The Power of Purpose: How Dr. Guy Sandelowsky 10x'ed His Business

0:01We went from 1 million run rate revenue to 10 in the space of a year and Dragon's Den was a huge part of that. So for any founder or business person considering it, definitely, you know, I would say go for it because for us it was worth the risk.

0:25welcome to brave bold brilliant i'm here today with dr guy sandalowski who is the co-founder of omni dragon's den entrepreneur champion for lgbtq plus dr guy what a pleasure to have you with us hello thanks so much for having me on and it's a pleasure to be here oh well listen we are going to have such an interesting conversation because you have been on quite a journey with the business and with kind of everything else that's going on in your life and I just want to kind of jump in if I can Dr Guy because we're 12 months on now from when you went on Dragon's Den I'm sure everyone asked you about Dragon's Den so I'm going to get it out there up front but we are going to dig into you know how you've built the business how you help people you know how you actually sort of work with your co-foundership as well because I think that's really important and the entrepreneurial journey but take us back to a just over a year ago when you actually went on Dragon's Den what was the catalyst for you guys deciding to to kind of take that brave move and and get yourself on the on the show and most importantly secure some of the cash Dr Guy so yeah what was the lead-up like for it?

1:38I mean if there was one thing that's happened in the five years that we set up Omni the one thing that's had the biggest needle moving drive has been going on to Dragon's Den. And if you think about it in terms of marketing, you are basically getting free airtime on prime national television and a lot of the nation watch shows like Dragon's Den. So it's honestly an absolute privilege to be able to have that moment or five to 10 minutes, whatever the time is to tell the nation about what you're doing, what you're building in your company and to tell the dragons as well. And there's no getting away from their authentic reaction.

2:22They haven't met you. They know nothing about you before you go on air. And yeah, you pitch what you're doing and they either love it or hate it. And that's the risk you take. Unfortunately for us, it paid off. We got two dragons, Stephen Bartlett and Deborah Meaden, who love what we're doing so much so that they invested in the business um and yeah you know the rest is history we went from one million run rate revenue to 10 in the space of a year and dragon's den was a huge part of that so for any founder or business person considering it definitely you know um i would say go for it because for us it was worth the risk well i mean congratulations because like you say it's not easy to actually go on and prepare and get a pitch that's going to be compelling and actually have a business that's got substance and credibility behind it as well.

3:20And then to secure the backing of two icons like Stephen Vala and Deborah Meaden is all credit to you guys. So, yeah, huge congratulations. That's fantastic. And during that time, so you've 10x the business in 12 months, which is a phenomenal growth rate. Obviously, the show helped. and I want to talk a little bit more around how you prepared for that and what makes a successful pitch as well and kind of what worked for you but you know that that whole kind of process of really fast tracking the business growth and being on a very very steep upward curve clearly some of that was helped by being on Dragon's Den you know three million viewers I think watch Dragon's Den it's a big audience as you said and you've got a you know brand there behind you but what have been the other elements that's really helped you catapult the growth, would you say, by, you know, 10x in the business?

4:10Because a lot of entrepreneurs, founders listen to this will be thinking, my God, how do I fast track growth? Absolutely. And I think the key is whatever your business idea might be, do you actually have product market fit? In other words, are you solving a problem that enough people need solving. And for us, Dragon's Den was an amplification of something that we had proven out on a much smaller level. And for us, we were solving pet owners issues. So people that have a really itchy dog or people that have a dog that's got, you know, issues with their stools and their toileting. We came up into the market and we're like, well, we've got a solution for you.

4:54It's this food. If you give it to your dog, your dog won't be as itchy or they'll have better stools. and what Dragon's Den did was amplify our audience but we'd already established the fact that people needed that solution they were suffering from that problem and I think the biggest risk is that you go on to Dragon's Den with the most wonderful idea but not enough people care about it or it's not a big enough pain point for people that they're actually gonna part with their hard earned pounds to fix that problem so I would say that's a really important thing to validate as early as possible.

5:29I will say I was absolutely petrified pitching on the den. You do prepare for it. You do rehearse. You do sort of plan what you're going to say because there's a very strict amount of time for that opening pitch, you know, before it opens up to Q &A. And you know, when you're really nervous, Jeanette, and you sort of speak and speak and speak and you forget to breathe. That's what happened to me. I was just talking, talking, and I literally, and I was like, in the middle of my pitch and I think my voice went wobbly and it was just I was so nervous um so even now see thinking about it makes me nervous um but it worked out you know at the end of the day the dragons are very human they've all been at that point where they were starting their business where they were at the beginning of their journey and we really felt that you know as the um the filming went on we started to feel that support as well which really helped and and so so you like you say nerves kick in well that's because you care so much as well you know I mean nerves aren't always a bad thing it shows that you're really passionate about what you do and I guess you managed to bring that across in in the pitch didn't you um Dr Guy and and so what was the moment do you think that clinched the deal well we started off with a really harsh grilling from Peter Jones in particular, who just couldn't get over the valuation of our business because he felt it was really inflated, it was far too high, and that was just a complete sticking point for him.

7:05But what we noticed while he was grilling us and very sort of, I would say, confrontationally telling us why he didn't think we should have that valuation, Shiv and I noticed that Stephen Bartlett was just quietly grinning and looking at us. And Deborah Meaden was sort of giving us that sort of very subtle nod, like you've still got us listening and we don't think this is ridiculous. And that was just, I would say, a bit of a turning moment for us because when they did eventually speak, they sort of said, well, hang on, Peter, we're interested in this. We don't think this is a ridiculous valuation.

7:44In fact, tell us more, guy and shiv um and that was just like okay cool we've got the stage we haven't lost all the dragons in this pitch in fact we've got two amazing dragons the ones that we were wanting to get interested and i'd say that was probably probably one of the most pivotal moments yeah yeah so you could almost see the energy and feel that kind of tension between grilling from peter jones and sort there was a quiet little wink and a nod almost from Stephen and Deborah, which must have given you then the, you know, the encouragement that you kind of thought, right, I've got this. Breathe, breathe.

8:22There was another moment which wasn't aired, which I think is quite funny and interesting to talk about. So whatever product you bring onto the den, you're not really allowed to manipulate the experience of the dragons trialing the product or you demonstrating the product. And of course, for us, because we do pet food, we decided to bring a bowl of our dog food on set and to prove that even though the food is allergy friendly, dogs still love it. So it's not a compromise on flavor. So anyway, we brought a dog with us for the filming and the producers didn't let us prepare that bowl of dog food.

9:01We had to give them the product, give them a dog bowl. And they were the ones who set it all up. but what a lot of people don't know because they didn't show this they filled this dog food bowl up like as a mountain a heaped mountain of dry dog food and this poor little black labrador that was really hungry went on and ate about eight portions of dog food in one helping literally inhaled food and he ate it so quickly that he actually regurged and brought it all back up right after eating it so we were you know and of course we were just thinking oh my god could you imagine if they showed that on air like the food us saying how healthy it is and how and then you see this dog sort of so but they did it they didn't know it of course we know that's not because there was anything wrong with the food it's because the dog ate it too fast um but yeah just one of those moments that you're sort of like oh god really oh my god so that was for the outtakes then wasn't You know, like years later, you'll run it, run it.

10:01Oh, my God. So what was the valuation, Dr. Guy, and how much funding did you secure? So it's good to understand the numbers. Yeah. We secured 75 ,000 from Deborah and Stephen. They did a joint investment, and I believe the valuation at that time was around the 6 million mark. Right. Okay. So 10 times more. So you were turning over a million at the time, were you? uh oh now you're asking me i can't remember the exact run rate but yeah i think we had reached a million run rate monthly run rate at that point yeah yeah yeah yeah okay great so well it just goes to show doesn't it i mean i wonder what do you have an idea what the business might be valued at today 12 months on or is that something that you've not explored yet uh well i would say our valuation has increased by about threefold since being on the den yeah so actually even though we had quite a hard time and a grilling about how our valuation was really high it turns out that actually it was probably quite good value for them to invest at that point because a year later we're about three times what we were in terms of valuation but before we continue i want to speak directly to those of you who are listening and thinking, I know I'm capable of more, but I need structure.

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13:04And now let's get back to the show.

13:11Amazing, amazing. So you've 10x the top line and tripled the bottom line then fed through to the valuation. That's fantastic. And in terms of equity, Dr. Guy, obviously they don't just give you cash for nothing, right? There are some terms involved in this as well. What level of equity did you have to give away for the 75k? So I believe we gave two and a half percent that was split between the two dragons. And honestly, the amount of value they've given back to us has been transformational. So Stephen Bartlett's team and Stephen himself really, really experienced when it comes to brand building, consumer products and really challenged us.

13:53you know, yeah, your product's great, but is somebody who's never heard of Omni going to understand what you do? And are they going to be excited about it by holding up a pack of your dental sticks or, you know, a packet of your dry dog food? And the answer in some of those cases was probably not excited enough. And so he was really helpful in guiding us on just refining the branding. And then Deborah Meaden, absolute sustainability warrior, has just given us that amazing B Corp focus how can we make the business more sustainable everything through from sourcing ingredients to packaging to you know ESG you know rights of people that work for Omni making sure we're paying competitively just really doing business for good but business in an ethical way and these days getting B Corp accreditation is really really tough the criteria for getting that badge um has really sort of been raised um with all the greenwashing that's that exists in many industries so for us it's just to have a b corp ambassador like deborah meeden on board is such a signal that we are yes we're doing great um from a commercial perspective but we're also doing good as a business for the planet for pets and many other aspects too yeah you're right b corp status is really hard to get.

15:17I actually interviewed a couple of years ago now a lady called Oriel Frank, and she was one of the co-founders of Elemis. And Elemis got B Corp status, but it was when they were actually part of Locketown by that point. So massive organization. And of course, the supply chain, very lengthy, very extensive, and they were a big business at the time. So to actually retrospectively kind of unpick some of this stuff and go for B Corp, I think it took them nearly two years to get B Corp. But actually, you know, So having those strong values, that strong accreditation, like you say, it has huge appeal.

15:50Whereas if you mentioned B Corp to someone even two or three years ago, a lot of people wouldn't even know what B Corp status actually is and what it's all about. So that is fantastic. And I guess that has sort of strengthened your credibility as well around what you offer and how you work and how you do things, which probably then has that profit for good aspect to it. I think so. And I think B Corp gets a bit of stick these days. You know, lots of companies have B Corp. Is it just red tape? Does it mean anything? But I think the facts really speak for themselves. I read recently that in the last year, on average, B Corp companies have had a 20 % increase in their revenue, which is seven times higher than, I believe, seven times higher than non-B Corp, so in small and medium-sized businesses.

16:40And also that B Corp companies in the last year have seen a 10 % growth in their employment. So they're creating jobs, and they're, you know, paying more than national minimum living wages. I think I read a stat once that during COVID, over 90 % of B Corp businesses were able to sort of get through COVID versus, you know, much lower figure for non-B Corp. So there's a sort of this resilience aspect. And I think ultimately, it comes down to the fact that the modern day consumer cares about things that B stands for and so they're going to buy from brands that align with their own values and that's why I do actually think yes can be a bit of a headache trying to you know get all those boxes ticked but actually it's good for your business at the end of the day because people are going to support your business more if they're aligned with you.

17:31Yeah 100 % agree and like you say it's a lot of effort and but it also challenges I think your process even if you don't end up getting Beacor which you guys obviously have which is fantastic but even if you go through the process and just it helps you challenge doesn't it how you know the whole every aspect of your business you know so any any organization that they might not actually want b corp exactly but you know go through the process or have a look what what's involved because it's going to help you anyway just tighten things up and you know even if you don't go for the full accreditation it's really useful i think for businesses to kind of really look at their business in a different through a different lens really you know I think so.

18:10And I think if I was to give advice to another founder of a young startup, actually, it's so hard to get trust and credibility for a new brand that people may not have heard of, they may not understand what you're doing. Things like B Corp or any awards that give somebody an anchor as to, yeah, this company is trustworthy, or I recognize this accreditation actually really does move the needle we we applied for um a place in the uk startups 100 index last year and we were really fortunate to be the top pet food company in the uk last year and and that in itself you know putting that award on our ads on meta um it's amazing how how much something like that can actually help instill that confidence and trust from your customers so So, yeah, I would definitely say anyone listening to this who's considering applying for these sorts of things, we found it to be really worthwhile.

19:08And B Corp is just another example of that sort of a badge. Yeah. So, you know, what I'm really interested in is you're obviously passionate about what you do. You've created a fabulous business that's helping, you know, pets and pet owners as well, you know, as through Omni. You know, I think I read your line somewhere created by vets, adored by pets, which I think is a very neat little neat little tagline. So you're a vet by kind of profession, but you're also a founder and a business owner. How do you marry the two between the sort of the passion and the sort of way you started out professionally as a vet versus being a businessman?

19:47How do you marry the two? Yeah, I think for me, it was a very much an impact story because I am a vet. I've worked in small animal practice treating people's cats and dogs for many years and I did love doing that and it is very fulfilling and it is exciting to be able to work with animals every day on the front line but and this is personal to me I felt I could be having a bigger impact by combining what I knew in the clinical world with business and I wonder how many other vocational professions there are where you can have an impact in your sort of obvious stream, be it being a doctor or a lawyer or whatever else.

20:36But actually, business can sometimes amplify your impact quite exponentially. To put that into sort of an example, I used to see what, 20, 30 patients a day. But now we have hundreds of thousands of people eating our products. and that number is growing massively so yes I had impact in the clinic and yes it was nice and it was enjoyable to meet people and their pets but now if Omni continues on the trajectory that it's on we could help millions of pets you know a year and that could even go globally so that's the sort of stuff that really excites me I did an MBA as well because I wanted to understand the academic side of business that's just my personality I didn't want to be in a board meeting where we were getting grilled in our P &L so our profit loss yeah our numbers our accountant our accounting numbers and just not know what's going on I felt that was really important that yes I was the clinical part of the brand but I understood everything and I don't regret that decision one bit I think it really helped and it makes me feel a lot more important I'd say I suppose and in those conversations a lot more my opinion matters more and that that as a founder I think is quite relevant otherwise you literally don't understand some of the aspects of your own business and I think for me that would never have worked.

22:01Yeah I think that's really good advice actually you know I see a lot with that with SMEs where you know typically a founder will have started a business because they're passionate about something you know or they're really good at whatever it might be and that's a great way to start because you know if you love what you do and you're passionate about it, then the chances are you're going to be more successful. You're going to have a bigger impact, to your point. But it is different, actually. And often you see as businesses grow and grow, a founder often hasn't actually covered off those business basics.

22:31You know, cash flow, balance sheet, all this kind of stuff that you need to know. You might not need to have the absolute minutiae because you should have a great finance person to help you with that. But at the same time, if you don't know enough, stuff then it's very hard and you know I see founders come unstuck or their their growth stagnates because that's what can also happen because they don't understand the power of leverage or you know what you need to do to build a brand or go global and what internationalization looks like all these things so I think that's a very smart approach that you took there and as you say it was right for you and it's paying off with with everything you're achieving so yeah that's that's a really good piece of advice actually I'm glad you think so yeah I think there's just a lot of very technically able business people out there who have the best ideas that are really going to change the way people live their lives but what they don't have is the context of the business knowledge to really amplify that and raise money for instance get investment things that you sometimes do need to get that product or that idea out there and so yeah and I say I think if you can empower yourself as a technical person to sort of learn a little bit about business I do think it can be really helpful.

23:48Yeah and I also want to kind of take another sort of angle here as well because as a business owner you know it's your name above the door well you're a co-founder right so you have your business partnership as well and we'll talk about that relationship and how you guys make that work for yourselves but you know I think you've said in the past and, you know, whatever the actual stats are, you know, 99 % of startups fail and it is a really high level of failure rate for startups for sure. But for LGBTQ plus founders, I guess the question is, is the real failure point bias, not actually business?

24:26I don't know what you see as an LGBTQ plus founder. Does that make a difference? And is it harder? Is it harder or is it irrelevant that's a really good question I mean I certainly feel that we had investment deals that broke down because me and my co-founder are gay which is crazy in a way to say out loud but you know you go through months and months of due diligence the business is sound and everything and then you know the last step is oh we'll go for a lunch together just to meet and make sure we're all aligned and they'll ask you know do you have a wife do you have kids and now I'm actually gay and I've got a boyfriend and you just feel like a palpable change and shift in the whole dynamic and that that happened to us and it made us feel like oh god maybe we shouldn't lead with that or maybe we should you know pretend to be something that we're not um and whereas that was tempting to fall into that actually um what we decided is no we're just going to own it and draw investment from people who support us for who we are and now we've actually got the backing of a venture capital fund that specifically looks for um to lgbtq plus founders so they're called identity ventures they're a berlin-based fund they invested in us and it just goes to show that actually if you just sort of take that step that brave step sometimes and be authentic to who you really are that also even though it can close some doors it can open some others and so yeah that was certainly the case for us and now it's something that um yeah I'm not shy I want to empower other people who feel like they have to hide their identity I want to empower them to feel that they don't have to do that because we didn't and it's worked out okay for us yeah I mean it's it's bonkers isn't it as you're talking I'm thinking really this is 2026 for god's sake what is it it's not it shouldn't even be relevant right it shouldn't even be a thing never mind but but here we are we are talking about it because it's clearly it clearly can be a challenge for for some some business um business owners and business founders I mean listen Dr.

26:47Guy when I was starting my kind of career in corporate I was nearly always the only woman in the boardroom with a P &L so different challenge you know gender about gender bias as opposed to, you know, kind of sexual orientation. But, you know, and the world has moved forward, but still a lot to be done when it comes to diversity, equity and inclusion, 100%. But I'm so pleased that you said, no, this is who we are. We're proud of who we are. We've got a brilliant business. You want to work with us? You want to invest in us? Fantastic. Let's go. But if not, that's fine. We're not for you. And, you know, and I think that does take courage to actually be able to say, no, this is this is who I am accept me who I am absolutely and it's funny you shared your own sort of experience of gender bias because I grew up in a family where my mum was the breadwinner and she was also is also an entrepreneur and she used to show up to meetings with clients and they'd say oh when's your boss coming in or are you the secretary and she would say hang on no oh, I'm actually the boss and it's my company.

27:52And I remember her telling me those anecdotes and those stories as a child growing up. And, you know, they inspired me, you know, why should you conform? You can just be proud of, you know, being who you are. And, you know, but your own mom does that in a male, you know, that time, you just didn't have female business leaders. They were few and far between. So she could do it. So can I. Absolutely. And having a strong role model, you know, Role models are so important in our lives, aren't they? Whether it's a family member or a friend or somebody you've met through networking or business. But I think being able to have that sort of safe space to be inspired by someone else that's maybe trodden, not necessarily the same path, but a similar path to you ahead of time, definitely gives you that kind of courage to keep going, doesn't it?

28:40And to kind of say, no, actually, this is me. So what's your mum's name, Dr Guy? Ruth. My mum's called Ruth. And she's actually in her mid 70s, but she's still, you know, full time, still got her business, loving it. It's like part of her identity. Both my parents actually are entrepreneurs. And yeah, and they work in the same company as well. I don't know how many people you interview on this podcast who have a partner in the business that they work at, but they managed to make it work. So it's interesting. Well, well, they're obviously doing something right. Like, you know, not only have they obviously had a hugely successful professional life in their own rights as, you know, as business leaders, but they've also, you know, kind of given birth to you literally and figuratively from a business perspective and created, you know, an amazing business leader in yourself.

29:30So, you know, all credit to you guys, really. And I love the fact that Ruth is still in her, you know, she's in her 70s and she's absolutely smashing it out of the park because we get very negative about ageing as well, especially for women. so much pressure about how we look and oh my god you know and it's of course it's all a bloody nonsense isn't it so we've just got to be who we are and you know put ourselves out to the world in a way that is authentic I think and you're doing exactly that so yeah well done to both of you um so so Dr Guy let me um let me just ask you about how you and Shiv managed to to kind of run the business together co-founders it's not always an easy alliance and there's some cases that can work really well.

30:11In other cases, it doesn't work so well because you can have different, you know, different objectives, et cetera. But how do you guys make it work successfully for you? Well, I think the first thing to say is I never imagined that I would want a co-founder. I was so, I think looking back, so sort of, I so underestimated what being a founder means and the loneliness of it, the complexity, the challenges, the rollercoaster journey that you go on if you end up, you know, becoming a founder. And I just assumed that I wanted to be the only founder and hire, you know, a team that were sort of, yeah, more technical and not founders.

30:52And now that it's, you know, five years in, I cannot imagine being where I am today with Omni or any business for that matter without a co-founder like Shiv. because you, everyone can have the most incredible strengths, but we all have limitations and imperfections and things that we're not good at or have an experience. And the power of having somebody with you on the journey who has a complementary skillset to maybe has got some of those experiences that you don't have. And in my case, that was the finance background that Shiv has. And somebody who looks at the world through a different lens than you as well.

31:30it just allows you to get more perspective on those decisions that you have to make day to day and I can tell you when you have a startup it's just decision after decision after decision and having a soundboard and somebody to just sort of ponder those decisions with is so so helpful so yeah with me and shib it worked out really great that's not to say we don't have our challenges we're both strong personalities we definitely don't agree on everything but that tension is what keeps us true and it makes sure that we're aligning we know we're on the right decision and if we're having a disagreement then we're both sort of reflecting on why that might be and then for us it's like okay what data can we use to sort of back up one decision versus another so yeah that's sort of how how we work yeah so complementary skills different backgrounds and and i love it if it use the data to try and take the emotion out of maybe some of those challenging areas where you might not you know you might not agree on on everything and I think that that's very smart and you know if you were starting you're five years in if you were starting Omni again from scratch you know like say tomorrow no money no network you know but knowing what you know now what what's the what are the first what's the first move that you would make if you were starting today do you think um well I suppose the question reminds me of something that I wish I'd done better or learned more about before I started Omni.

32:59Hiring is so hard to get right. And I underestimated that. I thought you could just hire through your own network. You know, you know, oh, I know that person can do this. So I'll ask them to join. And actually, you think you might be cost saving by not using a top recruiter or not doing a really extensive process when you're hiring but what I've learned is that one or two wrong hires early on will cost you a lot more because you spend a lot of time working with that person training them and what I would love to be better at is that sort of getting the right candidate early on because when you do get the right people into the business one person's worth five in terms of the value they can bring and so that's the and I still don't know how to do that so if you know how please tell me the secret but I still I give everyone the benefit of the doubt so I interview people and I think they're all wonderful so I just want to hire everyone and it's not until I've worked with them for a few months where I'm like oh actually and you can't you're not actually doing what I thought you could do and I was a little bit too optimistic and that's something that I just think it's really hard to do with a few interviews and a task you know yeah it is it is difficult I mean god I don't know how many people I've recruited over the years and the businesses I've been I've also had to let a lot go as well right because that's the other side of the of the coin um but I think I think uh listen it is it's always hard because you can do as much due diligence as possible but you can still get it wrong you know so I think it's about de-risking it and I think if you're really super clear on what you're looking for you know what are your criteria and then you go through a very rigorous process and you you scientifically at the end of an interview you're kind of scoring them against a clear set of criteria it can take away some of that oh well actually just a really nice person and we had a nice we had a good a good connection you're being a bit more kind of focused on on what you really need for the job what experience and the cultural fit as well is so important because you know do you hire for do you hire for expertise or do you hire for fit and I think the reality is you know when you get to that shortlist you you know technically the last three people should all be able to do the job 100 % technically based on the experience etc and then you're really down to fit cultural fit and you know you don't have to you don't have to love everyone do you but you do have to have that respect and I think the danger often that I see and particularly with smaller businesses that people tend to hire in their own image because you know it's just we're human humans at the end of the day and sometimes actually you need someone that's the opposite to to kind of your style isn't it but I think the more you do it the better the easier it gets to be on this doctor guy but yeah people absolutely critical in the business i used to always say god business would be easy if it wasn't for people and clients and you know the customers be so easy wouldn't it

36:08but i mean here's the thing right because you're in the animal animal business right um and but you're in the people business as well so so whilst it's animals it's humans as well that that you're you're hugely important in your business what are you seeing it's seen with with sort of pets and And some of the changes in trends, you know, are pet owners killing their pets with kindness? You know, do we have obesity in pets like we see in sort of, you know, in humans, you know, diet, environment, all of these things? You know, do you see that through kind of your business, obviously focused on nutrition and what have you?

36:48But what's happening in the world of pets? one of the big changes that I think is quite striking is 10 years ago if you had a pet and there was a problem you probably would have gone straight to your vet because you know we didn't have the online resources that we have now back you know 10-15 years ago it just wasn't as expansive so your center of um advice would be your vet um which which I think's good because that's why vets do the training they do that's why they spend you know five six years at vet school and so on and what I think's really shifted now is AI the internet and people taking the health of their pets into their own hands and so they're at home and they're like oh my dog's constantly scratching their ears for example and they may be instead of picking up the phone and making an appointment they just go online and they ask the internet why is my dog doing this and they're bombarded with a million and one solutions and they're just left really perplexed and unsure what to do and I think it's quite a hard time for pet owners to really know how to look after their pet because of that change and the amount of information that's out there a lot of it not based on science or evidence so one thing we've really tried to do at Omni is support pet owners with information, products and services that are based on science and studies and evidence.