybe until I'm doing my current adventure of yeah running running tribe so I think it's nice that I've seen both sides of the fence so I can really empathize with our clients in terms of I've been a client, I've been on the marketing side, but I've also seen how a number of agencies work so I'm finding that really useful as we build Tribe.

2:56Amazing. So explain what Tribe does, how you help people, the type of clients that you have because for anyone that doesn't know, you're doing some pretty cool edgy stuff. You're not your bog standard brand and marketing agency and you've been through so many reiterations in your career but I guess that's given you the chance to create something that is quite is unique and different in that space because there's loads of brand and marketing agencies out there so but Tribe and what you're doing is really cool and you're standing out in the market so talk about that a little bit. Yeah brilliant so what we were really keen to do when we set up Tribe is to do something different so having seen having worked as a client with a lot of agencies and having worked in agencies obviously there's a lot of similar ways that people work you know they've people have got big offices they've got sort of teams that are quite rigid in terms of the way they work and what we wanted to do was we really spotted an opportunity to do things differently to the benefit of the client primarily so um so we don't have big offices um and we we have um almost a massive team because what we've built up is a really big team of tribal answers as tribal answers as we call them so we've handpicked um based on from people that we know over the last 30 years um a really really excellent large team of people who are all specialists in their field so from a client perspective it's it's wonderful uh in terms of that they have access to all of those so because for every project um you sometimes don't need a really senior person or we might need somebody who's based in india or based in australia and really what we can offer is that global team of experts that have been handpicked so you get a hand-picked team of experts for your projects and in terms of projects what we very much focus on is creating and refreshing brands for businesses for success so success for their business and success in the out in the sort of the big wide world if you like so that can rate that can range from somebody comes to us with an idea for a product and needs a brand for it and through to they have a brand that could have been around for years that needs reshaping and refreshing for the future.

5:06So it can be a number of different types of asks. And in terms of the clients that we work with, that's the thing that I love that gets me most excited, really, in terms of we're working with one-man band founders setting up. So we've got a couple of wonderful female founders that we work with at the minute that have had ideas for businesses. And we're helping them establish those through to bigger businesses that have been around for a number of years, that, you know, million-pound businesses. that we're helping with all manner of things from launching new products, packaging design, through to campaigns, social, the work.

5:41So that's what personally gets me really excited is the variety and the meeting of all these people and helping them deliver commercial success ultimately, which is why we're here. And also, we can't reveal, but there are some massive global big, big, big brands that you're in discussions with at the moment. Yes, so it's really exciting. We can't reveal, but watch this space. So you've got rid of the whole gamut, haven't you, from kind of startup entrepreneurs, mid-size, right the way through to huge corporates. Yes, exactly. Which really gives you that breadth of perspective, but also the credibility.

6:16And I mean, some of the brands you were rolling off that you actually worked when you were sort of in the business, if you like, and as agency. These are big, well-known brands. So you bring all that credibility, don't you, of 30 years yes in the game exactly yeah and the experience of them growing them their brands so you know we've we've been involved in sort of brands getting into retail so for example wagamama launching into retail and building into a big million pound business to people having to pivot quite quickly because there's a new there's a new competitor come in and you know they're struggling so I've seen all sorts of I've worked with all sorts of brands um both managing them myself or supporting them through tribe and other agencies um so i've seen all sorts of challenges really as has the rest of the team my co-founder kath who leads the design side as well so yeah it's been it's been really useful and you don't realize until you actually get a challenge how much you've sort of taken in really do you and then you think oh actually yeah i've got this experience i've seen this before um so hopefully we're really hoping that we're building that into you know for the benefit of the clients that we have now all that experience is coming to the Super exciting.

7:28Yeah, really exciting. I'm so proud. I'm so proud. I mean, obviously, we're having a conversation professionally, really, on the podcast around kind of branding. But obviously, as someone that I love and adore as a friend, it is amazing to see you flourish. But, you know, it isn't easy. And especially making the jump from, and I've done it as well, out of corporate into, you know, starting your own businesses and stuff. It is not an easy, easy thing to do. what was the catalyst for you then deciding to say you know I've loved my career you know it's not that you didn't enjoy the roles you've done and everything but why now and and what was it that made you go no actually you know we're going to set up tribe and we're going to do it we're going to have our own business what was it yeah I think it was something that was in the back of my head and I've had a bit of dabbling in businesses in the past haven't I when I had my son I set up a vintage China hire business and props business.

8:20So I do like being my own boss. So I'd always sort of thought, have I got another thing in me before I hang up my handbag or whatever you hang up? Yeah, so I'd always thought, could I do something? I'd really like to build something, see what I can do. And I think maybe it was my age, sort of mid to late 40s. 40s and I just thought if I don't there was an element of if I don't do it now I'm never going to do it um I was fortunate to have I'm fortunate to have a really supportive partner who's always been like just go for it just give it a whirl and I think maybe yeah I think I just thought um go for it yeah I've got a kid I've got teenage kids and I want there was an element of I want to set a really good example to them to show that if you put your mind to it you can achieve anything if you work hard enough.

9:11And that's what I want to show them, really. And, yeah, I just think it's... I think I finally got to that point. It took me a while, but I think it's finally got to that point where I've thought, no, I can do this. I've got enough experience. We can do it. Let's do it. And you mentioned age, right? And lifestyle, life stage, shall we say. And I was... When I was I, I was about 47, 48 when I came out of corporate. So I think there is something around that kind of period, of your life where you go right one I've got loads of experience your confidence is high you know is higher than probably it was when we were starting out you don't take any bullshit off everyone excuse me you don't want to work with people that you don't like like and respect yeah and but you still got that fire in the belly haven't you you still got enough time to go right I'm going to really make an impact you know there's life in the old dog yet and let's face it you know we're not even halfway through no no yeah yeah we tend to think 40s 50s oh my god you know but now in today's world you know starting a business at that age is like it's great yeah exactly yeah yeah because you've got that confidence i think maybe in your life stage it's a bit easier you know because if you've got kids you're not like in the depths of the trenches with them and you've got a bit more brain space and to really go for it so it's been brilliant for me the timing has been brilliant for me on a number of levels to really throw myself in and feel like i've got I can give everything to our clients that I want to in terms of client relationships.

10:38Because for me, for always being on the client side, the client services side, that's really important to me. We are not an agency that goes in, grabs the money or grabs the challenge and then leaves. It's always for me about the long term relationship and trying to get as close to the business, our clients' businesses as possible. And understand them and get under the skin of them so that we can deliver true value. because I don't want them to pay us if we're not actually doing that because that's what they're paying for. So that's really important and personally, you know, something that we always endeavour to deliver.

11:15Yeah, and I do think that that does stand out from the experience I've had with you guys is that, you know, you take the time to understand the business. It's not just around creatively we want to, you know, put together a brand or enhance a brand or a product offering that makes it look fantastic for the customer, you know, and it'd be beautiful, let's say, or edgy or whatever it is you're trying to achieve. But it's around, okay, there's hard-nosed commercials behind this. You know, we've got to be driving business. So actually understanding, because you understand business, and that does make it different because you become very much not just a brand and marketing partner, but almost like a strategy business advisor all wrapped into one with the clients that you work with right yeah definitely and I don't think you you probably underplay that actually um from what I've seen but that's a massive massive difference from someone that just goes in and goes okay I just want you to fiddle around with the brand yeah yeah yeah because it isn't a beauty parade and then you know like you can make anything look good can't you you can make a brand look good you know but what it needs to do is deliver and and really and and that's what design can do and brands can do you know um if done correctly you know it should be discussed at board level design and brands etc and that is happening more and more but what we're really keen on doing as well and have made some real steps to do over the last couple of years is to really think about the tools how are we going to measure impact so you know obviously we've got the bottom line and And our clients are telling us that, you know, we've got some amazing statistics of one client that the refresh of a brand generated 25, 30 percent sales uplift, which is fantastic, like for like.

13:01But how, apart from sales, how are we going to measure that? Well, things will work before you've actually launched them. So we've got some amazing eye tracking tools, for example. We're really leaning into AI in the right way now in terms of making sure that we're working as efficiently as we can and, you know, cherishing clients' budgets. but also what we can do with this particular tool is we can measure the impact of packaging for example or a website before it's actually launched so you can see where people's eyes are going are they taking in your key messages what are they noticing what's unnecessary clutter and that's really exciting and I think quite unique with an agency at the minute and our clients are really buying into that and loving that and it just gives them it helps them with some difficult conversations in the business as well because ultimately we've all been in meetings where we've held up a design and someone said oh we really like it or I've had I've had this before my wife doesn't like pink so we can't go with pink yeah so um you know that having tools like that really helps our clients as well go to the next stage and sell it in and say you know engagement for example as a statistic has gone up by 20 with this new design it's more memorable people's attention are focusing on the right elements of the of the design or the campaign and all the advertisements.

14:14So we're very much into doing that, always measuring what we do, making sure that it's going to deliver before we actually launch it and then monitoring it with the client afterwards. And how do you, interestingly, you were talking, well, obviously, AI, I've got a couple of things that spring into mind as you were talking. So AI, you know, there's a lot of noise at the moment about AI. Some of it very positive, some of it quite negative. You know, it's a threat, it's taking jobs, all that kind of stuff, which I'm sure they said when, you know, than when the car replaced the horse or trap, you know.

14:45So there's an element of that, isn't there? Kind of quite a Luddite approach to sort of tech. So a lot of people see it as a threat, but, you know, threat or opportunity, what side of the fence are you on? It sounds like you're on the opportunity side. I'm on the opportunity. I mean, yeah, because in our industry there is a lot of concern. You know, things like copywriters for one or other. You can create design by AI now, can't you? We hear people just putting in something into chat, GTP, and out pops a design. So I'm not an advocate for that, obviously, but I am an advocate for AI taking you some way down the road in a clever manner.

15:18So, you know, for example, there's this leap, there's leaps of development being happening in photography, for example. So if you had a brand that was selling in a number of different regions, for example, and what would have happened historically is you would have had to go out and shoot in different territories so that the backgrounds were right. Whereas now what you can do is just shoot the product and use some AI to develop different backgrounds. Now, there's a skill in that because you need to get the right backgrounds. And there's time that needs to be taken and that needs to be paid for.

15:52But you can imagine there's cost saving to a client, which means that they've not got to go around to four or five different countries shooting this. And that's important because businesses nowadays, it's difficult, isn't it? And where you can make clever cost savings, that's really important. And then that money can go into areas which are really going to add extra value. So, you know, yes, you can tighten budgets through AI and et cetera. But it's more for me, it's more about that enables you to free up money that you can then add extra value, which is going to build additional value to your business or your brand.

16:27It's not solely about cost cutting. It's about being more effective with your budget. So and there are some really exciting things happening. And I feel like, you know, my advice would be we have to get on board because it's there. So, you know, but it's about using it cleverly and in the right way. And that allows, you know, a client that you're working with, it allows you to give them the reassurance, explain how it can be used in the right way. And, you know, and to create a quality output that doesn't look, you know, false. No, definitely. You know, and I guess that's one of the concerns. But that, like you say, that creates a whole other skill set.

17:07It does. And, you know, a different type of role potentially than was in place before. And that takes time to, you know, to do that properly. Yeah, we don't want the examples. I thought one the other day where there was a person with six fingers. So we don't want that, do we? But yeah, but that takes time. That's a role. And that will only improve over time as well. So people have to get better at doing that. So it's just about, it's adapting, isn't it? But, yeah, I think there's huge potential in that for businesses and also for ourselves as well. Yeah. So why is brand so important then, Emma?

17:44Because someone might say, oh, all this marketing bullshit fluff, you know what I mean? Isn't it just pretty pictures and colours? But, you know, why is brand so important? What's your perspective on it? Yeah. So brand is, I think there's a statistic that brand is about 75%, 80 % of the value of the business, isn't it? but brand is what sticks in people's minds really and I think a good brand understands its audience and really resonates with them and I think it's been proven time and time again that people buy people sort of associate themselves with brands and brands it's a sort of a reciprocal arrangement if you like and so I think brand is really important because ultimately it builds the value of a business but I think having a distinctive brand is something that's memorable and engaging and that will make people pick it up off the shelf so you know um if you have a brand for example if you're thinking of go brands in retail that doesn't stand off the shelf nobody's going to pick it up so um and you're not going to remember that you're not going to have it in your cupboard and think oh i bought that it was lovely i'm going again or i've just seen it on the shelf i'll buy it so um you know it needs to be the development of brands needs time and considerable attention to ensure that it engages with the mind and it's something that's memorable um and you know and it's ensuring that people buy and buy again yeah yeah and you're right you know at the end of the day you know brand sits on the balance sheet yeah exactly yes it does yeah if you look at the balance sheet and the you know the annual results of some of the biggest businesses in the world the value if you look at an apple or you know whatever you know a nike and these massive iconic brands the value of the brand on the balance sheet is like astronomically yeah eye-watering numbers right um but equally even for for a small brand you know even if a sole opener that's kind of starting out you know i always think a brand is and i'm not a marketer and i'm sure it absolutely drives you crazy when you end up with everyone becomes an expert marketer i'm not going to come to that in a minute actually i think that's an interesting way you've sort of challenged that um but i always think of it as the glue you know internal and external as well because internal brand is is equally important you know we're talking about attracting talent retaining talent you know yeah i think there's some phrase and i don't know the stats you'll probably know something on it but that people join brands in terms of joining an organization to work for that organization and they tend to leave their boss yeah you have a horrible boss you'll leave the organization but you'll join a business because what the brand stands for etc not just the product but internally yeah and everything so so when it comes to external brand versus an internal brand um how do you how how do businesses navigate that in the best way do you think what's what you know do you is it should it be consistent with the external brand i'm not talking about product lines i'm probably talking about the main the main brand but how what do you see that works well in translating an external brand in terms of an internal brand yeah so I think it should be consistent there should different because I think the face of the company is everybody should be working in a similar way in the company and believing in the same things in the same mission in the same purpose and ultimately the execution of that in terms of the products and the brands that you've got might be slightly different obviously will look different but I think everybody we sometimes when we're working with a brand from a start off we work on what we call a brand blueprint which is basically the brand on a page or the business on a page and that's a really useful exercise because a it cuts out I mean sometimes you have presentations and decks of all these things that you want to achieve and it really focuses people to think right what do we want to be what's our mission what's our values what's our purpose and then you know everything then can align towards that so then it's a page that everybody follows in terms of how they behave in the company but that should really align to what your products are and how you want to be seen by your customers so it's whether you're whether you're a sort of a packaged goods company or whether you're a huge business you know supplying other businesses and it for me it needs to be consistent internally and externally and that's becoming more and more important now because um sort of the the gen z and the millennials are really buying into that now and and rightly so yeah they want to work for a company that that's sustainable that's got really good policies that fits with them as a person whereas i think when we were young there wasn't that to a certain level was there we were just really keen to get a job and to keep earning money so uh yeah whereas now it's really changing so it's really important And we're seeing a lot more businesses putting a lot more effort and attention and money behind that to make sure that they are perceived as great, will be great employers and carry that through.

22:32So it's not just in the first six months to a year of the person joining the business, but it goes through the business, all different levels. And everybody's going in the right direction towards the same ultimate goal. yeah and so given that you work with i've got loads of questions that are all whizzing around my mind so given that you work with everyone from a sort of a sole opener starting out or starting a business right the way through to huge international corporates um how so the corporates you get it they've got big budgets they've got big you know they've got kind of you know big firepower they've got lots of internal resources as well as external resources available to them so in that scenario arguably it's easy to build a brand or you might have history at that's it So you've got good, solid foundations.

23:20Or you actually might have a massive problem where a brand is broken and it's a massive risk to change. So there is a flip side to that. But that's probably an easier scenario. But if you're a small business and you're just starting out, how do you build a brand on a shoestring when maybe you bootstrap in a business or you're really in those early phases and you're literally having to decide, well, do I hire someone or do I put some money behind my brand? and those are difficult choices as a young business that you have to make. So how can you build a brand on a shoestring? Well, it is a difficult choice and we see different businesses taking different routes to that.

23:56So we often work with people that we have quite a few people that come to us after about two or three years. So they've done it themselves. They've sort of funded it themselves. They've had a go at a bit of a design. It's sort of worked. You know, they've built up, you know, we've built up to say maybe a million, and a million and a half, which is an absolutely amazing effort on very little budget. And then just about to take the leap to get a listing, well, trying to get a listing in retail or trying to, you know, do something else. Maybe they were just direct to consumer. And they find that that's the time when really they're thinking, no, we need to put a bit more spend behind this.

24:30It needs to be a bit more thought out. But we've had, I mean, we've seen people with not much budget and we've tried to help. We try to help them where we can because we appreciate it. It's a hard struggle at the start where you can do something which is really personality driven and characterful and cuts through at not a huge budget. I mean, there's been some great stories of brands that have done amazing PR. That's a really great thing to cut through. So, you know, you obviously need a brand design that looks all right, that communicates your key messages, that makes you stand out and, you know, tells people clearly why you should buy me and not someone else.

25:09but there's been some amazing sort of more character personality brands that haven't had a lot of budget. You know, that you see people standing, some amazing sort of challenger brands that are standing in front of Tesco with a massive placard saying, list me. I mean, you know, you do have to think outside the box if you haven't got a lot of budget, but it is possible. I would say, and I probably would say this, but that sometimes you only get one chance to make a good impression. and um and i'm guilty of this in my business as well really you know like sometimes you think well i'll just carry on doing it sort of you know step by step and i do think sometimes it is better to get the investment however you can and put the money into the brand identity from the start it doesn't have to be really expensive but i feel like if you're going to put all that work into developing something for two years and then you're going to change it quite radically if you'd have managed to sort of find some funds beg borrow steal from somewhere and it's not it doesn't have to be a huge amount of money and got a really strong design from the start and then gone out there you're building that up from the start in terms of muscle memory for your brand so but but I've over the years been on both sides of the fence and personally experienced that and I know it's tricky but from from what I've seen and the experience of seeing different ways of doing it I would definitely recommend if you can put your money into your brand at the start it will pay off yeah that's good advice and you're not reinvented totally constantly reinventing the wheel um as well and you've you know you've honed down who you're actually talking to that's another key one really because i think the tendency is you sort of think well i'll just speak to everyone because i'm not really sure who's going to like it and i'll take anyone's business as long as you've got a pulse exactly and i think again it's audience audience audience really really really hone down on who you're talking to why they want your brand why you're filling a gap what's the white space and then literally paint a picture of those in your mind and like we are constantly talking to this person we know what they do we know what what they do at the weekend we know what their concerns are and then you will catch other people as well but it just means that you're not sort of speaking on different levels because as we all know when we're trying to start a business or running a business normally you don't have loads of resource in there so you really do need to be focused about what you're trying to achieve and very single-minded so yeah I mean I've I've been guilty with our business of like spreading ourselves too thin you know almost kind of you know jack of all trades master of none and I think you do have to niche down and then like you say once you've mastered that okay then there's an option isn't there to kind of broaden or maybe go take a b2b that b2c or whatever it might be but yeah I think if you try that's and also that's the entrepreneur as well in a lot of people you know that it's a shiny penny yeah oh oh, that sounds great, I'll go over there.

28:05And then, you know, the team's in chaos going, well, what are we doing? And then you lose that. So I guess less is more, right? Less is more, yeah. And that's why it's good to have the brand on a page. This is what we're all about. This is who we're targeting. No, no. And it's also good to have something like that because then I think if somebody then does have a wild idea, and I'm as guilty as anyone, but I'm definitely one of those people that thinks, let's do that, it sounds brilliant, and gets totally carried away. You know, other people within the team can pull you back and say, you know, no, no, wait a minute, this is not what we're doing this might be in six months time a year but we're really focusing on this now um to the point where it's good to have a mix of personalities in the business isn't it because you need someone I think that has got the big ideas but you also need someone who can pull them down and help to prioritize which you should actually be doing yeah so difficult quite not a difficult question but a potentially difficult scenario with clients and I've seen it as well and I've always had you know in the corporate roles I've had I've had great marketers and amazing people that are so like you know fabulous at what they do they are the experts but you get in the boardroom or anywhere in a team meeting all of a sudden everyone becomes an expert marketing right yeah people that have not got a clue but everyone has an opinion which is not a bad thing but you know because you know what you like you know what you don't like how do you deal with and well how do you deal with a scenario where you know you have you've you've come up with a brand creative or something you've done the research it's based on hard facts and and really deep knowledge of what you do in the experts and the 30 plus years experience in business and then the client just kind of I think you said well I don't like pink you know or whatever so how do you how do you deal with that well you have to be quite sensitive sometimes sometimes they're quite high it was very sensitive the discussion so um I would always I always do a little bit of a recap of the journey before we start so you know it could have been a few weeks since you last met so it's like we've remember we agreed you know blah blah blah this is what the the research has told us this is who we're targeting which sometimes allays any potential questions that people sort of points that people are shouting out um and then it's always about the day it's always about sort of the research and the data really so harking back this is why we're really you know this this is what this told us we've done an audit for example of other brands that sit here you know if somebody was saying I you know I don't I don't like pink or whatever it's and we designed something pink that's because maybe it's going to really stand out on shelf so for instance olive oils for example you know for this is not a real life example but you know if you designed a pink olive oil it would really stand out wouldn't it this is the reason why we've done it and so really harking back to the journey that we came to really we've gone along really helps um the having these tools that can measure impact before we've actually launched it so you know we could have tested something a campaign or a social asset or a packaging and said well it's it's it's so much stronger than your previous asset assets so having the data really helps because nobody can argue with data um but sometimes it is challenging because sometimes um especially with safe family-run businesses where you're really close to it you know or with marketeers that are you know really passionate about the job it is tricky because if you design can be very subjective and one can look at something and think i don't i don't like it and i can't put my finger on why and so we need to listen to that as well because the client knows their brand more than we could ever know them they've met the clients they met the customers you know they're they've got under the skin of it they could have worked on the brand for years so we need to listen to that um because also what I truly believe is you need to be proud of something to sell it well so I don't I'd never like to force a brand identity onto a client where they really didn't like it because they won't run with it and sell it and be as proud of it as they need to be to drive success so it's a funny one yeah I think weirdly now I'm thinking about it now I think it was more a problem in the past years now we don't seem to get that so much now but I think it's it's because we do take the clients on a on a journey and they're on it with us so we always try to avoid any ta-da moments if we've gone away for three months and then we suddenly come back with like a fully formed thing so that the clients tend to be on the journey with us and so we're always making sure that you know we're all in agreement before we go to the next stage and so on so it's a rarer occurrence but it sometimes happens yeah yeah well i mean yeah because everyone's got an opinion they have and they should be able to share the opinion and i'm good i'm a big advocate of good for you as well you know i like the stats and the data that proves that something's going to work but you know sometimes you just think i'm not sure and yeah and that should be listened to and what are some of the brands that you're really that standing out for you at the moment is there anything that's kind of you know not necessarily you're working on I'm not I'm not suggesting you betray a client confidentiality but is there anything in the market that you think oh that's really cool or or that's a long-standing brand that has reinvented itself because that's also impressive when you see that happen isn't it um yeah definitely um well something that was quite it's not a brand per se it's more of a category um the other day uh I was watching something on the television which I won't mention what it was um I noticed and um that the Unilever obviously a big behemoth have seemed to have sort of uh created a new category which is sort of all over deodorant which I thought was really interesting and the advertisements were great in terms of I don't know whether you've seen them they really stood out so the the idea of and it was across a number of brands they've done this all over deodorant uh but they were squirting it in all sorts of different places Oh, I've seen it, yeah.

33:57Down your knickers. I shouldn't say that.

34:02And then people were following people, sniffing the bums and whatnot. And I just thought, God, that's great. It really stood out. But also I thought that's so interesting because, I mean, maybe I've missed the boat on this slightly, but that's a whole new category that they've developed, which is really interesting. And then, you know, and why have they done that? And I'm thinking that that's great because it's very difficult, A, to develop a new category. and the fact that they've done it and seem to have rolled across a number of brands and really gone with it, and I saw a number of ads of different brands landing at the same time, so I just thought that's admirable in terms of the push and it all landing at one time, and I think it is nodding to a trend because I think all these Zempic and so on, all these diet supplements and so on are really going to change how people behave, because they are already aren't they in terms of like food and drink sales are significantly dropping in certain categories because so many people are on them and this is really being seen in america uh but but the result of people doing that and exercising more is they'll be showering more won't they and also some of the side effects of those drugs i just thought wow it feels very timely to have developed that i thought that was a really good move so that stood out in terms of like just creation of a whole new category yeah no you're right i i saw it actually because i I was like because I remember I think I was listening it was in the background I was like all right okay that's quite fun yeah yeah actually really practical yeah yeah especially I mean and also talking about things that you put it was good because it talks about things that you'd probably be a bit embarrassed about talking about wouldn't really talk but they just put them right in front of them and really gone for it in terms it wasn't something like one should be ashamed of or anything it was making it fun and like just throwing it into the day-to-day conversation so I thought that was really good yeah as a menopausal woman I'm willing for that and or whatever like you know a guy coming off the bloody building side that niffs a bit and wants to go straight to the pub you know but yeah that's that's a really good example and i just wanted to shift shift gear a little bit um because you've obviously got business brands and and they're hugely important and that's probably where you spend a good probably most a big proportion of your time and effort what about personal brands because again it's sort of a little bit of a buzzword right now i think people are kind of getting their head around it but there's a lot of nervousness around oh you know do I put myself out there how different should the personal brand be from the business brand yeah is it blurred should it be aligned you know I mean obviously I think one of the most iconic personal brand is Branson isn't it and Virgin you know if you think of it or Steve Jobs and Apple you know so there are a couple of really big brands that sort of have that um but yeah and I think there's a lot of nervousness around around business owners or CEOs actually yeah large corporates where they kind of almost hide behind the title and the business brand without necessarily leaning into the personal brand so any advice on how to you know really embrace the the value of having a personal brand and how to go about it yeah yeah there is a lot of nervousness and we've we've done a couple of um initiatives with bigger businesses about that yeah because a people tend to be nervous about saying the wrong thing don't they then they tend to be nervous about what's my team going to be saying and but on the flip side you don't want it to be so robotic that people can only say certain things so it is a tricky one I think the challenge is very different from big business big corporate business through to sort of one two three man bands um I think personal brand is incredibly important and I keep telling my clients this well the female founders in particular because some of them a bit like me find it all very awkward the thought of you know going going in front of people and talking about it it's like oh god no that's not really me I'm really proud of my product but I don't really want to do that and I think it's it's it's incredibly important because people buy into people yeah and I think with founders in particular you want to know the story behind the brand you want to know why the person came up with this and normally sometimes it's you know I had a problem them so you know we've got three or four brands that you know it stemmed from the founders issue with with weight or with you know or something that the way that they were brought up or you know the food that they enjoyed as kids um and that's really the impetus for the brand so it's the reason for being for the brand and I think it's really important that people can try and share that in an appropriate way and it is a bit awkward but um yeah I do think personal brand is really key I think as well from a sort of building business perspective it's really key isn't it everybody keeps telling me it's really key and I'm like oh god I don't feel 100 % comfortable about that I'm fine I love having meetings and so on but the thought of I mean this made me feel nervous the thought of putting yourself out there but as I tell myself well as I tell them I'm very good at advising my clients on this and I try to advise my own myself on this to the same it's like nobody's thinking about you as much as you're thinking about you are they and nobody's reviewing what you're saying so just get yourself out there you know talk about the brand be authentic to the brand and be authentic to yourself and that will really really sell you and the brand so I do think it's important but I think with bigger business obviously it needs to be managed doesn't it I think to a greater extent um but yeah I think it's all about authenticity because I think nowadays if you're not authentic I think people can smell it a mile off as well can't they so and you've got to be yourself and you know some people will like it some people won't but but that's life so yeah yeah i 100 % agree with it and the reality is people are going to judge you anyway yeah whether you like it or not everyone's everyone's making a judgment about you know your accent your background what you're wearing what you say everyone's going to judge you and so you may as well put yourself out there for something that is important to you is important to your clients is doing good in the world yeah and and then the rest will follow you know and i often say i'm not everyone's cup of tea you know and we know that you know and i can be quite you know abrasive sometimes a little bit in your face a little bit you know and that some people that just really you know just rankles but i'm all right with that you know because i kind of go well this is me you know it's what's important it's how i am and and you're right if you try and if you try and be something that you're not one it's exhausting yeah exactly two you're gonna get found out but yeah you're second guessing aren't you um but i i think i think if to your point it brings like passion energy it's almost the dna it's you know it's like it's that strong aligned purpose yeah and and you know people do they do buy into strong leaders and they want people to succeed i think ultimately most people want people to succeed um and and i think people admire people having the confidence to take that leap and put your money where your mouth is and spend all that you know stay up till two o 'clock every night trying I was speaking to another lady another female founder weirdly the other day and you know she was up till half two doing something and I think people admire that I know that's not very good work-life balance but sometimes you just gotta do it together I think people love that and and and opening that side of you up I think is the difference between you and a Unilever brand or a Nestle brand and you know and that will make the difference and that will make people buy so apart from the fact that you know it's a good business tool apart from the fact that it's a nice thing to do and you will enjoy it more I think if you are more authentic and more open.

41:39Yeah yeah what's the most challenging thing for you do you think in in your career that you've had whether it's whether it's now as a business owner or when you were in corporate what have there been have there been particular times which has been difficult for you like career-wise or where you sort of had to bounce back or maybe you've got a knock back or you know what I mean because yeah because life isn't easy business isn't easy being a woman in business I mean thank god things have changed from when we started out you know I mean I was always a bloody only woman in the board and we've made leaps and bounds but still you know you're talking about female founders and it isn't easy no it's not easy We don't get everything right and we get lots of knockbacks, but any particular sort of moments where you've had to bounce back or you've had to start again or rethink things?

42:22Yeah, I think I think probably that since having Tribe has been the most challenging, I think, probably because it's a personal venture. So, yeah. And you have to wear a lot of hats when you set up a business. um so um you have to be you have to learn a lot of things quite quickly and what you thought you were going to be spending time when you're actually probably not um but also the personal things so you know we I think I just generally started out overthinking absolutely everything and if somebody you know you send an email you don't get your response it's like whoa what was wrong with it you know and and I am definitely getting better at that now because I think people are busy they're not just sitting waiting for you know our email or um and the time might not be right but it will be right in a few months or a year or whatever or it might never be right but you can't take these things personally I think is what I've really learned um and I think I've also learned that you've just got to go for it I think maybe when we started um tribe we were maybe overthinking things we were like not taking a leap that we should have probably done um but we are definitely now and it's really exciting and some of the things will be really successful some of the things won't but we'll know and we'll move on the trick is I always think the trick is to move on quickly so try something if it doesn't work you know move on do something else um but we're really you know it's it's a really exciting type of tribe at the minute and I think all the work that we've put in over the last two years and the relations we've made I think I hopefully touch wood you know coming together and I think um what I would say to someone starting a business is just keep going well that's your advice that you've advised me over the years and it is a piece of advice that just stick in my mind actually just be consistent just put one foot in front of the other and just every day just keep moving forward even if it's just a small step and and yeah we've we've tried to do that and I think hopefully it's working but it's true because because sometimes it is really difficult and sometimes you think am I just you know pushing water uphill here is it ever going to happen you know and it I think there's a really high statistic isn't there of businesses that just people that just give up in the first year because it's not happened and I always say to people who either clients or you know people within our business is you know if it was that easy everybody would be doing it so it can't be easy it's not going to be easy but it is going to be worth it yeah yeah I mean I think what what's some saying isn't there that you know if you do what's easy life will be hard if you do what's hard life will be easy eventually you know and it is it's not it isn't straightforward line either is it no no it's not I mean the entrepreneur's line it's like this isn't like the graph that you see it's like you're ecstatic because you've got a new client and we've got a new relationship then you know something else doesn't happen that you thought was in the bag it's so up and down and again um and I'm not very good at this personally but you know it's almost like you have to take the piece of peats and troughs out of it because other than that you're going to be up and down like somebody not right sort of thing um but I'm not particularly good at that because I get way too excited and

45:34yeah but it's great it's amazing if somebody has an idea and wants to do a business I would definitely say just go for it what's the worst that can happen and and also you're gaining experience that's going to be useful in life personally or professionally and you know you only live once so just go for it you never know it might be an amazing success but alicia no you don't have a life of regrets i wish i didn't giving it a go no at least you want to find out yeah exactly and you know you need to plan and you need to do all of that sort of build strong foundations make sure you've got a good idea but then yeah just just go for it yeah you started off talking when we started um early years obviously you know great parents both entrepreneurial business you know business owners do you think that influenced you as a kid into because it's funny how you've gone full circle haven't you really yeah you did the degree you got educated you went into big bigger businesses then you went onto sort of the agency side and now here you are full circle as an entrepreneur you know started your own business um as a co-founder and how do you think that early time of seeing your mum and dad were yeah i do yeah so yeah my dad had a curtains and blinds business and and sort of grew it through the recession in the 80s and then you know there was the pressure and the crash and he got had a little factory then he had to get rid of the factory and he built a really successful business but we saw the ups and downs of that very much you know when we didn't have any money and I remember finding a shopping list of my mum and she'd written all what she could afford to buy for the week you know it was like it was it must have been so difficult in the 80s with the recession and so on and you know we lived with him through recruiting people getting rid of people worrying about when he's going to get his next curtain order um yeah and then my mum had a little antique shop which she loved but yes I definitely yeah I think because I used to accompany them well I used to accompany with my dad on trips to fit the curtains and my mum in the little shop and everything so yeah I think yeah I think that's inbuilt in in in me I think and and and maybe definitely sparked something that one day I'd like to do it myself um because you're not limited are you I've always been excited by the fact that if you've got your own business you're not limited by you know anybody else's constraints it it can be as big as you want it to be if it works and you work hard enough and that that's really exciting to me and and creating an environment which is um you know where other people want to come to work as well is really important and our team we're really doing a lot to foster a nice community for them because sometimes you know they're working on their own in different environments or different countries and we really want to um for them to feel like they're part of a team as well so building something that other people want to come and work in is really important as well um yeah what i mean you lost your mom sadly years ago um lovely mom um but your dad's still with us yes um what does your dad say about you start yeah starting the business really excited yeah and also he's been a great um person to go to for advice so he's 80, he won't thank me for saying that, he's 81 I think, 81 years young, or 81 this year maybe you should know that, but yeah no he's great and I've gone to him with concerns and he's still there with his, you know, it's a great one to bounce off, yeah no I think he likes it that I'm doing something by myself like he did, yeah, and he took the leap because he was in a he was employed in a furniture shop and I've not you know it must have been a big leap of faith for him to set up his own business you know we were both young me and my brother and he did it and yeah I think yeah he was a brave bold brilliant person as well yes still is today yeah and we'll move on to some final questions but also you mentioned having a supportive partner so your husband Dave is you know teacher head deputy head education for most of his career and yet he's there by your side encouraging you on this crazy entrepreneurial journey and 100 % like you know backing you um which is so important isn't it really important you know to have Dave in your life really there yeah 100 % I don't think I could have done it if he wasn't a supporter as well because you know he's had to pick up the reins with the family and the kids and all the rest of it but but he yeah he always has my back and he's always been one to say just go for it again what's the worst that can happen just do it and he's also as we've hit sort of challenging times or I've questioned myself he's like you can do it keep going you're not giving up this is it and yeah so um yeah I'm very lucky to have him um pushing me onwards I think he's looking forward to retirement he just wants it yeah yeah yeah he's an alternative no but he's brilliant he's I couldn't wish for a more supportive partner oh god he's going to repeat this and have it on we'll have to edit that part out we'll see we'll see we'll see if he gets too big-headed we can always chop it out and then of course you know you have got you know got luca and you've got rosa um who are teenagers yeah but you know you've had you've been a working mum obviously you know you've got you've got tribe now but before that you were you had your own businesses early days when the kids were little and then you went back you know agency side so as a working mum what advice would you give to maybe other women that are thinking of well they might not even be starting their business you just might be wanting to have a really interesting career yeah and suffer with all of the challenges the juggling of you know kind of being a good mum and being a you know being able to be at home when needed but also being present you know any tips for working parents not just mums actually mums and dads where you feel like you're constantly juggling yeah yeah I mean it is a challenge especially when the younger I mean I've got my eldest is 14 youngest is 14 now and it's so much easier now but yeah um I just say keep going because it's important that you have your dream as well you know and and you know you can live your dream as well as facilitate the dreams of your kids and your partner or whatever so but I'd also I'd say don't sweat the small stuff you know the guilt is awful but you know but that I think sometimes the guilt is because we put so so silly levels of perfection that we're trying to reach in all of our paths in life so job home be an amazing partner be the best mum you can be and that that's just impossible so I think yeah if I was doing it all again I think I'd tell myself that a bit stronger that you know good enough is all right you know like it doesn't have to be perfect all the time and and you will have something will be going really well and the other thing won't be and then it changes and you know the work's going really well but home life is a bit of a challenge and everything is a phase and I think but what I would say just for women or men in business today trying to do something if it's your dream just you know there is a way to do it and balance everything um and yeah pat yourself on the back rather than sit there feeling guilty thinking I didn't do that so well today because you're just doing great juggling all of those things because it is a it is a is a challenge um but it's it's possible and And again, as I said, when we started really, it's a learning for the people around you as well.

53:13I like to think, and I'm not sure whether my kids would agree with this, but I've shown them that you can wear a lot of hats and things don't go right all the time. But overall, if you're going in a positive trajectory, then that's good. Or you're doing your best ultimately, then that's all anybody can ask of you. Yeah, amazing. And I mean, listen, you shared loads of great advice, both from a business point of view, brand point of view, kind of starting out. We've covered a lot, actually, in the time, which I knew we would, but it's been super interesting. Have you had any standout advice yourself over the years that's kind of really held you in good stead or, you know, helped you in a particular moment sometimes when someone just sort of stepped in and said, oh, you know, given some words of wisdom that have really helped you that you can pass on?

54:05well I would say I mean you're advised not to but in terms of like just to be consistent um to keep going step by step small that that's really resonated with me just keep doing small steps and you will get there um you know whether it's getting up in the morning making sure you go to your office you know if you're you know if you if you're on your own or whatever um just keep going every day and and you will get there I think I think that's that does resonate with me today you know when I'm thinking can I do this and whatnot um no just just keep going and believe in yourself I think you can do it believe in yourself yeah well I mean you yeah you've proven you've proven that time and time again haven't you you know with everything you've achieved yeah I'm really proud of you so I've got a few more questions I'm gonna I'm gonna ask you um a standout song or artist so just just giving you that as a as a little so you can think about it because we are uh as you know building our brave or brilliant playlist so we have to make sure we have your song or our and and artist on there um but if you were to describe this year in a word what would it be and why um and you can only have one emma so you don't be greedy and okay

55:22changeable I think yeah it's interesting yeah as in I feel as though I've squashed about two years into this year in terms of but that's because of the really exciting things happening in the business you know personally there's been quite a lot going on yeah so changeable but all good but I feel like life is sort of speeding up in a way and this has been a perfect opportunity but yeah but all great it's it's brilliant you want a business that's fast moving so it's it's great but yeah I would say definitely not steady but that's three words yeah so changeable changeable that's not so you can have that yeah but also I mean you you're operating in an environment that's extremely you know exactly the macro which I think always affects us yeah You've got multiple clients in different sectors at different stages of growth.

56:14So, yeah, I mean, that's, and as a business, you're making massive. Yeah, we're really locking down on what we're all about and the team's growing, which is really exciting. And, you know, yeah, it's really working, which is fantastic now. So we're seeing that with the number of, you know, exciting discussions we're having with businesses and brands. So it's really exciting. Yeah, I feel very blessed. to be in this position. And we'll see what next year's word is. So coming back to, I've got one last, I've got two questions then. First one is standout song, artist that you love. Might be the last song you play before you die or dance around the kitchen with the kids that just kind of uplifts you.

57:00Is there a song that you absolutely loved? And then I've got to say this, Jeanette, go on. I'm going to choose the song that, you know. I know it, go on. Only because. This is going to really annoy Jeanette Linfoot. So it's because you're gorgeous, baby bird. And the reason is that I used to play this every morning when I did live with Jeanette and it got really on her nerves. So I think she needs to have it on a playlist.

57:26So that will be mine, Jeanette. So you think of me whenever you've got your playlist. I always think of because you're gorgeous. I think I know all the words. No, I'm well chuffed with that. Absolutely. the legacy continues so last question what does brave bold brilliant mean to you emma brave bold brilliant it means believing in yourself and having the confidence to go for it and making your dream happen what a way to end thank you thank you thank you so much it's been lovely to chat i really hope you've enjoyed this episode of brave bold brilliant remember check out our new website www.brave-bold-brilliant.com you're going to find loads of resources on there that's going to help you with your leadership journey and with the businesses that you're trying to scale up and grow so take care everyone and remember there are no limits to your growth but it is by being brave and bold that you're going to unlock your brilliant