The Mushroom Movement - From Burnout to Breakthrough, Andrew Salter's Secret Ingredient!

0:01Jeannette:Welcome back to Brave Bold Brilliant. I'm Jeannette Linford, entrepreneur, advisor, investor and your host. Now, over the past 25 years, I have built careers across multiple industries. In fact, it's probably, well, it's more like 30 years across multiple industries, leading global businesses and, of course, scaling companies and investing in ventures that change lives. And it's through my businesses at Brave Bold Brilliant and at Ginette Limfet Associates that I now help ambitious leaders and entrepreneurs unlock growth, embrace those bold strategies and create the success they truly deserve.

0:43Jeannette:So this podcast is where I bring you those lessons. And it really is through conversations with extraordinary people who have faced challenges, reinvented themselves and achieved incredible things. So today I am joined by Andrew Salter, who is the co-founder and CMO of Dirty, which is the fastest growing functional mushroom brand in the world. Featured in Forbes 30 Under 30, Andrew has built a wellness company which is stocked in Soho House, Selfridges, Harvey Nicks, you name it, while cultivating one of the most followed wellness communities on social media. And his mission is to spread the functional power of mushrooms, helping people, you know, find their energy, focus and calm in their daily lives.

1:34Jeannette:And it's really from scaling consumer brands to pioneering wellness trends that Andrew's journey offers inspiration for entrepreneurs and leaders alike. So let's get into the episode. You are going to love this.

1:52Jeannette:so welcome andrew salter from dirty it is amazing to have you here and you are fresh back from new york suffering with a little bit of jet lag but actually raring to go because you've got so many exciting things going on in the business it is great to have you on andrew

2:06Andrew Salter:how are you i'm doing really good i i was suffering from jet lag but i'm feeling energized with mushrooms now so uh i should be fully focused on this uh interview well that is

2:19Jeannette:amazing because see look you've opened the door straight away because that's what the business is all about isn't it mushrooms and wellness so how did you get into mushrooms and of course i just want to mention up front that you have been recognized as forbes 30 under 30 for this amazing business that you're building with your brother but take us back to the initial spark of mushrooms and how you got into all of that sort of wellness side of things yeah for sure so I mean I've always

2:48Andrew Salter:been extremely passionate about building brands consumer brands around culture but that actually create impact I've always done everything with my brother he's my closest friend he's my partner in crime and we've always looked out for each other the first thing we ever did we created a movement called Feeling Nuts was about getting guys to check their balls for testicular cancer just generating awareness through social media a billion people got behind it 157 countries and it was a massive success and that experience taught us a lot of things it taught us about the power of understanding your body and your health can enable you to truly take control of it was one of the biggest things and I think the second thing was we had this unique ability to take something that was a niche subject and somewhat fringe and make it mainstream make it cool make it attractive make it something everyone wants to be a part of and it really taught us about how you know you don't launch a product you create a movement and that's something people want to get behind.

3:59Andrew Salter:The reason why mushrooms became our thing and the reason that people call us the Mushroom Brothers is because we worked super hard. We were very much part of hustle culture traveling around the world and to keep ourselves going we would charge ourselves up with energy drinks, caffeine, anything to keep us awake particularly as we weren't getting much sleep and after a number of years in our mid-20s we completely broke down what is probably referred to now as this sort of physical and emotional exhaustion or also burnout and my brother's always looked out for me I think he recognized it happening in himself but maybe I was a little bit worse and he took charge of it and he's the one who introduced us to functional mushrooms and the stories and the fact that they've been around for 800 million years blew me away but I'm very skeptical right and mushrooms have always been full of stigma you know you think of mushrooms you think you're going to get high and that's actually the first thing I thought when my brother told me about it but actually after two weeks of consuming functional mushrooms they transformed my health, reset my nervous system, cleared my brain fog and gave me this incredible energy and made me realize how important it is to respect things like sleep.

5:26Andrew Salter:So it was a personal experience that was transformative. And it was a number of years later when the world started waking up to what is now referred to as a wellness lifestyle. we decided we wanted to do another brand, our own one, and change the face of health through the power of mushrooms.

5:50Jeannette:If you're enjoying this conversation with Andrew Salter, now is the perfect time to subscribe to Brave Bold Brilliant. And honestly, it's by joining our community that you'll gain access to strategies, insights and stories that will help you scale your business, unlock new opportunities and live life on your terms. So hit subscribe today and don't miss those conversations that could change your future both personally and professionally.

6:25Jeannette:Wow what a story and and when you were when you isn't it ironic that you both were going through burnout at the same time and I know you said you're really close and you know you're good friends as well as being brothers but was that because you were you were both working in in the business obviously before this business and you were literally on the road together building your careers together and you were literally sort of you know hand in glove or was it just that you were doing different things at different times but you just happened to both be sort of burning out through different reasons was it you know was it that you were like sound like twins almost you know a similar shared experience that's quite

7:01Andrew Salter:ironic isn't it yeah i don't think the idea of burnout is particularly rare or unique um i think we're all susceptible to it um i think no matter what you do in life we all work really hard um and we've never really been taught you know growing up in schools i say even our parents generation right you would only give awareness to your health when there was actually an issue and typically that was like a chronic symptom and then you'd go to like your GP or your doctor and they would prescribe you with medication but sometimes it's always too late it's left too late and I think you know my brother and I work just as hard as each other and at that point we were you know it was after feeling nuts we completed that and we had taken on so many different clients for a venture studio where we're building brands for other people and we were probably taking on too much ambitious passionate giving it everything um and like i said earlier on i just didn't respect sleep and anything that would fear us we would take uh which was caffeine um energy drinks and whilst we thought these were fueling us they were just breaking us down so we were literally a symptom of not sleeping enough probably working way too hard not having the right diet not having the right nutrition and that came from a lack of knowledge so although we've always preached living a healthy lifestyle we were doing the exact opposite um and you know my brother and i have done everything together all our successes because of how close we are like you say everyone thinks we're twins actually but he's actually older than me um but what we realized is we weren't going to chase quick fixes uh we were going to find something that was a lot more substantial or something that comes from nature that doesn't give you side effects, but actually resolves what are, you know, modern day issues and problems and health are caused by modern day problems.

8:59Andrew Salter:But actually, ironically, the solutions are actually ancient. They're thousands of years, sometimes millions of years old. The world just isn't aware of it because the education wasn't there. So we were living the exact same lifestyle. And I think if anyone did the same, they would also go through a burnout I think a lot of our success is because people relate to our personal story and the reasons we started dirty um but yeah yeah no it is fascinating and then and I think

9:28Jeannette:you're you know you're right there was almost a taboo around mental health you know burnout depression etc those kind of areas and I think especially in guys as well it's sometimes it's even more profound and if you look at the extreme circumstances that can often end very tragically right for a lot of young men in in terms of you know higher rates of suicide and that side of side of things so it's a really serious topic and as you say to bring a natural solution to to um to to the problem but also leaning into that as you say ancient remedies of the power of mushrooms and at the same time almost disrupting the sector a little bit you know you've got quite a lot happening here so when it comes down to the the sort of i guess you guys being almost like role models really for other men in particular that may be suffering with you know mental health challenges or burnout or just struggling with their place in society what's some of the advice that you would give to them apart from obviously you know take your product because it's going to help them but you know what are some of the broader things you would say from a guy's perspective having dealt with some of those challenges yourself would you say yeah it's such an

10:40Andrew Salter:interesting discussion to have and i think what's really interesting when we started the feeling nuts movement which was for young men who can get testicular cancer but it's fully curable if you catch it early and that was the point is like being be in touch with your health understand it catch it early and you don't have to have a needless death or complicate or issues that are complicated and when we started developing feeling nuts we looked to breast cancer awareness which was huge in the 80s and I always think like men have always been like 10 steps behind women like we think we're invincible you know it's always seen as weak or vulnerable to discuss health but that's definitely changing I mean you can see the uptake of dirty as an example you know our audience is 80 % women and I tend to think that women pick up on these health issues or have a keen interest and being healthier um I think it's absolutely changing now um you know with men when we speak about health it was always to do with you know getting more protein for your workouts in the gym or having a pre-workout or probably hair loss um and now I think what's great is we've seen it dirty is like a lot of women are buying the product and bringing it into the household and introducing their boyfriends and husbands and their kids to it which is amazing you know mothers make up a lot a big part of our audience which is great I think in terms of like the advice that I give is you know understand health and wellness it's a lot more an interesting space now and there's a lot more people talking about it I mean I saw The Rock for example on Mark Hyman's podcast talking about the importance of being in check with your health and there's lots of different ways to do that now you know you can even go to you know different retailers and get blood tests and understand vitamins you're deficient in and there's it's so much more accessible and fun to actually be healthy right there's incredible clubs you can join uh you know there's a massive trend now around morning routines you know uh we as a generation we used to talk about what we're going to do on a friday or a saturday night how drunk are we going to get how much fun we're going to have now people are like do you know i think i'm going to go out tonight i think i'm going to wake up early um you know it's really funny we um just did an incredible partnership with a brand called canoops which is a chain of hot chocolate shops um in the uk there's about 30 now and they're growing super fast um and we've created their first ever functional product which is a dirty mushroom chocolate drink so it's a hot chocolate or cold chocolate it has lion's mane in that so you get this incredible taste from the cacao and the chocolate but you get the benefit of lines main dirty lines main so you can also be super focused um to launch that we actually did this morning rave so we invited our community at 11am on a sunday morning to come to knoops outside we had our dirty dopamine delivery truck outside we rolled up the hatches and a dj emerged and people were raving drinking hot chocolate with functional mushrooms in, which was amazing.

13:53Andrew Salter:And people loved it. Um, you know, they weren't hung over from the night before. Um, it was a great place to start the day, to dance, to connect with people and have a really healthy, positive experience. So I think in terms of, you know, being in inspiring or, or, or leading by example is like, there are incredible experiences you can do around being healthy. Uh, you know, waking up in the morning, seizing the day, having a routine, finding products that actually can you know give you better energy that you're not crashing from too much caffeine or you're taking supplements or consuming food that's helping with mental health and mental resilience and making you feel less stressed and that's everything you know we focus on a dirty and my brother and I live that lifestyle and we help to inspire others to do the same hopefully that answers your question

14:48Jeannette:yeah it does absolutely I love that a chocolate dirty rave at 11am on a Sunday morning I mean how cool is that but I think a lot of this is around education and perception isn't it like you say the perception of mushrooms would have been that you're going to have a trippy experience and you might have some mushroom tea on the beach in Jamaica or something and see what happens some crazy experience That sounds quite fun. It does, it does. I couldn't possibly comment. But yeah, just talk a little bit about some of the misconceptions and what you actually offer through Dirty because it is quite an impressive range you've got.

15:29Jeannette:And obviously you're massive on Instagram. I'm going to talk about social media as well and the power of kind of how you can reach people in a fun way and relevant way. But yeah, what are some of the things that people should know about what you offer you know and the products that and how it helps them apart from what you've already sort of just touched on but a bit more detail on on the product offering would be really

15:49Andrew Salter:helpful Andrew yeah so I think you know when we started this journey talking to people about functional mushrooms people thought we were crazy mushrooms can help you think clearly they can clear your brain fog they can strengthen your immune system they're amazing for your skin people literally didn't understand or conceptualize it and that's because you talk correctly about stigma and the stigma around mushrooms right when you talk about mushrooms they're very polarizing you know they're associated with potentially getting high and psychedelics they're associated with polarizing taste some people love the taste of mushrooms some people hate the taste of mushrooms.

16:32Andrew Salter:They're also, they grow in the garden and they could be quite poisonous. But when you start to explain the kingdom of fungi, you know, there's said to be over 4 million species of fungi and scientists have only discovered 150 ,000 of them. So there's so much more to learn. And for Every plant, there are eight species of fungi. So that's how abundant the kingdom is. But the mushrooms we focus on are functional mushrooms. They're called function because they help the mind and the body function better. And they contain active compounds when absorbed, can do incredible things. They can improve your focus.

17:16Andrew Salter:They can even regrow and regenerate brain cells and neurons. They can strengthen your immune system. They can help you sleep better, improving your non-REM and your deep sleep. They can increase your lung capacity. They can get more oxygen through the body. They can give you all day long natural energy. They can even balance out your hormones. You know, we have a lot of female community members at Dirty that consume our products for menopausal symptoms, for example, as well. They're great for female health. They're also great for sex drive. They can increase testosterone in both men and women.

17:55Andrew Salter:So they're great for soothing stress and anxiety. So they are incredible species of planet Earth. And they've existed, you know, the fungi kingdom has been around for 800 million years. And functional mushrooms have been consumed for thousands of years. They are, they have incredible research. and they have incredible ancient like ritual history as well our goal as a brand was to take these ancient ingredients and just make them like frictionless easy to consume a part of your daily life so when you talk about our range of products our products are designed in a few ways so one is in terms of efficacy so basically efficacy is all built around uh bioavailability and the uh the the amount of active compounds that are in these extracts so the mushroom extracts we then will blend these compounds and extracts with uh sort of products whether that's matcha coffee or gummies so things people love to consume on a daily basis because our view at dirty is you shouldn't compromise your health, but you shouldn't compromise your experience because if you want to be healthy, it should be something you enjoy and you want to have every day.

19:15Andrew Salter:So we really focus on taste and the product experience as well, as well as the quality and efficacy, because you want something that actually works and you want something that actually tastes nice as well. Um, and then we've created a brand that's like both fun and engaging, but it's substantiated by science. So fun and engaging, because we want to get your attention. we're very design driven so we want to look beautiful in your kitchen in terms of the aesthetics but we want you to believe in it and we want it to work so we focus on science and efficacy so we have a chief science officer for example who's Dr Tara Schwartz who's from MIT and has become somewhat of a female Andrew Huberman she was just on Diary of the CEO and various other podcasts so we're kind of doing a lot to kind of validate the space bring the science make sure the product works but also build a brand that people want to be a part of

20:10Jeannette:yeah it's amazing and and that that's thanks for sharing that because i think there are these misconceptions as you say and and in terms of um dirty and and you know you've had some massive accolades right you you yourself were recognized in the forbes 30 under 30 which we touched on earlier but you also have the fastest growing brand on Shopify and you're stocked in iconic retail outlets you know like Selfridges and etc so the power of the brand and actually capturing the imagination how important has that been when it's come to actually fast tracking the growth of

20:51Andrew Salter:the business do you think yeah that's a great question um i've sort of always believe uh you can't get mainstream uptake um and connection with the consumer unless you build a brand around culture um culture to me is internet social media culture but it's also music it's sport um you know people you know don't want to be lectured to um you know they want to be excited they want to identify with a brand they want a brand that shares their values um they want an amazing experience you know we're a premium brand in terms of like our pricing which we've had to do really because we only source the highest quality ingredients but if someone's going to pay a premium they want the quality but they also want an elevated experience as well so i think that like what we've done really well is we've educated the market so 80 of people who buy dirty said it's their first experience of functional mushrooms so we're taking functional mushrooms to a whole new audience you know when we started functional mushrooms were definitely prevalent amongst like biohackers and people who are like hyper into their health but the mainstream consumer had never heard of it so we had to be really creative and we had to create an amazing brand experience and we had to build and create content that actually educated the consumer about what the product was but we also needed to create an experience that people wanted to buy into that they wanted in their home, they wanted in their kitchen, and they wanted to talk about, and they wanted to show up to the event, and they wanted to wear the t-shirt, so somewhat became as a lifestyle brand.

22:40Andrew Salter:And I think the way we've approached that is like, we've been like really creative, and we've built a brand around culture. So you mentioned Selfridges, for example, and I remember Simon and I spoke at an event called Voices, which is the business of fashion, it's the hallmark fashion event in the history. There was people like Vivian Westwood speaking, Jay Shetty, the president of Balenciaga, and they chose us to speak about mushrooms. In that audience was the head of Selfridges. And he came up to me at the after party and he said, I want to work with you. And I said, look, we've just started.

23:11Andrew Salter:We're building our brand direct to consumer for now. We're not really looking to just be on shelves. If we were going to do anything with Selfridges, which arguably is the best sort of like retail platform in the world, it has to be like unique and interesting. And he said, like, what would you want to do? and I said I want to do the world's first mushroom bar and he literally shook my hand at the after party whilst we were drinking by the way dirty martinis um so we had at the bar because Soa House was one of our original partners and that's where the art party was and they put lion's mane into the vodka to distill it so you could drink a dirty martini and be a little bit tipsy but also on it as well um but he shook my hand we agreed the deal so I think probably 12 months after starting the brand, we were in Selfridges, but at the front with a mushroom dirty bar between Leueve and Gucci.

24:02Andrew Salter:And a half a million people came to that bar and it was there for a month. We were also in the windows in Duke Street and Oxford Street. It was an incredible moment. I think any brand owner builder wants to get their product into Selfridges, but to do it in such an incredible way as that. I think what was really interesting is when people came up to that bar i say 99 of people said like is it going to make me high and like i don't understand mushrooms in coffee mushrooms in matcha they just didn't understand it at all um it was such a success selfridges actually invited us back three months later to redo that bar as part of a sex and sleep exhibition they had um and i remember going back there and speaking to selfridges ambassadors and I said like how's it going and they said everyone's coming in and asking for Dirty and what was quite amazing between that April and July period the brand had gone viral on TikTok and Instagram and suddenly everyone knew what Dirty was and what functional mushrooms was because we made the brand viral so it's quite interesting the difference three months can make if you get it right and you create a viral brand.

25:12Jeannette:Yeah and I think what's really fascinating as well you've basically got a really edgy, innovative, disruptive brand in Dirty, married with arguably one of the most traditional, iconic, historic legacy retail brands. And yet that marriage has worked really well, hasn't it? You know, between the conventional, arguably with Selfridges, and the innovative, disruptive of Dirty. It's like, it's really worked fantastically well, the yin and the yang.

25:41Andrew Salter:Yeah, 100%. And I think why it worked really well is because when we were developing this brand, Simon and I wanted it to exist at the intersection of wellness, design and fashion. That was kind of our vision for the brand. Like we wanted to look out of place in Whole Foods, but fit right in next to Louis Vuitton. Because that was the way in which we could build an aspirational brand. I think when we were doing that, most brands you would see in, you know, Panic Organic or Whole Foods or the pharmacy were very sterile, very plain brands, not much personality. So we were probably one of the first to kind of look at the wellness industry and say, like, let's create something that's cool, that's aspirational as well as something that works.

26:28Andrew Salter:And I think that's why, you know, we really stood out like a diamond in the dust when we were building this brand. And I think a lot of that is the reason, you know, people love our brand and our packaging. You know, people love our name. It's provocative. And I think that was definitely a key to success right at the beginning.

26:48Jeannette:Amazing. No, I love it. I actually interviewed, I don't know if you know who you may do, in a similar sort of space as you, Maxine Laysby, who's the founder of Absolute Collingen. Okay, yeah. She started her business from her kitchen when she was in her early 50s and you know and just just kind of had this crazy story where she stopped wearing makeup she went bare she did this go bare project i think her husband had kind of moved on her kids had grown up she was looking for you know her next thing and started boiling this broth you know this beef broth and everyone said god your skin's amazing maxine what are you taking and it was you know and then that then evolved into the products of absolute collagen which is one of the highest concentration of collagen.

27:32Jeannette:But really fascinating, again, this whole brand and the story behind it. And again, her personal experience is really she brings that DNA into absolute collagen. So you should definitely check Maxine out. She's really cool. But with your personal brand, yeah. Honestly, I will introduce you, Andrew, because I know you really enjoy the connection. And you're in a similar space, obviously. So I will definitely make that introduction. But just in terms of the personal story that people kind of buy into as well, because I always think through my 30 plus years in business, that quite simply people do business with those that they know, like and trust.

28:13Jeannette:So there's an element around authenticity. And like you say, you share quite openly around your own personal experience of burnout. But when you started feeling nuts, what was the catalyst for that? because obviously it's a very specific cause, mission, if you like, around men's health and testicular cancer. Was there a catalyst for that that sort of has a personal story behind it or something in the family maybe that made you focus in on feeling nuts before you got into Dirty?

28:44Andrew Salter:So, yeah, great question. So my brother and I are always inspired by our mum. She actually quite early on got us involved in lots of charity projects she created and she was amazing at creating like stunts um that drove lots of uh fundraising uh for like bbc children need red nose day um and like from a young age you know i think i was actually interviewed uh on um red nose day on bbc when i was about eight years old because the work i was doing with my mom so we've always really been into creating things of impact but doing it in really cool creative stunt ways. So I was in school and a lady came and she spoke, her name's Wendy, she spoke about her son Matthew at the age of 18, got a lump in his testicle.

29:41Andrew Salter:And being a young boy and a guy, he didn't say anything. He kept it to himself and it was a period of time after that it swolled up to I think a few times, it may be like triple his size. at which point he went to his mum went to the doctors and it was tested for cancer unfortunately leaving it too long it was probably eight weeks too long um it spread guys are very hormonal at that age spreads through the hormones and unfortunately it took his life at the age of 19 um although a devastating story and I was shocked by it um the the thing that inspired me is that his mum was going around telling this story in schools because if you know how to check your balls for lumps and bumps which young guys should do once a month you can get and catch it early if you know what you're looking for and prevent yourself from dying it's 100 % curable if you catch it early and I was like that's amazing firstly I was like I didn't know you get cancer that young when I was that age in school and secondly I've always been told if you get cancer it's like a death sentence and that's because it was always archaic organizations that were owning the communication lines um around cancer because they wanted to raise money for research best way to raise money is to use fear marketing um but that point that it could be caught early uh it was 100 curable i went home to my brother and i just said we've got to do something about this um so that was the moment it inspired us um and we went on this unbelievable journey where we were always inspired by things like live aid i always thought bob geldoff was a remarkable man of how he was able to create this like broadcast moment get some of the biggest stars in the world to come on stage in london um and i think it was in the jfk stadium in the us in atlanta and it was always like breaking records getting you know all these people tuning in and using entertainment and culture to change the world and save lives and we were inspired by that and we said let's go and do that for the digital age which is eventually what became feeling nuts um and i think we've always had this burning desire of using culture to create change um and that's been that thread throughout our lives so everything we've worked in has always

32:00Jeannette:been kind of connected to that yeah amazing and so so you obviously you know raised by a strong mum um who's who sounds like she's she's a pretty fearsome like kind of character in her own right um and and obviously doing a doing a lot of good who else has inspired you in your life then andrew have you had other sort of mentors coaches people that have you know really helped you push out of your comfort zone you know believing yourself and go and take these bold moves you You know, we're starting a bit. It's not easy starting a business and growing a business. It's tough. So any other sort of inspiring people in your life that have made a big impact for you?

32:38Andrew Salter:So many, you know, I I was bold and ambitious and I had my brother by my side and I decided not to go to university. Took a year out to start business, went well, and I just kept going. I've I've always been very curious and I've had a thirst for knowledge. and I've always tried to get a lot of wisdom around me. So, you know, like right now, Dr. Tara Schwartz has been an incredible mentor to my brother and I. As our chief science officer, she teaches us every day about mental resilience and helps us to sort of think about the future in terms of formulating our products and bring science into functional mushrooms.

33:20Andrew Salter:growing up you know I actually went out and sought my heroes and I Simon and I have been incredible connectors finding like people that can transform the projects we worked on quite early on I was mentored by a guy called Simon Fuller who created American Idol he's famous for making the Beckhams famous Wendy who inspired us to create Feeling Nuts her husband who unfortunately passed um just over a year ago was a general major in the army um and he left the army and traveled the world ended up in bali um he's one of the he's probably the most extraordinary man i ever came across and he he mentored my brother and i from the age of like 18 uh and he was with earth frost right in the beginning um yeah i've i've i've had many many mentors i'm inspired by many people a lot of people in the entertainment industry um I read a lot of books a lot of autobiographies um yeah and I've I've probably got about 20 different men and women um who are incredibly successful that I call up each week if I'm stuck on a problem or I need to connect to someone else um so yeah mentors are like super important to me um I'd say my first ever mentor was my brother um there's a six and a half year age gap uh between us um and he took me under his wing uh when i was super young um and was a great older brother and and showed me the world and uh that's what kind of created our bond and the journey that we're on now um so yeah lots of mentors yeah no it's great isn't it i mean that's it and you need different people

35:02Jeannette:at different times and you know for different sort of you know stages of your career and professional life and um i think that's that's a smart thing to do right to ask for help to ask for different pieces of advice etc and sometimes people don't do that because they feel like you know maybe they shouldn't know all the answers and of course none of us know all the answers so um it's the smartest thing you can do to surround yourself with the right people and uh and have you ever had to um sort of i suppose distance yourself from the naysayers from people that maybe haven't always you know maybe believed in you or you know backed your dream you know because we all sometimes get people who you know maybe it's from a position of love actually but they don't always encourage us or they might put doubt in our head oh god really do you think you should start a business now and oh what do what do you think you're doing you know so i think we do have those those other people who aren't necessarily being spiteful or unkind but are just not really bring in the right energy that we need to to our life and our relationships have you ever had sort of any of those experiences in the journey you've been on I mean yeah for sure I think a lot