1/12/26: Senator Chris Van Hollen On ICE, Gaza, Schumer & MORE!

28:37It's a pretty long document. It was fiercely negotiated. And it ultimately required them to provide some reporting on a lot of these issues, right, in terms of the killing, in terms of the distribution of humanitarian aid. Unfortunately, when the report came out, I felt that it sort of whitewashed the situation. I said so publicly. Interestingly, if you look at the amount of humanitarian aid going into Gaza, it did go up just before the report was issued. And, you know, the administration did tell me that they used that as leverage to improve the delivery of humanitarian assistance. The problem is, as soon as the report came out, they didn't stick with it.

29:25I mean, the Biden administration didn't stick with it. They did not use the levers of power that they have. For a lot of rank-and-file Democrats, like ordinary voters, AIPAC funding and position on the Gaza genocide has become a litmus test for any candidates they support, and in particular candidates they support in 2020. First of all, would you ever accept AIPAC funding? And second of all, I'm curious, you know, do you have a litmus test for future candidates to represent the Democratic Party nationally? So, no, I don't accept AIPAC money. I don't think anybody should accept AIPAC money. You know, I remember when I proposed my amendment, it was written in a completely neutral way in the sense it applied to any country.

30:10We just said when the United States is providing military assistance to a country, they have to comply with these basic standards. AIPAC came out against that. You know, the issue with AIPAC, as we know, is they essentially adopt the position of the government of Israel. And there are going to be times when the interests of the government of Israel and the United States obviously diverge. I don't think what Israel's been doing is in Israel's own interests, but that, of course, is for the people of Israel to decide. But the short answer to your question is I do not think that anybody should be taking AIPAC money.

30:57And I think that there does need to be accountability in the Democratic Party for whether people stood up and challenged all the terrible things that were happening in Gaza during that period of time and now. And does that mean, Senator Schumer, do you think that there should be new leadership in future Congresses in the Senate? Well, as to future Congresses, that's going to be obviously something for the Democratic caucus. But let me just say this with respect to the presidential race in 2028. You know, my view is it's going to be important to see whether the candidates are running for the highest office in the land.

31:40where they stood on this question of conscience. Yeah. And I think that question of conscience, obviously, you know, for me, one of the clearest dividing lines is around Gaza. But I think, you know, also the way that people have stood up or failed to stand up in this moment with the second Trump administration. You know, I mentioned before and you mentioned going to see whether Kilmar Obrego Garcia was alive or dead. You know, I think the decisions that were made on the previous shutdown fight, you know, everybody was sort of behind you guys. And then you had Schumer and a few breakaway Democrats deciding, oh, we're going to we're going to cave without getting anything in return.

32:16I know you're part of what's called the quote unquote fight club. You and some other Democratic members of the Senate. So how do you see like how have Democrats done in this moment and what should they have done? How should they have conducted themselves differently? So I think a lot of Democrats were late to recognize the danger posed by the Trump administration. I mean, you know, people would sort of say, maybe they're not serious. This is just rhetoric, even as the Trump administration engaged in lawless activity at home and overseas. And immigration was one of the earlier ones. Yeah. Yeah.

32:54Because we had this case of Kilmora Brigo Garcia. Right. He was snatched off the streets of Maryland. He was sent to Seacott, this notorious gulag in El Salvador. And when I went down there, there were a lot of voices in the Democratic Party that said, no, don't do that. You know, don't don't focus at all. Did anyone come to you directly? I mean, they're sort of a matter of public record. Yeah, but not just there, but also around the country. And it was like, you know, we shouldn't be talking about this because when it comes to immigration issues, the Trump position is popular. We should always change the subject to something else.

33:38I mean, here you have people being snatched. Now that's changed. Now we have people who are responding much more than they were before. But at that time, it was really very much a finger in the wind kind of thing. And, you know, despite the fact that you had this gross violation of the Constitution and things began to change back then. I mean, you know, when we had the Kilmar Brigo Garcia case, folks like, you know, Joe Rogan on his podcast were saying, you know, I'm not into this just denying people their due process rights in the Constitution. And that's what this administration has been doing, just taking away people's due process rights.

34:23So I do think it's changed. But to answer your question, I think there are a lot of folks who are very slow to recognize the real danger to our democracy, to our Constitution and to our country. This show contains information subject to, but not limited to personal takes, rumors, not so accurate stats, and plenty more. What's up, man? This your boy, Nav Green, from the Broken Play Podcast. Look, it's the end of the season. The playoffs are here. But guess what? It ain't the end of your season. You can always tune in with Broken Play Podcast with Nav Green on the Black Effect Podcast Network. Not a team who ain't going to the playoffs.

34:59The Chiefs. Oh, it's a wrap. It's time to rebuild. Who your MVP right now then? Drake May up there. Josh Allen up there still. Oh, my boy, Matthew Stafford. Where the hell both nicks at? He ain't too far behind. He did all this talking. What Matthew Stafford is doing statistically, bro, is crazy. Bro, you know I ain't no Josh Allen fan, but Matthew Stafford got better weapons. Caleb Williams. Hey, he should be in that conversation. In what conversation? MVP? He should be in it. Listen to Broken Play with Nav Green from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcast.

35:34This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather. It was many and many a year ago in a kingdom by the sea. In 1995, my neighbor, Anna Trainor, disappeared from a commune. It was hard to wrap your head around. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So no, I am not your guru. And back then, I lied to my parents. I lied to police. I lied to everybody. There were years, right, where I could not say your name. I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can to try to find out what actually happened.

36:13Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend? They have had this case for 30 years. I'll teach you sons of a** to come around here and my wife. Boom, boom. This is The Red Weather. Listen to The Red Weather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

36:56What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. The guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Played poker with Harry Truman. And had a long affair with a congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock, before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids? The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote.

37:29Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I guess my question is, has that actually changed? There's a possibility of another shutdown fight. And you have some, including, and this part I will need your earpiece to be in for, Senator Chris Murphy, indicating that we should use this opportunity, Democrats should use this opportunity, to force changes at ICE in the wake of what I would call a murder of Renee Good being shot three times by this ICE agent as she's there in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Let's go ahead and take a listen to Senator Chris Murphy make the case.

38:05You're proposing sweeping reforms to DHS from requiring warrants for arrests to banning masks during enforcement to limiting ICE's use of firearms and civil operations. Do any Republicans support your plan? Is it realistic that this could actually passed, Senator? Well, Republicans need Democratic votes in order to pass a budget for the Department of Homeland Security. And what we're talking about, I wouldn't necessarily categorize as sweeping, right? We're simply talking about, you know, essentially going back to the way that ICE was operating when they cared about legality, right? Identification of officers, that's something that has been standard practice in every law enforcement agency all across the country.

38:47CBP, who are supposed to be at the border, protecting us at the border, operating in the interior with no training on how to deal with complex urban environments, that's brand new. So we just need to get back to a Department of Homeland Security that is prioritizing the law and prioritizing keeping people safe. And yes, I think that it's reasonable for Democrats, speaking on behalf of the majority of the American public, who don't approve of what ICE is doing, to say, if you want to fund the Department of Homeland Security, I want to fund the Department of Homeland Security that is operating in a safe and legal manner.

39:19So is it appropriate, do you support using this sort of rare moment of leverage that Democrats have in terms of government funding to force some changes at DHS and with ICE? Yes, I've been very clear. I will not vote for one more penny. I guess we're getting rid of the pennies. One more dollar for the Trump ICE operation. And I hope we will use this moment for that purpose. And this is why the Department of Homeland Security's appropriation bill in the Senate has been so hung up. I mean, we've passed other bills, appropriation bills, out of our committee, but some we've not. And this one is one that I will not support advancing without the kind of reforms that Chris Murphy is talking about.

40:07And what's the end game then? Because it seemed like that's where Democrats kind of fell down last time. that they kind of snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in that shutdown because it felt like they just kind of lost their nerve after the shutdown had gone on so long. So how do you avoid that this time? So we do have a different situation now. We have already moved, for example, three appropriation bills, like for the Department of Agriculture and a couple others. There may be other bills where we were successful at putting up safeguards around the funding. The Commerce Justice Science Bill is one of those where we completely rejected the Trump cuts to science and the National Science Foundation and NASA Goddard and things like that.

40:59So we may have a situation where we pass appropriation bills for certain agencies. But what I'm saying, I think Senator Murphy is saying, is that when it comes to DHS, we will not support any funding for DHS in less than until we see these reforms. And do you know where Senator Schumer is on that? I think he supports reforms at DHS. I can't speak for him with respect to the actual strategy of not supporting that bill at this particular moment. There was a memo that circulated in the kind of D.C. progressive world a month or two ago. I'm curious if you saw it that made the case for Chris Van Hollen for Senate majority leader.

41:42Did you see that memo? I heard about the memo. So actually, no, you know, I did see that memo. I know what you're talking about. All right. So what do you think of that memo? And would you would you run if Democrats took the majority or if they or even if they don't? would you run for minority leader? Is that something you're open to? So it's not something that has been, you know, top of mind for me. And ultimately, you know, this is a question of the Democratic caucus. And if you go back, for example, to your point on the shutdown strategy unraveling, you can see it's not just about one person.

42:23So look, my goal right now is to fight like hell every moment we've got against the Trump administration to work to win the midterm elections in the House and in the Senate. And then I do believe, I'm a strong believer in the fact that we cannot just be the party of no, that we need to put forward a clear agenda for the future that tells the American people we are not the party of the status quo. And that is going to be my main focus. So you say it's a question for the Democratic caucus. Is it also a question for the Democratic base, though? You know, especially at this period in time when you're between president, there's no clear leader of the Democratic Party.

43:06So I think it's sort of an old fashioned way of looking at, you know, Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer's. Oh, they just tend to the business of the House or they just tend to business of the Senate. The Democratic base and the numbers bear this out are very frustrated with Jeffries and specifically with Chuck Schumer. They feel he is failing at the job of standing up to Trump. And I think I agree. And I think you probably agree that they have a pretty strong case that they could make there. So does their frustration matter at all in that calculus as well at a time when they feel like they're losing their country?

43:37Yes. I mean, their frustration definitely counts. It counts in leadership races. It will certainly count going into 2028 when it'll be a referendum within the Democratic Party on the direction that we want to take going forward. I would say that at this point in time, you know, and again, Senator Schumer, I think, is now better reflecting the views of more of the Democrats across the country. That said, and, you know, it became public, so I can talk about it. As you know, the first rule of Fight Club is you don't talk about Fight Club. Until somebody talks about it. So there is a group of us who've expressed frustration, not only about, you know, the direction the caucus taken, but also with respect to how the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee has gotten involved in some of the Democratic primaries.

44:37That's really what sort of triggered a lot of the frustration among this group. You know, I was, you know, I was quite clear how frustrated I was that you didn't have the leadership supporting Mamdani in New York for mayor. What did he say about that? How did he justify not supporting the Democratic nominee for mayor? I can't remember what he has said publicly, but, you know, all I know is the result. Yeah. And, you know, here you have a mayor who ran on the platform of affordability that everybody says we should be focused on. And we should be focused on lowering the cost of living for Americans so people living paycheck to paycheck can actually get by.

45:26And we want to increase the size of their paychecks, too. So that was an example where, you know, if you want to have a big tent Democratic Party, and I do, then you can't say you're not going to endorse, you know, the guy who was the Democratic nominee for mayor. One of the grievances that this, according to the reporting that the Fight Club brought to Senator Schumer, was recruiting Janet Mills when Graham Plattner was already in the race and then clearly backing Haley Stevens, even though they're claimed they're not, whether there's a competitive primary there. Has the Fight Club thought about or talked about endorsing like as a group against the Democratic establishment's candidate?

46:08Like, where are you? Well, let's start with Maine. Like, have you spoken with Graham Plattner? Are you supporting him? And should the Fight Club, like if they're going to fight, like they're going to fight? Right. So, OK, let's let's start with Maine. I've talked to both Janet Mills and Graham Plattner a couple times. My view is that the Democratic primary voters should be the ones who decide on that election. And, you know, we got upset because that is an example where the DSCC did weigh in very strongly on behalf of one of the candidates in the primary. And it was our view and it remains my view that, you know, that's a question for Democratic primary voters.

46:55And the same was true about Michigan, right, with respect to Haley Stevens, that they were weighing in on behalf of her to the exclusion of the other candidates. So our basic message was we need to you, the DSCC, need to stay out of these races. Now, we did make an exception in the case of Minnesota. We together have endorsed Peggy Flanagan, who's the lieutenant gubernatorial candidate there. And that's because we also sense that the DSCC was weighing in on behalf of, in this case, Angie Craig. Right. So then, OK, so if you're weighing in in Minnesota, what will it take to get you into Maine? I don't know.

47:38Or Michigan? I think our main reaction in Maine was that the DSCC went in. So, look, I'm continuing to look at these races. And I don't know. I do think that we're stronger when we can take sort of collective action. And we were able to get a consensus on that when it came to the Minnesota Senate race. Senator, I'm curious why you changed your mind on Medicare for us. I was very happy to see. But I'm just wondering if your views have evolved on where we should be economically and what it's going to require to give working people a shot in this country. Yeah. So the short answer is my view has not changed on that fundamental question.

48:21I mean, I've been very much supportive of getting eventually to Medicare for all. But I had taken the view earlier that, you know, I was one of the people who was for the public option when it came to the Affordable Care Act. And then we didn't get the public option, even though the House had been supportive of it back in the day. And, you know, at some point with Republicans continuing to try to just attack, attack, attack the Affordable Care Act from every angle and just looking at the health care system overall and the amount of money that we spend on overhead and administration and bureaucracy and insurance companies, I just reached the conclusion that we didn't we should move now.

49:06Right. And that's and so I supported the bill. I had supported the idea of getting to Medicare for all. Yeah. Always. But what I said was this bill is the way to do it over a four-year period. This is Bernie Sanders' bill. And I've also long supported adding to Medicare coverage, you know, dental, vision, and hearing. I think we should move forward on that now. But, you know, I would say that looking at our health care system, we spend, as you know, about 18 percent of our gross national product on health care. And we are definitely not getting our money's worth in terms of the public health. And so my view is that we should move now.

49:48And I think that bill lays out the right roadmap and not try to go through a public option for the Affordable Care Act and even an even more incremental approach. I think we should just pass the bill and do it. We talked about Senate leader, but you've also been talked about as potential presidential candidate. I mean, first, would you see any pushback from being born in Pakistan? Is there any argument that, hey, you can't do that? Or do you get the John McCain exception there? You know, in the Senate, they say everybody, all senators wake up in the morning, look in the mirror and see a future president.

50:22Do you see that? Or where are you on that question? So my big focus right now beyond the midterms is really coming up with what I think the Democrats should stand for. It kind of goes to your point. When you asked about Medicare, you also said, you know, how about, you know, working people around the country? And I've long believed that's the fundamental crisis that we're facing in America, which is the inequality of wealth and power in the country. So this is why I'm going to continue to I've been proposing major tax proposals and we'll be reintroducing another one soon, which essentially, you know, addresses the problem we've got, which is we have a tax system that's rigged to favor people who make money off of money as opposed to people who make money off of hard work.

51:15I also support incentivizing employee ownership of companies. And then I think we should make sure that on the cost side, for example, that these huge, these AI companies, the richest on the planet, you know, aren't essentially free riding off of rate payers when it comes to the additional electricity that needs to be generated and the costs of all of that. So what I'm saying is that is my focus right now. I don't know what the Democratic field will look like. Got any trips to Iowa? I am. South Carolina coming up? Well, I did get invited to go out. I was at the Iowa Steak Fry, Polk County Steak Fry.

51:53There you go. We had a back and forth with another candidate about, you know, anyway. I was, they asked me to come out, especially after the Kilmar Brigo Garcia situation. And I did give a speech out there laying out what I think the Democratic Party needs to focus on beyond taking on Trump, which we need to do every single day to protect our democracy. We do need to, you know, I think that we've been much too tied to special interests. Yes. And corporate special interests. And so my view is the best way to regain some of the confidence of the American people is to show that we want to break with the status quo.

52:36I mean, it just blows my mind that Donald Trump was the guy who said he was going to change, you know, Washington. And people thought that that might be changing in a good way. They just wanted they wanted change. Yeah. Now, I think, you know, people are seeing, I mean, including on the immigration front. But but the fact that Trump is not focused on bringing down costs or anything like that, they're they don't like what they see. but I intend to be front and center in this debate. This is Ryder Strong, and I have a new podcast called The Red Weather. It was many and many a year ago in a kingdom by the sea.

53:17In 1995, my neighbor, Anna Trainor, disappeared from a commune. It was hard to wrap your head around. It was nature and trees and praying and drugs. So no, I am not your guru. And back then, I lied to my parents, I lied to police, I lied to everybody. There were years right where I could not say your name. I've decided to go back to my hometown in Northern California, interview my friends, family, talk to police, journalists, whomever I can, to try to find out what actually happened. Isn't it a little bit weird that they obsess over hippies in the woods and not the obvious boyfriend? They have had this case for 30 years.

53:54I'll teach you sons of a bitch to come around here and my wife. Boom, boom. This is The Red Weather. Listen to The Red Weather on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This show contains information subject to but not limited to personal takes, rumors, not so accurate stats, and plenty more. What's up, man? This your boy, Nav Green from the Broken Play Podcast. Look, it's the end of the season. The playoffs are here. But guess what? It ain't the end of your season. You can always tune in with Broken Play Podcast with Nav Green on the Black Effect Podcast Network.

54:31Not a team who ain't going to the playoff. The Chiefs. Oh, it's a wrap. It's time to rebuild. Who your MVP right now then? Drake May up there. Josh Allen up there still. Oh, my boy, Matthew Stafford. Where the hell both nicks at? He ain't too far behind. He did all this talking. What Matthew Stafford is doing statistically, bro, is crazy. Bro, you know I ain't no Josh Allen fan. but Matthew Stout forgot better weapon. Caleb Williams. Hey, he should be in that conversation. In what conversation? MVP. He should be in it. Listen to Broken Play with Nav Green from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or whatever you get your podcast.

55:09You know Roald Dahl, the writer who thought up Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy? Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Our new podcast series, The Secret World of Roald Dahl, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary, controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans. What? And he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, the guy was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's, played poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a congresswoman?

55:45And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney and Alfred Hitchcock before writing a hit James Bond film, How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever? And what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids? The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. How do you rein in these tech oligarchs? And you mentioned the concern about electricity rates. That's one thing. There are also deep concerns about AI and taking jobs.

56:21There are existential concerns about AI and destroying human civilization. Like, how are you thinking about that constellation of issues and specifically on the question of how you rein in, you know, these would be trillionaires who want to basically operate in a completely unregulated environment and be able to do whatever they want, whenever they want? So I agree with your analysis. I think we're in a really difficult place because you have the richest people on the planet and they're getting richer. And with that comes a lot of power and they're using their power. I mean, we see this with Elon Musk.

56:57Obviously, you know, Trump made him the head of Doge. We also see this with the concentration of media power in traditional media, which is why I do encourage everybody to watch independent media channels. I agree. Appreciate that. Like and subscribe. But I don't have, I will tell you, I don't have an easy answer to your question. I've been a longtime supporter of, you know, significant campaign finance reform. You know, we obviously want to roll back Citizens United, but you know how hard that is. Right. Because the Supreme Court decision. I, the original author of the Disclose Act that we got past the House of Representatives when I was back in the House, It failed by one vote in the Senate on a filibuster.

57:44So I believe in campaign finance reform, and we need to fight like that. And whoever's, you know, the Democratic candidate for president or even, you know, Congress should be fighting for those things. But I'm open to people's ideas on how you rein in the AI companies. We never were successful at getting a sort of a oversight when it came to the social media. universe and there are obviously all sorts of important questions around First Amendment and all those sort of things but in terms of the concentration of power in AI you know again I have a tax approach to that yeah but in terms of reigning them in that is something that I believe we need to do I agree with your analysis yeah I'm open to any ideas people have is the best approach Your colleague, Elizabeth Warren, another Fight Club member, I believe, giving a speech today at the National Press Club in which she's really taking aim at the abundance argument and making the case generally, I haven't read the entire speech, that abundance in some ways is a stalking horse for old school deregulatory hands off.

59:01Just let the oligarchs rule the roost and things will happen. Um, and she's coming directly at that and saying, no, like we actually need, um, to get these people under control so that we can really unleash all of the American people, not just the oligarchs. Uh, where are you on this abundance conversation within the democratic party? Yeah. So I, I really don't think it's either or on a, on abundance versus, you know, going after. Momdani stole the word. What's that? Momdani stole the word. He called himself. He's an, he's an abundance guy. Some of his first executive words. Yeah, but look, I mean, I think we can acknowledge that, you know, we need to build more housing stock.

59:42We need more affordable housing and that there are many cases where especially local regulations are an impediment to that. What can the federal government do to incentivize changes? I mean, there are limited levers at the federal level. It is also true, obviously, that some of these transportation projects take way too long. So I think there is merit to that argument. That doesn't mean that we should not also be focused on, you know, making sure that we break up monopolies because, you know, monopolies obviously undermine the whole idea of, you know, for those people who believe in free markets, you should be anti-monopoly, obviously.

1:00:25So I think it's not, I really don't think it's either or when it comes to abundance versus the sort of anti-monopoly, anti-trust approach. So you talked some about accountability, electoral accountability for Democrats who close their eyes to human rights abuses in Gaza and fail to stand up to President Trump. Do you think there should be criminal accountability for members of this administration under a future, you know, if you or someone else were to run for president? Should charges be brought against people who committed crimes in the context of this regime? I think people need to be held accountable under the law.

1:01:02And so to the extent that there are people engaged in criminal violations of the law, then they need to be held accountable. Does part of that accountability, we talked earlier about Renee Good and about Kilmar Abrego Garcia, and ICE is sort of the tip of the spear of this lawless administration. Do you support abolishing ICE? There's some 69 percent of the Democratic base that has come to that position at this point. Well, let's put it this way. I support abolishing Trump's ICE. In other words, this kind of operation that's going on right now needs to come to an end and it needs to come to an end now.

1:01:41So I support reigning in ice. I think ice has an appropriate function when it is when it is conducted and operated in You know in in the way that was I think originally envisioned, but I think Trump is sort of Put ice on steroids and this is why as we discussed earlier, I'm in favor of You know making sure we don't provide any funding for Trump's ongoing ice operation Let me push a little bit on that because this is not like an ancient, this is not a Jeffersonian agency. Like you were literally in Congress when this was created, right? I think it was 2003, like when they reorganized Homeland Security.

1:02:22In 2019, we covered, and I think ProPublica did too, when AOC and I think it was Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar went down to the border. there was a report, there were multiple reports about this ICE Facebook group that had hundreds, if not thousands, of ICE agents and commanders, like this is top to bottom, where they were threatening violence against AOC and these other members of Congress who were coming to the border. Their job was they're supposed to protect these members of Congress. There was also all of this over-the-top sexual harassment and sexualization of these members going on. You read through these, and this is basically public.

1:03:08It was a private group, but when you're in the thousands, it's basically public on Facebook. You read through those, and you get a window into a rogue agency, which is how I saw it at the time. So this is Trump's ice, but it's 2019, like we're now many years deeper into Trump's ice. It already, to me, felt rogue, like outside of democratic control, that it was its own thing. And I think predictably, we're now getting the kind of expressions of that. If an agency is that far gone, why not reorganize it and take the parts that we need, you know, that the government needs to carry out and give them to agencies that are under the control of the federal government?

1:04:01So clearly we have a problem with the culture of ICE right now under the Trump administration. And we had that in the first Trump administration as well. I, there may have been abuses in ICE under Obama, under Biden. I have to go back and look at that. So look, the question is the function, right? Not the name. And so I do believe that that function requires dramatic reform. I mean, if you look at some of the recruitment that's going on right now, if you look at the black standards in terms of training, we are seeing huge abuses. So look, I don't really care what you call it, but the function is something that I think needs to be maintained in the sense that there has to be some agency that is responsible.

1:04:55For example, when somebody is here who is undocumented, someone who's here illegally, and they commit a violent crime, there has to be somebody in the federal government that addresses that. And that's currently ICE. So it was before ice. But so but again, the function, I think when people say they want to get rid of ice, right, it's sometimes people may interpret it as getting rid of that function. You know, again, my view is we shouldn't be funding Trump's ice operations. How scared do you think we are when you look at the lawlessness, when you look at the mascot foreign policy, when you look, I mean, I've watched ice agents pepper spray a baby, assault random people, illegally arrest American citizens, and now shoot Renee Good three times in the face.

1:05:45How do we put any of this back together given how far we've gone? Is it too late? Or do you think that we can sort of come back from this moment of rising fascism and lawlessness in this country and abroad? So I do believe we can come back. I think there's been a huge amount of damage. I think it's going to require a lot of repair, both in terms of, you know, here at home, as well as, you know, our foreign policy. But I do believe ultimately that the American people don't like what they're seeing with respect to what Trump's doing, including his ICE operations. And I think that you will see changes in the midterm elections.

1:06:30Now, you know, given the fact that you have a rogue president who doesn't care about the Constitution, that will remain a big, big challenge until 2028. But look, lots of damage done. Do I think it's irreversible? No. But I think that depends on all of us. I mean, I really do think the answer to your question depends on what the American people are doing. And what's been so heartwarming about this even terrible moment is to listen to the whistle brigades out in Minneapolis, the neighbors coming out to defend their neighbors. Seven million Americans going out on no King's Day. I mean, in Maryland, I went all over the state.

1:07:13It was heartwarming to see thousands of Marylanders coming out to resist the tyranny of the Trump administration. So I do think that we have good, strong antibodies to protect our democracy. They are being threatened as never before. But I do have faith at the end that if we all step up and step out, we will be successful. After all, what Trump wants most of all is for everybody to shut up and go away. I mean, that is what they want. That's why they threatened people. That's why they locked up, you know, students for expressing their First Amendment views early in the administration. That was Secretary Rubio and others.

1:07:49we need to push back really hard every day. And last one for me. So should we end weapon sales to Israel? I think in this moment, I would, I oppose transferring offensive weapons to Israel. I've not imposed sending some defensive weapons. What are defensive weapons? Iron dome defense systems that are used only to intercept incoming missiles. But I think at this moment in time, we need to, at the very least, pause transfers of offensive weapons, which is why I've continued to vote on each of the votes we've had in the Senate to not allow the transfers of more offensive weapons, so long as Israel is violating international law and American law.

1:08:37Do you think that that distinction really makes sense? I mean, if you're shipping weapons, you're shipping weapons. And I think there's a pretty clear argument that supplying Iron Dome, for example, is part of what allows Israel to operate with such impunity in the region. I've supported Iron Dome because there are other, you know, this is not only Gaza. Israel obviously is in a tough neighborhood. And of course, they are actually... They frequently bomb their neighbors. They also... It's going to make it a tough neighborhood. And there's no doubt. I mean, I think the Netanyahu government has been really bad for Israel and the United States.

1:09:16We should be doing much more than we are, obviously, to rein in what the Netanyahu government is doing. But I do think there's an important distinction between providing defensive weapons and offensive weapons. All right. Senator Chris Van Hollen, thank you so much for spending so much time with us. We really appreciate it. Thank you. Good to be with both of you. All right, guys, that does it for us. I will be in with Sagar tomorrow, so we will see you then.

1:10:06podcast, The Secret World of Roald Dahl. I'll tell you that story and much, much more. What? You probably won't believe it either. Was this before he wrote his stories? It must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, I was a spy. Listen to The Secret World of Roald Dahl on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. On the Adventures of Curiosity Cove podcast, what if there's more to the story than we've been told? This Black History Month, Adventures of Curiosity Cove invites families into a playful mystery that blends history, science, and imagination.

1:10:47As Ella and her friends investigate a missing peanut butter case, they uncover the legacy of a brilliant innovator. George Washington Carver? And learn how curiosity fuels creativity. In this Black History Month adventure, Adventures of Curiosity Cove shows kids that asking questions, thinking creatively, and imagining what's possible can lead to amazing discoveries. Because history isn't boring. It's full of surprises. At Curiosity Cove. Listen to Adventures of Curiosity Cove every Monday from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:11:29This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.