Samantha Sheriff On Focussed Leadership and Creating Triumph From Organisational Change

25:50Samantha Sheriff:out if you would like to see our cfo in a menno vest um please head over to our linkedin on all in um so we brought in um we brought in this organization over the bloody moon they're called there you go and they brought in a period simulator and a menopause vest to be able to simulate experience right so that we could raise awareness that's amazing i've never heard of that We had our chief security officer, his wife came in so that she could turn the pain up on the simulator. Absolutely all power to you, Carl, obviously. And that's an example of some of the events that we do. And they're so well attended and well supported.

26:29Samantha Sheriff:And it really is an organisation where I think people can feel that they can turn up and be themselves. They can talk about anything they want to talk about. myself and the chief security officer we're the executive sponsors for the mental health community mental health really really very close to both of our hearts for personal reasons and we both feel really strongly about being able to talk openly about mental health and it's done in a way here where people just it doesn't feel like there are any barriers to it yeah and so actually I think that's something from a culture perspective we should be super super proud of because if you think about organizations you've been in and you've worked with that have been under a lot

27:12Jeannette:of pressure you can sometimes forget about yourself yeah um and forget and not think about yourself

27:18Samantha Sheriff:and you know talk speak up when you're perhaps experiencing something and we were talking about menopause right earlier we joke about the things that we keep forgetting and and actually you know it's an organization where i feel really comfortable to be able to say you know just can't remember who I am some days and I think we should be so so proud of that here yeah so so it's almost

27:39Jeannette:de-stigmatizing some of this stuff which is very human these are human emotions we all have pressures we all have things going on outside of work we all have daughterly guilt or whatever it might be or motherly guilt and and I think that's that's really healthy and it is quite rare I would

27:54Samantha Sheriff:say yeah it is I've never known an organization like yeah and it's something we're incredibly

27:58Jeannette:be proud of yeah and I guess you're of a size well a couple of things I suppose one you you've had the opportunity to to create a new team from bringing these two two parties together which again is not easy I've done a lot of M &A work so yeah I could when you mentioned that yeah oh god yeah post deal integration that's always yeah I mean it's not without its challenges exactly but you do have the opportunity to kind of write the rule book I suppose to a certain degree and that's obviously what you've done you know in terms of saying well okay what do we stand for what do we want to be how do we want to kind of operate and and with the exec then as a board what do you think makes you successful as a board you know in terms of your your approach obviously you've got some diversity in there clearly yeah but you've got more men than women still on the exec right and you've got a very supportive non-exec board as well haven't you and so so what what's been successful do you think in terms of setting the tone from the top what's worked and how has that influenced the culture and people's strategies?

28:57Samantha Sheriff:I think that's a really good question because one of the things I haven't mentioned is that this executive team is brand new. It was from scratch from the start of the license. We brought over some of the historical Camelot exec team but they were always really clear that they wanted to step away at some point but they really wanted to make sure they were part of the successful... Hand it over, kind of, in a nice way. Exactly so. They wanted to feel they handed this over in really great shape and get it to a really good point. And so I think they should feel incredibly proud. And we're very lucky that they did that.

29:32Samantha Sheriff:But it is a new exec team that was having to find its way of what do we stand for as a team? And how do we want to show up to the organisation? And how are we going to get them behind this? And I think one thing that's been really important, and I feel very passionately about it anyway. I mean, we've been talking for 20 minutes or so, and you've probably realised already, I'm a very authentic person. What you see here now and at work is what my husband gets at home and what my mates get down the pub at the weekend. And I don't think I could do this job the justice it deserves if you've got another version of me.

30:09Samantha Sheriff:And I think as an executive team, we've really showed up that way. and we talked to the organisation as us. And actually one of the things we tried to do much more over the last, probably over the last 12 to 18 months from feedback from our initial engagement survey was help them get to know us a little bit more because we were very heads down. And actually I think for us there was a kind of building confidence with the organisation mode and showing them how we were going to operate. And so, you know, you'll hear us now talk very openly at the, we call them our all-ins, where all of our employees come together every quarter.

30:46Samantha Sheriff:We have a monthly town hall, but every quarter or minimum twice a year, we come together in person. And you hear us joking about our chief technology officer, we call him Tigger, and we call our chief customer officer Eeyore. So that's Chris and Mark.

31:02Jeannette:And they balance each other off very well.

31:04Samantha Sheriff:And I think being able to take the mickey out of yourself, I think, is really important because I think it shows people that you're a person. And I think I've been very lucky because of my time working across both organisations prior to the licence transferring over, I could really help them get to know me as well and what was really important to me. And I think that's something we've tried to do as an exec, is really help the organisation understand what's important to us. is around authentic leadership. This technical transition that we've made is really important to us because we solely believe this will help us transform the national lottery.

31:45Samantha Sheriff:And we are all 100 % behind growing returns to good causes. And I think as we reflect as an exec team, we're not perfect, right? I like to think I am. My husband tells me I'm not. I don't know what he's talking about. I mean, he knows nothing. but I think what we've tried to be what we've tried to be really clear on with the organisation is our aim is to double returns to good causes if we reflect because we've been so focused on the technical transition probably what we want to really double down on as we head into next year is how we're going to do that through the fantastic games that we're going to launch and as I said different ways to play with each other so I think you've got to be a bit humble you've got to really be clear with the organization as what you're about so we said to the organization for example what you can expect from us is a no nonsense direct style of communication yeah you know we don't want to fluff and mince words and

32:42Jeannette:so I think it's really important to do that you mentioned our boards and I think it's really

32:46Samantha Sheriff:important to touch on them we have a really supportive board um and and you'll see from our boards that they've come from some really fantastic names some big brand names yes and they're so supportive and actually we're going through a meet the board series at the moment where we've had both adrian and sharon in coming to talk to the organization around kind of their

33:08Jeannette:perspective as a board member yeah and you have sebastian co on there as well and actually he's

33:14Samantha Sheriff:you to come in we will have simon burke come in um justin our chair was our last all in because we think it's really important and I know the board feel it's really important for them to connect with the organization as well we don't want them just to connect with us no because I think that's

33:29Jeannette:how they help us be successful as well yeah and we can also help them be successful but we have

33:34Samantha Sheriff:a fantastic relationship with the boards and also we have some of our all-in group colleagues on the UK board as well which really helps us also ensure that we're part of the bigger all-in vision as well and so it's it really is quite a great group of people working together to be honest and you do feel super super supportive yeah supported so well I think I think you know setting the tone

33:59Jeannette:from the top is so important isn't it and sometimes you end up inheriting a lot and some of that can be positive some of it can need some changes or maybe or maybe someone's been great for a particular period of an organization and they're just not going to be part of the future and that's fine isn't it we say farewell in a nice way and I think that that's great but you talk about authenticity a lot and you clearly are you know what you see is what you get I mean we met each other at um balance the board that's right right so big shout out to Holly Addison and balance the board and you were on stage you were on a panel I did a little bit of a short keynote and then we got chatting didn't we and straight away we were like right Sam's gotta come on the podcast so I knew straight away but sometimes you know I like to talk I love it I love it but you know sometimes you just click with someone yeah and that's that's how i felt when i met you and i think we're having

34:45Samantha Sheriff:a conversation about heels or something yes we're a really important topic if you're a female

34:50Jeannette:perspective i think that's what you should do you should get the male exec in heels i agree that would be great there you go new initiative i wore heels all the time prior to covid and now i never wear them well i think it would be great just the pain the pain for the beauty but anyway my my point about authenticity right so you bring all of you to your job your energy and that can be draining as well right but you bring all of yourself um to to a job and to a role so take us back to get to know you a little bit yeah right so so sam growing up how your careers kind of evolved just just give us a bit of the backstory on you if that's if that's all right because i think that is what makes you you and makes you authentic as a leader and this is a no bullshit podcast so we like to see the person behind the wall um this is the this is your life moment

35:43Samantha Sheriff:and it's funny actually because because I'm people are always surprised at me about this at this about me but because I talk so much and I'm so outgoing I'm probably the last person I

35:52Jeannette:always talk about and I always recognize yeah and I get called up on it a lot by people who love me

35:58Samantha Sheriff:and as they rightly should yes um so I guess if I go right right back um my grandparents were a huge influence in my life greater than I think any grandparents normally would be um and I feel really grateful for it and uh you know like a lot of people my brothers and sisters and I you know it was difficult at times growing up and um we weren't sort of the average family that you know parents are still together years later and I've got lots of challenges with it and so and they always really instilled in me that if I instilled in me that if I wanted something I needed to work hard for it um and I always needed to be clear as to what support I needed or where I was going and always have a plan right um and so I have always had a plan and I've never forgotten that I always have like my sort of I used to be a five-year plan I think as I've got older I've you know you start thinking about different things as you get older right and you know hopefully one day retiring and just going off on holiday all the time right and that's the aim um my husband will tell you I don't want to retire because I love working too much and he's probably right yeah yeah I would say I've worked some way shape or form since I was probably about 11 so when I had a paper round you know and I've always been whatever job I've had I've always wanted to give it my all and as you say that can sometimes be quite draining and I'll talk about perhaps a specific point in my career where it really did sort of hit me a little bit yeah um but so I I grew up as I say with a heavy influence um with and I think I had to grow up a lot earlier than perhaps a lot of children might have done uh this isn't a woe is me or anything just being really honest um and and so as I got older I went through school did my GCSEs I had a bit of a period where I was like yeah what do I want to do in the future you know I just want to be my teenage self forever and I wasn't sure how well I was going to do in my exams so I thought I need a bit of a fail safe just in case and so I went to college and trained to be a chef but specialised in baking and cake decorating

38:10Jeannette:Wow

38:10Samantha Sheriff:Yeah I know, yeah So if you need a good cake Not me actually, I don't have time to make cakes but I still really enjoy cooking right now but I got really interested in it And then I went to university, did a H &D in food science and business. And I was thinking, oh, I quite like the business side of this. And then I started thinking, what do I want to do with this qualification long term? I wasn't quite sure, but I knew I wanted to take a couple of years out. And so I went and lived in Greece as a holiday rep.

38:41Jeannette:That's an entirely other podcast, just to be clear.

38:44Samantha Sheriff:That is a completely different podcast, a completely different audience. but I was a holiday rep and for a couple of years I lived in Rhodes

38:53Jeannette:who were you a rep for? can you remember? I knew you were going to ask me that

38:56Samantha Sheriff:so I used to work for 20s 20s? I know which again is why it's another podcast

39:03Jeannette:20s, buddies, 18, 30s this is a news market this is a news market

39:07Samantha Sheriff:I'm moonlit for 18 to 30s oh there we are it's all coming out now exactly and actually

39:12Jeannette:when I think back to that job you learn a lot though right? when I think back to that job

39:16Samantha Sheriff:I actually think that job set me up really well for a career in HR. Yeah, yeah. Because you just get thrown at anything and everything, and you just have to deal with it. I know, I know. Anyway, when I came back from Greece, I started working at Sony because I wanted to get some money together to go back to university and potentially do take my food science further and my business qualification. But I started to really enjoy my role at Sony, and I was in a contact centre role. and I quickly got promoted up to a contact centre manager. As I say, I'm all in. When I'm in, I'm all in. Go big or go home for me.

39:52Samantha Sheriff:And I was with Sony for about five years and at that point they were closing the building that I was in and I got offered to either go and set up an entirely new call centre and either take the head of contact for the UK role or I could step into an HR role because I was starting to get a real interest in HR because I was dealing with a lot of HR stuff, as one normally does in a management role. And at the end of that, so I went and set the new call centre up, recruited for it, and then I thought, I need to go and experience life elsewhere. I've been with Sony for five years. And so I took a big pay cut, went to work for a hospitality organisation.

40:35Samantha Sheriff:They deal with, at the time, had very few high-end luxury properties.

40:41Jeannette:Oh, nice.

40:41Samantha Sheriff:And I worked in a group HR role there. As I say, I took a pay cut. I started doing my CYPD. I had a fantastic mentor. She was phenomenal. And she just threw any project at me that I could take. Whether she thought I could take it or not, she was going for it. I was really lucky because I got a lot of exposure to the board during that role as well. And then after five years of being there, I decided I needed to go and really, I wanted to develop some more ER skills through HR. I've always been really deliberate in my career in terms of the moves I've made so I've worked cross industries on purpose because I wanted to be able to show on my CV that I could um that I could you know my skills are transferable yeah um and I've always looked at roles with what is that role going to bring me from a development perspective always thinking back to what my grandparents said is like you always need to think about what you need for where you're going yeah um and so I went and worked for CEMEX um so if you want ER experience go work for a construction organization right so in spades I've done it not again thank you and I had a I had a great time there and really cutting my teeth on ER really getting some heavy ER you know complex cases and I was one of their high potentials there and I would have gone into you know longer term probably an HR director role there but you know they had a lot of people that had been there for a very long time and so it just wasn't somewhere I could see myself progressing in the time frame that I had and then a role came up after about four years at CEMEX at a place called then called EYC and they were looking for their kind of first HR director I say first they've been through two prior to me joining you hadn't lasted more than 60 days each so there was a running bet when I joined as to how long I would join and for any of my ex-colleagues watching this who had a bet on me I know who you are and I stayed there for 10 years now a lot of people look at me and go 10 years that's a long time to stay in an organization well actually I would say in that time it was you know it was three to five different companies in that time because we went through a lot of M &A work and now they are, so they're now called Symphony AI and they are the leaders in agentic AI for retailers and CPGs.

43:02Samantha Sheriff:It's quite a phenomenal journey they've been on and I always had in my mind when I was there what I wanted to get to, what I wanted to achieve before I left and one of those achievements was achieving Great place to work and in the year that I did leave I we achieved great place to work in all nine eligible countries so it was a real and you know I had a fantastic team and you know we did phenomenal things there and I was really lucky in that role because I was really really well supported by fantastic CEOs the chairman and founder I was a real close confident to him and I think that's really important when you're in senior HR roles yeah is to really be the glue with your CEO or your chair.

43:46Jeannette:Yeah.

43:46Samantha Sheriff:And from a very, as I say, balanced commercial and people perspective. And I had arrived there. It was fantastic. And it was a real difficult decision for me as to whether to leave that role or not. And it was, I won't, I'm not a big crier, but I have to say there were a few tearful moments there because we did so much and achieved so much together. And I'm really proud of everything we achieved there. And it continues to go from strength to strength. and as I say now they're the leaders um and they're so well known in the retail and cpg market um but I wanted to take a break after that and uh I think I mentioned to you I was going to take a year off um and then this came calling and I wanted to go and do another big transformation and something that I could really put my heart into because I am somebody who if you go and do something I put my heart and soul into it probably too much um and and as I say then this happened but I think you talked earlier about sometimes that can be a little bit draining on you yeah is there was a particular point in my career in 2016 when I was at symphony where it did all become a bit too much to be honest um and I was trying to be everything for everybody and if my husband was here he'd probably tell you that the one thing he probably wishes the most for me is that I could tell sometimes when I need to slow down yeah and when I need to look after myself a bit more and I would say I've got a lot better at it since 2016 because I had quite a serious panic attack at work and I thought I was having a heart attack and it was a real turnaround moment for me and I was so again so well supported by the organization and actually at the time I tried to resign because I felt like if I can't work like this then I just I'm no good to anybody and actually one of the best things they did for me was say you just need to take a bit of time out um and rest you know you haven't taken a holiday and you know however long working all hours it was a global role so it was it was a big job um and there was a lot going on and a lot I was trying to sort of juggle but I think the message I and one of the reasons I feel very passionately about the mental health community we have here is because I really see the importance and value of being able to speak up yeah um because and I don't ever want anybody to get to a point where

46:09Jeannette:I got to where it all just became too much um because that's not a nice place for anybody

46:15Samantha Sheriff:no and actually I think it wasn't until a year later that my husband told me how hard it was for him watching me during that because he was it actually makes me look croaky thinking about it you know because it's I'm almost a bit of a hurricane at times where I just I have this view of what I want to do and I get so excited about stuff I forget to think about myself yeah so I think if I was giving anybody advice it is really about making sure that you do look after yourself and you know and you recognize when you're perhaps feeling a little bit out of sorts or whatever it might be so I'm much better now at making sure I take leave that I just take a moment if it is all a bit too much yeah and I asked for help yeah I was

46:57Jeannette:terrible at asking for help and I think that's probably something from when I

47:00Samantha Sheriff:was younger you know where I just dealt with a lot of stuff myself so well it's

47:05Jeannette:not stick up a lip isn't it and that kind of work ethic and you know just get on with it yeah you know it's life isn't always easy yeah it's a crack on

47:13Samantha Sheriff:yeah and when you think about progress like having this conversation never would have happened in 2016 no I would have felt so ashamed to say it out loud that I'd felt like that um but now I think actually if it even just helps one person think actually I'm feeling a bit off right now yeah you know maybe I need to just step back and take a minute for myself yeah and actually

47:34Jeannette:it's a strength isn't it to be able to say listen you know I'm struggling or I just need a break or and to recognize that that's not a weakness that's that's a strength to do that and yet Yet sometimes I think as society, we kind of paint this perfect world of how we should be. And social media doesn't help as well sometimes.

47:53Samantha Sheriff:Well, one of the decisions I made at the time was around that time was to come off of social media. Okay. I'm still on LinkedIn. Yeah, professionally and stuff.

48:02Jeannette:Yeah, because I think it's really important.

48:04Samantha Sheriff:And I actually feel really, I see the benefit in LinkedIn in terms of how I can educate future HR professionals. yeah and so I mentor through the CIPD for example that's something it's really I feel very passionately about and actually I think social platforms used

48:21Jeannette:wisely can be so powerful yeah but I didn't want anything that was really

48:25Samantha Sheriff:negatively influencing me and what I realized which was I can't believe I'm saying this out loud and I didn't realize it at the time it was totally in my control not to be on any of that yes so but I get my social interaction in

48:38Jeannette:other ways now and I in the real world and it's not to say that I'm not you know like a technophobe

48:46Samantha Sheriff:or anything like that not absolutely not I mean I the the power for example of AI to be able to transform organizations and actually um for people to be able to upskill themselves develop and add value to organizations I think is there's huge potential there and I'm so behind that but I think there are things around social media like the Facebooks and Instagrams as well sorry Mark Zuckerberg that I'm just so not here for so yeah well it's a choice isn't it yeah that's the point it's in your control to choose isn't it does this work for me or does it not um and so when you were when

49:18Jeannette:you were in that sort of pretty you know torrid time that you're in in 2016 and you've had you've had the sort of the fallout the bit of a bit of a sort of burnout shall we say really how what was a journey back I know you said you took some time off but what were some of the things that helped you the most you think during that time to sort of kind of because I think when you're in a dark not not even not necessarily a dark place but we can all find ourselves in times when we're we're not feeling great we're you know we've got some mental health stuff going on or we're just out of kilter yeah or and for some people that can be quite extreme as we know and and for other people it's just you know not not being not being able to function as you normally would do but what were some of the things that helped you that might help other people if they're thinking shit I'm recognizing this in me now what what one of the things I think at the time that I couldn't wrap my head around was why they didn't want me to resign okay I kept thinking I'm not used to them

50:16Samantha Sheriff:if I'm gonna fall over at work and can't handle whatever's thrown at me then why on earth would they want to keep me so you'd kind of written yourself written yourself yeah but they obviously had they could know and I think what that spoke to was something that I know probably a lot of people who are watching slash listening to this yeah probably relate to is imposter syndrome yeah and what I think I realized when talking so I did go and see a therapist um and I was very skeptical going in because I've always been at school you sort your own problems out yeah um and actually it was a real like wow moment for me because I think it realized that I really registered for me that I had massive imposter syndrome and and I I kept always thinking I've got to work this way to be able to demonstrate my value um when actually when I spoke to my chair at the time and said you know why don't you want me to leave like if I can't work like this for you and he sat me down and said these are all the ways that you bring value to this organization and you help this organisation grow.

51:21Samantha Sheriff:These are the ways that you don't bring value. And working yourself to the bone and working 24-7 is not something that is going to help this organisation grow and it's not what we see value in in you. And it was this light bulb moment for me because I just kept thinking, I am doing all this stuff. And so I think, I said this to somebody who I'm mentoring recently actually because they were having a moment of imposter syndrome. is write down all the things that you're doing at the moment and the role that you're playing in those in whatever those items are write down the role that you're playing because actually it does actually it wasn't someone I was mentioning it was someone on my team write down all the things that you're doing and and put your name against the thing because it is a moment yeah and they said it really helped them because they were feeling a little bit overwhelmed and they were thinking am I doing a good job you know the reality of it is is you're likely doing an absolutely stomping job but you're just being really tough on yourself yeah and then I think just recognizing the physical triggers um inside yourself and when it all gets a bit and you're thinking actually that's a that's a moment where I felt like that before so and don't get wrong it's not easy and being kind to yourself I think is probably one of the hardest things that we all struggle with because we live in a world right now where we're so connected we've probably been never been more disconnected because of the way we're communicating and interacting yeah which is why i think there has to be for me an element of in-person interaction why i feel so strongly about this hybrid world there's such a benefit to being at home and just being able to get your head down right yeah yeah um but there is also i mean for me during covid it was really tough for me because i get a lot of my energy from being in person and doing this right like i'm so happy we did this in person but for a lot of people who are sitting behind screens all the time and actually don't want to speak up and say actually it's a bit tough for me right now because they may be suffering with imposter syndrome they don't want to put their head above the parapet could be anything I think that's quite difficult so I actually think whilst it's tough for some people bringing people back into the organization I do actually think it will help with people feeling like they can speak up more and perhaps talk to their managers or whoever it might be about where

53:41Jeannette:they're feeling a little bit overwhelmed yeah yeah no 100 and it's it's so important to have these kind of conversations isn't it because what you're doing through this i mean you know you're this is what you live and breathe every single day professionally but i think what you're doing is you're kind of by sharing your real story one people might go oh i don't feel so alone now because i recognize that in myself yeah two they've seen that you've faced it come through the other side as are a better leader a better person a better wife a better friend you know all of that as a result of almost not doing less but being smarter with how you work right thinking that the way you work has to be how you drive value for an organization yeah I mean don't

54:26Samantha Sheriff:get me wrong there's no silver bullet that will take it away ever so for example we're in the middle of 360 at the moment end of year reviews all of that yeah and the first place I go to are what are the things I need to do better yeah and then I go to what are the things that people value the most last and actually one of the things that comes out as a consistent theme is me being very authentic and not being afraid to give personal experiences of whatever it might be yeah um I think that's so important from a leadership perspective yeah I mean we're all perfectly

54:57Jeannette:imperfect at the end of the day, aren't we? Absolutely. A colleague and I used to, a colleague and I, who I'm sure will watch this actually, we used to describe each other as practically

55:06Samantha Sheriff:perfect in every way, like Mary Poppins, knowing full well that we were practically imperfect. So I've never forgotten it. I love that.

55:16Jeannette:See, great minds think alike. There it is. But it is fantastic. And you look at your journey, you look at where life started for you, where you are now what you've achieved professionally what you've achieved personally how you've shaped and grown as a person what would you what would you say has been the biggest adjustment for you if you think about you early career and like where you are now what what a sort of what's the biggest thing that you if you reflect on you as a leader you as a person that's kind of shifted um over that time i mean there's loads i know i mean there really is right and i've i've always

55:51Samantha Sheriff:always quietly thought I can do anything I set my mind to because of you know how I've been brought up as well as long as you work hard for it it's not just never going to be given to you no no you know um and I think it's always consistently remembering that is that you need to work hard

56:08Jeannette:for what you want don't expect anyone to give it to you no um and and I think that's probably

56:13Samantha Sheriff:sometimes my biggest frustration is when people want to progress but don't tell me how they're going to do it. But I guess the biggest adjustment for someone like me who likes to be able to prove the value that she'll bring to an organisation is so results focused is delegating. It was a moment where I just went, oh, I don't have to do absolutely everything. Who knew? I have a fantastic team and I've been really fortunate to have had fantastic teams throughout my career and that I feel you know I can trust and that take the time to get to know what's important to me and for me to also get to know them I think getting out of somebody's way so that they can progress has been so powerful and then you see how people progress and how they just absolutely flourish like that and that's one of my greatest passions as a leader is is enabling and watching people develop and do the things that they probably never thought they could do yeah and I think that's a it helps you it helps them you know it's um don't get me wrong I still love to get my sleeves rolled up but when people come and tell me stuff I'm like you sure you want me to know this because once I know I can't unknow and I might get in um and I think but I think it's about finding also a manager who understands you and understands what's important to you so my boss for example she knows you know she values what I bring strategically and how I can help drive the growth of the organization but she also knows that I really like getting into some stuff as well and so she'll give me that opportunity too yeah um and so I think being able to find that balance as a leader is really important and I think that's that's also helped me then think about what's next for me from a kind of career perspective and what do I want to I told you I always have a plan right and part of that plan was becoming a non-executive um non-executive path um and so the last year I've been sitting on the Surrey police and crime panel as an independent which is absolutely fascinating and I something I really enjoy but I think I'd only

58:26Jeannette:been able to take that step and that is a next step in my career if I had if I if I hadn't have

58:32Samantha Sheriff:learned to delegate if I hadn't have learned to trust um and if I hadn't have been very clear around what my goals were and how I was going to achieve it because sitting on the other side of the table to being an executive very different yeah it's very different um and I was I sat on the Deloitte I was lucky to get on the Deloitte women on boards program and one of the things they said which always stuck with me was that around a non-exec being nose in hands off yeah it's really the other way around when you're an executive yeah so being able to learn how to balance the two is important and so understanding what you need to do from a leadership perspective in your executive career it's really really important to that and as I mentioned earlier we have fantastic neds sitting on our board so yeah I have really good people that I can learn

59:18Jeannette:from as well so but but that's also around you knowing yourself dealing with the imposter syndrome and dealing with some of the other stuff to allow you to adapt and to change and to recognise where you evolve as a leader as well, right? With all of that good stuff and communication being absolutely at heart of that. So if you were thinking about all of the great advice you might have had over the years, can you think of any standout advice that's really helped you?

59:44Samantha Sheriff:So people are great at giving HR people advice.

59:48Jeannette:I get a lot of advice. All the bad advice that you've ignored, baby. I get a lot of advice thrown my way. If I was you. Thanks for that.

59:56Samantha Sheriff:So there are a few people, I think, in my career that I could say they've really helped me in terms of framing my thinking, developing and whatever it might be. But there was one CEO in my career who really stands out for something. He said to me that I probably think about every week. I talk to my team about it. And so it's just stuck with me. And I think it's really helped, especially for somebody who is very results focused and likes to get in. is he said to me, get into the detail and everything else will follow. So for example, if you're given a load of data, don't just accept that that is what you're being told.

1:00:35Samantha Sheriff:Make sure you really understand it. And I think when you think about HR professionals in particular, the really good HR professionals are the ones that are super commercial as well. And that's something I've always really prided myself on. Now to do that, you really need to understand the business and how it operates and you know the commercial model of it or the economical model of it shall we say and I think his advice has really helped me build and a really strong commercial muscle and I've never forgotten it and he has been actually a fantastic mentor in many different ways to be honest so so I'm always very very grateful for that advice yeah and I always think as a leader just as a

1:01:19Jeannette:build on that I think you have to be like a helicopter you've got to be able to hover up here looking at the horizon do the big strategic thing and focusing on the you know the big investments or whatever it may be but then you've got to know when to land get stuck in and then take off again having you and that ability to adjust if you know enough to be able to have the

1:01:36Samantha Sheriff:confidence to lift out because otherwise people won't be successful around you and I think the other key piece of advice that I give leaders um so this is about advice I give out now yes is around knowing when to be a good umbrella versus a good funnel because I think being a good leader means that you need to understand what has to cascade down yeah versus what needs to be managed up here as an exec because yeah and that could be anything right but your job is essentially to motivate a team and keep the troops behind you and get them to follow you and if you're constantly cascading stuff down that's that's not the right thing to do and so So I think really understanding that umbrella versus funnel moment in the various parts of your career and days and hours as a leader is absolutely critical and should never be forgotten.

1:02:29Samantha Sheriff:And so many leaders who I've said that to have just really resonated with them. And they've said, I always think about that, what you said to me, about the umbrella versus funnel moment. and it's it's uh and I I don't know where I came up with that from to be honest but I think it's

1:02:45Jeannette:just how I try and operate as a leader yeah yeah and often you're the buffer you know you're kind of dealing with some stuff that you think well it's not about keeping things from people but it's like do you really need all the stress and anxiety of what might be associated with I just dump all that and it's not even just stress and anxiety it's just you know for example if I talked about

1:03:03Samantha Sheriff:everything we're going to do in you know three years time or whatever it might be overwhelm overwhelm yeah you know I want you to focus on what your strategic goals are the plans to be able to deliver them and actually the world could change in three years yeah so there's no point me get you getting you after something that we didn't we don't know isn't going to be the case yeah you know so we have a people in places strategy that the myself and the entire people in places leadership team team have created together we know that's our 10-year vision right I'm not going to get them after other things in three to five years that may change yeah so it is it's about whatever those moments are is about understanding when it's an umbrella versus funnel moment yeah yeah no I love

1:03:45Jeannette:that so it's a really selecting the messaging yeah and being able to have style of messaging yes yeah that nowson and one of the questions I get a lot is

1:03:53Samantha Sheriff:you're always smiling so much and I remember walking into a kitchen once in my last job and someone saying someone said oh I've had such a day of it today and I said oh so I know what you mean they said how could you possibly know what I mean and I said what do you mean he said you're always happy and I said well then I'm doing my job you know um because I don't want everyone to know if I'm having a bad day no so it's yeah

1:04:18Jeannette:yeah and it can be it can be tough you know we talked we touched on menopause and and you know that that's a whole other ball game isn't it you know and how that affects our mood and our communication and how we come across to people and and building the understanding of the organization you know and I know I was saying oh you're on the you're on the spray yeah I'm on the

1:04:38Samantha Sheriff:gel I mean that's like a curveball right that you can never plan for I mean I say I've got a three to five year plan what I didn't plan on was menopause and coming and kicking my ass like a few years into it yeah exactly um and going what on earth is happening um and actually I remember saying to a friend at the time how I was feeling and she said to me I think you need to see somebody because that that doesn't sound like you yes um and i was like i'm fine i'm just having a bad day you know but actually i started thinking gosh i keep feeling like this i keep having words dropping out of my head and but i think what's really important and what i realized going on my perimenopause journey is that is the importance of advocating for yourself um because not everyone has the confidence to do that and i knew something wasn't wrong and i ended up saying look if you don't think I'm perimenopausal you need to give me a brain scan because something else is going on yes yes and then asking for somebody who was female health trained was just it was a game changer to be honest so if I can give anyone that advice it's that yeah because it is a curveball that if you're female then it's going to just likely just come out of nowhere yeah and actually

1:05:48Jeannette:I mean obviously it's a female issue but for all the guys in our lives in whichever capacity colleagues bosses friends husbands boyfriend whatever yeah brothers you know it actually does have well i don't want to give my husband any credit you know so we don't know but yeah

1:06:02Samantha Sheriff:it's hard right and actually i talked about our colleague communities earlier um our women's community they they actually set up a menopause um i think it was a good time to talk and actually we had so many men join to say i want to know how i can support my wife or my partner through this and they were just absolutely flabbergasted to hear you know how some of the experience is and I thought and again coming back to this inclusive culture that we have I was really proud of that yeah you know like it was such a conversation moment for it and so I just and I'm really actually happy with the way the world's gone where we do talk about female health much

1:06:41Jeannette:more like that so well we make it so we make it a safe space don't we yeah and I mean I often I just call it out if I'm having I go oh my god I'm having a menopausal moment I've totally forgotten

1:06:50Samantha Sheriff:your name it'll come back to me oh yes there we are yeah I said something to my husband yesterday and I said oh that's a menopause moment he said you can't keep blaming menopause I was like yes I can

1:07:00Jeannette:yeah I know I had that very similar parallel conversation I said at what point have I menopausal versus just been a bitch yeah I'm going to go menopause most of the time

1:07:11Samantha Sheriff:I know what my husband would say if I said that to him

1:07:15Jeannette:but it is, you've got to bring some humour to stuff haven't you amazing, now with this year, if you could think of this year Sam and you were trying to describe it in one word what word would that be? can you think of a word that would describe the year?

1:07:33Samantha Sheriff:it's hard isn't it, picking up I think is the word I would use because it's just been so multifaceted it's been tough it has been really hard but oh my god it's been so much fun you know we've done we've achieved some really amazing things from an organizational perspective and which as I said earlier we should we are and should be collectively very proud of and the impact that's had on people as I say whether you've won national lottery money or whether you've been a recipient of good cause funding it's been phenomenal what we've achieved in some extremely difficult circumstances and i think one of the things i haven't probably talked about inadvertently talked about it is that we are the probably the most public private organization in the uk and so we do it all in in the very public eye and so i think it has wow is probably unbelievable bonkers you know like what are the words and actually personally I would say from a describing this year I'd say it's been whilst it's been difficult I've really tried to maintain some balance as well you know we've had some great holidays um and some great time together and I think that's really important to reflect especially when you've been in periods where you haven't prioritized any of that so and I think if I was you know I've said this to the organization one of the things I think that we have recognised as an exec team this year is that whilst we have achieved a lot we also know people have sacrificed a lot in this organisation this year yeah they've really focused on getting this done because they believe in the power of the national lottery so and so we're super grateful

1:09:12Jeannette:as an exec you know and excited for that next phase sorry that was one word and as you know

1:09:17Samantha Sheriff:I just can't answer things in one word it's a complete impossibility for me so yeah we're out of balance bunkers I love it

1:09:27Jeannette:music is a great thing and I don't know if you have a go to song or we have a playlist on Spotify, Brave Bob Brilliant playlist which is some of the guest faves if you like the incredible people that we're fortunate enough to have on the podcast so if we're going to add a track from you what would it be Sam? is there a go to song that you love?

1:09:49Samantha Sheriff:well if the people in all when I'm watching this they will all start rolling their eyes because they know I'm probably the biggest take that fan there ever is out there but they will also be surprised to know that that is not my go-to so it wasn't my go-to band if I have a song that just puts me in the best of places that I want to blare out in the car or wherever it might be it is You Also Know by Alanis Morissette. So why? Because she was part of my like teenage years you know my 15 to sort of 17 years and I had a really really good friend Michelle who used to hang around with a lot of at the time she was a little bit older than me a couple years older she had a car so she was really cool right and we used to do this thing called four wheels where we would go out in her car and just moan about all the men in our lives that were upsetting us you know just teenage angst right and we would always have Alanis Morissette blaring out whenever this come on we would just be like get our car karaoke on and I was so this year I went to Glastonbury and Alanis Morissette was obviously there and she can still bring it so it is 100 % Alanis Morissette and it has to be you also know so pop that on your playlist and think of me that is going on the playlist and we've not had it so what a great song as well if you listen to the lyrics probably don't play this on this

1:11:08Jeannette:podcast great lyrics so we love it we love it so my final question to you sam is brave bold brilliant

1:11:15Samantha Sheriff:when you hear that what do you what does it mean to you uh firstly it just gave me um goosebumps when you said that actually um because it's been great being on this and talking about the journey and again i don't reflect on it enough but for me i think it is about go after what you want but always have a plan to do it and and don't ever expect that someone else is just going to give it to you you know but also get sponsorship so I've been really lucky to have people in my career who have mentored me sponsored me supported me who still do to this day and I think it's really important to identify those people who you can really learn from and know that you don't know it all yourself but just go after it like if you've got a goal and you just think I'm not sure just go after it you know and if you don't get there you've learned something so i think that's what

1:12:06Jeannette:it means to me oh i love it what a perfect way to end thank you sam you're so welcome it's a wrap thank you for tuning in to brave bold brilliant what an inspiring conversation with samantha sheriff you know a leader who has transformed organizational culture guided critical transitions and champion diversity and inclusion. You know, and her journey reminds us that leadership is about people, culture, and creating workplaces where everyone can thrive. So from her early roles across sectors to executive leadership at Olwyn, Samantha really demonstrates vision, resilience, and authenticity in every step.

1:12:48Jeannette:Now, if you found today's episode valuable, please share it with someone who could benefit from her insights. make sure you're subscribed to brave bold brilliant so you never miss a conversation that challenges and inspires you and remember stay brave stay bold and stay brilliant i really hope you've enjoyed this episode of brave bold brilliant remember check out our new website www.brave-bold-brilliant.com you're going to find loads of resources on there that's going to help you with your leadership journey and with the businesses that you're trying to scale up and grow so take care everyone and remember there are no limits to your growth but it is by being brave and bold that you're going to unlock your brilliance.