Wales Rugby Icon Jonathan Davies CBE: Union, League & Life After Sport

0:00I had to spend months on end up in Addenbrooke's and the only way they could stay there was because the money that the rugby club from Raffles gave to my mum. Growing up in the village was, you know, rugby club was an integral part of the village and everyone kind of congregated there. And I played, you know, for the village and but also played for the school. Although I loved living in Sydney and I loved playing in the NRL, I thought that maybe was the best option for me. I could not turn my back on witness because they're the ones that give me the opportunity to play what I believe.

0:30Jeannette Linfoot:Welcome back to Brave Bold Brilliant, the podcast where we talk to incredible people about their experiences in business and in life, gaining that first-hand insight into how they've unleashed their potential to become brave, bold and brilliant. I'm Jeanette Linfup, and whether we're sitting at the boardroom tables of big international businesses or exploring the exciting world of entrepreneurs. It's all about stepping up to the next level while staying true to yourself. And today's guest has done exactly that. Not once, but several times over. Into the last minute, bit of injury time to go as Robert Jones feeds again.

1:06Jeannette Linfoot:Jonathan Davis, the drop ball once more. Is it wide? The arm is raised and he's done it again. So today it's a genuine pleasure to welcome a true legend of Welsh rugby. one of the few players in history to captain his country in both rugby codes, union and league. So from his beginnings in Tromsaren, he went on to become one of the most gifted fly halves of his generation before making the bold decision to walk away from a successful union career and reinvent himself in league. He came back and he did it all again. And since retiring from the pitch, he's built an entirely new career as one of the most respected voices in rugby, broadcasting with the BBC as a columnist and more recently as a business development leader bringing the same driving instinct he had as a player into the world of business.

1:54Jeannette Linfoot:Alongside all of that his charity work particularly in supporting cancer it really has earned him a great honour of being an OBE. A true legacy that means just as much to him as anything he did on the field. We're talking about vision, reinvention, resilience, leadership under real pressure. And today we're going to unpack the 10 lessons in leadership and life that Jonathan's incredible journey has taught him, from failure and self-belief right through to the legacy he wants to leave behind. So please welcome to Brave Bold Brilliant, the one and only Jonathan Davies. Well, welcome, Jonathan Davies, CBE.

2:35Thank you. Thank you.

2:36Jeannette Linfoot:Got to give you your correct title. I don't know what it is anymore. It doesn't make any difference, does it? You know, you just start off in life and you don't set out to get kind of these honours. But I suppose if you do nice things, it's nice to get them. So when you were growing up in Trimsaren then, you never thought that all of a sudden you would be there at the palace collecting, you know. And we've gone from an OB to a CBE, haven't you, Jonathan? Yes, yes, yes. It's been odd, you know, like I said. doing the things I'm still doing now I would never ever imagine in my world of dreams when I was growing up at Timsaran but I suppose that was the drive and the motivation I needed to get out of Timsaran really, not that I wanted to get out of it at the time it's the best great village fond memories of living and growing up at Timsaran my mum still lives there and I'm still kind of acquainted with a lot of people there.

3:38Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, well, actually, and this brings us really to a big topic, which I know is really important too. And it's about sort of values, you know, and how we live our life and what's really important to us and where does that come from? And how does it change over time? When you think about that, because I know, you know, the way you carry yourself in everything you do professionally and personally, people say, oh, Jiffy is a lovely bloke, he's such a nice guy and has achieved all these things stayed humble but i think your your values you know are an interesting topic so has they have they changed over the years for you jonathan would you say or pretty much stable i don't think they've changed i think you set out to be the nicest person you can possibly uh be and be nice to people um but i think very early on in my uh in my life i kind of learned how important the values were because um the growing out in the village was um you know rugby club was an integral part of the other village and everyone kind of congregated there uh and i played you know for the village and uh but also played for the school um i never missed a game for the school uh and i played for the the young youth sides of the village and then there was one day where uh school and a village game clashed um and the teacher found out about it and he said if you play for the village i'll ban you from going on a Welsh schools course in Aberystwyth and that was my chances of a Welsh school cap and in those days maybe my last chance of a cap had gone out the window but because the village had been so supportive to my mum and dad because my dad had liver cancer he was the first Welshman of liver cancer and they had to spend months on end up in Addenbrooke's and the only way they could stay there was because the money that the rugby club from Raffles gave to my mum so when he said look you You know, you've got to make a choice.

5:28There was no choice. It was simple. I had to play for the village because how supportive they'd been. He found out. He banned me. And I didn't have a Welsh youth cap. And I knew the best choice for me would have been to play for the school. And it would have furthered my rugby career. But I couldn't do it. I just couldn't do it. So I paid the price for it, but I felt better to myself.

5:53Jeannette Linfoot:Well, you paid a price in one context, but actually you could sleep at night. You knew you'd done the right thing in your heart. And actually, it didn't hold you back career-wise because look at everything you had. Yeah, I didn't know that at the time, though. No, yes. The call was purely on doing the right thing and repaying people who had been kind of really supportive at the time where we needed support as a family. So, and I think, you know, they hold me in high regard because of that, I suppose. because I stuck with the team. But I love being a Tremsar and boy and I love being part of that village.

6:31Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, and those values, have they stayed the same, do you think, over the years? Or have they shifted? No, I think you have to try and do the right thing all the time. On some occasions, there is a tough call and you have to really think through it. But ultimately, hopefully, you know you you do make the right call and those are because of your values yeah and and you know often i mean we talk about values in business all the time you know in the company values and and sometimes i think as leaders we don't always align our personal values with the business that we work in it can be a bit of a conflict sometimes i don't know if you see yeah you do see in business now right i do i remember working for a bank called rename nameless and their values are integrity and honesty, which was severely tested then in the media.

7:23But I just feel whatever your company values are, I think your life values are your life values anyway. So would you go to a company where those values aren't aligned with your own values? So I think those are the key issues. And sometimes you can go into business and a lot of companies don't know what their values are. So when you go there and you've committed yourself to it, and then you realise that maybe, hang on, this is not the company for me. There's two things you can do here that can change their mindset and their values. Or if you can't change them, you've got to leave. I think that those are the decisions sometimes that you come along in your life personally and business as well.

8:05Jeannette Linfoot:So you got tested very early in that situation. Can you think of other times in your career where you, whether it was in your playing career or in your media career, where your values have been tested and you had another choice to make where you I mean it's a bit hard overhead as well right I think sometimes that these kind of decisions that come along there was another one where I went when I went to rugby league I went to witness and witness put their faith in me you know they said they did a great sales pitch on me saying I was the last piece of the jigsaw um and I would fit into their side perfectly and then they said go to Australia and further your career on the off season to play for Sydney Bulldogs and then Sydney Bulldogs when I played there offered me three years and wanted to buy me out of my witness contract so I would have moved to Sydney and stayed in Sydney but I had three years left of my contract in witness although I loved living in Sydney and I loved playing in the NRL and I thought that maybe was the best option for me I could not turn my back on witness because they're the ones that give me the opportunity to play rugby league so that was another kind of decision that I had to make and go no it would be great for me and my family to go to Australia but I'm going to stay in witness because they're the ones who put the faith in me and the confidence in me and gave me the opportunity to play so very early on in my rugby league career I made that call as well So that's not very much about loyalty It is It is It is A couple of years down the line they said Jif we haven't got any money you've got to go mate and I had to say okay and I had to go somewhere else But at the time, and I think in business, yeah, I've been offered other opportunities in other companies at the time.

9:50But being loyal to the company that gave you that opportunity, and if that comes to a natural end, then you can make a call on where you go and what you do. But I think you have to make, there's a lot of decisions that you have to make throughout your career, you know, private, personal, business career, that you've got to kind of think, right, okay, what's the right thing to do? And ultimately, doing the right thing is, for me, is the most important thing.

10:17Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah. See, what I love about these kind of conversations is there's so much. I mean, this is the second time that you have been on Brave Bold Brilliant. Yeah, yeah. And it's almost two years, two years to the day. And in that first episode, so anyone that hasn't actually listened to the episode with Jonathan the first time round, please do listen back to that. I thought I rambled on. I didn't grasp the, I didn't get the right points or what I felt. So I thought I'd better come on again. Well, well, see, now that actually is not at all the reality. That's your perception. So this is potentially around the stories that we sometimes tell ourselves as well in life, right?

10:56Jeannette Linfoot:Can we do it? Can't we do it? Yeah. So I'm going to look back around in a minute. But what I really loved about that first episode that we did together, that we very much sort of dug into the the highs the lows of your sporting career primarily and that shift into media yeah what we're doing today is we're bringing it all together full circle to say well actually there's a lot that we can learn from sport there's a lot that we can apply to business to life to the way we carry ourselves and and for me that makes this a really rich conversation which is relevant to so many people um but what's the mindset around the stories we tell ourselves then jonathan um that when we have that gremlin in our head that sometimes saying oh i wasn't i wasn't so good or didn't really i can't do this versus the the other side that's saying i'm absolutely going to go out and smash this what where does that play in for mindset perspective do you think?

11:53Jeannette Linfoot:It's an imposter syndrome, isn't it? I think so. And thinking that you can do better, so, you know, have another go at it. But I just think that that is, for me, is controlling your emotions. And in sport, you're judged every Saturday. Yeah. So you go out on a Saturday, you win or lose, you're judged. And then you start again on a Monday. And I think that's a good thing because you can readdress the things that have gone wrong and look at things that have gone well. and then you can just work on them and then see how goes the following week um and i think that but the thing is if you prepare and you are confident and you give it all then there shouldn't be kind of any any doubt in your mind i think that's that's the key um i just think that sometimes you're going underprepared um and then it all comes down to the day and you just got to put your negative thoughts behind you you have reinvented yourself multiple times i would say um but throughout that those working class values of respect hard work focus just give it your best shot that real that real work ethic and and enjoying the ride along the way how how have you managed to bring that work ethic into pretty much everything that you've done from the early days right the way through to where you are and from a career perspective now and is it an effort But I think subconsciously, you know, I never set up to do these things that I've done and the change.

13:24But once I'm not scared of making big changes, big, big decisions. And once I make those, you know, ultimately, I've got to give it everything. When I fail, and I think from not having success very early on in my career, you know, not being great in school, which is not great. you know not having any well school's cap then i had an injury you know it's overcoming then and learning from your failings and then appreciating what you have i think that's the key because i didn't i nothing was handed to me and i wasn't given anything very early in my career everything that came afterwards through hard work i really really appreciated and enjoyed

14:07Jeannette Linfoot:so so when it comes to working hard jonathan you've you've obviously had multiple different phases of your career and you know that that work ethic which might come from your early days of growing up where you did and and the values that you had how have you reconciled the working hard with the enjoying the the journey and what's helped you keep focus keep the effort that's needed to succeed at the highest level but at the same time still enjoy it i think i think i think they come hand in hand nothing's given to you nothing's easy and the harder we harder you work the better you get and then the more enjoyment you get out of it um but i think it was carrie that's one of the golfers said how you play it wasn't it the harder the harder the harder you how do you practice the more you practice the luckier you get and that's that's a brilliant line you know uh and i and i think that that is ultimately true you know you get some naturals um but they are the hard-working naturals are better players than the normal naturals and I think in that and what drove me was the fact that once I got success I enjoyed it and I made sure I enjoyed it and then once I'd set the standard maybe in my amateur days once I got to Neith and Llanelli and then to Wales wherever I went I wanted to replicate that in any sector that I could so I made sure that I listened because I was going into new areas.

15:43Rugby League was new, broadcasting was new, then doing business development for companies I've worked with. So all of those were new areas for me, and I had to listen and learn from those people. And then, like a sponge, I'd take all on board and slowly try to master that craft.

16:04Jeannette Linfoot:So I think it's really similar in business, though, Jiffy, actually. You start out, I mean, certainly for my career, I started at the bottom and then I worked my way up to become the CEO. But when you're at the bottom in the foothills, you know, you only know what you know. You don't know everything. And you've got to really kind of learn your craft along the way, haven't you? And I think people respect that. And also, I think people want to promote from within because you know that person. The person knows that company, you know the people in the company. they much rather say right let's kind of promote from within rather than and appreciating i think what's important as well is is that if you go to work for someone and they see that you're working hard and trying to achieve something which is something new to you they value you as well and i and i think that's important i think another story when i went to rugby league the reason i went to rugby league was because I didn't feel valued by the WIU.

17:03I was captain of Wales and I loved nothing more than being captain of my country and playing for Wales and yet I felt that you know they didn't appreciate who I was and they didn't value their kind of employees which were the players and ultimately when I went a lot of players followed me and I don't think that was because of me I think it's because of you know the the way that they felt they were treated

17:28Jeannette Linfoot:within the union it's so true and you know because we're talking about how you bring a team together hard work shared values common purpose clear vision you know all of this stuff that actually you've lived and breathed through your entire career at different stages and when you were when you were captain and you're building a team were you ever in a scenario where you had really talented players but you just didn't feel they had the same maybe work ethic or focus and you had any tough choices yeah a lot that can often happen you have amazing talented people but they just don't quite gel or don't quite kind of all in pain you know in a lot of the sites we've had and I was lucky because I was regarded as maybe one of those players that did something different but ultimately for me the team came first and if the team didn't work together, that wouldn't give me the platform to do the stuff that I could do maybe outside of that and I think there's a lot of players where they'd lose a little concentration because they weren't fit enough and then they'd give too many penalties away so you'd have to come back to them and say, look, the reason you're coming offside is because you're lazy, you're not coming back into the line, you've got to work in your fitness, ultimately you won't be giving penalties away.

18:48If you do give penalties away, unfortunately, we'll have to get someone else in instead of you. So, people are always scared of feedback. So, I think feedback, you have to be, you have to give good feedback, but then people have to accept that sometimes there's bad feedback. And it's up to the person then to see how we digest that and comes back with a positive mindset said or not um but ultimately you create the culture that those people understand what the culture is so you might not need that conversation that's the key for me is is and making people understand everyone knows what the goal is everyone knows what their role is within that team and ultimately what the culture is and if you fall short of that culture then you've got to accept what the consequences are and some having difficult conversations yeah and i love that

19:40Jeannette Linfoot:actually because as you was talking i was thinking almost the team self-regulates in that scenario doesn't it where you know in sports yeah if you have that i'm not sure it happens the same way in business to be honest it can but i think it takes probably a a team that has been together for quite a long time before that sort of happens whereas i think in sport you're almost drilled into you probably from earlier again you go you know in business you know you just quarterly or annually in rugby, in sport it's every week but also there's so many ways to create that culture and to gel together again, going rugby league and rugby union the rugby union boys were far more maybe social because it was an amateur sport than rugby league boys were mindset was work, win, that's it back to work so when we came out, we enjoyed a couple of pints on the Sunday after the game so we went as a couple of extra rugby union boys and we created this environment and ultimately then the rugby league's boys joined us and we became friends far quicker than maybe we would have if we hadn't created that social environment as well and the wives were welcomed into that environment as well and because everyone was happy and got on with each other because there was players you had the fire from London you had Alan Tate from Scotland you had mossy coloto from tonga um you had phil mckenzie from australia you know me from sara and um so it was it was you know a real diverse set to get together and the way we did that training wise and socially then helped us become you know far better side yeah and i think you're right because sometimes um we we it's good to have sometimes a separation between the business and social back in philly it's a bit like back in the day i'd you know i'd go on a resort visit and check out all the hotels and they were always the trips where you actually bonded yes because you know you'd have a few glasses of wine you'd have a laugh you'd be going around hotels etc and it was the out of work stuff that really is where the relationship and then and you know they'd open up on things that they wouldn't open up in work yes because maybe it's not it's not the time and the place to have those conversations so yeah and and i think again that's all about building relationships and creating culture and if i if i throughout my career in in sport business and broadcasting i think it's it's all about um relationships communication for me is the most important thing doesn't matter what sector you you have to communicate um and you have you have better outcomes so all all of that has been on building relationships um you know sometimes those relationships just fade away but if you try and kind of keep them going you never know when that relationship is gonna you know open up again yeah and what are some of the early relationships that are that are still really important to you today that you know because i'm sure you would have had a whole bunch of mentors yeah or informally you I've been so lucky.

22:54I tend to migrate towards good people. And my dad was maybe my first mentor because he said, you've got to look tidy as a rugby player. That'll baffle him for a bit. and also he said when you ask the referee how much time is left and you're tired, that's the time to give the game up so those are two things he told me, and then I had a great teacher called Marion Davis who taught me how to enjoy it and work on my basic skills then I went to when I played for Wales Brian Thomas was the team manager of Wales sorry Brian Thomas was the team manager of Neath and he gave me the captaincy in Neath and the one I thought I wasn't ready for it but he knew I was and he was a Cambridge graduate and very good successful businessman and the other one was a guy called Neil O 'Halloran who was an ex-professional sportsman who run the business that I worked for and allowed me to go training so I had really great mentors and even then you're going to work for the broadcasting I made sure that I'd have to sit there properly wear the right colours but I would go to people and kind of make sure that I knew what I was getting into.

24:09So I listened and I migrated to good people. I've been very lucky that I've had them ever since.

24:15Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, and those relationships stay with you for decades, don't they? You nurture them. And I think sometimes as well what can happen, and I see this in business as well, right, where some people, you know, the word networking, and it's all a little bit kind of cringy, you know, like the word networking. But to me, what it really means is building meaningful relationships with people over a long period of time. It's not around what can you do, what's in it for me. It's not to do with that at all. But what you tend to find, I think, when you surround yourself with the right people, you have each other's backs.

24:49I've never been scared or embarrassed to ask. I always want the second opinion. I'd have my own opinion and I'd ask a couple of friends or people that I admired in those fields that I'd always ask for a second opinion and then make the choices on it but also, you know, as a leader I was never scared of delegating now delegating for me was empowering people that wanted to be empowered and not just wasting, you know, being lazy a lot of players look at delegation sometimes go, well, he's just He's just handing stuff over to us for us to do. That's not the case. So sometimes the good leaders understand they can't do everything.

25:33So they have to delegate. Otherwise, I don't think they're doing their job properly. So even, like I said, always asked for information and I've always given people positions so that they can get better.

25:47Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah, and you're not afraid of having the tough conversations either, right? and giving the difficult feedback. And where did that come from, that ability to do that? Was it just over practice and other times when you weren't so good at it and you found it more awkward to have those tough conversations with players?

26:08I think when I got into an environment, the first thing I had to do was earn the respect of everyone else and of credibility. and if I was a man of a witness and I'd only played rugby league for a few years well I'd earned that respect and to get that the best award I've ever had was being voted player's player of the year throughout the rugby league and because I knew then that my fellow professionals had respected me and thought I was not a bad player but no I think I remember one experience growing up I was a bad loser when I was a kid but then someone said show me a bad loser I'll show you a loser which I don't think is correct I remember I played in a tournament and no one knew really who I was we lost this game and I thought the refereeing decisions went against us and we were unlucky and the referee that day was a guy called Clive Norlin Clive Norlin was maybe the best referee in the world at the time similar to Nigel Owens and I came off the field and then I kicked the ball and the ball got stuck in the tree Clive Norlin, an international referee at the time came up to me and said go and get the ball I went no, he said if you don't get the ball I'm going to report you to the WYU for misbehaving and that instance stayed with me forever so I thought yeah one, that's really taught me you know so I climbed the tree in my rugby boots like a bright brat but he'd made the point and I learned a lesson and I think I was 17 that day so yeah from then on I've always had tough conversations but I think if you relate back to your personal life and the tough conversations you've had you know like I remember someone said I'd been in Cambridge seeing my dad and then I remember going in the lift and my dad's in his dressing room with a drip and I was 12 and then thinking I might not see my dad alive ever and having a conversation with my mum so having that situation and telling a player that he's not playing well is like nothing I knew it wasn't personal I would say that I was giving the information and again I think it's players how they react to it and if you react badly to it and just throw your toys up to the pram, well, you're not for us.

28:39Jeannette Linfoot:Yeah. You know, we're telling you these things that you can improve as a player. Ultimately, we improve as a team. Yeah, it's about the team. Yeah. So, if he doesn't listen and, you know, he doesn't take these things on board, then unfortunately, the next conversation is going to be even tougher. And he might not be there. And maybe, you know, as awful as that situation would have been with your dad, because I think he was 12 when he was diagnosed with the team when he passed away, right you know those conversations between you know your mum and yourself and your sister would have been absolutely the worst conversation you could possibly hear so anything after that i guess that's where i kind of yeah barely resilience from and then you you think right okay maybe there is no great outcome from that conversation with my mum you know because she can't do anything about But then I've always gone, you know, whatever the event is or whatever the situation is, it's how you respond to it, which can control the outcome.

29:41So if you can respond positively out of it and get the best outcome that you could possibly get, even if it's shit, it's still about how you respond to that situation. and I think that's the important thing that people have got to kind of think of before you know they can get to the outcome yeah because you've got it so you've got a bit of it

30:05Jeannette Linfoot:this is the formula right from the resilience that you've got so just say it slowly because this is really important for anyone listening this is gold whatever the event whatever happens and there's a situation there's going to be an outcome but I think it's how you respond to that event, you can control the outcome I've never ever felt that I've been a victim but that does I've got to be positive and look after my mum and my sister my wife passes away I have three young kids I can't lie in bed and feel sorry for myself I go to rugby league if I kind of give it up and not give it my best shot I won't be playing rugby league for long and I can't play rugby union and then it's kind of broadcasting if I don't learn the trade quickly and keep my credibility I won't be in television for long there's some youngster coming through so you have to be positive I've never ever felt that I've been the victim.

31:16And even when I went to Widders and I went, right, Jeff, world record signing in 89, 1993, we don't get any money. You've got to go, okay, how many games I've got left this year? I've got four games to perform so I can get another contract somewhere else. So I think ultimately, no matter how difficult those situations are, you've got to try and work out what the best response is for you to have the best outcome and it might not might not be a great outcome um but you know it's the best that that it can be at that particular stage yeah i mean

31:55Jeannette Linfoot:those are all like huge monument monumental life events life and death events yeah you've had to deal with and all a lot of that playing out in the public arena as well when you had all of that going on. You know, I've done some wrong things in my time. I got done for Drink and Drive, which I regret. Kind of done, you know, it's things that happen in marriages and, you know, try and get a nice outcome out of them, but, you know, it doesn't work. But it's, you've got to, you know, you've got to think positively and think what could be the best option after some difficult positions. Yeah, and actually, as human beings, we're all flawed, right?

32:40No one's not perfect. I'm definitely not perfect. But I just think that, again, it comes back to values. Yeah, circle. You can't stick to them, you know, 100 % of your life, I suppose, and you fall down. And it's how you get back up and how you respond and try and, you know, build. I think waking up on that morning when I'd been done for drinking dry is one of the worst feelings of my life, knowing that you've done such a terrible thing, but you've got to learn from it and move on. And that's what happens.

33:15Jeannette Linfoot:What year was that, Jiffy? That was in 1988. 88. Yeah. So I was caught in the wheel, playing for Llethy, things were brilliant. And then all of a sudden, I decided to do something really stupid. and if it's a fund, he got accepted then. And then there was the whole kind of fallout from that. Not really, because I built it up. 88 was the best year I had for Wales because I could get away from it and just show people what I could do on the field. And that was it. I just realised my mistakes, work hard, get my head down and do the best I possibly could for club and country. Yeah. what's happening at that point in your life then is that ego going on is that sort of you know i think yeah i think it's i think yeah sometimes you have you have to say no and you have to learn to say no and i think coming from a little village and all of a sudden you are out of the way it's unbelievable and I went on tour and I said yes to everything and it was my total inexperience and not maybe having the right people at the right time around me then that kind of I tore my hamstring and I missed maybe playing for the Lions and then I got caught in drinking and driving and it just spiralled rather than someone saying sit down, calm down yeah yeah maybe not having a dad was at the time because you know you make like I said I think the proudest thing I've got at the minute is the fact that how my kids have turned out yeah and should I have done things differently I don't know but I look at them now and I go god they're brilliant kids you've got four daughters right yeah four daughters and Scott my son and he's a dad now and I look at him and you know best thing is what he's like as a dad is unbelievable will yeah um so you know that's that's my proudest family and i'm you know and at the moment i'm ultimately extremely happy in life and uh and as we said the balance is is important yeah definitely and when you have those knockbacks and those failings or whatever you want to describe it as how do you then pull you pull yourself back up through through those those challenges because i think you know someone listening to this everyone goes through highs lows you have success you lose money you know whatever goes on in business you know whatever or in life but the key is to not stay down too long isn't it and to be able to pull yourself up learn from it don't yourself off yeah and i think sometimes right i think the best thing is you you can make mistakes like i did and it was my fault you can get you can have bad decisions it's not your fault yeah so don't beat yourself up about it you've got to reassess it and go right now how can i do it differently if i need to do differently or do i move on and do it somewhere else and someone else appreciates me so the thing is like it's just being positive and and it's people say oh it's bounce back ability isn't it you know now you get up after you've been kicked like but i think that's true and that is that that is so true because again it's how you respond to things and again you know losing your dad but then I think that I got kicked I got I just didn't I got an opportunity for Neath I worked so hard on the off season and I was ready and it's the fittest I'd ever been the fastest I'd ever been and I was really looking forward to that season I go and play in a Snelling Semmes tournament and I tear my cruciate ligament I didn't play for 14 months and that's when I questioned myself like is just, am I really cut out to do this sport?

37:11I'm not going to make it. So that drove me, the motivation to drive and drive. Of course, I'd made it but then the expectation was high for me and to come back from a toned cruciate. I worked my socks off and again I played for one game for Neith Athletic against one Adelaide, I still remember it, Cotherbert in Neith. and I played and they took me off in half an hour and then Brian Thomas said we've got a cup game next Saturday you're in and I went I don't think I'm ready he said you're ready mate he said you're in the side you're fit you're in you're in and I was it and I following week previous Newport we beat Newport and we got to the Schweppes Cup final you know that season so it's just having a positive mindset no matter how many times you get kicked you've got to just keep on going I think

38:04Jeannette Linfoot:And actually, you know, you do a huge amount for charity, but, you know, based on those personal situations, losing your dad, losing, you know, your wife and everything you do for the counter charities that you support today is doing good in the world as well, right? Despite the heartache that you had as a family. I think, again, it's about environment and culture, honesty. Because you go on those bike rides and you know everyone's there because they've had a traumatic time. So my role is just pushing. There's so many people like crying and saying, I can't do this, can't do this. I'm saying, is it tougher than what your sister's going through in chemo now?