Sir Liam Fox: Trade, Diplomacy & the Coming Water Crisis

23:01and so we really began as as I often do with a structure of concentric circles you know like the the very close team that you need to keep then then who's who's in the next circle round and the next circle round make everyone very clear who they work for what their line of responsibility is and then make sure that people know who makes the decision so at DIT we had a a big board meeting. Once a month, it was about three hours, we'd sit in the board meeting. Ministers would take policy decisions before that. So there was no discussion about what should the policy be, but it was about, so the team, the civil servants, others would be about how do we implement that.

23:49So everybody owned the implementation. They didn't own the policy because that's what politicians are elected to do, to have the policy. but we had I think a very good and efficient working department. I think that as departments get bigger and bigger and bigger, you lose some of that. And I think that there was a bit of a move away from having the board as the centre and going back to a sort of old style of command and control. I think that's a mistake because you can see the time that you spend preparing for a big board meeting, chairing a board meeting and so on. you can see that as very time consuming.

24:28I actually think it's actually very time saving, because if you do it properly, and people are bought into the decision making, then you get much more out of them. And if they have a share in the ownership of the ideas, they feel much more of a commitment to putting those ideas into action. And I think that's, again, a general principle, which I tried. Others can determine how successfully, but in terms of anything that I've ever run and make people feel that they are part of the team. And the other thing is giving people responsibility. I would say, you know, to junior ministers, this is your job.

25:06My job is the overall running of a department. This is your policy. If you have a problem, come and tell me.

25:12Jeannette Linfoot:Yes. And, you know, if you make mistakes, we all make mistakes. That's fine if you're trying to carry out the policy. Of course, if you're trying to do something that's contrary to policy, that not necessarily renowned for being particularly patient in those circumstances, but you can get the best out of people if you allow them to make the best of themselves. And what's the point of having intuitive, intelligent, experienced people if you don't allow them to use their intuition, their experience and their intelligence? Yeah, 100%. Well, I mean, to be a great leader, it's around recruiting people that are smarter than you in the areas that you need it and actually being able to empower, delegate, have clear accountability.

25:59Jeannette Linfoot:And, you know, there's nothing worse, is it, than be micromanaged by anyone. And I always think a great leader has to be like a helicopter. And you'll like this because of your background in the military. But you do, you have to be able to be up here, hovering above, looking out at the horizon, surveying what's happening, maybe making some of the big decisions or some of the big investments if you're in business. And then you need to know when to land. And that could be an opportunity that's come up that requires a bit of extra energy and input, or it might be there's a problem, something's happened and the team need a little bit more support on the ground.

26:32Jeannette Linfoot:But then importantly, you need to know when to take off again. And I always say as a leader, you're always having to make this sort of balance between the two. But if you're on the ground too much day to day, then of course that's not a great thing to be. Ronald Reagan used to have a little plaque on his desk and it said on it, it's amazing what you can achieve if you don't mind who gets the credit. And I always thought that was a spectacular piece of advice that should be on every politician's desk, because if you make it about the outcome and neither about the process nor the person, then you're kind of in the right place.

27:08I think that applies equally in business. And the other thing about what you were saying is to be able to do that, you've got to be pretty ruthless about what you're not good at.

27:17Jeannette Linfoot:Yes. I mean, I know the things I'm not good at, and I know the people I have to bring in because there are certain things just won't get done unless I bring them in. I'm useless at rote tasks. I won't do things that I find boring. I will always choose to do the thing that's the more sort of innovative and interesting thing, and I will leave the duller bits just sitting. So personally, I'd happily cook dinner for five people, but I don't want to put the bin bag out. And I just don't do those adult tasks. I don't do them well. In fact, they will be neglected if it's left to me. So I always had to bring in people who would be really good at managing those sort of things and managing diaries and managing timetables.

28:08Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, because some people absolutely love the detail. You know, they're operational people. They love the implementation. They love the detail and being down in the nitty gritty. And that's great, thank God. And different people need to do it. The very last, when I'm ever interviewing someone for a job, the last question I ask them is, usually as they stand up to go out, I'll say, oh, by the way, when you get up in the morning, what motivates you more? The need to succeed or the fear of failure? And it's an interesting question, first of all, to see how quickly people can answer it. In other words, how well they know themselves.

28:43But secondly, there's no right answer. So if I was looking for somebody running my private office, I need to find someone who's got a fear of failure, someone who's never going to drop the ball because they are. If I was looking for a comms director, I'd look for somebody who's going to need to succeed because they'll have that more creative, more risk taking element to it. So, funnily, I was talking to a very senior civil servant the other day who was reminding me that I did ask them that question in the interview and was telling me that they now always ask everyone else the same question. But it is quite an interesting concept.

29:18And, you know, people will people is quite people who know themselves well will be able to answer that question for you.

29:26Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah. Some people are a mixture. um but uh but again as an employer knowing the skills that you want from someone um that's quite a good tool that's that's my free tip for you for today i love it i love it so on the balance of your career then need to succeed or fear of failure not wanting to fail where would you sit what's is it is it 50 50 are you more on the yeah yeah um i i don't have enough or i've never really had enough fear of failure, which is, you know, it tends to push you in one direction in terms of risk taking. So I guess we all try to, if you haven't got it yourself, you try to build in that, you know, you build in the caution and the sort of safety valves that you need.

30:15And again, it's not dissimilar to medicine, where you are operating in a discipline where everything will be scrutinized. And if you're making a decision about a patient's health, you better have made it on the basis of rational decision making and data and evidence, because ultimately, you know, you could be in front of the GMC being told just how bad you are. So, you know, that's what being a professional is all about. It's all about bringing that discipline with you.

30:45Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah. And I love it. I love that there's a quote from Arnold Schwarzenegger. I love a bit of Arnie. and he says you can't always win but don't be afraid to fail and and i think the attitude to to sort of failure and and there's a bit of a cultural element here i think as well liam you know is that failure is seen as in very negative terms you know or failed at something of course none of us want to fail but but that's where the learning is a lot of the time actually so if you go to uh if you go to the states and i know you spend a lot of time in the states You know, if someone's business has just gone down the pan or something, they'll probably, you know, they'll walk into the bar and they'll probably pat them on the back and go, oh, well done.

31:23Jeannette Linfoot:What did you learn? On to the next one, you know, so you brush yourself off. Whereas I think sometimes the British culture is much more in the negative space than in the kind of growth mindset space when it comes to failure. But I often say that the biggest mistake you can make is to think you're not going to make any mistakes, right? That's the biggest mistake because you will. And quite frankly, if you're not failing enough, you're probably in your comfort zone. Exactly right. I mean, and again, I remember being a junior doctor being told, don't be afraid to make decisions. OK. Sometimes you'll make the wrong decisions.

31:58But if you don't make any decisions, nothing will happen. And that's worse. You know, you end up in that inertia, which is bad, bad for everyone, not least the patient. But you're right, Jeanette. That's one of the biggest cultural differences between us and the States. And when you want to look at why the American economy grows faster than any than the British or any European economy, it's because they have a totally different view. And people will say there, how many companies have you set up? And if you say one, they would look at you and they say, well, I've set up seven. But then my eighth company was a huge success.

32:33And they regard they regard failure as a learning process, not something to be ashamed of. It is a cultural problem I think we have here. that we need to overcome. And it's tied up with a lot of stuff that we don't really want to go into about availability of capital and risk-taking and the ease of which you can take an innovative and creative idea and turn it into a business. And even more, to scale up a business. A real problem in Britain is we have a hugely innovative culture and we're quite good at startups, but we are really quite poor at scale-ups. And that's why we lose so much of our intellectual property and our good businesses, especially to the United States, because they're more welcoming in terms of, yeah, that's a great idea, let's see if we can run with it, rather than finding the reasons to not give you a loan.

33:29Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, absolutely. And it is because you were talking about when you set up the Department for International Trade, it was a start-up, right? It was a start-up. And I remember us having a conversation previously, not the one we're having right now, where we were talking about that sort of business mindset that you bought to setting up that, you know, that whole kind of department that you had. And yet you'd never been in business. So and but you had your medical background. So, you know, this is a big role. This is international trade. This is about growth. This is about cross border collaboration.

34:04Jeannette Linfoot:This is about money. this is about business, right, that you're talking about as well here. So where did you hone your business brain, given that, you know, your background wasn't, it was in medical and there are similarities and then you'd have all those years in politics, but yet you're in a very business-minded approach to what you did then and what you're doing now, I think, as well. That's quite unique. But when I was the shadow defence secretary for five years before I became the defence secretary, we had a very good view of what we thought the economic picture looked like and what the structural flaws were.

34:40So we brought in a number of changes to how things were run. For example, my question was, the top 10 defence procurement projects are 90 % of the budget. How do we know they're on time and on budget? The answer was, well, we don't really know. I said, well, that's unacceptable. And we brought in something called the Major Projects Board. And it meant that we were able to interrogate the businesses if they were going off target or off budget. And it was amazing how quickly those projects all came back in to within those parameters. Sadly, it didn't survive changes of secretaries of state or government.

35:22But the we it's just about a discipline. and putting the outcome at top. We're not there to process money. We're there to produce the defence of the country. I used to irritate some of my civil servants by saying, what's the difference between a doctor and a civil servant? And I would say, for a doctor, a good outcome is the patient got better. For a civil servant, a good outcome is we treated the patient for a very long time. But it's the difference between outcome and process. And we learned a lot from that experience, reforming bits of the MOD, which of course has a gigantic budget. Not as gigantic as it should be, but let's not go there.

36:06But and then so when it came to DIT, I had learned a lot of lessons, good and bad, from that experience and was able to apply them. And it was more about it's more about the model, you know, than anything else is getting. and it's, you know, people will criticise me that they may be right, maybe wrong, but they'll say, don't spend so much time on getting on the organisation. My view is actually, if you spend a lot of time at the beginning getting the organisation right and trying to assess the teething problems early, it's much cheaper and quicker than finding those problems later on and trying to sort them then.

36:47And so it is worth, and of course, you know, the process that we've been in together in the last year constantly going over the same ground over and over again, refining and refining it to try and get it into the best possible shape. That can be a bit, it can be a bit dispiriting sometimes. And it can be really quite boring sometimes. But that doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do. And sometimes it's helpful to have people like you or others, you know, of our team who say, we've been through this before. It is hard work. It is, you know, a bit mind numbing at times, but it needs to be done.

37:27And it's worth making the investment. And that's again about team. It comes back to, I mean, I think team is really important, whether that's, you know, your marriage or whether it's your friends or whether it's your working environment. having not just the emotional support or even the intellectual and technical support, but just having people on the days that we all have where you think, oh, I just can't be bothered doing this again today. You say, well, we all have those days. Let's just do it, you know. That matters a lot.

38:01Jeannette Linfoot:Totally. I mean, at the end of the day, whatever game you're in, you know, it's about people, isn't it? You know, and it makes me laugh when people say in business, oh, don't take it personally. It's not personal. and you go, it is. That's the point. You know, we're human beings. We're making a difference in the world. We're helping our clients out. You know, of course it's about people. It's personal. Of course it is. You know. Try the Today programme on a bad day. Well, let's talk about life in the public. Because, you know, you are. You're not everyone's cup of tea, Liam, right? You will be loved by some people and you'll be criticised by some people.

38:37Jeannette Linfoot:And you've said yourself, you know, let other people judge, you know, not everyone is going to agree with everything you say, etc. And you have had, you know, your fair share of having to deal with some negative feedback. And in particular, it plays out publicly. How do you manage that yourself? And, you know, because we are human beings, we do have emotions. How do you get through when, you know, maybe someone is saying something in the press or you're in front of the camera and, you know, it's difficult. How do you cope with that? I think it depends on whether you think it's true or not. okay talk about that so people people when people say things that are just ridiculous um and that of course that's been magnified by social media yes um the people say outrageous things which if they said them you would sue them for for slander or lying um uh and that was quite that was that was quite a a new adjustment because up till then you you you really did work on there There were things that people didn't say or wouldn't say.

39:36Social media changed all that.

39:38Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah. And people would say them. And that was quite hard to ignore some of it. Some of you can't ignore. You know, like, I hope your family all die of cancer. And, you know, that's, you know, or any threats of violence. You can't accept. No. You absolutely can't accept that. Most of it, I'm afraid, you just have to turn a blind eye to. When it's different. So after I resigned as the defence secretary, and I took the view that this particular individual had been putting out a lot of untrue stories, I did sue him for libel in the high court. Now, I'm not a betting man, as I don't really approve of gambling, other than the odd flutter in the national lottery.

40:21But I took the view that I needed to do this, and that is quite a scary thing to do. because, and my wife, who was wonderful throughout all, and she used to say, you've got more faith in the legal system than I do. And I said, yes, but I know what I said. And I, you know, I know what I did and therefore I'm going to follow it through. And a libel case is a bit nerve wracking. And I won it and won substantial damages as a consequence, but it's quite an extreme thing to have to do. And so you're sort of titrating it. Well, on one hand, you've got, I'm just ignoring it. On the other hand, will I go to law and everything in between?

41:05And again, it's like we were discussing earlier. You get through that by having a proper hinterland and recognising that it isn't the be all and end all. And also that not everyone is looking at you in the world. So when you do make a mistake, you may think that, you know, this is everyone's noticing this, but most people are getting on with their lives And most people are not paying huge attention to what, you know, one secretary of state is doing in one bit of government. And so you have you have a sort of magnified view of when things are going right. Why does everyone not think this is wonderful?

41:42And also when things are going wrong, oh, my goodness, everyone must think this is terrible. So the reality is, you know, way on the other side.

41:50Jeannette Linfoot:And again, having people to say, you know, get a grip is, I think, what keeps you sane. Yeah, get a grip or actually you just need a cuddle. You know, let's just go home. Let's have a cup of tea. Or a nice bottle of scotch. A nice bottle of scotch. So, Liam, obviously family man, wonderful wife. I think we should give a shout out. Jasmine, my wife, yes. Jasmine, exactly. Exactly. And you've been together a long time, right? How long have you been together? What, last year was our 21st wedding anniversary? Wow. Is that 21? 20? 21 last year, yeah. What would Jasmine say is, and I'll ask her, hopefully she might be there till later tonight.

42:35She'll be there this evening, so I'll have you monitored.

42:39Jeannette Linfoot:What would Jasmine say is the secret to a happy marriage of 21 years, given the big jobs that both of you have, because I know Jasmine's very successful as well in what she does. What's been the secret ingredient, do you think, to longevity in your relationship? I think that respect, that you are a couple, but you're still different people. And you're able to have your own lives as well as the combined life, if you like, that you have. And again, we're both from very close families. So there's a lot of family interaction. And we've got a small circle of very close friends. So I'm hugely fortunate in that we have all those ideal support structures that are there.

43:37And Jasmie, she's the medical director of the Roy Castle Foundation, the country's biggest lung cancer charity. and she's a lung cancer doctor by background. And we both do a lot of traveling. Neither of us travels with the other because we're both quite honest that, you know, when you're on these trips, it's not a jolly. You're having to work quite hard and you really don't need to be looking around, looking after someone else at the same time. So we've had this very frank conversation that this is the best way to proceed. And it's worked for us. it might not work for everybody, but that works extremely well.

44:18And obviously I'm very interested in her work. She's very interested in my work. So that is also, it stops the dinner table becoming too dull.

44:27Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, I think you're spot on actually, you know, to be able to be really, really great as a team together, you know, and as a unit, but also to be your own individual people as well and your interests and things like that. because I think so often either, you know, we lose ourselves sometimes in relationships. That can happen where you're almost like your kind of identity is sucked out of you. And this codependency is so extreme that actually you kind of can't function on you. I know you've lost sight of who you were in the beginning. And I think that combination you've just spoke about is absolutely spot on.

45:01Jeannette Linfoot:And I feel very lucky for me in my life, you know, that Chris, my husband, we're totally chalk and cheese. I mean, sometimes I say, how the hell are we together in the first place? And how have we lasted 21 years as well? You know, not married. We've only been married one year. But nonetheless, I think respecting each other's differences and celebrating that, but say, no, actually, we are a team. We've got each other's backs. And I'm going to call out your nonsense when you get home if you get a bit too big for your boots as well. And also the fact that you are still, you're not frozen in an aspect.

45:34You're still allowed to develop as a person. Yes. I mean, this idea that, you know, you become a couple, you get married, whatever. And that's it.

45:44Jeannette Linfoot:Yes. That's not it. No. Every one of us, subject to all the influences around us, will change. Maybe not our personality, which I don't think does change, but we will be moulded by the events around us. Hopefully for the better. and I think probably we become a bit more tolerant as we get a bit older of other people's opinions and so on. But you still do continue to change. I think when you stop changing, that's it really. Exactly. I think, my God, every day is a school day. And I love that curiosity, that desire to learn different cultures. And we'll talk about this in a minute. You know, and for me, it's about growth.

46:29Jeannette Linfoot:I think we're like plants, we're either dying or growing, you know, and I certainly don't want to be dying, not yet anyway. You don't want to go overwatered. Don't want to be overwatered. But that is a great segue, actually, into water. So water, the life force. The book, Liam, I want you to talk to us a little bit about the coming storm and what the book is all about, why you wrote it, why it's so important for everything that people need to learn and understand? Well, it came from, I'd actually, truth be told, came from a small chapter in my previous book. And John Major said to me, that was the best chapter in that book.

47:13He said, I have ruthlessly plagiarised it. It'd be really good if you wrote a whole book on the subject. So when, of course, when I did write that book, I made him come to the book launch. I said, this is your idea. But I did want to write a book about water because, you know, endlessly we're told about carbon, carbon, carbon. Yes. And yet the single most important substance on our planet, you know, each of us is about 60 percent water as a human being. The one thing that we can't survive without. And I wanted to write from a number of different perspectives. Number one, I wanted to talk a little bit about the science of it and the natural history elements.

47:59I'm very interested in paleontology, amongst other things, but we can talk about that just in a second. And I also wanted to write it from the point of view of security and the geopolitics of it and where conflict might arise because of a competition for water. I also wanted to write it from my medical point of view about waterborne diseases. And we've got about 3.5 million people die every year from waterborne diseases in our world in the 21st century. And 2.2 million of them are children. And, you know, those numbers to those watching or listening don't really mean anything till you say that's the same.

48:35That's like having three 9-11s every day or six Titanic sinkings every day. If those things were happening, we would soon do something about it. And yet we have got the ability to do that. And I set out in the book some of the equivalences. We could afford to pay, to give everyone clean water and sanitation for about a tenth of the world's bar bill a year, about what the world spends on alcohol. A tenth of that would get everyone access to clean water. I would commend WaterAid, the charity, as I think one of the most outstanding charities in the world, the most effective, cost effective and brilliant.

49:18And then I also wanted to write about the thorny subject of climate change

49:23Jeannette Linfoot:and how that might affect all of the above and how they all would fit together. And I wanted to write it more as a story than a textbook. And I wanted to write it in a way that people could join the dots and see, oh, yeah, you know, that's how that's how that works. And to get at the pitch right of it can be quite hard. So I used to send every chapter in advance to my mother and she would read the she would read the proof. And then she would say, that's too technical or I really that bit was really interesting. You should do more of that bit. And and I hope that in the end it came out as as as that.

50:02And, you know, when we we tend to not join the dots because we don't tend to talk about security and climate and health. in the same conversation.

50:14Jeannette Linfoot:No. And we do need to do that because we're missing some of the points on security. For example, in the book, I was pointing out that about 40 % of all the people on earth today get their drinking water or agricultural water from a river that arises on the Tibetan plateau. Indus, Ganges, Brahmaputra, Mekong, Yellow, Yangtze. Wow. You know, 40 % of the world, all controlled by the Chinese now. The headwaters all controlled by China. Now, if you're looking for a geopolitical imbalance, you've got it there. And then, you know, I was very interested in how water had affected evolution. And we sort of lazily accept, you know, that we one day just walked out of the treetops and out into the savannah and out to the rest of the world.

51:10Well, we know that's not true. And there was an element that always bothered me, which is that humans don't have primate kidneys. Our kidneys are much closer in structure to water mammals than they are to any of the primates. So how come? Because the story doesn't quite work. And there's a lot of work done in the 60s. It was unfashionable then. But we refined that and genetics has helped us refine a lot of what we now know. But so we, those of us who've had our, I've been inquisitive enough to get our DNA done, like 23andMe or any of these projects, we'll all know there's a little bit of Neanderthal in us.

51:55But what we didn't know till the improvements in genetics were that it wasn't the same DNA we had. We weren't all carrying the same Neanderthal DNA. In fact, about 20 % of the whole Neanderthal genome is alive in the human population today. So although they didn't survive, about a fifth of their DNA did. And why does that matter? Because we now know Neanderthals were much better at diving. They used water tools than we ever thought. And it actually makes sense if you think about it. If you walk out of the jungle, you're more likely to hit an ocean than you are the Saudi peninsula. so clearly if we spent a lot of time evolving by water it would have made it easier to stand on two legs it would have explained why because of salt mechanisms we've got kidneys more like water mammals and if we lived on estuaries and ate lots of shellfish it would explain why our brains developed so quickly with large amounts of omega-3 and so we're gradually unravelling this My friend Clive Finlayson, who's the professor of paleontology in Gibraltar, has recently been exploring some new caves that are changing how we think about the Neanderthals and showing them much further back in history and much more intermingling with the human population.

53:20Because Neanderthal men could not have live children with human women, but human men could have live children with Neanderthal women. And because of mitochondrial DNA, we can follow that all the way down. So it's like it's wonderful unraveling the puzzle. And it does give you an idea of in our evolution, water has been so important. And in everything that we do today, water is important for our health, for our well-being, for our climate. And, you know, when you look, when I left government, when Boris, as they say, gave me some more reading time, I decided to really look at the climate change issue.

54:02And there can be no denying that climate change is happening. Now, you might want to argue what the reasons are behind it, but nobody who is rational and is looking at the data could possibly say that we're not living in an era of global warming. How do we adapt to that? How do we deal with the challenges, the shift in disease patterns, the potential threat of mass migration as a consequence? These things will, in the 21st century, be the determinants of how we have to respond to a whole range of challenges. And just maybe we should be thinking about it in advance.

54:37Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, so the book, The Coming Storm here, is available in all good bookstores, obviously. But I like the subtitle, Why Water Will Write the 21st Century. And I think you've just explained it beautifully there. And it's really like opening a whole kind of Pandora's box for you when you start unravelling this, it's like peeling back an onion, isn't it, really? And of course, you know, you're passionate about making a difference in the world and this is one element that's hugely important. And everything, I wanted to talk about the Abraham Accords, actually, now, Liam, because obviously you had a very, you know, a very in-depth political career with lots of twists and turns and big jobs and influential, well, you like strong women in your life as well.

55:28Jeannette Linfoot:That's an observation. Margaret Thatcher, Theresa May, Jasmine, you know, you're not afraid of being around strong women, are you at all? Or strong men. Or strong men as well. I do think it's very odd for men who don't like strong women. I find that strange, but anyway. Yeah. So, you know, you've done all these, you've done a huge amount. You've done a huge amount and you've had these different phases of your career. and I think you've been quite a master at reinvention, actually, as you talk about all the things you've done and you're a published author, twice-published author now. Abraham Accords, explain to those that don't know, in simple terms, what it is, why it exists, and the role that you play, and then we're going to talk about everything that we've got in the pipeline to come.

56:15Jeannette Linfoot:But just educate us on the Abraham Accords, Liam, if you don't mind. So the Abraham Accords was a diplomatic initiative launched by the first Trump administration, which was to try to get Arab states to normalize the relations with Israel on the basis that this would be a pathway to greater stability and prosperity and ultimately change how people saw one another in the region. I thought this was a tremendously powerful innovation, but I thought it had a big problem. I was asked by some of the governments to set up a UK support group. But I always had the same reservation, which was it was a very top-down initiative.

56:58It was very much about politicians and diplomats. And I had the view that unless there was a bottom-up approach, unless you could produce tangible benefits at street level, where young people in 10 years' time could associate their economic opportunity, their life chances with this political initiative, then the two would be disconnected and wouldn't work. And so we began what is now the Abraham Accords Prosperity Group. And it's changed. It has, I think, matured. The people we brought in have brought a tremendous experience and wisdom and insight into it all. And my view was that there were two things that had held up these initiatives in the past.

57:43One, they were too short term. They were done to fit in with the political timetables of governments in the West looking for re-election and looking for a trophy before that. And when you really are looking at 10 and 20 year timelines for this, as we might discuss, that we are embarked upon just now. But also it can't just be done with money. Money is not enough. You need to create an ecosystem. So the project that we have worked on is looking at how do you have a communications channel that talks to young people in a way that they communicate nowadays, not the traditional ways that we would have done before.

58:22How do you use social media to make that work? Secondly, how do we create the political environment in which it can flourish? So we have our international think tank network with think tanks in Morocco and Bahrain, UAE, Israel, UK. We've got a group in Brussels. We've got a group in Washington to, again, help them all because they're not all used to dealing with politics in the sort of environment that we've taken for granted. So how do we help them make those adjustments? And the third thing is, of course, is our investment fund, soon to be announced and launched. And that is there to provide money for startups and also for scale-ups because, as we have discovered in a lot of parts of the Middle East, the money, if we think we've got a problem here with capital, availability for startups and scale-ups is much worse there.

59:17Jeannette Linfoot:Yes. And we are also looking at how do we find easy ways of getting young people into business? So our franchising project is is to say to companies in Britain and Europe and America, you don't have a franchise in this part of the world. Why don't you allow us to de-risk it for you and get young people into business that way? And then, of course, the fourth part is your part, which is how do we provide a mentoring scheme, but more than a mentoring scheme, an educational and lifetime support mechanism? Because in a lot of parts of the world that we're talking about in Middle East, North Africa, there isn't the same culture of entrepreneurship as we would take for granted.

1:00:03And there's not the same peer support that we would take for granted. and that's got to be built. I think it's especially true for women at getting them into a business environment. So the reason that it was so auspicious that we met that day was that through your organisation, you are already with Rise Academy doing all the things that we need to do and it's really a perfect fit for what we wanted to do. And I think if you bring all of those together and I'm the first to admit that's a more complex model than you might want in a perfect world. But if you don't have all those constituent parts, I don't think it's going to cut it.

1:00:47And of course, we'll see. I've committed to cheering this for what I call the first 10 years. Someone else can take over after that. My wife thinks I'm insane doing this, but I do think that if you're going to ask people to contribute to a project like this and you're asking people to join it, you've got to show the commitment yourself. And as you well know, we built a team now that is mega committed to making this work. And because, as I always say, none of us can choose where we come from, but we can all choose where we're going to. In other words, we can shape the future. You know, we can use the experience we've got to help bring some of the assistance that is going to be required.

1:01:38And it's not totally altruistic. I don't want to see wars where some future defence secretary has got to send young men and women into the firing line and see dead bodies coming home. If we can make it a safer, more stable, more secure region, that is good for all of us. also for the UK. There will be new business opportunities in all of that. And so it does become a win-win. It just requires a lot of effort. I mean, people, when I was in Washington just last week, people kept saying, why are you doing this? And I was kind of taken aback because I'd never really thought of an answer to the question, but it sort of was because someone's got to do it.

1:02:29And if everyone says not me, then nothing will happen. And of course, it's not just me, because we built a really, really good international team now. And people have been incredibly willing to come forward and say, I could help with this, you know, or I know someone else who, you know, who'd make this your path easier. And if in, you know, 20 years time, we look back and say, well, we actually made a difference to the lives of young people. And they live in a world where they don't see one another as representatives of flags, or culture or religion, but to see one another as partners, culturally and in terms of prosperity, then that's great.

1:03:14And, you know, I've been long enough in public life to have seen windows of opportunity open and then close again and we prevaricated and nothing happened. And as I say, when I'm being pompous, which, as you know, it's not it's not that uncommon. When I say, you know, the land of if only is a pretty barren place to find yourself in. And you don't want to go there. If you if you've got a chance to make a difference, take it.

1:03:44Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, absolutely. And I love that, actually and because you know it's like if not you if not us then who and if not now then then when actually you know and and they say don't they the best the best time to plant a tree was 10 years ago the second best time is today you know and and I think that there's a lot of validity in that but what I love about what we're doing um is that it's an opportunity to make a difference first and foremost make the world a better place but let's do it in a way that is sustainable that has longevity, that, you know, there's an economic engine to it. Because profit is not a dirty word.

1:04:22Jeannette Linfoot:Money is not a dirty word. But it's profit for good and taking people out of poverty, creating opportunities, and, you know, just really, it's creating that entire ecosystem that's genuinely a win-win. Will it be easy? No. Will we get things wrong? Absolutely. You know, but will we feel proud of what the potential and what we've got the opportunity to create to help people and really create that generational shift? I think I think the opportunity is huge. And certainly, you know, from our perspective, we're so proud to be to be involved. And, you know, we had the conversation around, you know, as you said, money is not enough.

1:05:01actually you need to be equipping young people businesses with not only the capital to start

1:05:09Jeannette Linfoot:scale and grow but also the tools the knowledge the experience the templates so that their chances of success are much higher and and also and you know again one thing which i think is almost like side benefit really is we will be creating a community of rising stars of future leaders of big businesses that start today and we're going to create that community of leaders of people that can really make a difference and then of course there's the opportunity to then you know rise as you climb you know then it's the next generation coming through isn't it so the whole ecosystem and the foundations that we're putting down now, I agree.

1:05:51Jeannette Linfoot:I think it's phenomenal. And to play a part of it is such a unique opportunity. So yeah, we're really grateful for the chance to work together. And it's getting people. Well, I know. And thank you. And I'm so grateful for the input that you've made and the chance that the experience that you have of constantly upskilling people, not thinking it's a one off challenge, but it is a constant process of growing and changing. But I think that, you know, so often we think of the negative, we think of all the problems. And as I often say, just imagine, I mean, what if, what if you could invest in peace?

1:06:29What if you could change the life of young people in the region? What if you transformed the security and the stability of the region? So it was a region of prosperity that people wanted to work in, invest in, live in? And what if it became an engine of transformation? Would you invest in that? The answer for everyone is, yes, I would. And hopefully that we will give them the opportunity.

1:07:00Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, no, it's an exciting phase, isn't it? And for me, I think just that growth, you know, So not only are we growing and learning as individuals and as leaders, we're also, you know, paying it forward. And I think that's that's an absolute joy. So it's not going to be easy, but it's going to be a hell of a ride, Liam. It's already been a hell of a ride so far. So, and, you know, we've done this against the backdrop of, you know, the terrible events in Israel and Gaza. Yes. And all the political upheaval that came with that. someone said to me recently you started this project at exactly the wrong time and I said well things can only get better then if that's true then we are and it depends how you view life people will say to me are you a glass half empty man or a glass half full man I'm Scottish the glass is just not big enough so it has been a difficult time but in the Middle East if you're looking for a perfect time to launch a project and you were to wait.

1:08:01Well, good luck, because in a couple of hundred years, you'll still be waiting. You've got to move at some point. And I think actually the Abraham Accords has provided a breathing space and an opening and an opportunity that needs to be grasped.

1:08:14Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, yeah, for sure. A hundred percent. So it's a very exciting road that we're on, a journey we're on together. And, you know, when you think about the connections that you have, you know, because sometimes I think You find yourself at a place in life and you go, I'm exactly where I'm meant to be at this point of time. And as we're chatting around, you know, where life started for you and how you, all the experience you've had, you're bringing a lot of that to the Abraham Accords now, the connections, the relationships, the experience you had, you know, in terms of defence and international trade.

1:08:50Jeannette Linfoot:How important has that been, the connections, the human to human relationships and opening the doors and actually getting people on board with this, Liam? Well, the Middle East, like other parts of the world, is one of those places where they don't like people being too transactional. In other words, if you only ever go to see them because you want something, that doesn't go down well. but just making sure that when you go places you drop in to see people or you have lunch or whatever and I think it's just, apart from anything else, good manners really to not treat people as purely transactional business relationships and so I've got a lot of friends, I've made a lot of friends over a lot of years, probably made a lot of enemies as well but in the region and I think people do appreciate giving them the time and respect.

1:09:48And that, I think, is important in life in general. And I think that if you are nice to people and if you treat them well, it's much more likely that they will treat you well back. And when it comes to having to ask favours, and boy, have we had to ask favours in all of this, that becomes easier. And so I think it's a general rule in life, you know, be nice to people. be nice on your way up because you'll one day be on your way down and you'll want people to be nice to you too so it never goes amiss yeah no absolutely and i agree i think that those

1:10:26Jeannette Linfoot:relationships you know over decades and decades that we all build it's it's almost the biggest one of the biggest lessons i think in business and in life in whatever profession you're in you know nurture those relationships because they're they're hugely rewarding on a on a human to human basis. And of course, it's not transactional then. It's actually really deep rooted in shared values. And then that can do a lot of good. And it's not just about do me a favour because I want something. It's now we've got this real rich history together. And I think that's something that is so important for people to really build on.

1:11:02It's a terribly cynical view of the world to believe that we're all driven purely by what's in it for us. And the great thing that I've got in this project more than anything else I've ever done is how genuinely philanthropic people can be and how they will, when presented with an opportunity, take it. Because they've also been thinking, you know, if the opportunity comes, should I grasp it? And when you present them with one in the right way, they'll say, yeah, I'd love to help. And it's been amazing how generous people have been with their time, money, experience in all of this. And, you know, it's quite in a world that's increasingly, I think, cynical.

1:11:46And, you know, in the environment we live in, where everyone wants to see the negative side of things, there are a lot of good things to celebrate. And there are a lot of good people who who want to help. And if you ask them and very often they're just waiting to be asked, they'll say yes.

1:12:01Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, absolutely. So obviously you've given a lot of advice, Liam, already throughout this conversation, which is great. So anyone watching or listening, I know you'll have got lots of value out of this. But when you look back, is there any standout advice that's really helped you in your profession and career?

1:12:24Yes. I'm not sure I'm going to tell them all, though. I think probably the best bit of advice I was ever given was when I was a junior doctor. It was a surgeon who said to me, I'd said something about this is a stupid question. And he said, there's no such thing as a stupid question, doctor. He said, it's much better that you look stupid than the patient looks dead. In other words, remember, you're not the most important thing in that. And ask for advice. It's no crime. It's no shame to ask someone else for advice.

1:12:59Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, it's a real strength, actually, not a weakness to do that. Yeah, no, great, great advice. Nice. And if anyone wants to get involved in the Abraham Accords, Liam, or they might want to connect with you, you know, just to be interested in all that, because you're not, you know, you're doing lots of interesting things. How can they best connect and kind of engage, would you say? Probably the best way is through you. I will, we can provide all the details because, yeah, you know, all these different projects, but Abraham Accords, we will be launching our new website soon. Look out for that. And we'll be launching the fund itself sometime in the autumn.

1:13:33Once all the legalities are done and all the people are in the appropriate places. The sort of job I don't like doing. And we will be there on social media.

1:13:47Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah. Yeah. For people to see. And hopefully, as we launched in Washington last week, as we launch in the UK, and then we gradually roll out our program. And we're not going for a big bang. We're going for a gradual increase in activity once we are sure that we are stable and that we can manage it for the long term. We'll do it that way. Yeah, we'll do it in the right way. Absolutely, absolutely. So Liam, if you could describe this year in one word, what would it be and why? This year being 2026. I have to remember, I've not been very good on years ever since the pandemic. I've had my years, like a lot of people, I've got my years a bit muddled.

1:14:27I'd like most years I would describe this year as rollercoaster because you know we've been we've had so many good things happen we've had some setbacks in terms of timings not being the most patient person when that happens but it has been but I think that we're on an upswing and I see that's where it's going

1:14:51Jeannette Linfoot:yeah absolutely rollercoaster I'd agree I wholeheartedly agree with your word. And Liam, we have a fabulous playlist on Spotify of all our wonderful guests, and we're at over 600 episodes now. So we've got... It's a big playlist. It's a big playlist. What song are we going to add to the playlist from you, Liam? Oh, that's probably the hardest question you've asked me. Because I buy huge amounts of music, even still. and my favourite all-time record would be Life on Mars, David Bowie. Classic, yes, yes, yes. I love that. Narrowly ahead of Sarah by Fleetwood Mac, which would have been my second.

1:15:33Jeannette Linfoot:Oh, well, we might let you sneak in a second. We'll see, we'll see, but I love both of those as well, so that's fantastic. Final question, what does Brave Bold Brilliant mean to you, Liam? It means optimism. it sends a big signal about positivity and it says to me um can do and that matters as i said in a world of cynicism and so many people saying you can't it says you can and it says bring find the best in you um and we can maximize that for you uh to mutual benefit and i think that's a Greek concept. Well, thank you so much. You have most definitely been brave, bold, brilliant. And I've really enjoyed the conversation.

1:16:18Jeannette Linfoot:Thank you, Liam. Yeah, likewise. Thanks, Julian. Excellent. So Liam, thank you so much for what has been an absolutely fascinating conversation today. I have learned so much about how we can all make a big difference in the world, from your journey in medicine, to politics, to what we're doing with the Abraham Accords prosperity group the standout for me is that through relationships through actually focusing on the art of the possible we can all make a real difference in the world i'm super excited about the journey ahead and if you've enjoyed this episode which i have found super fascinating as well you know please do hit subscribe share it with your friends join the community because we are building a community here of incredible leaders at Brave Bold Brilliant and we can all learn from each other and certainly I've learned a lot from Sir Liam Fox today so remember it is by being brave and bold that you will unlock your brilliance.