How James Martin Built a £30M Business Empire After Leaving School at 14 | Entrepreneur Success Secrets

10:34David Horne:and they particularly wanted my company because we had some contracts that they wanted and we had a stand in the Chelsea Flower Show there's a bit of a back story that the guy wanted to be an American in the Chelsea Flower Show. And that got, we got bought out then. And I said to you earlier, my biggest fear was that I'd sold too cheap, too early. And it wasn't a great big company then. It was about 70 employees and it was doing its thing. But what happened, they crashed it. They weren't any good at relationships and I bought it back. And then I built it back up. So I bought it back off the receiver, two bits and nothing.

11:10David Horne:Built it up and then did a management buyout the second time. and we probably we probably still got up to about 80 90 employees returning over sort of six or seven million quid at the time but it was still a good business it had very good profit margins we were in sort of top 30s on our on our on our on our retention uh you know it was a lot of labor but you know there wasn't much product in there and we had very good contracts mod local authority you know big estates and then we had all our harold and hilda work was domestic work that gave us a very secure turnover as well from money you know we were quite cash rich

11:49Kathy Horne:yeah yeah but it's interesting isn't it how often happens and I've done a fair bit of M &A work over the years as well very often you know someone will buy a business and then they absolutely ruin it and then actually there is an opportunity to go back in like you did and buy it back and then of course you have another go at it how did it feel when you when you got back under the bonnet did you think oh my god how have they made such a mess of this or did you just go no it's all opportunity I know exactly what I need to do I mean I knew exactly what I

12:15David Horne:need I'd had my ear to the ground and my customers were talking to me like what is going on you know and they were big customers and they knew me intimately and the the purchase was a crap purchase they they locked me out of the industry but you know they hadn't secured that those relationships would be going in they should have made me bleed out and not not not just walk out on day one and that was that was their their hurry up mistake that they had made but really i just went in apologized profusely to all my long-standing customers got them all back and you know we worked for virgin we worked for andrew lloyd weber's estate we had loads of real big hitters and i just was able to go in there put my my status to one side and literally go visit them visit their estate managers and apologize and go in and say look we're going to do the first couple of months here for absolute free and they just went no we don't need to do it free we just want you to come back and do it and then we built it all back up again um and it was an opportunity what i had learned Jeanette is that i'd been away from it and i'd start buying property and buying land and some commercial property and i could see that there was some big windfalls in what i was learning there i was in bed with another partner there being being educated by him and i like that the responsibility of all the people again was a lot of responsibility for me and really i thought i'd let down the management team and i wasn't going to do that the second time so then i went towards a management buyout the second time and we completely sat around the table and said in three years time you guys are going to own this let's build it to be to look like that so we built a completely different model to for me to walk away and then obviously funding came quite easy from the banks to fund me to get out of it.

13:59David Horne:And I was bled out over a period of time. I think three years they bled me out with the payments to me.

14:08Kathy Horne:So before we continue, I want to speak directly to those of you who are listening and thinking, I know I'm capable of more, but I need structure. I need some help. Because here's what I've actually learned after, gosh, more than three decades in business. You know, ambition without clarity creates frustration. And motivation without structure, it really does fade very, very fast. So that's exactly why we created Rise Academy. You know, and Rise Academy, it's not theory. It isn't fluffy motivation, although you will be motivated. And it certainly isn't another online course that you never finish.

14:52Kathy Horne:It's actually a fully structured growth environment for ambitious entrepreneurs, leaders and founders who absolutely are ready to do all of these things, sharpen their strategy, elevate their leadership, increase revenue with intention and build businesses that actually support the life that they want. And inside Rise Academy, we focus on the foundations most people skip. Leading yourself, leading your teams and leading the business. It's about clarity, standards, decision making, commercial intelligence and execution. Because scaling, it really isn't about doing more. It's actually about doing the right things and doing the things right consistently.

15:39Kathy Horne:So if you're serious about stepping up into your next level of your leadership, your business life, you know, and not just consuming content, but actually implementing it, then Rise Academy was absolutely built for you. So you can find all the details on our website, go to www.brave-bold-brilliant.com. And now, let's get back to the show.

16:06Kathy Horne:There's so much in this as you're talking. So, you know, one, reputation, to actually being humble enough to say, hey, listen, I hold my hands up. We didn't get it right. I'm sorry. Just being straight and honest because I think very often sometimes people struggle, don't they? They try and make excuses or cover things up. Well, that's not your style. And then the third one is, as you said, the management buyout formula was the way to go. But you knew that roadmap, that was where you were in and you kind of worked backwards from that on the second time round, presumably.

16:35David Horne:But the only reason I knew that roadmap, and this is where the gratification comes in, because I was smart enough to ask questions of people that had sold businesses before. Because when I sold it, I was in a room of different lawyers, and the lawyer for the other side, I then went and used him to help me. So I literally went back to him. I thought he was really smart. I really enjoyed him, even if he was working for the other side. And I just went into him and said, look, I want to do this. how would I exit again? And it's him that really came up with the management buyout, the formula, how cost effective it was on tax, how it would work.

17:11David Horne:And he just stewarded me. And if that cost, I don't know, I'd have had four sessions with him, 10 grand, I think I paid him to help me with that. And then come the day, I actually employed him to see that process through. I was educating myself at high speed. You know, you talk about having a degree. I was having a degree inside four sessions with him. and I was good at asking questions. I was good at retention of information because I couldn't write it down to reread it. So I would retain it very quick. My brain was quick on that. And, you know, I could feel, physically feel me growing with those events that happened to me.

17:47Kathy Horne:Yeah, yeah. And you said it when you were with the dyslexia that you were quite open about your dyslexia when you were sort of saying, hey, listen, we're building a team and I want you to focus on this and that. So you were quite transparent with that, were you, at the time?

18:01James Martin:Yeah, do you know what? I was so weary of it. I'd failed every day as a school, at school in generally.

18:14David Horne:Do you know what? I didn't really care. All I cared about was getting the information and the people to do what I wanted quicker. It was all about, I felt this race of, I don't know why, but I needed to prove it to myself. I probably need to prove it to my mum and anybody else that was watching that I wasn't the dunce. Go and stand in the corner of the room. I remember, Jeanette, going and standing in the corner of the room. You will not become anything. You are an idiot. And that was the best words ever said to me and the worst words ever said to me all in the same sentence. Because guess what?

18:46David Horne:And you alluded to it earlier. No one can work harder than me. I just needed to learn how to work smart and hard. And I kept working too hard and I needed to learn how to work smart and hard. And smart and hard looked like delegation.

19:00Kathy Horne:Yeah. So today we're going to talk about the businesses that you've got today because you've got a huge portfolio. But you said you started buying property.

19:08David Horne:Yeah.

19:09Kathy Horne:So quite, and presumably you're still quite young at this point when you started buying properties. Yeah, we were just about 30. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, multiple streams of income, diversifying, de-risking, all of that kind of good stuff. and that does take a different approach doesn't it if you're in a business 100 % and you're focused on on that business actually you know to be able to switch your mind you know one minute you're on

19:33David Horne:property one minute you're on you know you're on the arboriculture trees we just say trees

19:42Kathy Horne:when you're in the tree business and then you know you're in property actually you learn that that sort of the benefit of multiple streams of income quite young and what would you advise people that are working in their business they love their business they're passionate about it they can see a real growth plan and they feel that's the horse they should back because that's the big thing for them what would you say to someone that's in that scenario that in the cold context of well actually is that right is that enough should you be doing other things or are the other things a distraction?

20:18James Martin:I think the one lane thing has a lot of merits. You know, it keeps you focused. You get a specialist in your subject or whatever you do. You know, it might be a passion.

20:28David Horne:You know, I don't believe passion is enough just to run a business because you're passionate about cooking. You open up a restaurant. It's a crap model. Do not open up a restaurant. Please do not open up a restaurant. Anybody watching?

20:39James Martin:So that is, you know, there's passion to drive it.

20:45David Horne:what you should be doing with where you're going with your time and effort is looking at when you're asleep is there other things that are paying you money so I've always used the analogy Jeanette that your main core business of what you're into is your fast pounds your day to day you're growing that business you're rolling money back into it but I think you should also be taking some of that profits and putting it into other things that are one side of that that don't use up so much of your time, like commercial property, domestic houses, if you like. They were very good and then they were very bad because of the taxation on stocks and shares.

21:24David Horne:There's something else that's bringing you in a lifestyle different to what you're doing day to day. And what you're in day to day, be careful. What does that model look like in this moving target of AI and the world that we are in? You know, because if you're in finance or you're in insurance, beware, because your job is going to be taken away from you. You know, be careful what that model looks like. I work with a lot of founders at the moment, and we're looking at their models of how fit for the future are they in their current format. Introduce, you know, AIs to help and agents and stuff in your business, but always looking at what the model was.

22:05David Horne:And I thought the service industry is never going out of fashion. We still run a tree company today. That tree company is called Trees Plus. Men go out every day doing what we've done for the last 45 years. And we still bloody do it. Because we know it backwards and we've got some great customers that have stayed with us.

22:22Kathy Horne:Yeah, and AI isn't going to go and cut your tree.

22:24David Horne:Ever, no. Or our other business here that is a big luxury wedding venue.

22:28James Martin:That isn't. It's just going to be enhanced by it. It's going to allow us to have more time to interface with our customers.

22:33Kathy Horne:Yeah, let's talk about hospitality. because you have got this fabulous estate here as I said it's an estate and it is like impressive when you walk in in particular the sheep at the entrance and meet and greet sheep I called them when I parked up I thought are they actually real are they real oh yes they're moving because we do

22:50James Martin:have some fake ones at the back there's a fake ones as well I said oh no they're definitely

22:56Kathy Horne:alive they're real sheep but no that whole entrance and hospitality is a people game right It's a relationship and with a wedding especially, you know, it's that couple's special day. There's a lot of pressure on the delivery. But it's a tough industry as well, right? Hospitality. Very much so. It's a very tough industry. And as I say, my background is in the travel industry, you know, and during COVID and lockdown, hospitality, travel, leisure, retail, you know, we really suffered. Really suffered. But hospitality, why hospitality for you then?

23:29James Martin:no no no interest in it whatsoever i think it's a dangerous game to be in i was buying the whole

23:34David Horne:estate and that was the farm all the houses everything the the um the executives wouldn't split it all up it had to go as one bundle but what i was trying to get hold of was the big commercial side of the estate where all the commercial buildings are and the story is that i'd pre-sold the old pile of bricks that is the manor house off and that was happening and two weeks before the exchange and completion the guy dropped out and he left me holding the baby and he also left a bundle of papers that had his business plan in it my pa looked at them she came back the next day she said have you seen this because this this third year this rocks you know these numbers are good so we brought a consultant in like i would because i know nothing and i could both profess to that and that's my if i take that as my first place that i know nothing she came in she confirmed the numbers we used her consultancy we had no choice we had to carry on but i had to plug up a couple of million quid so the bank said well okay well we'll roll with you and they were united trust bank they were a great bank i'd worked with them a lot and they said but we need your business plan so we got her back in she created business plan she was a steward so she could see the bank could see that we were in good hands because we'd never done anything and we we put that forward and i think i put that forward really just to achieve the sale just to get over this two million pound gap that they need to see that there was a plan for it and they were very they're very good the bank they moved very quickly for us and they did it and then when we got to it we went crikey big old pile of bricks and i'd just done my own house up there was a big old manor house i just thought it cost fortunes you enlisted building and stuff like that it was a pain in the and we went for it i went and headhunted some some very good professionals to run it for me and with me um kelly sinnott that is is our managing director is still with me today and you know hard hats boots and concrete we sold weddings we sold weddings before the wedding venue was ever ready because it's usually a year to 18 months lead time we had hard hats for everybody coming to do a visit and they could all put them on and it was goofy and geeky but it worked and we started getting a customer flow I always talk about funnels creating funnels of customers and putting money into that and and we backed it with finance that I'd had some windfalls elsewhere so I used my own money to put in as director's loans and it's a great business it's definitely not a restaurant it is a model that is pre-paid in advance you have a diary that looks in front of you to up to sort of three years in advance you can see what your task is ahead of you you've got get your price point right you're going into contract with people it's very different it's a very predictable model but it probably takes we thought it was three years with covid it took five years to cruise and now it cruises and it does very well and and it has a great community of staff in it as well we i absolutely love it it's a very smiley business yeah yeah yeah what's interesting you ended up it wasn't the plan no it wasn't the plan at all and and you know i love a

26:39Kathy Horne:plan i love a spreadsheet i love i love a vision you know all of this good stuff that we that we talk about and we help our clients with you know we're in a similar similar but different space as as we know um but actually sometimes it's it's the stuff that isn't planned that can work out to be the best opportunities in the long run because you would never have gone into hospitality consciously would you no you were forced to really yeah and then you were forced to stick with it even when you you know during lockdown and everything it was a disaster you know ideally you'd have you probably exited sooner but you stayed in it you've stayed in it because i think

27:14James Martin:i think that that that's what i through my masterminds and what i teach and when i do

27:18David Horne:mentorship even do one-to-ones i absolutely say to people you can't just throw things and discard them away if you're committed you're committed finish the bloody job and that might mean that you've got to have a bit of a learning curve on a hockey stick but finish the job and i knew there There was a model in there and we had to work out what that was. And I said to you off air earlier, I think business is the same in a lot of sectors. It relates to people, it relates to customers and funnels for customers and delivery. And if they're your pillars, what it looks like, you can just apply that to anywhere you want to walk around.

27:53David Horne:But we were quite committed that that pile of bricks was going to stand there and either do nothing or be a be a burden to us all we needed to create it into a model that was fit for purpose and fit to have a long time it it needed to be future proof and that's what we were really working hard about and if the investment had to be now i think we've probably piled about six million quid into it over the time it took money to build it up yeah but now it's an earning and churning machine it has credibility and it has sustainability that's what i like about that model people are not going to stop getting married Essex is one of the the most signed off marriage certificates in the whole country we went up a market the upper market secured when the economy got hurt you didn't have drop off of customers they still stayed with us they're getting married anyway they're at a price point that they weren't being affected by the by a price a interest

28:53Kathy Horne:rate change or something yeah so it's so you know you've got this very entrepreneurial journey you you've had to duck dive go sideways go up sometimes get get um have exits and you talked earlier around being in partnership with someone you know in business having a having a partner in business um what do you think is the best approach to when you're going into business with somebody else versus actually rowing your own boat um because it isn't always easy yeah um what what's what do you look for in a business partner that's different to when you're just going into a business where you're you know you're in control and you own 100

29:32David Horne:percent of it yeah i the partnership that i had with with with the large property company fell to pieces and i was naive and not and not um i just wasn't smart enough back in the day um and the guy was a bit of a narcissist and he kind of took over what was going on there but there were some big wins in it and while we were at our early stages and these millions were coming in I sort of went with the flow and I didn't bang my foot hard enough in the boardroom over it and I ended up getting ripped off and there weren't memorandums and articles in place and it was it was it was a big rip scar and you know I talk about it openly I think I'm five million pound adrift from that partnership and it still hasn't been sorted out but I've had to park it to one side because of how much energy i was burning up being angry about what i'd done and how stupid i'd been so now i don't really it will be resolved probably when he's dead and his sons come to me and they need me to sign stuff off because it's a 50 50 deal and it's just got stalemated so my my thing would be i don't want partners but if i am there's memorandums and articles and dissolvement clauses and everything put in there and if i'm going into business with somebody i'm going there where I can add value and the person that I'm in business with is running the business it's not me running the business they will have to be the person that is actually going to day to day turn up and make sure all the cogs go around in a circle so I'm doing a little bit of that now not much but we are doing one project at the moment it's in its early stages but yeah I mean I want to be in control I want to have my board membership that I can actually make a decision on behalf of the company and I'm not going to be outvoted by anybody I want to make those right or wrong decisions and that responsibility is mine yeah well and when you've had your fingers

31:18Kathy Horne:burnt like that you know of course it's going to make you like go right okay you know never again kind of feeling but I guess what you know a hard lesson and an expensive lesson but to be able to just kind of let it go it does take that I don't know I suppose deep inner work I think as well to move forward from those situations when someone's hurt you, harmed you, done something like that.

31:40David Horne:Jeanette, I don't want those things to define me. No. And if I let them creep up and grab me, then that's who I am. That's my poor me, poor me story. And I don't want that. My story wants to be about ambition, progress, growth, new learnings, new teams, new acquisitions.

31:56James Martin:That's my story. You know, okay, there's some rip scars. Just take them as lessons. I think, you know, we spoke earlier.

32:04David Horne:how you re sorry start again how you frame your stuff is going to get you everywhere if you're framing it as poor me it will be poor me if you're having a shit day you're going to get one you know if you're going to be this is going to be a bit awkward but i think we can do it then you'll do it you know that's how you do it and i learned very quickly from you know in my late 20s framing the situation is defining how you're going to cope with it that's such good advice for anyone that's

32:33Kathy Horne:listening actually because you're right there's always two sides of any coin isn't it's easy to see the shit in a situation we can all do that but i think there's a great quote from confucius that i really like and it's and it's i think it was also repeated by henry ford but it's those who think they can and those who think they can't are both usually right yeah spot on yes it is spot on yeah absolutely spot on and i'm a big believer in that because like you say and it's also about if you're the victim you're giving the power to other people absolutely right whereas if you go no i'm in control of my own destiny i own my cock-ups i own my mistakes i own all of that the power's back with you isn't it the power's back and i think what you said that the visual

33:13David Horne:thing is you know i visually close my eyes and i visually see myself solving the problem or owning the property or creating another wealth stream somewhere else and I literally go there who I'm with what I'm wearing what it looks like what my control is and I literally go there take some photographs and video then come back and go okay I now know what I'm doing and then I work backwards to get to that point and and whether you call it you know the secret visualization whatever you call it I don't really care I know it works and I know it I've used it multiple multiple multiple multiple times if i'm trying to find a parking space i'll see myself parking near the store i want to go to and someone moves out my way and i drive in and i you know voodoo what is he talking about i don't care i know it works and i believe here and i think that that's all that matters for me whether it's a placebo or not or whatever it is i don't care yeah i'm 100 with you i'm exactly

34:10Kathy Horne:the same i do all the visual visualization i do my incantations you know all of that kind of stuff And like you say, if other people is not their thing, that's okay. You do you. I'll do me. But I agree with you. It is a very powerful, powerful approach to life. And also less stressful.

34:27James Martin:Yes, less stressful. Gee whiz.

34:29Kathy Horne:You know, I mean, because let's be honest. Business isn't easy. You know, we do have tough times and it can get very heavy sometimes. Life can get quite heavy, can't it? And I think to find that quiet space for yourself, you know, for you, it's in the morning. I'm in the morning. Other people, it might be in the evening. you know whatever your your kind of energy level is is at the best time of day give yourself space because I think often we kid ourselves and I've been guilty of this in the past as well around just being a busy fool you know I'm doing I'm doing I'm doing I'm doing I've got packs of gender actually less is more yeah sometimes how do you manage that because I know you've got a pack

35:05James Martin:schedule I think the schedule can feel can feel you know crushing sometimes when you you map out

35:11David Horne:and I look at Christmas and my whole of Christmas is just completely mapped out. There isn't one day where I think, well, I'll just do nothing that day.

35:20James Martin:There's stuff going on. And I look at that diary and that does feel slightly weighty. I think that I do, I talked about my mornings more of a puttering.

35:31David Horne:I putter around in the mornings. I send people messages. I do my exercise. I do my outdoor swimming, whatever I'm set up to do. harder when I'm traveling and that that becomes you know I get guilty when I'm traveling that I haven't done what I usually is in my routine I like my routine but I think that you know because we've we've been very good at doing delegation and having people in responsible places that you've created that responsibility that I could be wearing it and I've delegated it then that allows me to have more time to be able to be more creative or you know more contemplational about where I'm going with the business and what the future is going to look like

36:15Kathy Horne:and I always think as well I don't know if you find this James that you've got to match your energy with the right doing the right things when your energy is at the right time yeah you know and um and sometimes certainly in the corporate world you know you can't always control that unfortunately you know because it might be board meetings or certain things that are happening out of your control so it's not always perfect but you know I often when I work with people I often say well if you're struggling you're not really getting done what you want to get done some blockers just keep a log for 28 days just literally just super simple just write down what you're doing throughout the day and what kind of work was it you know is it was strategic were you was it was it income generating you know was it actually a maybe a key life area and how was your energy at the time were you kind of steady were you react you know some days you're on fire aren't you i can't achieve anything or energize and take a look at it because if you do that for a month and then you just reflect on it the patterns come you see you might have been tash jumping or you're trying to like you write your business plan at the end of the day when you're knackered or in the afternoon when you have a natural lull and it really allows you i think to to be super focused at the right time of day and then know yourself when actually you do want to potter around because actually that's the thing that's right for you at that time do you see that with the people you work with that they're almost trying to force force themselves into a pattern or routine actually they're going against their natural kind of rhythm i think i think that the

37:47James Martin:what happens with management here on the estate because all of the all of the managing directors and stuff all operate out of our headquarters office here and there's times of the month where everybody's together i think i've learned very very very quickly to give them all the tools they

38:03David Horne:need to do the job whatever that might be from claw to computers to other members of staff number twos PAs whatever they might need and make sure they've got that but I never want to stand behind anybody with a stick no you know you've got a job and it's in your job description that you've signed your contract to come and work for us and commonly it gives you a good place to point back to with a member of staff we go but let's look at what you signed up to do because I think you're fine that is your job and I don't want to take over people's problems I want them to problem solve. I think problem solving is the one thing that I got really, really good at.

38:43David Horne:I got calmer. As the shit hit the fan, I got calmer. And I don't know where that comes from, but I got really good at saying, yeah, okay, well, why don't we not write an email? Why don't we not? Actually, why don't we write an email and not send it? And it was all little tricks and flicks like that, that, you know, when problems were doing that money was late coming in, a customer wasn't behaving themselves, or whatever it was, I got very good at getting super... I'd sit on the problem and not react to the problem. And I think that was a skill that just came over time.

39:21James Martin:But back to the staff, yeah, I think they need to be reactive of what they do. They need to be conscientious. I love teams.

39:29David Horne:I love building teams, and you do as well. That's one thing we talked off air. But I really get off on it. I think it's great. I want to see people grow. It really gets me going.

39:37Kathy Horne:Yeah, and that actually leans into, you know, obviously you've got the hospitality business, you've got the wedding business here, you've got all the commercial stuff that you do, the property, et cetera. But you've also got a great business where you help other business owners scale up, don't you? Talk us a little bit about that, who that's really for, and then I'm interested in almost the methodology, the approach that you take to help those businesses go from, you know, I don't know, 100 ,000 to a couple of million to 5 million, et cetera. So, yeah, talk us about that because some people might be wanting to engage with you on that.

40:11James Martin:That really happened. I was asked many years ago to start doing a bit of mentorship and stuff, and I started doing that. We had the Prince's Trust asked me to do something with some young entrepreneurs. I did a little bit of that.

40:27David Horne:It was quite time consuming, so I had to back out of that. and in the end I was doing probably eight one-to-ones in a month and it was just eating my time and it was such a responsibility to just do these individual people I just you know it just wasn't working with the time schedules that I had so some very good friends of mine were helping me and they said look just just create you and I was being asked to talk at masterminds I was involved in a mastermind back in the day and they said why don't you just set your own mastermind up you can diarize it through the year do it as a quarterly event and then do it as a quarterly zoom and the rest of the time they can find you on on email or on whatsapp for what they might need doing it so i went into the areas that i know the service industry i know it backwards you know it's a big industry that i know commercial property buying and selling companies i've been around it i understand it i can add value to it so i just stayed in that lane and what i commonly quickly realized that for the customer and the client to afford me, they needed to be a couple of million pound plus.

41:31David Horne:It needed to be a company expense and not a personal expense. So a couple of million pound turnover. And my gig was to make a mastermind of like-minded, similar skilled people to come in and add value to one another, but then to move them to sort of four to six to 10 to 20 million and that's what the scale and that was going to be my responsibility to do that for them and I took it very seriously I take it very seriously now we are helping people to buy warehouses to buy up companies to scale by acquisition it's you know people want to scale internally it's so slow work it's so hard to finance it's so difficult but you can go and buy

42:10James Martin:a company and end up with a commercial property all in the same deal you know and you can do it very little money down you know so there was there was that and that that mastermind we created a

42:21David Horne:completely different i didn't want a classroom so if you come to mastermind you have a chair it's like dragon's den you have a chair with your side table and your your your your drinks and stuff on the side and we just have a chat we just talk about everybody's business and we hatch it all out and we go through we hold you accountable you talk about what you're going to do we say that

42:40James Martin:don't forget what you said you were going to do and we literally just go through it with them

42:43David Horne:and we open their mind up so they can get out of their way and they can progress and they can find a blue ocean of opportunity in something that they've built that they're very smug and say successful doing well guess what now there's the new chapter and you have to be a completely different person to go to the next level and and my job is to steward you through that and open your horizon brain up to be able to think bigger and be possible yeah and actually make a very very

43:11Kathy Horne:valued point because what's got you here isn't necessarily going to get you to the next level.

43:15David Horne:But it just isn't is it? Because you've got there with all the skills and the bumps and trumps you've done and all these little tricks and flicks that you've learned but to go into giving the responsibility to managing directors, stepping out of the company, trying to work not any on the company, well that is not it that that's a that's a little bit prickly for some people. I found it easy to do but for others to let go to not go in and meddle and fiddle they can't leave it alone and the production of that come of that that company or person might go down but don't worry

43:49James Martin:too much because it will go down and then come back up again or it will go down and you'll change that person but you've got to go through that transition stage and that means that you're not

43:58David Horne:the rainmaker you're not going to be doing it and fiddling with it because if you want to build that company of scale and fit for sale then you have to have management in place and you're not in the

44:08Kathy Horne:business and what do you think in your journey because you've had to do this but you adapted very early because you know because of the dyslexia it almost forced you to think differently right whereas whereas other people maybe they've been doing things a certain way for a very long time so it is a big adjustment for them to you know let go to grow or whatever whatever coin of phrase we throw at it but for you what do you think has been the two or three big things that have helped you be successful or so successful with where you are now because I know it's not been easy and people might look at you oh it's all right for James with his fancy ball.

44:39Kathy Horne:No no no

44:39James Martin:we we've had to reverse out of things that we've set up we've dumped money we've lost money on projects we've lost money on investments you know all of it I can point to all of those things

44:48David Horne:I frame it in that that is part of my my university degree of of being a business person that I look at it and I frame it all in a positive way that I take all those those scars and I wear them well and now I teach them back. I mean, that's how I do it. But I think that your attitude to what you can do sometimes needs to be tweaked because you'll be amazed at what you can do in a year to what you might be able to achieve in 10 years. They're very different things, but it's what your attitude is towards what you're going to do and how you're going to do it. And a lot of it is being able to create something that is able to run without you in it.

45:30David Horne:And that should be your goal. It should be that you become the steward of the company and you're the mentor to the company and the visionary. And that's what you should be able to do. I was able to do it early because I didn't have any choice because I couldn't stay in the trenches and work in it because I wasn't actually good enough with my reading and writing to be able to do that. So I needed people to come in and do it for me. And I quickly learned the better use of my time was to be with customers.

45:56Kathy Horne:Yeah, yeah. And on a personal basis, because, you know, I always think life doesn't fit into neat little boxes. I mean, they do say that men's brains are composed of neat little boxes with different topics, but women's brains are like, it's all over the place and connected and what have you. But life isn't straightforward, is it? It's not, you know, business doesn't happen here and then personal life here and relationships here and family here. How have you managed to sort of navigate, you know, being a great dad, you know, being with friends, with family, etc., outside of the work environment?

46:27Kathy Horne:Because I think when people are all in on their business, that stuff can suffer. Right. I mean, I've been in situations myself where I've like really neglected my relationship to the point. It's like, oh, my God. Right. OK. Hang on a minute. I need to do something here. and I have struggled with that whole balance and whether it really exists or doesn't exist. So for you, how do you manage to kind of still be James, you know, the businessman, the portfolio, business owner, the investor, the mentor, the coach and all that, as well as being James outside of the business and, you know.

47:02James Martin:It's a hard question because I've been shit at it.

47:05Kathy Horne:Right, okay.

47:06James Martin:And I've not been good at it at all. I mean, you asked me the bloody question. I mean, I'm two marriages in. I've never seen my children as much as I should ever have seen them and I'm pretty crap at it I'm either selfish or stupid or I've got a drug addiction to business that I see myself doing that's what I want to do so I do what I want to do and what I want to do is do what I do at work and I've not been good at it at all I don't see a home life balance at all

47:37David Horne:and that's the truth you want the answer, that's the truth but I am who I am and that's what's defined me of what I do. I see more pleasure in what I do at work than perhaps I have done sometimes in my home life and I've spoke intimately about this to my children and to both my ex-wives

47:53James Martin:that I still look after and care about but they didn't want to come along for that ride and I wasn't there so much so that's the truthful answer. There you go.

48:02Kathy Horne:Yeah, it is tough. It's really tough isn't it for a lot of people actually and would you do anything differently with hindsight because hindsight's a great thing isn't it?

48:10James Martin:I would love to have made more time for the kids and stuff like that. You know, I would turn up at the bloody sports day just as if packing up because I got the timing wrong or I didn't read the notes properly.

48:21David Horne:I was in a board meeting that I couldn't get out of. You know, all the excuses under the world. But yeah, I would love to change the clock back. But we can't. And I'm very generous to my children and what they do now with my time more so. and stewarding them into their world and their careers and what they're doing. So, yeah, I mean, it is what it is.

48:44James Martin:You ask the question, that's the real answer. I could have come up with a big fluffy answer, but that's the real answer.

48:49Kathy Horne:No, and I appreciate that because this is keeping it real. This is life, this is business, this is what it's all about. And like you say, what you do exceptionally well is that you go, okay, well, I learned the hard way, I learned a lesson there, and now I'm here to help other people so that they hopefully can learn from that. from your experience as well, right? Because, you know, I think it is a challenge and I think it's a particular challenge with entrepreneurs as well. You know, where you're investing, it's your baby, you're growing your business. It's a challenge in the corporate world as well, but there's a bit more structure around it, you know?

49:21Kathy Horne:You've got a bit more resources. It's just a different environment. And I think it is a little bit easier sometimes in corporate to get that sort of balance or it's more accepted to take days off and all the rest of it. Whereas when it's your baby, it's hard it's really difficult isn't it yeah and and I think the other thing is you know who you surround yourself with is really important so who have you had in your life that has really influenced you to help you on your journey because we talked about the early you know the early people in the pub with your mum and dad that were sort of giving you a bit of it they were mentors weren't they at that early stage of being 14.

49:57Kathy Horne:who are the other kind of people or type of people that have

50:00James Martin:helped you on that I used to I used to constantly go and look over the fences other people in my industry and I was I was very good at going and talking to

50:10David Horne:them about merging about what you know are we are we going to be against each other on this big MOD contract or you know why don't you take this one and I'll

50:21James Martin:look at the next one with a bit more favor and we would have these conversations and they some of these companies were a lot bigger than mine and I learnt from them, I was helped from them. They thought it was a bit weird to start with but they softened up to it. We'd meet at conferences and stuff like that. And yeah, I had people that I trusted and were influential to me. I got into some very good solicitors and accountants early

50:46David Horne:that I still work with today and they've grown with me as I've grown, their businesses have grown and they've helped me and they've pulled me up and given me reality checks. my PAs I've had two really good PAs I had Joe to start with and now I've got Christina you know I spend lots of time with them and they will they will no shit Sherlock me or they will look at an idea with me and take some of the shine off of it with a reality check and I think that's really helped me now in the

51:19James Martin:last few years I've got very friendly and he's almost my best buddy now I Everybody refers to him as my boyfriend, and that's James Sinclair, because we spend so much time together.

51:30David Horne:But we will sit there, analyse a business together, something he's buying. I'll go to a meeting with him to purchase something, just as a third observer, and he'll do the same for me. And that's what we love doing. That's what we get off on, and we work it out between the two of us.

51:45James Martin:And I think I do that. I do that with other business people as well, and I'll do the same for them.

51:50David Horne:I think the sense of community, we run a dinner here. Will Polston runs the dinner club here. And that's what we've been going for five years. And it's every month there's a dinner for entrepreneurs. That community, you can lean in with some of those people. I think an entrepreneur slash business person, wherever you want to do, not so much in the corporate. I think at the top of the corporate, I think it must be the same. But it's very lonely. you are making decisions headline decisions for steerage of the company to move in different directions or things to happen or purchasing or whatever it might be that is a very very lonely

52:28James Martin:place to be sometimes and sometimes a phone call can you just look at that what i've just decided to do am i nuts or is that what it is and to get confirmation even if it's to say no i agree with you go for it you know or whatever it might be but i think to be able to have those those phone

52:44David Horne:numbers in your book to be able to lean on is is is the difference between making a great decision

52:50Kathy Horne:and making a poor decision yeah it's so important it really is and and and you're right because it is alone it can be a really lonely place can be a really stressful place you're making lots of sacrifices you've got it can feel heavy heavy heavy and i think you know if you can have people like james sinclair and whoever it might be for anyone that's listening it's so powerful and and And actually not feeling embarrassed to ask. And this is about trust, isn't it? Having people in your camp that actually you can be yourself, you can be open with.

53:18James Martin:And they're not going to blow smoke. No, they'll call out your bullshit as well. They'll call out the bullshit and just say, what, are you dreaming? That's never going to work because it's going to do this or whatever. It's not going to work.

53:28Kathy Horne:Yeah, you don't just want people to say how great you are.

53:30James Martin:Yeah, no, absolutely not. I mean, even in our boardroom, we were talking about different people coming to the boardroom and I was saying, look, I want to put some neuro, this was about 12 years ago, some neurodiverse thinking in our boardroom because we're making decisions here

53:44David Horne:that I want them to be seen from a different attitude and a different vibe or however it would be. And I think that, I want disruptors. I want people to go against the grain to me. I don't want nodding dogs. I want people to say, yeah, it's all right, but it's not great, is it? If you look at it in year four,

54:02James Martin:and we go, hang on, what are we doing in year four? The machinery would have run out by then, so you've got to reinvest another machine so that takes all the profit out again and you're back to you're back to day one again or whatever it might be on the model um but that yeah that is it yeah

54:14Kathy Horne:yeah definitely and i think that's important important skill to have actually the the difference

54:19James Martin:that i have with with meeting you is that you've been in such these massive organizations with all this huge weight of responsibility on it and where where where i am with my entrepreneurial world it's driven by me the responsibilities are mine the the the numbers are less but i think the weight feels the same you know it does feel the same you know you've got this whole thing you know glaring at you from from shareholders to to to the footsie for whatever it might be that you've got to you've got to you know governance and and how you've got to be whiter than white and from my side of it here it's whether it will work whether everybody will get fed whether their mortgages will be paid whether I'm going down the right rabbit hole you know and that feels it feels it feels the same but different you know I think that's what we've learned from meeting each other

55:09Kathy Horne:today I agree I agree wholeheartedly and actually there are things that you know bigger businesses could learn from from you know your world and how to be more innovative and creative and a bit more problem solving and less structured and less you know and actually even there's some things that a bigger business can bring to a smaller business in the right in the right way and I think that's what's really nice about you know me interviewing you for this podcast and you interview me for yours because it's just opening up a different perspective isn't it I think there's I think there's in my world it feels more nimble there's nimble right and when you were talking when you

55:43James Martin:were talking earlier today off air you know it it's like turning a bloody ship around sometimes for you and you've got to get everyone to agree and is there well that that feels slow and clunky where this, you can literally turn on a sixpence and turn something off

55:58David Horne:and just say, no, we're not funding it anymore. And that's the end of that. We were funding the wedding business from one of our other businesses and putting directors' loans across or company into company loans across. And I just drew a line after a particular Christmas, say two years ago, and I just said, right, there is no more money. How does everybody feel about that? And they were, what are we going to do? I said, no, no, no more projects. no more capex we are now you are now standing on your own two feet I thought I would let you know early so good luck next year you know and literally just drop the hand grenade and walk they know what I'm like they know that they can come to me and ask me but it was to set a precedent to say the honeymoon period is bloody well over

56:44Kathy Horne:yes

56:44David Horne:we are commercial guess what this is not a fantasy thing this is about creating a working machine that is that is fit for purpose and it has sustainability and it has crews and it will earn this number yeah and there's the number everybody got the number so now you know what what you need to do to go and get that and i think that you know that approach and that grit and determination from me has come from years of being flappy and not not being um focused and and not actually involving the team to be focused i might have known what that figure looks like in my in my my little notebook but not shared it with the team yeah Quickly, I very learned quickly 20 years ago, tell the team where the numbers are.

57:28David Horne:Get those dashboards out. They need to know what those numbers are weekly, probably daily. We load our zero every day. There's an accountant in there that loads it every single day. You can show me on a heartbeat what my numbers are. And people need to be able to do that.

57:44Kathy Horne:Yeah, and you're right. One, decisive decision making. Two, complete transparency with the team. And you're right. you described it absolutely perfectly that you know being in a big corporate organization it's like it is like to trying to turn a tank i mean that takes a lot of energy and a lot of kind of wasted energy sometimes let me say whereas actually you're a speedboat you know and sometimes a big business wants a speedboat but they've got all this legacy they've got this like you know heavy infrastructure or legacy systems whatever it may be and the the numbers are so big that actually it doesn't take a lot to to get it wrong and then all of a sudden you've gone from profit to negative you know so it's just different but I love that that way of thinking actually and if we could bring more of that into you know a larger organization and as you scale you know you've got the ability to scale a business with a repeatable model with the sales funnel and everything that you teach people but actually still keeping agile and still keeping that decisive approach to

58:37James Martin:to business right which I think is great I think you know in all in all business you know big corporate or not I think they need to have that vision of what it looks like and I think that has to extend beyond six years you know people need to really see what that looks like and that's a quality that you need to learn to have that oh you know we're worried about next year we're worried about next month no no no next month will sort itself out if you work on what the long vision is

59:04David Horne:and I and I you know I really try and push that into people's brains because if they think that far forward they grow to achieve that and that that's crucial it actually it makes it happen you know it become it becomes the uh the seedbed of of them growing is because they've seen a vision

59:25Kathy Horne:that they could they possibly can go and get yeah yeah and it links to your visualization of what you you know how you work anyway isn't it so so i think you're absolutely spot on and and you know you will have had so much advice over the years, James, and you've given loads of amazing advice on this podcast, so I really appreciate that. But can you think of the standout best advice that you've had yourself that's really made a step change for you?

59:50James Martin:I mean, go way back. A guy in the pub, and I've documented this before, he sat me down and he knew I couldn't read and write and stuff and he knew my mum was scared and this is real early days. And the one bit of advice he said to me was, you know, you do know, son. you've got exactly the same brain cells as everybody else we're all born with exactly the

1:00:10David Horne:same brain cells well that kind of was a revelation for me because i thought i absolutely didn't because i couldn't do that thing and i thought well that must be because i haven't got as much gray matter as other people he said that and he said yours are just in rooms that you've not discovered yet and i thought that was just a great way of framing how i now needed to think because now i knew that i had all of that intelligence i just needed to go in and unlock the rooms and find where it all was. Well, that was great. So that was a great bit of advice. And then in my late 20s, as I was selling one of the businesses, a guy

1:00:45James Martin:said to me, you know, he literally laid it on the line and he said, you're so hard working. No one works harder than you. And I said, you're fucking right. Absolutely right. I am the real deal. He said, yeah. He said, so start working smarter. And that was it. and the rest is history because as soon as he as soon as he identified that that's actually where i

1:01:07David Horne:needed to start thinking like then i went towards it with that in my head and it just changed it literally just changed i started thinking about the tasks that i didn't need to do i don't need to do those tasks others need to do it and i started thinking to work smart and not hard

1:01:24Kathy Horne:yeah so two real pivotal moments two very different parts of your life that absolutely

1:01:29David Horne:game-changing yeah and they actually defined my thinking and I think that that's why you need stewardship that's why you need mentorship that's why you need to have people that have been in the trenches to educate you quicker so you don't have all these scars is so you can change your thinking and if you can change your thinking everything is possible it just is it just is yeah and

1:01:56Kathy Horne:power of the what's up here is uh and what's in here as well is really important isn't it and i do think that sometimes sometimes people can see things so much more clearly than you can yourself when you when you're in it right and it's that sort of simplicity those two very simple messages but how powerful yeah totally changes the wood for the trees isn't it with people you're so

1:02:17James Martin:entrenched in it that's why you start needs it that's why the saying is work on your company

1:02:22David Horne:not in it because when you're in it you can't you can't be seen your blinkers are on and you're just you're just putting furrows of work in where you need to be actually looking down your analogy of the helicopter is a great analogy that the helicopter view of what you can see down on

1:02:36Kathy Horne:the company is great yeah yeah absolutely and you know this year like any year james it's going to be and it is already an interesting year and will continue to be so if you could describe this year

1:02:48David Horne:in one word what would it be and why make sure you've got your own microclimate of of of of money going on in your business because you're not going to rely on handouts from the government or things changing quickly. So I think you need to make sure you've got a profitable model in your business because you need an ecosystem that you can survive in with what's going on. We are being, with what I own and the other businesses that we run, this is like the whinging old fart now, but energy costs, taxation on employment, punitive charges, pre-profit it's just ridiculous they've got their head up their ass quite frankly and if you're going to moan about it you're going to be defined by it make sure what business you're in has profits that you can get through it and you've got those little war chests you know my my christina runs it for me we've got money stacked everywhere in case money because we need to be able to make sure that if something hits us there that we can start trimming back or leaning in but we need to have profitable businesses that allow us to do that and to reinvest to put a marketing campaign when the market's going sheer push more into it as opposed

1:04:02Kathy Horne:to retracting you know yeah and you can liquidity yeah liquidity and you can only do that from profits yeah yeah 100 % and if you were thinking about your life your business what are you most proud of would you say in independence

1:04:19James Martin:really. I like to be independent. I like to make my own decisions. I don't want to ask people for anything. I'm bored with that. I did lots of begging, building businesses, begging banks or begging angels to lend me money to create projects or buy property. I like the independence of it. I like to be able to walk around here, you know, and not be a big shiny show-off owner. I just just wander around and I like being here on the estate.

1:04:50David Horne:It's a place to come home to with all my travelling that I do, that I know that I've built a community of people and a headquarters here that is cuddly, it's nice, it's good.

1:05:00Kathy Horne:Yeah, and you should feel really proud of what you've achieved. It's incredible. And music, we love music on Brave Bold Brilliant. What's your song that we're going to add to our Brave Bold Brilliant Spotify playlist?

1:05:11James Martin:See, I should have listened to you when you said this earlier and I'll not be thought about it. What do I really like? I like the police. I used to like the police. That was my sort of era. And Japan were a great group. And who was the other one that I really liked? Was King, Paul King was great. I remember going to Alley Pally with a girlfriend and watching all these groups and stuff. That was my era, a bit of sort of new romantics and stuff like that. But yeah, I listen to a lot of music. I like Elton John. I like all his stuff. He's got some great, great songs, legacy songs that come around and around.

1:05:48James Martin:He's great. I love the story between him and Bernie. So Bernie wrote all the words and then he wrote all the music. It's just so good, isn't it? And Bernie's got to be the best billionaire in the world, hasn't he? Because he just sits quietly somewhere in a ranch, somewhere in America. No one knows what he looks like and he's worth so much more than Elton because he didn't spend any money. Elton just spent it all on clothes and glasses.

1:06:10Kathy Horne:Yeah, yeah. So we're going to pick a song. I'm still going to push you for a song. So pick one of those and choose a song that you like.

1:06:18James Martin:I will then pick Elton John. And it is, oh, what is it called? You have to cut this in because it's called, where's my phone? It's Tiny Dancer.

1:06:32Kathy Horne:Tiny Dancer.

1:06:33James Martin:Tiny Dancer. Tiny Dancer is the answer to that question.

1:06:37Kathy Horne:What a great selection. Tiny Dancer, yeah. I'm just going to cue that a little bit again. Yeah, do that. Okay, let me know. So this is for my James. Fair take now. So we love music, James. We've got a Brave Bold Brilliant Spotify playlist. What song are we going to add to the playlist from you?

1:06:57James Martin:So I paid attention to saying this to me earlier. And yeah, I like Elton John's stuff, his back catalogue and stuff. So yeah, I like Tiny Dancer. It's a great song. It's great video with Tiny Dancer. If you watch the video, his storytelling in that video is just off the clock. And more work I do on social media and stuff and what you're doing as well. And we're telling stories. We're telling stories to customers. And that storytelling on that particular song is great.

1:07:25Kathy Horne:Yeah, real feel good, actually.

1:07:27James Martin:That's right.

1:07:28Kathy Horne:Now, we started the podcast with your gratitude pebble. Yeah. And I have got one question after this question. But I want to just hear from you. What are you grateful for today?

1:07:40James Martin:Today is about being able to have the freedom to make my decisions, to work with people like Olly. I love working with Olly and watching how we're growing our business with James Martin Entrepreneur. I absolutely get a kick out of it and I want to be doing that for many years to come.

1:07:58Kathy Horne:Amazing. Thank you very much. Now, brave, bold, brilliant, James. What does that mean to you?

1:08:05James Martin:yeah brave brave feels like a puffed up chest and going into stuff and what i spoke to you earlier i think bravery is not constant i think bravery is on focused things that happen to you you know

1:08:17David Horne:burning your bridge and signing the contract or you know whatever it might be that but i think there are particular times of bravery that you need to have it almost in your toolbox to bring out your brave pants, put them on and go forward with something.

1:08:31James Martin:Bold, you know, bold is about being out there, being noticed and making things happen, you know, and creating something. What else are you going to do? We're running around this planet, might as well do something great, might you? Do you know what I mean? So that's it. That's really what it all means to me.

1:08:48Kathy Horne:Excellent. Well, listen, it has been absolute joy and what a venue here in your beautiful and beautiful place. So thank you so much. And it's a wrap.

1:08:56James Martin:Thank you.

1:08:57Kathy Horne:I really hope you've enjoyed this episode of Brave Bold Brilliant. Remember, check out our new website, www.brave-bold-brilliant.com. You're going to find loads of resources on there that's going to help you with your leadership journey and with the businesses that you're trying to scale up and grow. So take care, everyone. And remember, there are no limits to your growth, but it is by being brave and bold that you're going to unlock your brilliant.

1:09:27Thank you.