The TRUTH About AI, Leadership & The Future of Business

33:29And I think I'd start with the kind of the pace of change point, because I'm with you on that. When I first graduated, I lived in the north of Japan. And it was in the early stages of the internet. Back in 1990, there were only 10 websites in the world. And look at where we are now. When I was living in Japan, it was all snail mail and air mail. You know, I would live for those little blue envelopes arriving. So I'm completely with you on just the pace of change. But if you think between 1903, when the Wright brothers first took that 12-second flight, 1966, when the man first landed on the moon, that's only 66 years between them, 1903 to 1969.

34:22these days every single day there's a new evolution there's a new development there's a new rapid spurt of something and it's partly fueled by compute power and the capability we've been able to develop in the chips that literally enables them in the hardware is literally enabling the software to do what it does but also the innovators are working at great pace and there is effectively an arms race between big tech on trying to land primacy. And that is an uncomfortable place for a lot of everybody else who is not part of that because navigating it is really difficult. And I sort of probably divide it into sort of three different areas really.

35:14The first is there's a real FOMO that goes on, so the fear of missing out. almost I mean I work with a variety of founder-led entrepreneur-led startups and scale-ups I work with some mid-market firms and I work with some very large firms so I work with a variety and I get to see very privileged position in boardrooms in founder conversations in coaching conversations very wide variety of of responses to what's going on and I'll also hear the questions about what people are worried about. FOMO is one of the main things I hear. People are worried that everybody else gets it. Everybody else knows what they're doing.

35:54Everyone else is doing it. Everyone else is saving money and driving cost efficiencies and productivity because of it. And that somehow everybody else has just kind of got it and they're somehow left behind. And everybody seems to worry about that because there's a kind of perception that everybody else is doing it. Now, in reality, of course, in our day-to-day lives, lots of us are experimenting with it in all different types of ways. So you're confronted with your work life is going at a certain pace and then, you know, your children or your grandchildren might be having a play with something that seems to exceed what you feel you might be able to do at work.

36:42And that gives a real sense of standing on a wobbly bridge and not necessarily knowing how to hold on. This is unnavigable. This is uncharted. This is completely brand new. It's a world that we are treading into somewhat blindly. That FOMO, I think, is a big theme that I hear a lot of. um the other one is is a fear um which is jobs ai is going to displace all of our jobs what does this mean for the workforce um what does it mean for my job what does it mean for my children what does it mean for my grandchildren what does it mean for humanity um there's an awful lot of fear and there are plenty of people who are well placed to stoke up the fear and it's also uh it's hard to navigate as a as a lay person not not in the ai space or not in technology what to believe what what's the truth there's an awful lot out there and it's it can be very frightening i think for people and then there's a there's a third strand which is um unbridled excitement at the opportunity for what this might mean for humanity on the on the positive side of So, you know, breast cancer diagnosis dramatically goes up when AI is involved.

38:14Using AI to help solve real world problems on climate change. We talked about that earlier on pollution control, on highway management, on, you know, medical science in particular, education, a variety of different fields can be dramatically improved different areas can be dramatically improved um with targeted use of ai um because computers don't ever have a a bad night they don't ever have a groggy night's sleep they they don't need to um you know have a little rest at some point to have a cup of tea as she says reaching for her cup of tea and they don't uh they don't get you know they don't the things that uh we might um uh you know we might get tired sometimes or we might have a certain pace that is our maximum pace whereas computers can learn particularly the way neural networks work neural networks work they can dramatically accelerate pace and volume of certain tasks but they do have their limitations so those three buckets sort of FOMO fear and um optimism are the three themes that I hear most often and that is whether you're I mean I'm helping some companies which are literally founder-led fewer than five team members and I'm I'm working with sum which are global multi-billion pound businesses and I hear similar themes kind of wherever you are on that spectrum and and how optimistic and how fearful you are seems to me to be um kind of I can normally judge it based on how technological the company is um because the people who are more technological tend to be more on the optimistic side and the people who are less technological tend to be more on on the kind of fear side but it's also because they're not exposed to some of the good news stories and the things that that can be very positive yeah answers your question but that's what i'm hearing yeah no it does absolutely and i think

40:35Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:you're i like the way you've you've actually kind of categorized it neatly into those three buckets, if you like. And I guess, you know, some days we might feel all three of those, depending on what's going on, especially if a smaller business is listening to this, they're probably, you know, kind of dabbling a little bit over here. They've sort of got a bit of FOMO and there's a bit, kind of probably all of them, even in one day. And, you know, if you were found in a business today then, Carenza, with the knowledge that you've gotten, the kind of privileged position that you're in because of your experience, because of the legacy businesses because of the tech and the creativity and all of the good stuff that you bring to the table.

41:10Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:How would you structure a business today differently because of AI than even maybe 12 months ago? What are the key things that you think influence how a business being founded today should set themselves up given what's going on in the world of AI? Yeah, I think the most important thing is to think, what is the problem you are solving with your business and who are you solving it for? That's the most important thing, like forget technology for a bit and forget AI for a bit. What is it you're trying to solve in the world and who is it you're trying to solve it for? Work on that, get that right.

41:49Whatever your business, get that right. And then think about as you build up your business and think about how are you going to reach your potential customers with your product and services? what might be the tasks the specific tasks that can be automated that can be made more efficient because of the use of AI in the way that you reach your customers but that by the way may or may not involve how you talk to your customers because some customers depending on the product or service will prefer to talk to a real person so you need to weigh that up you need to think about that very carefully and then on the kind of the back end side like how you actually make your products and service i would go about it thinking in a very task oriented way like what are the specific tasks that it might be useful to automate um or what are the specific tasks might it be useful where you use um predictive analytics or forecasting or probabilistic modeling that can help augment what you're doing.

42:56I would say the human being is the most important thing in whatever it is you're doing. How can you give them extra superpowers and how can you free them up? Whoever's in your team, how can you help augment them with the power of technology and AI if appropriate? But don't think you have to layer it on. You know, there are certain people in your room that maybe apart from a few admin tasks, it doesn't make sense whatsoever to load them up with having to do something in AI. It might hold them back because it's another tech thing they've got to learn and they may not want to do that or feel very equipped to do that or get comfortable doing it.

43:34But also it might not be suitable for the task in hand. So I would be very, very specific about what are the tasks that you can potentially do in a more efficient way if you're helped by tech but that the human being is is the you know the humans at the heart of it they're they're coming up with the ideas and my my vision for how this could work really well is that you you harness the best possible human talent and then you help give them the human talent around them that is going to help them do what they need to do. And then you sort of, you chunk up the bits and pieces that you can potentially do that will help save them time, money or energy so that they can do their best work.

44:20Because at the end of the day, we are human beings. We have the privilege of living on this planet. We want our work to have purpose and meaning and if you're there building a business you're hoping hopefully going to be solving a problem for somebody somewhere and making life better for somebody somewhere yeah that's great

44:41Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:advice actually anyone that's listening who's about you know about to set the business up or maybe it's an early early stage business and this is hugely practical just very practical and kind of takes away the black art you know and the and the nervousness the fear around it because like you say actually there's there's stuff that needs to be done well how best can you do that what are the tools available to you and it's about what's appropriate isn't it and and actually it's not around taking humans out of the equation it's what's the right combination um and where where i mean i do a lot of work one of our big clients is a core hotels um in fact i'm doing a big executive edge program with them next week with the board um and and you know i i see a lot in hospitality because it's a very relationship driven business but actually they're doing great things with AI to take away to make the processes a check-in process much easier where actually I don't need to stand at a reception desk you know kind of doing things in the old-fashioned way I want my key I want to get to my room I want to you know etc but I actually really value a conversation with the chef who's going to tell me about where the ingredients were sourced and how his creativity around the dish, the beautiful dishes just served me.

45:56Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:You know, I really value that human to human. You know, so it's actually around that balance. And I think it's a really fascinating time that we're in right now. And as I say, if you can face the fear and kind of do it anyway, you know, the famous approach to fear, I think it's a great thing to be able to do, but to break it down, you know, break it down into those manageable chunks so that you can actually think logically and clearly rather than just be totally overwhelmed by the whole thing. So that's great advice. And, you know, when you're advising the different boards and the different boards that you sit on, or maybe you're actually in terms of an individual that you might be working with from a coaching perspective, what do you think separates those businesses that are almost just sort of surviving and kind of very focused on the short-term delivery versus those which are future-proofing the business, if you like, that has longevity in their strategy and the road ahead.

47:01Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:How do you see that perspective? And how do you advise boards in the right way to deliver for today but create the business of the future at the same time? Oh, I love that question. um yes it's it's exactly the right question um because it's how do you keep the lights on and how do you build sustainability and you have to do both um building the lights um so keeping the lights on has got to be about driving um uh an operational efficiency and making sure that you are um keeping costs down i mean even if you're a very big company you still need to make sure that you're optimizing your cost you don't want to get flabby but also you're driving operational performance so those two things those lenses are really important how you keep the lights on how do you do it in a cost-effective way but how do you do it with optimum operational performance so how do you get the best out of your people how do you get the best out of your processes how do you get the best out of your technology right and on the other side how do you build for a more sustainable future, you need to constantly be re-evaluating.

48:12Have you got the right operating model for the way the world is changing, both in terms of the way your customers and clients' behaviours are changing, and also the environment in which you operate? Is the competitive landscape changing? How do you keep an eye on that? How do you work on your USP to make sure that whatever it is you're doing whatever your product or service is shines amongst um the competitive landscape how do you make sure that people discover you how do you make sure that what you're doing stays relevant um are there moments where you should be pivoting what you do um do you rest on your laurels too much are there moments when you you would benefit from bringing in external speakers or external challenges to at least take a look at what you're doing and ask you some of those uncomfortable questions about, is what you're doing relevant to your client or your customer in the future?

49:13Is the way you're doing it, even if the product or services, is the way you're doing it the right thing with changing customer expectations and needs, the way people live their lives? If you think just the most simple example is how life has changed since COVID, it's much more normal now to have a more hybrid workforce and hybrid work styles the younger people coming into the workforces now have got different expectations about what it means to come into the workforce particularly around purpose and leading a meaningful life and making sure that any time given is time well spent and making sure that you're thinking about how do you give your younger people a wonderful experience to learn particularly in a more hybrid environment where they may not get as much face time as they would have done perhaps when you and I were starting out um so it's how to keep the lights on and optimize for the future um they're both slightly so one's more operational and one's more strategic

50:18Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:but you have to do both yeah absolutely yeah you're so right and again it's a little bit around the leadership style as well, the balcony versus the dance floor, the bigger picture, longer term view versus the day-to-day and this constant sort of adjustment. Because you're right, if all you focus on is keeping the lights on today and the immediate cash flow and the revenue and all of that good stuff, which we have to do, but if that's all you focus on, your competition are probably going to overtake you because they're thinking about actually what's coming down, what's coming next in five years' time, in 10 years' time.

50:51Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:So we have to be able to spend that time thinking. But I think that's a really great approach. And obviously, that's a huge amount of value that you bring, Carenza, when you work with these organisations, you know, as you do. And I want to talk a little bit about the storytelling aspect, because clearly in business, we're storytelling. You know, you have such a great confidence in your early careers from the BBC of how to ask open questions and be curious and bring the best out in a conversation as well. And, of course, you have quite recently got your wonderful book. So we're talking about storytelling.

51:30Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:Just talk a little bit around the book and what led up to you sort of writing that, really. because, you know, you must be really incredibly proud. You said you love writing. Early when we were talking, you said writing's been that common thread and going back to that sort of that note you found when you were eight years old. As well, you know, writing has been a theme for you. So talk about the book and kind of what led up to writing it and how you found the whole experience. Oh, thank you. Yes, I love writing. I write a little bit of something every single day. I write poetry. I write short stories.

52:13I write long form. This is the one you're talking about, Isaiah. I've got a review.

52:18Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:Seas of Snow, yes. Seas of Snow. Trust, betrayal, consequences. So Seas of Snow was inspired a number of years ago. I worked on a case when I was at the BBC, very sad case. You may have heard of it. It was the SOAM trial where a school caretaker called Ian Huntley murdered two 10-year-old schoolgirls. So I was embedded with Cambridge at Constabulary for about nine months while they were building up the evidence case against Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr. and worked behind the scenes with them as they were gathering that evidence and got to see firsthand a whole variety of different types of evidence but including videotape evidence and without going into too many details there was a particular day when I was spooling through tapes literal physical tapes it was it was a long time ago making notes about what would go into the BBC news coverage and what could go into the BBC current affairs coverage for the documentary one of the tapes was labeled um deposition site um and in my amateur lack of knowledge I didn't really know what that was um but I was quite um shocked and incredibly upset what that then revealed and I won't go into details about it but it was it was the findings that RAF Latham where where the girls' bodies were found.

53:57And I found it incredibly upsetting. And for a long time afterwards, I was very troubled thinking about the minor motives of a psychopath and what could have motivated a person to do something like that. And when the trial was happening in the Old Bailey, I sat a few feet away from Ian Huntley every single day when he would walk into the Old Bailey and sit in front of me because I was in the press gallery anyway as you can imagine I'm painting a picture but it was it was an incredibly upsetting and challenging time and but it got me also thinking about psychopathy and what is it what is it there are so many people who are psychopaths in everyday life you know there are plenty of people who are even chief execs of companies or world leaders who are psychopaths, but they don't go on to commit monstrous acts, most of them.

54:59It's very rare that a psychopath will go on to commit a monstrous act. What unites them and what's similar across the board is that they're unable to experience empathy. So I got very interested in, you know, whether evil is born or made. What is it that trigger when people go on to that? And that is actually my original motivation for training as an executive coach because I wanted to understand more about the way the human brain works so I went through the disciplines of humanistic psychology psychodynamic psychology gestalt psychology that um and learned a lot more about it and then equipped with all of that that's then when I started writing my books I started writing it um all the way back in uh 2013 and I what I read I I wrote it in all of my holidays over the next five, six years.

55:53And then I tried to get a book deal. I originally tried to get an agent, didn't manage to get an agent. I tried a few. I tried a lot. Everybody said, no, it's not for my list. Because the book itself is very, it's lyrical. It's quite poetical. But my book is inspired by that case. It's not that case. But what I've done is I've transposed some of the feelings that I had and the experience of learning about what a psychopath is. And I've transposed my story to 1950s England. And I've got one very lovely little girl and I've got one very, very bad man. And the story unfolds. So it's a very unusual style for a psychological thriller.

56:42but eventually I got a book deal and uh delighted to say that Penguin were my distributor as Unbound published it and Penguin distributed it globally and it became a bestseller within four months of it coming out so it's actually done very very well so I'm I'm very very proud of it and it came out as a hardback um and then the year after that it was made into a paperback um so my ambition is actually to get the movie made um all the all the mini series so that's one of the

57:12Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:things i'm working on in the next two years well amazing and what a great story i mean listen the want the inspiration where the inspiration came from or from from a really difficult like emotionally challenged scenario that you were that you were dealing with but and all these years later you know you've kind of got to have the finished article i mean it's a lesson in perseverance resilience, creativity. And actually, you've only just begun, haven't you? Because, you know, can't wait to see where you're going to take that next, Karen. So I have absolutely no doubt at all that you're going to achieve, you know, everything you want to.

57:45Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:And it's so huge congratulations. That's really inspiring that, you know, the art of the possible, right? If you can dream it, you can make it happen. And here we are with the beautiful book that's absolutely selling like hotcakes. How wonderful. Thank you very much. And, you know, Steve Jobs himself said the best way to predict the future is to invent it so that art of the possible it's a it's a wonderful thread for us all to hang on to actually just because it doesn't exist yet or it isn't there yet doesn't mean to say it can't happen yeah absolutely was it nelson mandela that said everyone says it's impossible until it's done or something like that i think there's a great quote um which exactly is is you know encapsulates that so we will put that in the show notes so that anyone that absolutely you want so I'm assuming you can get it on all good bookshops bookstores and Amazon so make sure you check out Caesar Snow because it's going to be it's a really great read and um so so Carence I could talk to you for hours because you've got so much of experience knowledge there's so many different angles to you you're a really interesting person you know with with and I'm just getting to know more about you through this conversation and um it is really a real privilege to be able to hear some of your experiences and you've had a lot of success right in in what you've achieved and it sounds like you had a good start in life with the family background and and you know how how your parents were and that that sort of motherly big sister role that you played to your to your younger brother and sister and obviously you've really reinvented yourself multiple times with the career that you've had which again is super inspiring but it won't all have been plain sailing i know that because it life never is so for anyone that's that's maybe listening can you think of a time which was challenging for you that you kind of bounce back from and how you managed to you know to to rebound from a disappointment or rejection or something not quite going the way you wanted just so that we have a you know we keep it real as well um you You know, because life isn't always rainbows and unicorns, is it?

59:49Oh, and I wish it was. It's like, oh, pick a year. I would say life always throws challenges at you. Things are never easy. And, yes, in an interview like this, it's so nice to be able to, and thank you for your questions, it's so nice to be able to think about some of them, the highlights and the things that you feel that you've learned that you can then share with others. um and and this opportunity as well thinking about what what would I pick there's there are so many um so big knockbacks um I think one of the hardest things I dealt with was um when I first left the royal household and was leaving to join BT I joined BT um shortly before Christmas time in 2019 and I joined I think my start date was November 25th or something I think that's what sticks in my memory um and before Christmas time I was I was brought in as a big director level job um big team big budget and before Christmas my boss at the time told me that um in the new year at a given moment, I was going to need to make 22 % headcount reductions.

1:01:11And that budget that was quoted as X is actually going to be Y. And then a few weeks later, lockdown happened. So there was a combination of circumstances where BT was going to have its first ever compulsory redundancies. And I was going to have to manage a large part of that for my team. and of course nobody was expecting that but also it was in the backdrop of COVID happening and BT wanted to press ahead with the the compulsive redundancies because that's actually separate to all the various other wonderful things that BT then did of course through through COVID to help society and I was also part of some of the really good stuff as well so you know it's all a balance but that was really hard only just only just kind of joining a team and then having to figure out how to go about making redundancies in the most compassionate way possible and also to pivot all of the work that the team was doing which was largely in-person work to help them learn how to do things in a very completely different way through the power of digital.

1:02:23So it was a leadership challenge there were some people who I didn't even really meet in person until the lockdowns were lifting because I only had I'd only joined shortly before Christmas time and there was only a few weeks um really before we then went into into the lockdown um so that was just a very difficult time and personally speaking I I was I worked just because of the sheer volume of work that needed to be done I I worked most days 14 15 hour days I was not you know, baking banana bread and doing PE classes at home with the nation, with Joe Wicks. You know, I was very much, it was just a huge amount of work.

1:03:10I was ever so tired. And I was just very, very aware of the kind of leadership responsibility of trying to galvanize and motivate everybody else. So that was, I think, probably one of the hardest things I've ever been through just because it wasn't just one challenge it was so many different types of challenges and my own motivation up remembering to eat properly remembering to try and get some sleep with all the worries of everything also accepting all the various um opportunities that were coming my way to try to help with this help with that help with this help with that it was it was a real stress and strain um but uh but we but we we survived and we we lived through that but it

1:03:53Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:wasn't the easiest part of my career no no not at all and that's where leadership gets tested i always say it's easy to be a good leader when when the time or relatively easy to be a good leader when things uh things are on the up and it's a positive environment it's when it's tough like that that's when you really show how you know your leadership strength isn't it really and uh no well I can imagine that and and Kernsa you'll have had loads of advice maybe it's through that period maybe it was through different times of your life etc but can you think of a standout piece of advice that's really helped you over the years?

1:04:28Actually there's lots of them but the one that really sticks in my mind when when I you know when I think about this sort of question is the one from Satya Nadala, who's the head of Microsoft, says, be a learn-it-all, not a know-it-all. And that really resonates with me. And although I only heard it probably for the first time about six, seven years ago, I realised that's kind of my ethos in life. I love learning. I would advise anyone to be curious, be hungry, go for it. Don't ever be the know-it-all in the room, always be the learn-it-all. And I live by that.

1:05:13Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:Yeah, great. I absolutely love that. That's really cool. And, yeah, so if we were thinking about this year, Carenza, can you describe this year in one word? And if you can, why? One word for a writer. It's difficult.

1:05:33Intentional. This year is intentional. And I'm trying to be more intentional about my rest and also about how I use my work time and how I use my rest time. Because when I first left my executive career a few years ago, I was doing lots and lots and lots of pro bono work and charity work. And I still am. But now I'm fully portfolio. I also need to balance that portfolio in different types of ways. And I'm still doing far too much pro bono and charitable work. It's not that I don't want to do it. It's just that for practical reasons, I want to make sure that I reduce that slightly so that I can concentrate more on all the other work that I've got coming in.

1:06:25Because sometimes I turn down work because I've committed to doing something pro bono for a charity. So I'm being very intentional about that. there's some intentional about exercise, rest and nutrition.

1:06:38Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:Yeah, yeah, no, that's great, actually. And there's a big lesson in there for all of us that sometimes I think, you know, I've had a tendency to say yes to everything. And actually, to have the ability and the confidence to say no or not right now, but thank you ever so much, you know, is actually a good thing because it allows you for the things that you do decide to do, you do them well, fully focused, with intention, knowing exactly why, coming back to the why, and actually you'll be in a happier place and will do a better job overall. So, yeah, I think that's a great lesson for all of us, actually, and so I appreciate that.

1:07:15Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:And, you know, we have a playlist, Carenza, as you know, and we love music because it brings a lot of energy, it brings back memories, whatever. You know, I love different types of music, but what song are we going to add to our playlist from you? I am gifting you the joy of Mr Bojangles, the Sammy Davis Jr. version. And I'll tell you why. If you don't know the track, please listen to it. Get your Spotify out. Other music channels are available. But it's wonderful. First of all, you have the magic of the musicality of Sammy Davis Jr.'s voice. it's the the melodiousness of it is just intoxicating and then you have this wonderful track which is a masterclass in storytelling it's the most lovely so I've got do you know I've got goosebumps even thinking about it I really do and it's a masterclass in storytelling and it's about triumph optimism over even the hardest and darkest times but musically it starts with this very sort of light touch whistling, which feels very relaxed.

1:08:32By gosh, by the time you get to the middle and the end, you're big band sound. You're full on. You've got the wind instruments. You've got this fantastic double bass going, which just booms, booms, booms. And it just speaks to me. And the character of Mr Bojangles reminds me of a couple of people in my life. One in particular is my granddad. I just, there's something about the joy of Mr. Bojangles that reminds me of my granddad. And this idea that even when you're going through some really difficult times, you can find the joy in life. And then the last little extra bit that I just think touches me is there's an element in the song where we learn that Mr Bojangles' dog, his faithful companion, is no longer with us.

1:09:25And that little moment, it just, you know, we're a nation of pet lovers in this country. And I have my own, I have my cat, Cabbage. And so that really touches me, this idea of how important our pets are. So it's just everything. Listen to Mr Bojangles.

1:09:45Brave Bold Brilliant Hosts:Excellent. What a great, great addition to the playlist. and I love the sort of what it means to you behind it as well, Carenza. So thank you for that. And my last question is Brave Bold Brilliant, obviously the name of the podcast, a proud brand of my business as well, actually. So we love it so much. What does Brave Bold Brilliant mean to you, Carenza? Well, brave is around having the courage to do things even when you're scared to do them. bold is around showing up it's not necessarily about being showy or showy offy but it's about showing up and brilliant it's about being your best you yes what a way to end amazing thank you so much I've really loved our conversation Carenza thank you for being so open so humble so you know intuitive and sharing with such a love and passion I really appreciate it I know everyone listening is going to absolutely love this so thank you so much thank you so much for the lovely conversation your wonderful questions Jeanette