Forging Resilience: How Aaron Hill Turned Military Challenges Into a Journey of Self-Discovery and Personal Growth

0:08Well, welcome back to Brave Bobber and I'm Jeanette Linford, entrepreneur, advisor, investor and your host. Now, over the past 30 years, I've built a career across multiple industries, leading global businesses, scaling companies and investing in ventures that change lives and through my work as Jeanette Linfoot Associates and Brave Bold Brilliant I now help ambitious leaders and entrepreneurs unlock growth embrace bold strategies and create the success they truly deserve you know and this podcast Brave Bold Brilliant is where I bring you those lessons through conversations with extraordinary people who have faced challenges reinvented themselves and achieved incredible things.

0:54And today I am joined by Aaron Hill, former UK special forces operative turned resilience coach and host of his own podcast, Forging Resilience. You know, and after years in elite military service, Aaron now dedicates his life to helping high performers, you know, really reclaim balance, lead with authenticity and embrace emotional intelligence as a superpower you know and his mission is to redefine resilience not as endurance but a self-awareness and from inner strength so from the battlefield of and to boardrooms Aaron's journey will inspire you to lead with clarity compassion and courage so let's get into the episode.

1:43I am delighted that I am joined by the incredible Aaron Hill here on Brave Bold Brilliant. Aaron, nice to see you.

1:51Aaron Hill:Nice to be here. Thank you very much for this invitation. I'm very honoured, very honoured to be here and speak to you today, Jeanette, again. Again, again. You see, we're doing a collab cast. That's what we're doing. How cool. Yeah, yeah. Tit for tat in terms of the podcast. So, yeah, I love it. Great idea. Absolutely. So we first met a few months ago at the Reset Summit with the wonderful Rick Moylan. Again, we've got to give him a shout out for that fabulous event he put on. And you were on stage, I was on stage, and then we just kind of clicked, didn't we, and said, hey, you're a podcaster, so am I, let's go on each other's shows.

2:26So that is lovely when that happens, I think.

2:28Aaron Hill:Definitely, yeah. There's always an interesting story to people, and I love to try and draw those out. and there's so much, just an interesting conversation with an interesting person is enough for me. And then when we add our experiences and our value and our stories into it, and when that's put out in the right way, it can be incredibly powerful and moving and motivating for people. So yeah, it was a done deal for me. It was meant to be. It was meant to be. We're exactly where we're meant to be, Aaron, at this point of time, which we were talking about earlier. Now, your big thing is around resilience, right?

3:05And obviously you've got your incredible podcast, Forging Resilience, and it's really a powerful word, which we're going to get into in a lot more detail, Aaron. But I want to take you back a little bit for the benefit of our listeners, really, around the early years, you know, and that time you spent a significant part of your career in the military, in the special forces specifically. basically um and a lot of people will be daunted by that they might think oh my gosh Aaron Hill special forces you know because there is a reputation there is a brand around special forces and of course the incredible work that you do and the danger that you put yourselves into being in the special forces so just take us back what led up to you actually joining the military and in particular special forces so we can understand the link back to resilience which

3:53Aaron Hill:is what we're going to spend a big part of today talking about yeah so i guess um i'm the oldest of four um my parents are constantly encouraging us to be outside and play constantly taking us out into the woods um for adventures or walks or picnics much to our um the dislike you know and and resistance there but um so there's definitely something about the outdoors and adventure that that appealed to me. The military was always something that was interesting to me as a, as a young lad, even though I didn't really have much military background in our family. My great grandfather served during the second world war, but he never really spoke about that.

4:34Aaron Hill:But it's always something that intrigued me. And I guess at a young and fragile age of 14, 15, 16, the adverts, I became aware of the adverts in magazines like FHM or, or even in the cinema, to be honest, around the Royal Marines, which really appealed to me. And that was my first stepping stone really into the military is applying as a 19 year old after college to do Royal Marines training. And then after five years, try and complete the selection process for UK Special Forces, which I did. So, yeah, it seemed like a natural progression, something that I saw as a massive challenge and thought, I wonder if I can do that.

5:12Aaron Hill:And so, yeah, I just kept on trying, really. and how tough is it to get in the special forces Aaron because it's only a very very small proportion of of people that get in right to the special forces it's a pretty rigorous demanding um selection process isn't it yeah I think so I think a lot of people select themselves though so they'll either talk themselves in or out of it um and I think something that I can look back on now is something we've talked about is that that internal driver that motivation burns very very strong in a lot of us young lads that went for that and not always is it sustainable but it will get you results so my my desire was to to to be acknowledged and recognized for the things i'd done and a bit like see me love me um nothing's gone wrong by the way it's just my perception of how I had to be in the world to be recognized um so that burnt really bright and obviously got me some really great results in terms of passing certain courses of which selection was one of them so yeah it is quite challenging um but it's nothing it's mystified a little bit which is okay um but it's it's just a case of turning up each day and and doing sometimes quite mundane long long days uh physical days um and most people like I say talk themselves out of it they don't want it that much so they find an excuse not to be there or a reason and that's absolutely fine um it's not for everyone um so yeah it was challenging but you know i look back on those days very very very very fondly yeah well i mean all of those experiences that you had will have led to you being where you are today and and and how you've grown and shaped as a person i think through it as well and and you know what where did you spend most of your time when you're in special forces yeah so we were operational all over the place really but I was I was in from I joined the military I joined the Royal Marines in 99 I left out in 2009 so the all the normal hot spots that that people served in during those times um yeah both with the Marines and and with special forces so um but we were constantly rotated so there's always a cycle so you'd spend a certain amount of your time away then you'd spend a certain amount of your time training then a different type of role and then you go back into operations again so it's always cyclical and I was all over the place with with my with my unit as well so yeah the the normal places during that that that time really is most people can do the maths to work that out yeah exactly and obviously you know you'll have seen a lot of stuff and things that you wouldn't want to necessarily be talking about in detail on on a podcast but all of the experiences I guess have led you to this core topic and this powerful word of resilience that we're going to talk about and explore in a lot more detail but is that where you built your resilience in the military Aaron or has your resilience kind of evolved and and and been impacted post-military because I guess both have influenced kind of where you are personally.

8:29So maybe just share us a little bit how that's played out for you in terms of your resilience in service and post coming out of Special Forces.

8:39Aaron Hill:Yeah, so I think what would be helpful then is to define what resilience is. And for me, resilience today is the ability to learn from a situation and adapt to it, to respond rather than react, especially during setback, failure or challenge so it's not something that I was really aware of when I was younger and it's only through self-exploration and coaching and therapy and personal development that I became aware of this a lot later on, so probably early, well just before I turned 40 really and it's something I realised actually this is a trait that I have within me which is quite it's not unique but it's very powerful for me so that's what resilience is I would say there's definitely parts of it that I had learnt in the military but that was probably more grit and that was the capacity to turn up and endure which for me resilience is not that we don't have to brave something out or tough something out um if it's at the detriment or of our own health or relationship or well-being so yeah i wouldn't have known how to express that as a as a young 20 year old in the military um or even when i left um but there's definitely ability to to to withstand um you know and keep keep showing up i mean that's part part of the course in the marines as well it's how long can you be wet cold and hired for without wanting to be somewhere else um and it's not exactly it's not rocket science in that sense but it does take a certain desire to to want to be there and and withstand those yeah sometimes the natural elements and then sometimes the enforced uh tasks that you're required to carry out be that exercise or a march or a certain amount of weight on your back or whatever it might be so um it's only in my latter part of my life have I really become aware of it and really adapted to it.

10:46Aaron Hill:And because business, as you know, is very different to sometimes, well, entrepreneurship is very different to structured business or being within a company or organisation when we're on our own. I think that's fascinating, Aaron, because the perception probably of someone looking at you in your life would probably think that all your resilience was built during the military years. But actually, this is interesting that it's only really since then that you've had that time to reflect and almost, I suppose, discover what resilience means for you and therefore how it can translate for other people.

11:23Because I think you're right, the word resilience is perceived as thick skin, endurance, tough it out regardless, keep going. But actually, there's a much softer side, shall we say, a more human, emotional side to resilience that I think you're now leaning into from what you've just described. Would that be fair to say, Aaron?

11:46Aaron Hill:Yeah, 100%. Yeah, 100%. So in terms of things that came up for me in the military, I wouldn't have had the tools, and sometimes it's not the environment, to be leaning into those things. So yeah, a lot of that, as men do quite well, and quite a lot of humans do as well, we just push it down and deal with that another day, or if at all. which is okay each to their own but it definitely wasn't serving me so and i think there's a there's a truth to when you're in a certain organization when you live at a certain pace of life or when you are constantly hustling or grinding those words make me vomit by the way um then then there isn't the time to reflect then there isn't that time for the the silent powerful voice that comes from within not in our head but from within of this is this is the next step or we could do well to look at this or you need to slow down or you're enough or you're okay so yeah that the time away from those sorts of environments to be able to reflect and look back and learn is is what's what's led me to be able to lean into those sorts of more human skills and natural attributes that we all have I think so So when you're in those really stressful and serious situations, then, Aaron, what I was hearing from you before was that when you were in the military, in the special forces, almost you didn't allow that inner voice to necessarily pop up too much because you've just got to get on and deal with what you need to deal with.

13:28But that's quite a protracted long period of time that you're in those moments. So how what alternative coping mechanisms did you actually have to lean into instead, do you think, in order to get through and to be able to perform? And because, I mean, literally do the wrong thing, people die. I mean, this is genuinely life and death situations that you're in in those roles that you've had. So what were your coping mechanisms then during that time, would you say?

13:58Aaron Hill:Exercise and alcohol, probably. um it was it was a distraction from but i didn't know any different no this is my me personally so there's just a young lad on a on a massive adventure suddenly i'm living it um i would say that the voices that i did hear in my head in the sense of the the the way of dealing where it was a constant inner critic so i was always comparing myself to the next man to see where i stood up you know am i enough am i fast enough am i quick enough am i doing it this well enough or not and And there was never, I never was. And so it was very, very judgmental. But yeah, I was young.

14:36Aaron Hill:I had no tools or awareness. And I wasn't aware of a coping mechanism. I think if I was going to say one thing, it might have been mountain biking that used to put me into nature. But there was still a physical element there, which is still important to me to this day is that movement of my body. and and I think a lot of people can live like this and we've spoke about your experience of burnout that you can live like this but it comes at a cost and either you'll pay a relationship will pay business will pay or the team will pay etc etc so it's not uncommon as far as I'm concerned yeah so people can go for years and years just in this sort of pattern sort of learned behavior just carry on those habits that they have to get them through like you say whether it's alcohol whether it's exercise or whatever and quite lonely quite a lonely place to be you're part of a team but but then i don't know if you're not do people talk did you talk to anyone about anything yeah yeah no not really just get on with it not really it's just an adventure it's just i didn't know any different um i'm not sure many of us did that that was the culture it's not a criticism I think we need to remember why the military is there is to do a job that's quite on the pointy end of things and if it's something I could speak about doing better it'd be to help complete that loop so to give guys and girls the tools to be able to manage what has come up for them during their service and when they step away from from that organization but that could be the true for for so many organizations I think it's a much more a wider picture society and but the military sometimes accelerates that process because of yeah certain environments or potentially things that are seen so yeah so but my life is very like in different chunks there's lots of overlap so I see the military is one I didn't have the wisdom or awareness when I was when I was that age and that morphed into the security industry where I was for 10 years with similar sort of people doing similar sort of roles in similar sort of countries and it was only latter part of my life where I've been gifted this opportunity to look inwards and just get to gently question things yeah to raise my awareness of what's really going on under the hood if you are enjoying this conversation with Alan Hill now is the perfect time to subscribe to brave bold brilliant you know and it's by joining our community that you're going to gain access to strategies insights and stories that will help you scale your career and your business unlock those new opportunities and live life on your terms so hit subscribe today so you don't miss those conversations that could genuinely change your future i think that's what you're just talking about there as you as you were as you were speaking and I was thinking about reinvention, right?

17:41And that actually you can have multiple careers, multiple professional aspects to your life, multiple relationships, personal as well, of course. But, you know, so we don't have to just be one thing. You know, it's what we do. It's not who we are, but the journey of who we become on that path, I think is the fascinating part. So for you, Aaron, you came out of the military, you went into security, like you say, again, 10 years, that's a good chunk of time, but you were surrounded by a similar type of type of people and what I often see and I'm interested in your perspective on this is when people have been in doing a certain role or maybe a very high performance um role whether it's in athletics sports whether it's you know running a business and then when they step out of that very often I think people struggle with identity purpose why do I exist you know and certainly I've been on my own kind of personal journey at different stages but for you did you did you feel comfortable and know your new purpose if you like at those three different stages and and how did you reconnect with you Aaron non-special forces person, Aaron Hill on Civvy Street kind of thing.

19:02What was your experience with that big change? And also any words of advice for anyone that might be struggling with a transition of finding themselves and their new purpose?

19:13Aaron Hill:Yeah, there's a lot there. So I think, I think, I think what the first thing that would come to say to me is this was I recognised that it was something I did. it wasn't all of who I am um so probably and not that that's a positive thing because I didn't see ever see myself as good enough I I yeah I could convince you that I fell through those six months and just happened to be accidentally one of the the 12 of 190 something by accident which isn't true um so yeah my identity was never really completely wrapped around my job um I think the biggest thing that accelerated me learning about myself was somebody gifting me the opportunity to look inward like I said so I had help doing that um through coaching which brought up so much from many things that happened during my time in the military which I talked about on stage and i'm happy to share here as well that that led into deep held beliefs about myself that i've never questioned um and it was learning to express and i say learning because i still am my my wants needs and desires and and being um okay with stepping into those and working through the harmony of when it's okay i'm not okay but when when it's time to lean into more of me or more for my family or my clients or whatever it might be so it's a continual process that's ever evolving and changing the the key thing for me is the help and support and it feels horrific at first to talk about certain things uncomfortable emotions or experiences but my belief and my personal story is that there's so much gold and wisdom and insight and freedom in there that it's it's i don't know you'd be you know i was gonna go fucking stupid not to really for me yeah um and so yeah it's something i still get encouraged to do is i pay for my own coaches um and therapists because yeah i'm still getting to learn to know myself at 46 years of age yeah well i i think that's true i i certainly share that that opinion aaron you know that i think we're we're almost peeling back the layers of an onion to a certain degree you know and and once you pill one layer back then something else appears or pops up that maybe we buried or we've just not seen in that kind of context so you know I think that is brilliant advice actually and it does take bravery to go and do that it does absolutely yeah do you know what though I don't think it does I think for me personally it takes courage bravery for me is when there's not fear whereas for me courage is having all of that experience but taking that step or asking for that help or talking about that thing or selling the business or leaving the business or whatever it might be um that for me that is courage um yeah that takes courage i mean i guess it's open to our own personal interpretations but to to because i think with bravery my assumption is then if i look at certain colleagues of mine that did incredible things in incredibly difficult circumstances that I was mistaking their brave and I never felt brave when really I, through conversation, they were courageous.

22:41And I recognize that sometimes in day-to-day life,

22:47Aaron Hill:it's easier to be courageous or there's more opportunity to step into courageous moments or decisions or conversations than there is. It's brave. Brave seems spectacular and rescuing kids from burning buildings and all that sort of stuff but sometimes it can just courageous can be saying i was wrong i am sorry um let's how can we how can we repair this that's not very comfortable to do and with that whole heart thumping or leaving your job or or ending the relationship whatever it might be it doesn't necessarily have to be easy or bernie building or or not feel fear so yeah well i guess courage is quite yeah important to me yeah yeah no hey listen i mean and you're right you know However you define it, it requires a step change, doesn't it?

23:32It requires an openness to make a move like that, however far on the spectrum that might be. And Aaron, I think what I love about you is that you, there's lots of things I love about you, but the one thing that I really love about you is that you tell it as it is. You keep it very real. You're very open about your own personal experiences, within reason of course because there are confidentialities around around kind of what you used to do professionally um but nonetheless you're quite an open book and you're there to help and support and guide each other's and you mentioned about through that coaching experience that you've had and you continue to have that there were two sort of elements and one around certain events and things that happen during during your life maybe not just military actually since as well um that that that kind of popped up for you shall we say and then there was around the beliefs that you held on yourself of yourself so would you mind sharing some of those with us because when you spoke at reset it was incredibly powerful i had goosebumps actually as you were talking though genuinely um and i think it was cold in there you're right it wasn't cold in there it was warm in there but i still had goosebumps as you were talking so yeah if you could just sort of add a bit of flavor for that, Aaron, because I think it's going to really help people listening to put it into context of something that's a real example, a lived example from yourself.

24:58Yeah.

24:59Aaron Hill:So I think the point of this story then before I start is the meaning that we give it without challenging it. So unchallenged beliefs. so I early on in in my career when we were operational in a hot and dusty country one of my first exposures to a gunfight I began to shut down so my whole world started to literally close and tunnel down everything was black apart from this incident that was happening just in front of me um and bearing in mind that we spent a lot of our time and lives training for these sorts of things i put an incredible burden of um and self-judgment on myself for not reacting how i thought i should have in that moment and so i self-labeled myself as a coward and then all the other bollocks i hear heaped upon myself and um around that not good enough oh it's just another example of failures and then my mind could find them because I was looking for them wherever I looked and again through nothing really going wrong just life so the the point is this that that story it's not about the incident it's about what I made it mean which was I'm a coward I'm not worthy and probably if it went really not really lovable I couldn't accept myself so when I got to when I got to speak about it and the thing is I didn't really have to go that into much detail my coach was able to pick up certain words or or or phrases that i was using that i'd well he and so i i was a coward as something along those lines as i said when who said that and i had to think who did say that who did say that nobody said that that come from me and so we went to carry on exploring that a little bit more i can still feel that that weight come up within me but also I recognize that I got to put that that burden that self-criticism down to the side it's still there I can't change anything that happened on that day but my response to it my perspective of it I can and so through that I learned that I could be really really compassionate to a very very frightened young 25 year old who thought he was closer to the death than life and that is just how my body responded on that day um yeah and and so yeah i got to challenge that belief and and bring it into the light of day um and it was quite liberating um you know i don't i can't change it like i said but i can learn to accept it happened um it's one of those things and i think so if i was to apply that to everyday life it's it's yeah it's those sort of things because not all of us get to be in those situations and that's okay nor do you want to be but um challenging beliefs we don't really get to do that for ourselves because we're so accused uh accustomed or used to the language that we use that it takes somebody else to shine that mirror back up to us and that's where i believe coaching mentors teammates um yeah therapists uh do such a good job um it helps reflect back to us another a possibility yeah and i i love that that's super powerful because um one how incredible for you to re reframe reframe you i guess is is to a certain degree that you've done through all this this work you've done on yourself right and and how do you see yourself now aaron compared to how you used to see yourself what what are the the beliefs you have about yourself today versus and how that shifted maybe yeah that's a great question I think yeah first thing I'm drawn to say is credit to my my friend and coach Johnny Bevan who who was looking for practice clients and didn't really know what he's getting himself into and in terms of all the the shit that I brought up for that boy to deal with but what a fantastic job he did in holding that space and creating that area of of trust for me to be able to learn from that.

29:10So yeah, I know I'm not a coward. I'm a leader.

29:15Aaron Hill:I'm compassionate. I'm courageous. I shine the light. I speak my truth in my way. And I'm still learning how to do that. I'm still very human. I still feel fear. I still get nervous before I record my podcast as you know um it just reminds me I'm alive um and I think the biggest thing is that I have it's I still struggle but I I ask for help a lot quicker rather than trying to manage stuff on my own be that my my own personal stuff stuff in my relationship with my wife or or even business you know I say listen I have mentors and coaches which isn't always comfortable um so yeah i feel i would say physically when you see me i probably stand up a bit taller because i'm more comfortable with with myself so i'm already a tall lad but i it's a certain there's a certain there's a certain um posture or way that i hold myself which just just i'm okay i'm comfortable yeah i'm enough i think is yeah yeah that that well that i I mean, listen, how wonderful is that to have gone through that journey of self-discovery, you know, and we're all on it, aren't we?

30:28It's just, I suppose, you have to have that openness to want to peel back the layers, open Pandora's box and face some of this stuff, you know, because all we can choose to keep it buried. And probably a lot of people do. And there's no judgment in that, because maybe for some people, that's the only way that they can cope with whatever's going on in their world. So we're not suggesting it's for everyone, but if it is for you, then you can really, really lean into that and see what happens, see what comes from it with no expectation, I guess, as well. Right.

31:02Aaron Hill:yeah definitely and so that again if i fast forward was that what does that look like that looks like me now then um some of the benefits of being more comfortable are i speak three languages english is one of them um that didn't come easy making loads of mistakes i was going to be really rude then but i'm not um you saying things that are really inappropriate accidentally in conversation trying to make a conversation in Spanish and Catalan just getting one slip of a word. I've started a podcast which has had impact on people's lives. I know that because I've had a little bit of feedback. I coach people.

31:44Aaron Hill:I help change their lives. I ask for things that I want. Don't always get them but I don't make it mean anything about me. So I'm able to take the steps that I want to or more steps that I want to in my life for me. And then the benefit of that is that I'm a kinder father. I'm a more focused coach. I'm a more loving, understandable partner. Yeah, and there's a ripple effect to that, I believe. Yeah, 100%. I mean, I always talk, as you know, I talk about leading yourself, leading your teams, leading the business in the business context. But your team could be your family, right? And the business might be the business of your life.

32:23So even if you're not in business, there's always three elements. But I think what was springing into my mind as we were talking then, Aaron, was very much around put your own oxygen mask on first. Because unless you're in good shape, you cannot be the best for your loved ones, the people around you, the clients that you have. Because how can you be if you're not in good shape yourself? And I think that is often a lesson for all of us that it's not selfish to be selfish.

32:51Aaron Hill:Yeah, yeah, it's selfless. yeah yeah and that comes down to boundaries work and boundaries work usually starts with our nearest and dearest and sometimes the in-laws which is really uncomfortable because there's there's there's conversations that that get to be had around expectations and reality or beliefs or values um and yeah i know for me living in spain culturally there's there's some quite big differences and that's led to some really interesting conversations um not always comfortable either um about so for example just a little example about um expectations around kids and how how i'd like my kids to be um uh educated or reinforced by by my family and and i'm not anal about it but i at least i've expressed my opinion on what is okay to talk about and what is not okay so i'm not yeah yeah i'm not really making much sense yeah so so so rather than only rewarding little little example only rewarding the outcome for me it's much more importantly effort um yeah and not personalizing certain things and i think i think that's right you know you talked about setting boundaries and expectations and having real conversations you know because i think one of the things again you know resilience and and and how you frame resilience and how you help different people whether they're in business you know wait a minute whether it's the boardroom or whether it's individual people that you deal with and you're coaching, you're helping.

34:21I think very often, sometimes we're afraid to have the conversations that need to be had. And so resilience and empathy and the more emotional human side of resilience, I think is an interesting angle that I'd like to explore now with you, Aaron, is how does that resilience in that context allow people to have those challenging conversations, to have those conversations that often we put off? You know, maybe, you know, and I always think, God, how many relationships could have been saved if only, you know, a couple had talked to each other? How often, and I've done it, kept a poor performer on the team because you're just hoping that they get better and they never do, and then it ends up becoming a problem.

35:08You know, but if we actually had the courage and the resilience to have difficult conversations in the right way, how much better the world would be as a result of that before things get too far. So what's your experience of that, both yourself personally, Aaron, but also professionally? And you kind of touched on it a little bit there around boundaries and expectations. But, yeah, difficult conversations. How do you have them? When do you have them? Any advice?

35:38Aaron Hill:Yeah, again, I think my go to would be to ask somebody for some help and support because we can, I also can build an incredible story up in my own head and not even a third of it is reality. Into arguments and fallouts and discussions and plates getting smashed and all sorts. And really, it might not be anything like that. So I think having that external support that can help give a bit of feedback from a non-emotional perspective and discuss things through is always helpful. Again, teammates, mentors, coaches, therapists, bosses, you know, trusted people like that are great examples. So that would allude to maybe a bit of planning or actually being very clear on what it is you want to say and why.

36:29Aaron Hill:and I think the interesting part though is the empathy thing so talking about this is what I'm experiencing in this situation this is how it's affecting me or my team or the relationship rather than pointing the finger straight at you're doing all this wrong you're doing that and so that comes with a bit of practice and preparation and I really think it comes down to starting that conversation there's no perfect time and it's listening to understand the the other person and asking them questions to understand their perspective or position so if i give a real quick example my in-laws like to give uh quite a lot of sweet treats and snacks to my kids um and through a discussion i found that um what did they say it was something along the lines of You're not letting me be a grandparent to them, which I found really interesting just because I didn't want them to have a donut at seven o 'clock at night just before they're about to have their dinner, whatever it might be, you know, something like that.

37:34Aaron Hill:So that I could see that they were kind of because that's what everybody does, quote unquote. And so that allowed me to see that they don't feel involved with the kids. So maybe I can let them spend more time with the kids and let them know, OK, today you can. today's not a great time because they're back they need to go to bed early because they've got school or rugby or basketball tomorrow whatever it is their sports so there's no perfect time get some help and listen to understand the other person's perspective as well as empathetically communicating yours so that that's my own small personal experience there and in terms of clients yeah I think one of my first clients, this always sticks out in my mind, he was talking about really, really high pressure job.

38:28Aaron Hill:He's building his own business. His team was doing really well, but there's more and more work to be done. And there started to be a bit of friction in the leadership team, of which he was there as well. And he was talking about communication. So he was spending less time at home, putting off a certain conversation with his wife but it was his wife who wasn't communicating so yeah we just peeled back the layers of his wife not communicating and really is only in the house at this time sometimes for one hour to see his wife before we fell into bed before getting up to go to work the next day he's too tired to talk didn't want to talk and actually who was it that wasn't communicating um so again we just brought that out into the light of day and had had a gentle look at it from another perspective and yeah spoke about how he was feeling rather than pointing the fingers we structured and planned a little bit some of the beliefs that he had we got to challenge so which allowed him to yeah primarily communicate with himself then with his wife and then there's other knock-on effects and benefits that that that had in his work as well well yeah i i love all of that that's so that's so much great advice and I guess you know it's coming from a position of curiosity and why what why is someone behaving that way or why is is this you know important to both of us and I guess the point is you're trying to resolve something you're trying to get a positive outcome and then I listen to a lot of Tony Robbins and I think there's one time something that stuck in my mind that he said he said well do you want to be right or do you want to have a relationship right and and it doesn't it doesn't mean to say you should avoid the conversation but do it in the right way which is what you're saying and do it with respect and curiosity and kindness and with a view to getting a better outcome not just to prove a point and to point the finger yeah and i really love that but it does say it's hard isn't it and i mean the more you do the better you get at it but still it's always going to be hard definitely i mean i yeah Yeah, 100%.

40:37Aaron Hill:So I, for a while, my wife and I did couples therapy, which is really, really beneficial. I absolutely loved it. And something I always remember our 80 year old therapist talking about was, it's not about what I think is right, he says holding a fist and my wife thinks is right, and then like clashing heads until one person gives up or bleeds out. it's about finding what works from both of our sides and creating our own formula, not one winner, one loser, it's how can we both take our own values especially when it comes to certain things that are closer to home, which will have a knock-on effect in how we shop at work as well and for our teams, how can we take something that works and you only get, like you said by listening and getting at something that serves everybody there, not just one person or that person get their own.