Inside Virgin Atlantic’s Global Expansion Strategy | Juha Järvinen

0:02Don't ever doubt yourself. Actually I was very introverted. I was actually very shy when I was young. I think that goes back to being authentic yourself and don't ever doubt yourself.

0:14So welcome to Brave Bob Brilliant. Juha, nice to see you for the second time on the podcast. Thank you. Great to be back. But you are back in a different capacity because you are now Chief Customer Officer for Virgin Atlantic, whereas before when we spoke four years ago, I think it was, you were Chief Commercial Officer. That's right. So, new role, new decade. Don't remind me. Yes, I'm 50. Let's put it out there. You were 50, but you're never going to catch up with me because I'm 54 this year. We've got the facts out. Exactly. I know we don't look old enough. Yes, that's fine. And so, yeah, so tell us, talk about the new role, how it, you know, the shift, because it's been, what, a couple of months now since you're in?

0:59Yeah, since January. Yeah, great. Yes, so seven years at Virgin Atlantic Chief Commercial Officer. And of course, it was everything from the whole trauma of pandemic into post-pandemic rebuilding. So it was, I would say, quite tough seven years. But I love the challenge, which you already know. So it was amazing seven years. So now since January the 1st, I've been the chief customer officer, which is a new grouping of functions. So it's including brand and marketing, loyalty, communications, PR, customer experience design, contact centers, clubhouses, our lounges and our cabin crew in flight teams.

1:36So it's the customer facing part of Virgin Atlantic. Yeah, and actually I didn't appreciate that you've got that operational side as well in terms of the cabin crew that are actually, you know, they're the ones ultimately doing with the customers day in, day out. Yeah, over 5 ,000 crew members. Wow, so it's a big number of people. And, you know, you are, as an organisation, as a business, you've always been known for being quite challenging and quite disruptive in the approach, which obviously goes way back. I mean, 1984, I think, you know, was when Sir Richard started Virgin Atlantic on the back of, I'm sure my age now, Laker going bust.

2:15Right. So you've got this long kind of history. But even in those early days, it was all around kind of doing things differently in a disruptive way. And we're going to talk a lot about brand and the things that you're doing today. But how much of that original sort of, you know, edgy, disruptive entrepreneurial spirit is still in the business today? because you're bringing it to life day in day out with your role now. How much of that DNA from Richard Branson is still there, do you think? I would claim that it's still there. Actually, it was amazing. Just two weeks ago, we had a capping crew team number 1000.

2:52So the capping crew training group of 1000 graduated. And two of the trainers who were training this team, new team of capping crew members, are from that first group, Group 1 in 1984. Wow. And there was a breathing example of that excitement, Ursula and Katie, that just live and breathe the Virgin Antiprat. And I would claim we still have it across the enterprise. And Richard, of course, is still active. Yes. Richard and his children. And they are the ones who sort of keep on reminding us, of course, the original ethos by being the challenger and fighting against complacency, laziness. because I think all industries, if there is no competition or limited competition, you can't be lazy.

3:36Yes, yeah. And that's what we're fighting against. Yeah, and obviously, you know, the early days of, in particular, with BA and challenging BA, I remember the price kind of war and all of this price fixing. I am definitely sure my age have been in the industry a long time. But, of course, now, you know, you're taking on BA again, right? Not just BA, all airlines, but in particular, you know, you've got some quite edgy approaches at the moment, haven't you, in terms of encouraging customers to move over? Talk about that a little bit. Yeah, I think all airlines or many businesses during the past few years have gone a bit mainstream and I would claim that even we went a bit mainstream in terms of riding on the right attributes of Virgin, what we stand for, but we have sort of moderated a bit of our language and the way that we approach the market.

4:28But actually what customers expect from us is to be that sharp, playful, brave, fun. And we feel, I feel that brands can be fun if it's in your DNA, if it's genuine, if it's authentic. And that's why we came up with this Save Your Tears campaign that we went out with in February to lure BA British Airways Club members to try the other side, try us and try our partner network. Because it's not only about Virgin Atlantic, it's the whole SkyTeam network of airlines that we work with. So there is a true alternative for UK based consumers who travel often. But people don't know about it. So it's about raising that awareness and do it in a playful, fun way.

5:14What was the response from the campaign then? Yes, we got over 10 ,000 applicants to match and it was not only about the match, you actually got one tier higher than what you were at BA, which was quite exceptional. Normally, you just match the same tier that the customer had. So we had a great response. Of course, now we need to bear the fruit and see the fruits when people start booking their trips. But that was one of the conditions. It's not only a match, you actually have to book and you have to fly in order to qualify. So I think it's a great opportunity for us and of course, for some other airlines as well to really lure the BA frequent flyers to try somebody else because it's all about choice and we need to be a bit better than the competition yeah yeah and so if someone would it would have been silver for example then they'd go up to gold but that was a limited time so you can't do that anymore that was a limited campaign period but if you still uh be a club gold member or silver you can still get the match bit of a plug there absolutely no but it is important because, like you say, customers have a choice, right?

6:18And I think we're increasingly impatient as well, right? Customers are more demanding. They know what they want. They want everything at their fingertips. They want a seamless customer journey. And, of course, with your new role, you've got the end-to-end customer journey. We're talking about the contact centre. So if someone's ringing up to, you know, they want some support with their booking or whatever, or maybe they're booking a flight and they want to add on or upgrade, right the way through to when they land back in their original destination and then the loyalty and continuing that whole customer journey.

6:52So when you look at that, Juha, how are you seeing customers changing, do you think, in what they expect from a brand and what they demand in terms of service? I think the base expectation nowadays is that people expect you to know them. and always give the next best offer or the next value add. Because we all know as consumers when we travel, we are quite critical in the first phase of being critical on the price and trying to get the best deal and arguing for yourself that you got the best deal. But we do need to admit, all of us, that when we are in the journey, you get slightly looser in terms of how you spend because you want to give yourself and your partner and whoever you travel with that sort of bit that extra and how can we further evolve our products so that we always have the next best offer for you so that if you decide to spend more or use your points well-earned points that we always have the next best offer for you and are we good at that no we're not yet but we're actively working on to make sure that we bring those value added elements throughout the journey And of course, that can really only be done by, of course, great innovation in terms of products, but also technology.

8:11And of course, technology has been a limiting factor for many of us. But I don't think we can use that as an excuse anymore going forward because of the world of AI and world of Wi-Fi connectivity. We can actually solve many of the things that has been limiting us in the past. So AI, hot topic and clearly a lot of businesses I think are finding their feet, sort of grappling. I think there's fear involved in some areas. I think there's excitement and opportunities as well and there's always any new technology comes with a certain amount of trepidation as well because again it challenges those businesses that have been around a long time with legacy systems and legacy processes etc.

8:55So how are you embracing AI in the whole customer journey? Because you've got some exciting things, your concierge, etc. that you're bringing in. So you're doing some pretty cool stuff, which I'd expect from Virgin, you, huh? But yeah, talk us through the AI piece a little bit more. Yeah. So actually, the first thing we did in the world of AI is actually in our pricing. So a couple of years ago, we teamed up with an Israeli-based company called Fetcher, which is predictive, you know, fair analysis on what is the market rates out there. How could we modify almost unlimited price points to make sure that we always bring the best offer to the marketplace.

9:33So that we launched a couple of years ago. Then Concheers, like you said, we launched last year. And actually this week we are the first airline to offer a Virgin Atlantic app within ChatGPT. So when you do your search, if you activate the Virgin Atlantic app to it, it will automatically, based on what you type or talk, ChatGPT will give you the next best offer on Virgin Atlantic. So we're the first airline in the world to implement and bring our concierge into ChatGPT. That's pretty cool. So that went out just a couple of days ago. So that's one. And then, of course, the usual stuff you could say that many companies are working with, we as well, in the contact center space.

10:15How can we first of all help our agents in the contact center space to be faster with next best advice to the customer. So we're working with that and of course how can we eliminate some of the calls and move them into an AI solution. So that's definitely one further area. And then my latest hobby you could say in my new area is marketing. How can we increase the efficiency of assessing assets? What kind of assets do we have? Can we produce some assets a lot quicker? We don't need a natural shoot of a scene anymore. Some of it can be done through AI. It's always a fair balance, of course, how you balance too, because you need that authenticity as well.

10:58Or consumer testing, which has tested one of our campaigns through AI. normally you send something to customer or consumer testing that takes weeks in a day AI will do that on your behalf because it has so much insight on consumer viewpoints that actually get a sort of quick and dirty analysis of a customer's expectation of your ad through AI. Wow it is phenomenal. It's just like exploring and we and I feel that you know every all of us are on a learning curve because we're the whole team is learning at the same time. Yeah. And I think there the version sort of mentality, being brave, being curious helps because the team are like hungry to learn as well.

11:41Yeah. Because of course there's the resistance dimension as well. Some people might be scared of, you know, will I lose my job because AI? And of course it's a healthy balance to think about. But equally I think it's what we aim to always argue for, which is truth. there's actually value adding so we can eliminate some of the less interesting tasks that you might have and which is a lot quicker. Yeah I mean I interviewed, it's interesting because I interviewed Piers Linney, you know Dragon's Den and he's massively into AI and stuff and he was saying what businesses and people need to realize is that AI today is the worst it's ever going to be and actually you know the pace of change and how it's going to really transform any business that isn't embracing it and using it is going to get left behind so it's really fantastic to see that you guys are and and i like the approach that you have around well let's try some stuff and let's be you know let's be curious let's explore and and be prepared as opposed to that not everything is going to work yeah it does make mistakes as well yeah so how do you how do you this is a good question for you how do you balance the approach to failing or things not going well at the same time when you've got you know commercial pressure you have to deliver the numbers the financials all of that kind of good stuff how do you balance that within Virgin and also with your own leadership style you have because it's not it's not always easy is it when you're under pressure got to hit the numbers shareholders you know and all of that kind of good stuff but at the same time you want to try some stuff how do you approach it yeah I mean one of one of the famous sort of quotes from Richard and doesn't exactly go as I say it, but his philosophy is that if you never fail, you haven't tried enough.

13:26And I think it's so true that, you know, we all get a bit safe sometimes in a world of, you know, in a corporate world. So my sort of personal philosophy is that I do expect, and it's an expectation slash demand for my direct reports that we need to challenge one another because I'm never, I'm not 100 % right. I'm, you know, I'm expecting myself to be wrong regularly. I want to be challenged and that has to be the culture that we need to. We all have diverse backgrounds in the team as well. And I love that, you know, having now in my new team, Capping Crew, the team, Julie, who runs our Capping Crew team and then our marketing team, they are coming from very different angles.

14:07But at the end of the day, when we bring them together in the same leadership team, it actually just creates a quite beautiful diversity of thought of an issue that we all are working with. Because at the end of the day, in our case, our brand and the face-to-face customer delivery comes together. And if these two dimensions never talk to one another, it might be an issue. But actually now having them together in the same leadership team, we actually can solve many of the issues that might have been unsolved in the past. Yeah, and I guess you've got that creative energy that marketing and brand bring, but then you've got the customer delivery that's actually making it happen directly on the ground.

14:45And if the two are disconnected, you end up with either over-promising and under-delivering, etc. So no, I think that's fantastic. Sorry, you were going to say that? Yeah, so I think overall, I think it's about you need to tolerate failures or mistakes, but I think you need to, of course, always learn from them. I think that's the main thing, that you can't keep on repeating a mistake. It's important that we learn. Every company makes a mistake. We have done mistakes, and you need to learn from it. Yeah, and it is tough, because the industry can be pretty brutal. You know, we have lots of challenges, anything that's going on globally.

15:18I mean, you know, we were talking earlier, obviously you've got the recent situation in the Middle East, which is causing a lot of pressure globally. You know, but we've been through Gulf War, ash cloud, 9-11, COVID, you know. So if you've been in travel, leisure, hospitality, aviation for a long time, we're used to kind of going through this and it can be a very very difficult time because of course you've got to you've got to keep that strength of leadership at the time when you don't necessarily have all the answers and it's very hard to predict what what's happening um so how how do you navigate through these disruptive times you have because you've had the commercial perspective for the seven years that you were managing through covid and now here we are again and you've got your customer hat on thinking right okay how do we deliver for our customers etc how do you manage it I mean, definitely one dimension that probably pandemic was the best learning curve was that sort of crisis preparedness, both in terms of you have your playbooks, what to do in a crisis, but also, of course, financial health and making sure that, you know, that applies both on a personal level, but of course, as an enterprise that you prepare for worse and have that sort of cash position that you can serve through that period.

16:32because we're living it now with the Middle East crisis that, you know, obviously it's not as severe as it stands right now, but some of the playbooks in terms of cash flow management, making sure that we can run the business with the increased risk of both fuel price increases, fuel supply, demand risks, all the similar themes that we had during the pandemic, we are discussing again, even though it's not as severe as pandemic. So it's the preparedness, that's one. But I think the second one, which is important to me personally, is honesty. We sometimes take people for granted or we think that it's better not to share troubling or concerning news.

17:15But actually many people actually want to know it's the uncertainty that's the worst. And showing that honesty gives confidence that the leader, first of all, realizes what the dimensions of the challenge are but also shows respect because we need to respect everyone in the company to the entitled to know where we are even though we wouldn't have all the answers necessarily yeah and actually you're right because sometimes we have to deliver bad news don't we you know and that might be an exit conversation or it might be actually you know we need to tighten our belts or whatever it might be but i think people genuinely just appreciate Even if it's bad news, just tell me.

17:54And be fair, be honest, be straight. And then I think people are able to deal with it. But you're right, it's the uncertainty, the not knowing. And you see sometimes cultures where there's a lot of conversations that are happening outside the room when they should happen in the room and all of that kind of stuff. And I agree with you. I think the best you can be is be true to your values, right, and go, you know, we're a straight-talking brand. We take challenges head on. We're creative. We want to work with our people. And I think that is so true, actually, especially when times are tough. Yeah, and I mean, humans are surprisingly adjusting.

18:31We all know the change curve. It could be your personal grief or it could be financial troubles, whatever it is. People get over it. That's how we're built. And I think we sometimes underestimate people's capability as well. And actually, then we get the best out of the people as well. We've seen that multiple times at Virgin Atlantic as well, that when we've been going through these different crises, pandemic as well, or even now, our frontline teams reach out to us. Have you thought about that? Have you thought about this? And from a cost-saving perspective, they come up with actually good ideas because they are there in the frontline seeing things that we could do differently.

19:09We could save on something or we could bring a new service that we haven't thought about. So people are a lot of, there's a lot of creativity and entrepreneurship actually now frontline. And many companies just underestimate that. So before we continue, I want to speak directly to those of you who are listening and thinking, I know I'm capable of more, but I need structure. I need some help. Because here's what I've actually learned after, gosh, more than three decades in business. You know, ambition without clarity creates frustration. And motivation without structure, it really does fade very, very fast.

19:56So that's exactly why we created Rise Academy. You know, and Rise Academy, it's not theory. It isn't fluffy motivation, although you will be motivated. And it certainly isn't another online course that you never finish. It's actually a fully structured growth environment for ambitious entrepreneurs, leaders and founders who absolutely are ready to do all of these things. Sharpen their strategy, elevate their leadership, increase revenue with intention and build businesses that actually support the life that they want. And inside Rise Academy, we focus on the foundations most people skip. Leading yourself, leading your teams and leading the business.

20:40It's about clarity, standards, decision making, commercial intelligence and execution. Because scaling, it really isn't about doing more. It's actually about doing the right things and doing the things right consistently. So if you're serious about stepping up into your next level of your leadership, your business life, you know, and not just consuming content, but actually implementing it, then Rise Academy was absolutely built for you. So you can find all the details on our website. Go to www.brave-bold-brilliant.com. And now let's get back to the show.

21:25and i actually think sometimes you can become too removed from the front line you know as you progress your career you know i've seen it a lot over over the years and i used to always like you know back to the floor and you you get yourself in uniform and you know you go in you go in and and um you know do a fly or stack brochures back in the day in a you know in a travel agent when we had those um but i think that's really where you learn what's going on in the business, isn't it? It's where you really understand the sentiment. And you're very much out there, Jukha, aren't you? You're out there with the team.

21:55You're out there. We see you all over social media, by the way. Yeah, I'm trying because I actually love it. I don't do it because I should do it. I actually love it. And I was in Swarton Sea last month. You didn't call me. Come on. You were probably traveling. I was there for one and a half days. It was very tight. But that's where our main contact center is. and the first thing I said to the team, we have over 500 people there, that's how I started my aviation career. I started as a call center agent for SAS in London in 1998 and when you go through that role, which is demanding, it's tough, you never know what is the next question the customers ask.

22:37It's the best way to learn the business and I have massive respect for everyone who works either at the airport or in contact center or wherever the role is when you are in the front line. is a demanding role. And that's where you also sort of learn the respect for these jobs because we wouldn't be here without those teams. Yeah, yeah, 100%. And you had an event quite recently. Well, actually, let's talk a little bit about the relationship with Marks & Spencers, two iconic brands coming together. But you were also there with Dame Joan Collins. That's right. One of the world icons. Yeah, when she entered the room, we knew that she's going to be there, but we stormed in straight with our crew.

23:21So I introduced our crew to her. She's 92, full of energy, full of glamour in a very nostalgic way. She loved the crew and she said, oh, I remember those good old times in upper class flying across the Atlantic. And you saw that glimpse in her eyes. She was absolutely amazing. She was there to launch her new vodka martini cocktail brand, only available in M &S stores. So go and check it out. That's her longevity secret. But still, you know, at that age, you know, still got the fire in the belly, still creative, still wanting to do something and not just sit back. Right. Which is wonderful. It makes it makes it makes me feel like, oh, I've got a long road ahead.

24:07you know is with plenty to do and and you've just you've had an iconic birthday yes recently 50 as we said sorry to rub it in 50 everyone do you feel how do you feel at this part of this stage of your life would you say well and how have you shifted do you think from kind of the younger view younger you as a leader and as a person now I would say that of course everybody Everybody always says, oh, this decade is going to be special, it's going to be the best decade. But actually, I, at least for now, a few weeks in as a 50-year-old, I do believe and I do hope that it's going to be one of the key decades of my life because you've gone through various decades, career steps in various countries as well, and taking risks.

24:58I think that's probably the biggest learning for me that over the years you've taken risks in terms of jumping into a new job that you might have not known, or the content and substance in it. You know, leaving your home country and going and study somewhere else and taking up a new role. It's risks. I could have chosen something else, but I didn't. And it's about being, of course, sort of honest and frank about it as well. But you have learned a lot. You feel that you have developed yourself. Still a lot to learn what I'm excited about but also increasingly have more to give back as well and I think that's what I really looking forward to in my current role and also in the future that you want to give back to other people and also give your learnings to other people because it's important because you need to share what you've learned.

25:50The upsides and downsides and that's what I feel sort of that gives me the biggest satisfaction when you feel that you can help someone yeah yeah no and it's that next generation of leaders coming through isn't it you know i think there's as you as you progress your career it becomes much more around you know holding a hand out pulling the next the next kind of generation up through and supporting them on the journey and you know you've had a really successful career and you you have progressed in roles sass thin air obviously virgin great great career and you've always been sort of progressing it looks like a linear ladder with your career you know when you look at your cv or your linkedin profile has it been like that in reality because because when i look at my career i would call it quite squiggly you know i've kind of kind of done a there's been a few twists and turns and what you necessarily see on the paper isn't the reality right so for your career has it been sort of linear did you always know the direction you were heading in or you know how have you progressed?

26:58I would say that I'm ambitious but I've never had the sort of specific role in mind or I've always been more intrigued by the challenge of the next role and of course there's no hidden secret I was in the CEO race I didn't get the job for Virgin Atlantic CEO race and I always want to say proactively because it also shows that you know you don't always win yes which is which and i'm 100 behind our new CEO corneille who was my colleague before and i'm grateful that he gave me the chance of of doing something new and that was the main thing the first thing i said to him when i congratulate after congratulating him was the fact that i would love to do something new you know challenge like challenge me back and I'm very grateful to him that he gave me the chief customer role because it's a new dimension for my career I can benefit from everything I've done to date but I can it sort of adds a new dimension and I feel I learn I think for me it's more about give me an interesting challenge and also give me something that I can learn from that tries to be more than a specific role yeah and it is interesting isn't it because I think you know our identity can become quite entwined with the jobs that we do and the roles that we have, et cetera.

28:13And chapeau to you as well to be able to say, I put my hat in the ring, I wasn't successful, but congratulations and I'm here and I want to be part of the future. Because, you know, a lot of people maybe wouldn't have felt that way and maybe would have said, oh, actually, you know, I'm a little... Time to go. Yeah, time to go, time to move on. And whichever those choices are, you know, you will always go on and do something great. But I do, I think that's a really, really fantastic way of looking at things because we don't always win. We don't always get what we want. We get the knockbacks and how you kind of brush yourself off.

28:49Did you always, when you were going through that and the process, did you have in the back of your mind, well, obviously I want to be successful, but if I'm not, I would still like to stay? Had you already kind of worked out a plan B or were you just focusing on, you know, go through the process and see what happens? How did it happen? Did you have to lick your wounds a little bit? I'm sure because any disappointment takes a bit of time to kind of regroup. Obviously, the process lasted for a few months. And of course, you had a chance to think various options. And of course, you were mainly focusing on, of course, getting it.

29:22But equally, I was quite open to consider both also leaving. Now, of course, it's a viable option. But when I knew that it was Cornille that got the job, I knew that we could work together. and I knew that it could be an actually very great duo to work together. And luckily he saw the same way and we found this new balance, which is perfect for me and it's hopefully will be good for the company as well. So it's good for him because obviously he's building a new team around him. So he needs people that he can trust and he knows. So it was a great, great, great marriage in that sense for the next phase.

30:01Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's an exciting time. and because you're doing all this innovation stuff, I mean, coming back to the M &S deal, right, we're bringing two great brands together. I mean, obviously, the fact that Joan Collins was there was a nice bonus, clearly. But actually, you know, the brand partnership is quite edgy. The stuff that you're doing with the AI concierge, you know, there's lots of innovation happening here. And it seems that that's gathering pace, actually, for you guys, you know, and you're not complacent. And it's, you know, new leadership team, fresh approach, lots of excitement around the future.