From Rags to Riches: How Nigel Lovering Built Multiple Businesses from Nothing

27:11Well, actually, it's all you're doing is working harder. Yeah. And I love this story because it resonates for me. So the rugby club wrote to me, will you sponsor the first team? And I said, no, I'll sponsor them. But I said, international day is a big day in Wales. I said, I need 10 youth players. Now, bear in mind, these boys are 18, 19. I said, back in the day, right, they used to wear blazers, ties, white shirts. And I said, I want them in white shirts, blazers and ties. And I said, I'll sponsor them. But they've got to serve beer all day and they'll get paid for it. 10 of them turned up, right?

27:46They were great. But what I didn't bank on, the parents turned up, the girlfriends turned up, their aunties and uncles turned up, the rest of the team turned up. I had a full pub. Yeah. So they served right for the day and we put food out. I remember one of them saying, nice, you're not going to tell my mother I'm washing dishes, you. But the point of this is, right, it became their home. Every weekend they'd be there, their parents would be there. I never had to advertise or go put pans on because they were there. It was their pub. And I remember some undesirable. We never had any problems there.

28:18Some undesirables come in one day and there's about 10 boys. They said, nice, leave that to us. They're not coming in. So it became their pub, you know, and it was by a complete accident of, they loved the fact that they had the opportunity to work. Yeah, yeah. The parents were really proud of them. I know it was only collecting glasses, serving beer and the people there having drinks and just tipped them every day. Every round, we had a big raffle for them and they made quite a bit of money and we'd done that for a couple of years.

28:48International dates. I made a lot of friends from that and still speak to them now if I ever see them, you know. And I thought, God, that was such an easy thing to do. But people don't realise they came from nowhere. I'm still very proud of that, that we had a bus pub that was packed all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was sitting behind the bar. I can see that. You can. I can see that. And, you know, we were talking earlier about building really great teams before we pressed record and how important, you know, you've got a great team here in the business, but you also have quite a unique business model as well with the way that you keep your overhead quite tight with the business, the central cost.

29:25but you have this sort of wide group of engineers that are really well treated. So talk a little bit around your approach to building good teams and great teams, Nigel, because someone that's listening to this, they may be on their entrepreneurial journey, they may be starting to build a team and think about how do they get the best out of people. And it isn't always easy. We all make mistakes. Of course we do. Yeah, I've made mistakes. But still, we might hire the wrong person or whatever. This happens. But for you, what's been successful, do you think, with the people side of it that's really made a difference to your business to be able to scale as well, not just start the smaller business?

30:03Okay. Somebody very successful once told me, Nigel, only employ people better than yourself. So that was the first thing, right? And with me, that's not difficult. I've got my skills. I know my skill sets, right? We need techies. We need people that can develop, produce, and work to that scale, right? I can't. So I always went for the best ones. I'm paying them the most money. So in the industry, I pay people more money than they get in any other company. But we keep it small, right? And they've got to work hard. So the fact that they're well rewarded, I think, helps. Because they couldn't sort of leave me and go to a company down the road for more money.

30:47Because it just wouldn't happen. So people don't tend to leave the business. But equally, they look after the business. because they know they're working hard and they will tell me if we take somebody they want, no, we don't want him here or her, whatever the case may be. They're not pulling their weight. They're late. They're not doing things. So they've got their own culture. Okay, yes. They've got their own culture. I don't want them to let me down, but maybe not letting the business down. And they know that they get treated very well. Yeah. I treat them with the same respect I expect back.

31:24And if we need somebody better, they'll tell me, where are we going wrong? What have we got to do? What's the new thing on the market? What is going on here? So is this business scalable? It's very scalable. It's about a scalable business. That's when I went back and I looked at what we've done, right? Every single business in the world needs telecoms and IT. Absolutely, yeah. And the business and the industry, I think it's probably the fastest moving industry in the world, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, when I talk about payphones, people probably listening to this podcast wouldn't even know what a payphone is I remember those very well and then we had broadband then we had wifi so it's developing at such a speed you know BT you're phasing out all the lines now the ISDN in the next two years massive opportunities for people huge get in there right and take that business and embrace it and you've got exciting things coming haven't you we have So we've always had to rely on people like BT, Verizon to use their networks.

32:27The boys here have developed their own telephone system called BT Connect. So basically now it's a VoIP system. It's scalable to any level. We can sell that to anyone, any business whatsoever. And we can be very cost effective because of our overhead and because of the way we run the business. But it is very exciting. we've got nearly 600 customers we've changed over now in the next three months before we can really grow to market it because we need to do that first. You know, look after people we've got first. Yeah, yeah. The other thing I'd done a couple of years ago, I'd done something called an EOT, which is particularly the British call, an Employee Ownership Trust, right?

33:07So the employees own the business. They can now get, they get the£3 ,500 a year tax-free, which we do in July and December for them. And that's the minimum they get, but that's the bit that's tax-free. So they get their holidays paid for, they get their Christmas paid for, which they love. There's no risk. I took the risk, so I put the money in to pay for it. The more money we make, the more money they make. And as a business owner, I can get my money out tax-free. Now, there's a lot of big telecoms companies out there, right? I just reckon I get one letter or one email a month if you want to sell your business.

33:44because the bigger companies, as you know, grow by acquisition. Yep, absolutely. They can't grow generically. It's acquisition. Yeah. So we had a little pearl, weren't we? We had a pearl there thinking, they look at our books. God, we can buy them, but they can't because it's not for sale and I still enjoy coming to work. Yeah, yeah. So that's not on the cards for you then, Nigel, at the moment. No, I wouldn't dream of it. I love it. I know, you know, you should, about loyalty. These people have been loyal to me and they're very good workers. They are growing the business. Yeah. And equally, if I did sell it now, I'd have to pay 50 % tax.

34:15Whereas with an EOT, you get all your money out tax-free. So if it was half price, I'd still be better off. Yeah. You're getting a lesson in tax planning here, everyone. Which is important. Motivating the team, though. Absolutely. And I think the other thing that I think is interesting, you said, you know, they're loyal to you. They're loyal to the business because this is a business that they have built with you. So it's been with, hasn't it? Not for. Oh, absolutely. And do you know the other thing, right? the jobs are not around as they were. True. I mean, when I grew up, I'm telling you in the 70s, manufacturing, anybody could walk to any job anywhere.

34:50Yeah. Unfortunately, every manufacturing business, right, that we've dealt with is no longer there. I'm talking big Sony's, the Panasonic's. We won that business. So they were great customers. And all of a sudden, there's nothing left in the area. Yeah. So it's a two-way street, isn't it? They know their jobs are going to be safe because I'm going to do that. But equally, I know the business is in safe hands. Yeah, they'll be loyal and you're in it together, aren't you? Yeah. At the end of the day. And, you know, Nigel, this site that you've got here, so you've got the big telecoms business and that's been a huge success story, but also a massive, you know, highs, lows, not easy, risk, you know, everything that comes along with that.

35:34And then you've diversified, you know, as well. you've got other businesses having you now. You've got this big site here that we're on, which you bought. I mean, that was a massive risk, right? Yeah. How big is this? 40-acre industrial park. Huge. Our biggest building is 200 ,000 square foot. We've got 11 ,000, 20 ,000 square foot sheds, five office blocks. This was empty. This was a big, big risk. Yeah. But I knew I could make it work. knew I could make it work and I think people were put off by the size of it so I went out and I've got a business partner and this is David Pickering, we went out and basically knocked doors do you need sheds, do you need storage so we've got some great companies in here now and we've restored death records we've got some great haulage companies we've got the MOD here we're storing lots of high security stuff because it's a high security site But that was a big risk.

36:35And if that had gone badly wrong, I think, yeah, I don't think any of my family would have been speaking to me now. But again, it comes back to the appetite for risk, right? You've got the entrepreneur's bit, but you knocked on doors. You said you knocked on doors. So we've gone full circle back to the early days of being in the sales vibe and actually making it work. You do whatever's needed to make it work, right? It was going to work. It had to work. Yeah. Paying wasn't an option, right? Yeah, absolutely. But I knew that we could, I had a good idea we could make it work. And I think that's important in business, isn't it?

37:05Absolutely. Yeah. And you said, Nigel, you started off earlier saying that school wasn't necessarily a thing for you. Education, you came out of school. I used to go to games on a Friday afternoon and a Monday. But so did most of my mates. None of them went to university. Nobody went to university then. It didn't happen. I'm still friends with a lot of them. none of them have ever been able to work they've all worked all their lives yeah um probably a lot of them a lot brighter than me as well um so yeah i'm quite proud of them and you know we meet up occasionally we've got a whatsapp going um but again they were all rugby players football players it's a sport again sport honestly i think sport has become my always has been my politics yeah yeah absolutely so someone that might be starting in business today in whatever sector, what advice would you give to a young entrepreneur that's, you know, a little bit maybe nervous, not got a lot of experience, but really has a desire to want to, you know, to put themselves out in the world and create a business?

38:16What are some of the nuggets of advice that you would give to someone starting out? I suppose, right? Look at your own strengths. Like, I knew my strengths were selling. Yeah. And I knew that's what I could do the most, right? But equally, they might be technical. I can't sell. So then they need good salespeople, don't they? Yes. So it's looking at yourself. What are my strengths? Where am I best suited? I mean, I'm no good here, really. I'm best not being in the office coming in with deals. But that might not be that person. It might be just get up and work. Give yourself your tags. Don't stop until you succeed.

38:50And you can make it succeed if you've got the product, if you've got the desire, if you've got the will. You're going to win, aren't you? Yeah, 100%. It's going to happen. 100 times out of 100. Yeah. And you will get those little bits of luck. The Holland and Barrett with the big company going bust. And I tell my, any salesman I work here, I said, I don't really need to see you. I'll know within two months. I said, go make 10 calls a day, right? That's 50 calls a week. You'll sell three deals a week. I said, you make 30 calls a week. You're going to sell nothing. And I said, I know. Yeah. I said, I don't need to see a diary, thanks.

39:23Yeah. I said, I'll give you that. So you've just got to knock doors, and it's hard. It is flipping hard. You're going to get a lot of rejection, right? Oh, a lot of knockback. Knockback. So how do you deal with that? And have you always just been able to brush it off? Or is it just something that you go, no, it's the next, you know. I remember, right, when I was having a bad, sometimes I was having a bad week. I just thought I knew it was the telecoms company in Sydney. And it was a father and son, and they were really successful. They drove Aston Martins, right? and I remember going down and I'd sit outside their offices sometimes on a Friday afternoon and see their cars and I'd think, I can do this.

40:01I know I can. And then that would give me, get, you know, get moving. Because there was no one really to talk to. Yeah. No one wants to listen to your rubbish week anyway today. You know? So I remember and then I outgrew them actually and it was something I thought, why are they doing, why are they doing so much better than me? You know? but they'd been a lot at the business a lot longer and they were successful and I thought that's going to be me nothing else is going to happen so yeah you've just got to keep doing you've just got to keep knocking doors new and the knockbacks you know you're going to get knockbacks you know I'm still going to get knockbacks yeah expect it yeah but just move on brush yourself down you know get a little bit tough I suppose yeah yeah grow that sort of thick skin a crocodile skin yeah otherwise you know if you're going to get hurt at the first hurdle and think, oh, I can't.

40:55Don't do it. Well, some people will make more money working for other people than working for themselves. And being an entrepreneur, being a business owner, isn't for everyone. There's nothing wrong with having a job and being, you know, loving what you do and, you know, literally going for building a professional career in that way or whatever it is. Or, you know, I think if you love what you do, that's the difference. I think you are right. I mean, if you're the CEO of a large organisation, right, you're going to earn far more money being the CEO of that organisation, pointing fingers at everyone and blaming everybody when they all goes wrong than running your own business, didn't you?

41:27So why wouldn't you? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then equally, what comes with that is a whole other kind of set. The growth isn't always great. The investors, yeah. The politics, the shareholders, the bloody governance committee and all of that kind of stuff. So, yeah, I think it's not necessarily better or worse, but I think the difference that I've found, having been on both sides of the table, because most of my career has been in corporate, as you know, But then the last six years has been, you know, with our own businesses. The difference I find is it feels very different when it's your money.

42:00Every pound a prisoner. Every pound a prisoner. It feels very different when it's your money. And also, you know, if things go pop, there's no salary. There's nothing. You can go from, you know, great month to zero. And it's on you then to dig out of it. You're not relying on an organisation where you're going to get your paycheck. It's just different, isn't it? It's a different approach. And Nigel, what would you say, because you still love the business, you've still got the drive for it, even when you were giving us a tour around earlier, you're going, oh, it's a great business idea. So you've still got that passion.

42:35I think so, yeah. Is it the deal? Is it the chase of the deal that you love or the opportunity? What is it that kind of gives you that passion still today to be doing fresh new things? I just enjoy the deal, enjoy the chase. Yeah. Enjoy what you do, you know? and yeah, I still love it. I still enjoy it with a passion what I do. It's not really about the money. No. It's about how do I win this business? Or you go into a place and you instantly know, I'm not going to win this business. So it's finding like-minded people and doing a bit of homework on that. If they're a sports person, right, whatever sport it is, I know I'm going to get on with them because I understand them.

43:14And sports people, you've talked about Jiffy, high performance both people like very easy to get on with but then if you've got somebody that's not quite like that and I can smell it straight away I suppose and I'm just wasting my time here yeah you've got nothing in common yeah you've got to find common ground and then you try to speak to them and there is no common ground and they instantly take a bit of a dislike for you and they think forget it but I'm not going back yeah so that's my price and that's it you know just finding and doing a little bit of homework

43:49about the people that you're going to see. Yeah. If you can. Yes, absolutely. Do your due diligence as much as possible. Prepare, right? You've got to prepare for these, you know, important meetings or even just a chance opportunity. I always say to people that I work with, you know, and sometimes people cringe with the word networking and I know it can feel a little bit like, you know, forced and a little bit strange, but actually all you're doing is building really good solid relationships with interesting people. Not necessarily what you can get out of it, but just how that might flourish into something.

44:18But I also say, put the time and effort in. You know, you can't just expect this to flourish. You need to take the time to understand someone, meet them where they are, you know, see if you've got common ground and really invest and nurture those relationships. But be quite intentional and quite conscious about it as well. I agree. You know, and I think that's something that's certainly, you know, stood me in good stead. And I just, I mean, there's people that I do business with today or have just become friends that I've known for 30 odd years, you know, and that's a joy, isn't it? It is. And it's not always easy.

44:54We are members of the B &I. I know people go to B &I. Yes, yeah, yeah, of course. And I've been a member there for 25 years, right? And there was a couple of people there. There's Peter Lynn, there's one. Peter and I started a business at the same time. He had one office. He's now got nine offices around Wales. We look after all Pete's stuff. Yeah. He's a great cricketer, great golfer, great fan. So, yeah, there's one of the, you know, you don't want to sell to everybody in that room. No. But you are, you pick the people that you want to sell to. You know you can sell to. That's the low-hanging fruit, I think.

45:27Get the low-hanging fruit and the rest may come, it may not. Yeah. And I think that's a great networking organisation. You know, it's disciplined. You've got to be there seven o 'clock every whatever day it is, the Wednesday. date and yeah and I've made a lot of friends out of that yeah absolutely and where you are today because obviously you've still got a great portfolio you enjoy life as well you enjoy the business but you enjoy life and you're in a position now where you've you've set the businesses not just one business the businesses up so that they almost run without you in it I mean you play a role clearly still and you're passionate about it but I think often what you find is a business owner will become the blocker.

46:06You know, they don't let go and they struggle to sort of elevate themselves a little bit above the day-to-day of the minutiae of a business. So how have you managed to sort of get the right combination where you're almost working on the business, not necessarily in the business? You've got to let go of them. You've got to trust them. You've just employed somebody, right, at a salary. You've got to trust them to do the job. And you know, within a couple of months, whether they're good at it, whether they're bad at it, whether they're going to be late. you'll see the traits very quickly, won't you?

46:36Yeah. I mean, we're not a massive business, right? I couldn't do the job those people are doing, and that's what I pay them, and they understand that, but they can't do what I do either. No. I know my strengths, but I also know my weaknesses. And I'll say, right, we need to go out and sell more systems. I'll go and do that. I mean, I'd ring probably you, or people say, listen, guys, I need to sell some systems. I want to speak to these people. Yeah, no problem. Yeah. That's easy, right? So I find the seller, but they couldn't do that. so we need each other don't we we've got to feed off each other yeah no one person is more important than anyone else i don't think no i agree we need to feed off each other they i need to be the best they need to be the best and as long as we get the best out of each other then that's fine it's not always going to be like that is it no but you do your best to make it like that and give them a great work in the environment as well i think that's important yeah yeah and what's been the what's been the toughest time for you do you think in business because you've been you've been in business a long time what's been the toughest time for you the toughest time is when the company went bankrupt of me and i thought my god this is going to be really tough cash flow yeah non-existent couldn't pay myself couldn't yeah so that was really tough i think you've got to with the telecoms it industry you've got to run with it i mean you've got to be on top of it at all times um new technologies new ideas not missing them you know like i told you earlier i was offered a Vodafone concession and I said no these are never going to catch on so you're not going to make the right decision all the time but I always say try and make 8 out of 10 right and you've got a fighting chance so yeah that was a tough time other than that yeah in all honesty I've enjoyed it but I've still enjoyed it and I've been talking to you about not about the achievements about the journey really of having a good time making money yeah and you've got to laugh haven't you I think you've got to have fun you've got to have fun in business as well you've got to make it enjoyable because you spend a lot of time then, if you're not enjoying what you're doing then what's it for?

48:37Life is short right? Absolutely and that's why I think I socialise with a lot of people I do business with so they become friends and equally they say I'm not happy about this or I'm not happy about that that's fine, we work it out so yeah I think socialising with like minded people is really important it's not a chore then going to work you've got to come to work and the stuff you may not want to do but yeah well i think if you can move what did they say if you can merge your passion with your profession then that's the sweet spot right um which is kind of what you've just described there and you know you'll have had you've given loads of great advice in this conversation by the way so thank you yeah you loads thank you for that because anyone listening will be going oh god yeah i recognize that or i need to be doing that so loads loads of great advice but if you look back at the advice that you might have received over the years is Was there a standout piece of advice for you that you can think, oh, actually, yeah, that really helped me at a certain time or it stayed with you for many years?

49:33I think talking to a very successful businessman, I said, Nig, only employ people better than yourself. That was the big one. That was a standout for me. You're thinking, yeah, actually, you want to be the boss, don't you? But that resonated with me. And I thought after that, because that's what he'd done. Yeah. And he was very, very successful, right? And I used to take a lot of advice from him. that was the one thing that's always stuck out just employ people better than yourselves and I stuck with that yeah that hasn't been difficult but yeah but it's but it's but it's been a game changer for you and how you've built the team and yes it's a good team and it's been it's not just been in one business it's been like multiple times you've applied that so it's not just been a at a time when you needed it right then you've kind of continued with that piece of advice which is really important and it's interesting you were saying you know he was successful because I think there's a saying, you know, success leaves clues.

50:27You know, so actually, you know, someone listening to this will be taking loads of clues from what you've been sharing around what's worked for you and also the failures and how you bounce back. And I think that is so true that when we surround ourselves with the right people, we can learn so much from each other. Absolutely. And for the saying, God give you two years and one month for a reason. I tell my daughters that. They never take any notice in their minds. I struggle with that as well. I'm sorry, got to admit. And this year, right, you have talked about still the passion, the energy, all that's coming, you know, loads of really cool things happening.

51:01If you could describe this year in one word, Nigel, what would it be and why? Exciting. I think we've got a product coming online that's going to be second to the end in the UK. So it's a very exciting time. It's not just me that's excited. They're all excited in there. You know, you've been in a talk, they're very excited about their future because the more successful we are as a business, the more successful they are, the more money they're going to earn. So, yeah, they're excited and they're developing it. It's their baby. Yeah. It's what they have done, isn't it? Yeah. So, yeah, I think it's a very exciting, one of the most exciting years we've had to date.

51:36Get this bit over the line and then get up and sell it and it's going to be superb. Yeah, that's a big claim given, you know, the history, the journey you've had. That's a big claim today. It's not great. You know what? We have got a product now that is second and we'll be cost effective. The product is superb and the price is going to be right. And we can go in and say, can I talk to you? And it's easy, isn't it? Can I come and talk to you about telecoms, please? Can I come and show you our new product? You can see it online. Let me explain to you what we do. Yeah. I'm bought. I'm already. I mean, look, it's a church.

52:10Where do I sign? Where do I sign? But no, that's great. And we're delighted. and breaking news you know you heard it here for people so yeah it's going to be great to see how that plays out for you thank you now Nigel we have we love music you love sport we also love music right I think music brings an energy to everything that we do as well so we ask all our wonderful guests for a song and who the song is by so we can add it to our Brave Bold Brilliant Spotify playlist so what are we going to add from you I think my favourite song one of my favourite songs of all time is Rod Stewart and it'll be Maggie May oh what a classic and we've not had that i love a bit of rod as well that's great amazing i won't get you to sing it though nigel glad i tried to make me sing it in the past and i've been very sorry well maybe that's that's another that's for another another show and and you know the the podcast which is very much aligned with the way i try to carry myself in business and in life you know brave bold brilliant and you've clearly demonstrated lots of times when you've had to bring that into your journey when you hear that brave bold brilliant what does it mean to you nigel i love i love i love it brave bold brilliant right and i think you've got to be brave in business you have to be very brave um make the right decisions bold if you're not bold you've added me for brave and bold are great and then that will make you brilliant yeah at the end of it so brave yeah you've got to be brave you've got to get out there and be bold, don't you?

53:36You've got to own the room. It's got to be your room. So be bold. Get out there. No one's going to beat me. I am the best. So that's the bold bit, I think. And the last bit there, the brilliant bit, will make you brilliant. Oh, amazing. Thank you, Nigel. It's a wrap. What a wonderful conversation. Thank you. I really hope you've enjoyed this episode of Brave Bold Brilliant. Remember, check out our new website, www.brave-bold-brilliant.com. You're going to find loads of resources on there that's going to help you with your leadership journey and with the businesses that you're trying to scale up and grow.

54:11So take care everyone and remember there are no limits to your growth but it is by being brave and bold that you're going to unlock your brilliance.