The Myth of Hitting Rock Bottom - with Amber Hollingsworth

21:45Jeannette:you actually get excited about it and that's what keeps you you may have a bad moment that gets you to be open to change but what keeps you motivated to stay changed is the idea that actually the grass is greener over here actually my life is so much better I have so much more fun you know it's so much more simple that's what makes people sort of stay sober it's interesting isn't it

22:14Amber Hollingsworth:Because I guess what you're talking about there is almost when coming from a position of loss, i.e. scarcity, what you're going to lose, you know, the buzz, the high, you know, the lifestyle, the friends, the environment you're in and focusing on what you're losing as opposed to what you can gain. And once you flip and say, oh, actually, this is a whole world of possibilities over here, waking up without a hangover or waking up fresh or being able to learn a new skill, meet new people, get that job, the promotion you've always wanted. I think you start stacking.

22:48Jeannette:You're motivated and energetic. And right. And I know a lot of your listeners are business people. So you guys will relate to this when I say, you know, if you think about trying to help someone with an addiction, like you think about selling something to someone. here's the way we normally go about it, which if you think about it from a sales perspective, you're just going to shake your head and say, oh my God, that's the worst thing possible, right? You're saying, you're broken, you're messed up, and you're going to have to give this thing up that feels like the only thing that makes you happy.

23:18Jeannette:And you got to give up everybody else you know that does it. And you got to give up having fun. And you're going to have to go to these meetings every single day for the rest of your life. That does not sound like anything anybody wants. like what are we doing when we and it's crazy because people actually show up to get help and when they show up people start putting doors in front of them well are you willing to do this well will you do that well will you go to a meeting every day well will you work the steps will you get a sponsor i'm like this is not helping people want to do this like why are we going about it so one of the things i teach family members is um the concept of the irresistible offer like like you would have in sales and marketing like okay how can we make this uh appeal to someone differently than the way we're trying to do it because this ain't working

24:06Amber Hollingsworth:yeah yeah I it's such a great way of looking at it and I love the I love the spin you put on that you know actually from a marketing point of view you'd never buy that would you never buy into that

24:16Jeannette:what that life and then we're mad at people like why won't you get help why won't you stop this well that doesn't sound good to anybody yeah do you think there's been a shift then Amber in in

24:26Amber Hollingsworth:the sort of the the way that addiction is treated the way that it's now positioned from maybe more traditional ways maybe when you were starting out in the field you know has there been a shift in sort of how professionals like yourself actually you know address you know addiction to help people has there been a big shift would you say?

24:45Jeannette:I think there has been somewhat of a shift like there are some specific counseling techniques that a lot of people are trained in now called motivational interviewing and it helps. It's a style of talking to someone to pull out what motivates them. So I do think that that's a step in the right direction. But as far as what the families are told and the resources the families are given, it really just isn't that different than always. You know, they're basically told there's nothing that they can do when actually I just spend a lot of time training them to do what I've done that's worked for me for 20 years.

25:20Jeannette:I'm like, Like if your person was sitting in front of me, here's what I would say. And since you can't get them to sit in front of me, you're on the front lines. You know, it's kind of like, let's say if you're a surgeon and like you have somebody out on the battlefield that needs to perform surgery, they don't know how to perform surgery. They can either let this person die or they can get on the phone with you and you can tell them what to do. You know, like you see on like a crazy action movie. Not that you want to do it that way, but sometimes that's the only choice you have. Like you're the front line person.

25:48Jeannette:So I walk families through how to do that, how to go about talking to their person.

25:55Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah. And it's a bit like, you know, coming back to your business analogy, it's almost like a train the trainer kind of approach.

26:01Jeannette:Yes. Yes. And not only is it so effective to get someone open to change and willing to get help, but it puts them in the right frame of mind so that when they do get help, they're ready. Like they hit the door running. And they're like, I'm here because I have a problem and I want you to help me solve it, as opposed to coming through the door because they're forced, leveraged, coerced, tricked, all of those things. You know, they hit the ground running and it sticks so much better. So it's like the treatment takes a lot quicker, it's faster, and it sticks if you can get the person to come in in the right frame of mind.

26:43Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah, because you must get a lot of scenarios where people are in denial and they're saying, I'm fine. I'm fine. I don't know what the problem is. When people say that, but you know the situation because the family member or the loved one has explained how things are playing out. What's that person really saying when they say I'm fine, do you think?

27:02Jeannette:they're saying I don't want to be forced into doing something I don't want to do right and and instead of going against that because I spent most of my career dealing with people who didn't want to talk to me didn't think they had a problem sort of got tricked or forced into seeing me so I have all these skills at getting around those defenses like like a new person comes in and I'll say what brings you in here what can I help you with and they'll say I'm just here because my wife made me. She said she was going to leave me if I didn't get help or whatever. And so they're expecting when they say that for someone to sort of come down on them.

27:40Jeannette:But I don't. I say, well, that's amazing. Tell me about your wife and what makes her so great that you're willing to make this sacrifice and do this. And I put them in the hero role instead of in the role of, well, you need to wake up and say you have a problem. And you're doing this and you're destroying your family. That's just not going to work. So I lean into that with them, and that gets them to be open to see. You know, people say, well, a lot of people get told, you can't do this for someone else. And I tell people, of course you can do this for someone else. Like, there are things I would do for my family that I surely wouldn't do for me.

28:17Jeannette:And so I think it's really good to have some outside people and reasons why you're doing this, because on those hard days when you don't care and you don't want it, if it's just for you, you're going to drop the ball. So instead of telling them you're wrong for having these reasons or trying to convince them that there's something that they don't believe, I sort of meet them where they are is the language they use in the field.

28:41Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah, no, I think it's a really is flipping, flipping it all on its head, isn't it? And actually just completely approaching it with a very fresh perspective. And I guess also, and I'm no expert, I'm just really fascinated as you're talking, Amber, you know, I suppose if someone is feeling forced into doing something, they've lost control. And the one thing they can control is their addiction, not in terms of not doing it, but in terms of participating in what gives them a kick or something that, you know, they can control. Am I going to drink the vodka? Am I going to, you know, take the drugs or whatever?

29:15Amber Hollingsworth:Whereas actually by trying to take the control away from them by forcing someone to do something, it's like a child they're going to rebel against, I guess, really, is what you're saying. Yeah, we're all like that.

29:25Jeannette:We all want autonomy. It's a human need. You know, if you're two years old, you don't want to be told what to do. So we're all like that on some level. Some of us are more verbally like rebellious, but all of us are internally like that. And so the people will hold on to something they don't even want because you're trying to take it away from them.

29:45Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah. So, yeah. So, yeah. The brain's complicated, right? It's, yeah, I think we probably only use 25 percent of our capability of our brains, actually. um so so i love the fact the fresh approach you bring and amber how many families have you helped then because when did you start all of this you said 20 years i think you've been you've been

30:05Jeannette:helping people a little a little more than 20 years and i could i have no idea how many families thousands and thousands at this point um and it's it's it's wonderful you know it's like getting to watch miracles happen every day because when people get better from this they don't just get a little bit better they become better people than they ever would have been otherwise like in order to walk your way out of this you have to build muscles other people don't have to build like self-reflection humility honesty with yourself about your motives and what's really going on and interpersonal skills you come out better than you ever would have been and it's not just affecting the one person it's affecting everyone around them and then everyone around them and so it truly is wonderful to get to watch people you know get all of these wonderful things

30:57Amber Hollingsworth:back in their life and obviously you've helped a lot of people and you also you know your business as well as obviously leading with you know the care and the attention and your purpose you're very purpose driven profession that you have um in terms of what you've created in terms of reach with in particular we've put the shovel down your youtube channel you know the creation of content to inspire help guide because you're only one person there's only so many hours in the day right talk about how you how you've approached the reach being able to reach and help more people through creation of content as a core part of your business as a business owner well from a business perspective here's what I like to tell people getting people off of heroin is pretty

31:44Jeannette:straightforward to be honest not that hard understanding the algorithm the youtube algorithm them in content marketing that is rocket science it's literally been the hardest thing i've had to do you know talking to people like that for me feels easy i just do that every day whatever but this whole other it's like five million skills you got to put together that's just the honesty the behind the scenes of it because it's not just do i know what i'm talking about as far as addiction but can i say it in a way it's gonna can i make a thumbnail that someone's gonna click on can i make the first 30 seconds in such a way that they're gonna keep listening i mean they're I mean, it's like, it's a lot of skills.

32:22Jeannette:And so anyone that does any of that stuff, I have mad respect for.

32:27Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah, yeah. Because how big is the channel now, Amber? It's getting close to 800 ,000. Wow. In terms of people that subscribe and follow. Right. That's right.

32:39Jeannette:And it took me a long time to get there. It took me a long time, more than a year to get to 100 people. So it's been a journey for sure.

32:49Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah, that's incredible. Congratulations, because like you say, it's not easy. And I guess when this is it in business, isn't it? When things are tough and you get rewarded in public for what we do in private. it. So all of the hours, all of the creation, all of the editing, all of the digging out to get people to subscribe for years and years and years. And then all of a sudden people go, wow, you've got an amazing YouTube channel. Hey, like that just happened, right?

33:20Jeannette:Right. Like it just happened out of nowhere. Exactly. It may look like that, but it's not the case.

33:27Amber Hollingsworth:No, no. So how important for you in your journey in your business life in your profession is purpose how important has that been in terms of you know helping you overcome the challenges that we have along in life and

33:41Jeannette:and in business in particular I think it's it's everything when it comes to doing the work that I do the burnout rate for people in the field that I am is five years that's the that's about the average amount of time addiction counselor practices in the field which is crazy because it takes more years than that of schooling to get here. And the reason that is, is because you feel like you're beating your head against the wall and you're trying to help people who don't want help and people are in a revolving door system. But once you shift the way you look at that and you shift how you see what your job is, then you don't feel so burnout and you can keep that passion and excitement.

34:20Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah, it keeps you true, doesn't it? When the times are tough, it really reminds you why you're doing something. And I think a lot of people, you know, I work individual with, with business leaders from a sort of business mentoring, coaching and strategy, et cetera. Very often, even very senior people, I'll say, well, what's your reason why? What's your purpose? Why are you doing what you do? What's important in your life? What's your legacy? What, you know, what do you want written on your gravestone? You know, we ask some of these questions and it's, it's incredible how many people don't know.

34:51Amber Hollingsworth:They don't know what their purpose is actually. And obviously we help them find that purpose, you know, whatever it may be, whichever field or whichever personal situation they're in. But I really would encourage anyone, if you're not clear on your why, just really do some soul searching, some digging, you know. And if you can't think of the answers to some of those big questions, I just say just write everything down. Anything you want, no matter how big, no matter how small, doesn't matter. Just just really think about what's going to give you joy. Or what do you want? And then it will start to form a picture around those different areas.

35:28Amber Hollingsworth:And you will get to that clarity at some point. But spend the time on yourself to think about these things, right?

35:36Jeannette:And that's exactly what I do to help people who have addictions, is I get them to get clarity on their why and who they are and who they want to be and how they want to be seen in their identity. And that's the thing that gets them to change. Not all of those other things that everyone else thinks it is. It's about helping connect them back to who they truly are as a person, their mission, their passion, their genius, their gifts.

35:59Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah. See, I didn't know you were going to say that, but that was a that was a very nice symmetry to it, Amber. But you're right. Yeah. And I guess, you know, you must have some very emotional situations with people that really they really want to change that. They might be struggling. They may make progress and then fall back and then start again and fall back again. And how do you deal with that sort of roller coaster where people, you know, they don't just get it and then stick with it? I assume you have lots of scenarios and maybe that's also why in your profession, the average lifetime for someone doing your role is like, you know, say five years.

36:37Amber Hollingsworth:But how do you deal with the roller coaster effect that you must see with certain families, certain individuals? goals.

36:45Jeannette:Well, I think first and foremost, to keep my own sanity, I have to realize if someone relapses, it's not a measure of how good of a coach, counselor, whatever that I am, you know, it's part of their learning process. And it's my job to be on their side. So I'm never mad at anyone. I'm never upset. You know, they come in and I feel bad for them. And then we'll figure out what happened we'll dust ourself off and we'll move forward it's all a learning process and no one gets it on the first try so it's unreasonable to expect that it's like it's like would be like saying go make a youtube video and be a you know mr beast in five minutes you know it's like that's not the way it works and so when you have reasonable expectations then your sort of frame of mind stays good and you can help their frame of mind stay good

37:39Amber Hollingsworth:yeah i know that's that's a great way of looking at it and again rather than saying oh you got it wrong you fell off the wagon or north you know that's that's really bad actually you just go okay well you know let's let's explore what's you know what's happening and get back to that purpose i guess and and what they the life they really want yeah and support and loving way instead of

37:58Jeannette:saying to someone like why do you keep doing this and you must not really mean it i'm saying dude you went from doing this every day to like once a month. That means like 29 or 30 days out of 30, you're not doing it all. So we're like 99 % succeeding here. We're just falling down every now and then. These are just little teeny gaps and we're just going to close those gaps up. That's the way I see it.

38:23Amber Hollingsworth:That's a great way of looking at it, Amber. I really love that. So just in the context, we'll come to some final questions shortly, But in the context of business, you know, you were talking around functioning addicts, if that's a thing. But it's a terminology that people do recognize. And in the world of business, you must deal with some very successful business people that are, you know, they've got big jobs. Maybe they're corporate CEOs running multi-billion dollar businesses, potentially, or successful entrepreneurs. so so how how does addiction whether it's alcohol or drug addiction play out in the business world do you see and and you know are there any watch outs for people that might be starting to recognize certain patterns in their own in their own life maybe i think and especially with entrepreneurs

39:15Jeannette:that same part of your brain that gives you the the personality and the characteristics to be an entrepreneur, which we all know isn't for everyone, that same part of you is the part that's maybe what someone would call like an addictive personality. Like in order to start a business, you got to get obsessive to get something off the ground and build something new. You got to get so preoccupied with it, so determined, so like absolute, this is what's happening. That's the same part of your brain that can make you an addict. So I see a lot of entrepreneurs, business people, because it's really just that same part of who they are just misdirected is what I say.

39:55Jeannette:I say, it's just you using your genius for the evil. We're going to use your genius for the good. Like, you know, it's like if you're Spider-Man, you have Spidey powers, you got to get in control of your Spidey powers. That's the way I see it. So, so that's part of it. And then in business, particularly, there's a lot about business that lends itself particularly to alcoholism because it's an expectation that you drink that you take your customers out and that you give them a good time that you know all the things about the IPAs and the wines and the it's like so glamorized and sophisticated and romanticized and in business a lot of times you feel like that is part of your job and I've dealt a lot with like sales people marketing people that they have to travel number one which sets you up for alcoholism because you're by yourself you're lonely where do you sit to eat your dinner at the bar at the hotel what else is there to do you don't know anyone else what is to do besides have a drink and then you have to take your clients out and so there's so much about it that lends itself to someone finding themselves in a life position where it gets a hold of them.

41:07Amber Hollingsworth:I guess it can creep up on you in those scenarios you might not even realize that it's going on I mean I spent most of my professional career in the travel industry and again very social very relationship driven lots of fun you know we're talking about travel and holidays and suppliers and doing deals with hoteliers and all this kind of stuff and it's it's a very social alcohol fueled industry i would say um yeah sure yeah you know and and actually i think a lot you're right a lot of people they just they get into that without

41:42Jeannette:even realizing it's a thing right they're just doing their job like literally and and it can get a hold of them um so i see a lot of business people a lot of lawyers they're in a similar situation. Doctors aren't in that same situation, but for some reason I see a lot of them too. So business people, lawyers, doctors, that's probably the majority of what I see these days.

42:06Amber Hollingsworth:Gosh, gosh, that's incredible. And how do people deal with, in a work environment, you know, you talked about families often come to you because they're loved ones. Do you ever get a scenario where it's the boss and it's someone on the team that maybe is worried or is raising the alarm bell that this isn't acceptable and this person needs help? Does it come via HR? Is it always the family in a business scenario that's actually saying, hey, we have a problem here? Or do you ever find that colleagues or other people in the business world get involved when you've got someone that's clearly struggling?

42:47Jeannette:Almost always it's the family, 99.9 % of the time. If it's to the point where your coworkers and your boss is recognized, we're way past functional. We're hanging on by a thread. The last people that are going to see it are going to be the work people because, you know, we're going to hold it together and bring our best selves to our work typically, right? It's going to be seen at home long before it's going to be seen by your colleagues. If you have a colleague or someone that knows you well that's saying something to you, you got to, you know, that's a strong signal. a very strong signal yes like sometimes when I deal with young people I say have you ever had a using buddy express concern about your use and they'll say yeah and I say what does that tell you they're not your mom they're not saying you shouldn't do it at all they're doing it right there with you and they're saying hey dude I think you're doing this too much that should like really hit hard.

43:45Jeannette:Yeah, yeah.

43:47Amber Hollingsworth:Gosh, there's so much in this, Amber. I think it's a fascinating area. And what do you see is more prevalent? Drug abuse, alcohol abuse, sex abuse, I don't know, relationships, addictive relationships? What's the bigger volume of an issue, do you think, that you see or you're playing out?

44:06Jeannette:I would have to say alcohol, but that could have a lot more to do with the customer that I help if you will like the target population I have obviously opioids are a big issue and then I would say it's alcohol opioids and then marijuana is huge it's honestly it's the hardest thing I treat and people are always like really I'm like really it's like it's like the vein of my existence why why why marijuana then so much

44:32Amber Hollingsworth:because it is so accessible and it's seen as, could it be legalized in certain countries?

44:39Jeannette:Right, it's legalized in some states in the United States. And so it's very easy to get a hold of. And then people accept it and they won't even put it in their mind as in it's a drug. Like it's not even, it doesn't even go in the drug category in their mind. And it impacts people so slowly that even when their life is falling apart because of it, they have no idea that it's because of the marijuana. Like, it feels like it's everything else and not the marijuana. Like, when you drink and you go do stupid things because you're drunk, it's pretty clear where the problem is. If you're using cocaine and thousands and thousands of dollars is coming out of your account every month, it's pretty clear where the problems come from.

45:22Jeannette:But with marijuana, it's very subtle. and the way I explain it to people is like when you're a little kid and you're in the ocean and you're playing and you see your family and you wave at them and go back to playing and then you look up and you don't see them anymore and you're like they left me and you feel freaked out you didn't feel it but you moved the current took you down that's what it feels like when you're having the marijuana issue you'll become sort of progressively more depressed anxious irritable and it feels to you like the only thing that helps my anxiety is the marijuana and what they don't realize that it is the marijuana that's causing the anxiety

46:03Amber Hollingsworth:so so amber i'm going to come to some final questions this has been a fascinating conversation really it has so if someone's listening to this wherever they may be in the world um you know and they they're recognizing some of this either in themselves or their loved ones what what what advice are you going to say to them to kind of really help in those initial stages? What advice would you give?

46:25Jeannette:If it's a family member, I would say empathy and reflective listening are going to get you a lot further than confrontation. If you're listening and you're identifying and you're thinking, man, I think maybe that's me, you know, maybe I'm having that problem. Then what I would say is it's not the end of the world. Like it's a fixable problem. The solution is actually pretty clear and pretty easy and not only will your life get better everything gets better all your relationships get better it's really not as devastating as people make it out to be like oh you're a terrible person and no one ever beats this and blah blah I'm like no that's not it at

47:04Amber Hollingsworth:all yeah okay that's brilliant thank you Amber that's hugely helpful so obviously you give all this incredible advice to everyone else Amber helping all these families and these thousands maybe hundreds probably hundreds of thousands of people that you help maybe millions because if you think about the reach of the channel I mean really you know we're talking about a volume of the way you reach so many people is is inspiring have you received any amazing advice yourself that's really you know helped you over the years yeah you know I said earlier like building the

47:37Jeannette:YouTube channel is the hardest thing I've ever done and I thought initially you know I had done a good amount of public speaking. I talk to people for a living. I'm like, I could do this. But talking to a camera is a whole different thing. And I wanted to do it. I had set my mind to do it. And then I just wouldn't do it. And I would procrastinate. And then I would do it. And then you have to watch yourself do it. And that is excruciating. And so I think this was in some book or something I was reading at the time. And it said, if you're struggling with that kind of thing, it's because you're thinking about yourself.

48:09Jeannette:What do I look like? What do I sound like? What's my hair look like? Blah, blah, blah. And the advice was, it's not about you. You need to be thinking about the person you're trying to help, not you. And that just shifted something in my head that helped me turn a corner. And then I was able to do it. Because I'm like, it's not about me. It's not about what clothes I'm wearing, what my hair looks like. This is about someone else. And that's what I need to be thinking about when I'm doing this.

48:36Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah, that's great advice, actually, because also, you know, for anyone, maybe you're not building a huge YouTube channel, maybe you're just showing up for a meeting, or you've got to go in front of, I don't know, do a pitch or something, or maybe you just need to have a, you know, a difficult conversation with somebody. And actually, you're right. If you, if you think from the other side of the table, then that's, again, brings you back to your purpose, doesn't it? And why you're doing it to take full circle. Oh, yeah, amazing. And Amber, you know, you've had a, you obviously, you've built an incredible business.

49:06Amber Hollingsworth:You help so many people and huge congratulations on everything that you've done. You know, if you were to look at the last, say, 12 months and you had to pick one word to describe, what would that word be and why?

49:20Jeannette:I think for me at this point, the word is probably scalability, to put it in a business word. You know, how do I help people at scale? How do I make my business more scalable? because helping people individually one at a time is just not very scalable. So I've spent the last couple of years, I think, trying to figure that out.

49:39Amber Hollingsworth:Yeah, and I think that is something that, you know, as a fellow entrepreneur, fellow business person, I totally, totally, you know, agree with you. And when you have a strong purpose is where you'd want to help more people. And, you know, how do you reach how do you reach people? So, yeah, fantastic. Well, I can't wait to see what happens, actually, Alma, because you're just going to, like, go off the stratosphere, I think, with everything that you're doing. And, yeah, it's going to be an exciting 12 months ahead, I think, for you as well. So, yeah, hugely exciting. And, Amber, we've got a playlist on Spotify of all our wonderful guests that have been on Brave Bold Brilliant.

50:16Amber Hollingsworth:What track are we going to add? Who's the artist, the song that you want us to include on our playlist?

50:24Jeannette:Gosh, you know, there's this song that me and my son like to listen to in the car and I can't think of the name of it but it's sung by a woman and a man and the reason I like it is because it's it's like a story it's this cowgirl type girl in a bar and she sees this guy she walks up to him and says you look like you love me and it's just so funny it's this little back and forth where she's saying her part and he's saying his part it's just cute and it makes you smile and makes you laugh so somebody listening knows the name of that song because it's kind of popular, but I can't think of what it is right off the top of my head.

50:57Jeannette:But it's like, you look like you love me.

51:00Amber Hollingsworth:You look like you love me. Well, listen, we will we will track that down. Absolutely. And we all need a bit of love in our life, don't we at the end of the day? Who doesn't want some of that in their life? And so you know, the podcast Brave Bold Brilliant Amber, which obviously is a delight to have you on when you hear that, what does that mean to you?

51:19Jeannette:I think it means you're using what I call your genius in exactly the way that you're supposed to be you feel an alignment when you're lining up your special skills and talents and abilities with

51:33Amber Hollingsworth:purpose love that what a brilliant and we've been talking about purpose a lot so thank you for bringing us back to that really important point Amber but listen it's been a delight chatting with you it really has so thank you congratulations on all you've achieved and yeah I can't wait to see what the next the next part of the journey holds for you and all the people that you're

51:50Jeannette:helping amber so thank you so much thank you so much thanks for having me jeanette

51:55Amber Hollingsworth:i really hope you've enjoyed this episode of brave bold brilliant remember check out our new website www.brave-bold-brilliant.com you're going to find loads of resources on there that's going to help you with your leadership journey and with the businesses that you're trying to scale up and grow so take care everyone and remember there are no limits to your growth but it is by being brave and bold that you're going to unlock your brilliance.