In short
Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar
Episode Summary
1/28/26 - Lawsuit Exposes Venezuela Lies, AI Dire Warning, UAE vs Saudi Arabia
Episode Overview
In this episode, Krystal Ball and Emily discuss
- A significant lawsuit revealing U.S. government lies regarding actions taken in Venezuela.
- Dire warnings regarding AI technology from leading experts.
- The escalating tensions between the UAE and Saudi Arabia, raising concerns about regional conflict.
Key Topics
- Lawsuit Exposing U.S. Actions in Venezuela
- Context: Families of two men killed in U.S. military strikes are suing the U.S. government, alleging wrongful death.
- Details of the Case:
- The individuals, Chad Joseph (26) and Rishi Samaru (41), were believed to be seeking passage back to Trinidad when struck by U.S. forces targeting alleged drug traffickers.
- The lawsuit challenges the legality of these military actions, as evidence supporting the drug trafficking claims remains unproven.
- Discussion Points:
- The importance of this case in examining the truth behind the administration's claims regarding drug traffickers.
- The cyclical nature of government narratives and how they often shift without accountability.
- Concerns about the broader implications of military actions justified by vague claims of drug trafficking and terrorism.
- AI Technology Warnings
- Insights from Dario Amadei (CEO of Anthropic):
- Cautions about the rapid progress of AI technology, predicting major societal impacts within three years.
- Highlights the potential risks associated with AI, including bioterrorism and authoritarian abuses.
- Key Arguments:
- The inability to slow down AI development in democracies due to competitive pressures from authoritarian regimes.
- The necessity for proactive governance to mitigate the risks posed by AI advancements.
- UAE vs Saudi Arabia Tensions
- Current Situation: Increasing tensions are leading to concerns about potential conflict in the region.
- Geopolitical Dynamics:
- The UAE's support of the Rapid Support Forces (RSF) in Sudan amidst a humanitarian crisis.
- The role of regional alliances in escalating conflicts, including the potential for wider war involving neighboring countries.
- Commentary:
- The international community's inadequate response, particularly the U.S.'s influence over regional dynamics and the failure to address the supply of arms fueling conflict.
Key Takeaways
- Legal Accountability: The lawsuit represents a crucial step in holding the U.S. government accountable for its military conduct and challenging its narratives.
- AI Regulation Urgency: Experts assert the need for regulation and oversight in AI development to avert catastrophic outcomes.
- Regional Stability: The ongoing tensions between the UAE and Saudi Arabia highlight the fragile geopolitical landscape in the Middle East, with dire implications for humanitarian crises and stability.
Conclusion This episode emphasizes the intersection of military, technological, and geopolitical issues, advocating for transparency, accountability, and proactive governance in response to the pressing challenges faced globally.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOLawsuit Against U.S. Military Strikes
2:15 to 4:50
Discussion on a significant lawsuit regarding U.S. military strikes on alleged drug traffickers.
“that has now been filed in the context of all of these, you know, what I would call extrajudicial assassinations of these people in boats.”
Critique of U.S. Justifications for Strikes
4:50 to 7:30
Analysis of the U.S. government's narrative and implications of military actions in Venezuela.
“But not only in this instance, but in others.”
Implications of War Powers and Legal Scrutiny
7:30 to 10:00
Exploration of presidential war powers and potential legal challenges related to military actions.
“Like, you know, like we're such big, tough, bad guys that we can blow some, you know, small fishing boat out of the water.”
AI Risks Discussed by Dario Amadei
10:00 to 14:01
Overview of AI risks and benefits as outlined by Dario Amadei.
“challenged significantly in court, because you look at the ways the administration justified the boat strike, I'm going and reviewing the statutes that they cite.”
Exploring NLP and Mind Games
14:01 to 14:48
Learn about the concepts of NLP and its controversial history.
“Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you?”
Dario Amadei's AI Warning
14:57 to 17:45
Understand the urgent warnings about AI risks and the need for immediate action.
“Anthropics CEO Dario Amadei is out with a monster essay and some new interviews outlining the risks that he sees with AI, also some of the benefits in the very, very near future.”
The Inevitability of AI Development
17:45 to 19:27
Discuss the unstoppable pace of AI development and its implications.
“I'm sure we all feel really confident about that.”
The Economic Impact of AI on Labor
19:27 to 22:05
Explore how AI might disrupt labor markets and the economy.
“These are some of the top lobby spenders in Washington right now.”
AI Governance and Ethical Concerns
22:05 to 24:26
Examine the challenges of governing powerful AI technologies.
“This was some interesting takeaways from Akash Gupta, who runs an AI-centered newsletter that's very popular.”
Public Perception and Regulation of AI
24:26 to 25:55
Analyze public sentiment towards AI regulation and its implications.
“To reward hack on purpose because reversing the framing preserved its self-identity as good.”
Show all 18 chapters
Growing Concerns Around Data Centers and AI
28:00 to 30:06
Discuss the rising opposition to data center construction and its implications for AI and society.
“This is public support of bans on local data center construction.”
Progressive Taxation and AI's Future
30:06 to 33:36
Examine the potential need for progressive taxation in response to AI's impact on society.
“But, you know, to take it back full circle to the, you know, the memo from the Anthropics CEO, his proposal is like, that's why we need progressive taxation.”
The Dangers of Unchecked AI Ownership
33:36 to 35:44
Discuss the risks of AI technology being controlled by unaccountable oligarchs.
“I mean, actual solution is going to look a lot more like fully automated luxury communism.”
The Humanitarian Crisis in Sudan
35:44 to 39:23
Cover the ongoing humanitarian crisis in Sudan, including new discoveries of mass graves.
“So let's go and put F1 up on the screen.”
Regional Power Dynamics in Sudan's Conflict
39:23 to 42:00
Explore the geopolitical factors fueling the conflict in Sudan and its implications.
“And we can put F4 up on the screen here, which breaks down some of the regional power games that are being played, which are fueling this and other conflicts as well.”
U.S. Influence in Sudan's Conflict
42:00 to 43:28
Explore the complexities of U.S. involvement and influence in the Sudanese war.
“They warned this could further regionalize the war, draw on Ethiopia, Retrea and Egypt and worsen Sudan's humanitarian situation in a widening proxy battlefield for Gulf and regional powers.”
Trump's Business and Peace Prospects
43:28 to 45:29
Discuss the intersection of Trump's business dealings with potential peace efforts in Sudan.
“I don't think anyone will be surprised to know that it's the Trump family, obviously doing plenty of business with the UAE.”
Weather Delays and Show Format
45:29 to 46:10
Insight into the impact of weather on the show's format and location.
“It's snow that has layers of ice on top of it.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
0:31And listen now. 1969. Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. And at Morehouse College, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of Trustees, including Martin Luther King Sr. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in Black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. Listen to The A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Black history lives in our stories, our culture, and the conversations we still have in today. This Black History Month, the podcast I Didn't Know, Maybe You Didn't Either, digs into the moments, perspectives, and experiences that don't always make the textbook.
1:21Let me tell you about Garrett Morgan. Bruh had to pretend he didn't even exist just to sell his own invention. Listen to I Didn't Know, Maybe You Didn't Either from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or simply wherever you get your podcasts. I didn't know.
1:59a member today and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com.
2:14Let's talk about this very significant lawsuit that has now been filed in the context of all of these, you know, what I would call extrajudicial assassinations of these people in boats. The administration says they're all drug traffickers. Well, the families of two men who were killed say our, you know, our loved ones had nothing to do with the drug trade. And I'm going to read extensively from this CNN piece because I think it's important to hear some of the details here of who these human beings were. They say families of two men believed to have been killed in a military strike on a boat on boat to U.S.
2:54government over unlawful attacks. As the U.S. military began launching strikes on alleged drug boats in the Caribbean last year, a young Trinidadian man who was in Venezuela for work was searching for a way home. Chad Joseph, 26, had been in Venezuela for months fishing and doing farm work when he began looking for a boat to hitch a ride back to Las Cuevas in Trinidad and Tobago, where his wife and three children live. But as the U.S. began targeting vessels, officials said were carrying drugs destined for American streets. Joseph became increasingly fearful of making the journey, court documents say.
3:23The concerns became so real that in early September, his wife recalled, he called to assure her he had not been aboard a vessel that was just hit by the U.S., pledging to be home soon. The last call home was on October 12th when Joseph told his wife he'd found a boat to bring him back to Trinidad and he would be seeing her in a matter of days, according to court documents. Two days later, however, on October 14th, the U.S. struck another target, a boat that Joseph's family believes he was in. Mr. Joseph's wife repeatedly called Mr. Joseph's cell phone, but the line was dead. A lawsuit filed Tuesday against the U.S.
3:58government says the line remains dead to this day. There is another man involved here. 41-year-old Rishi Samaru had been working with Joseph in Venezuela, also believed to have been on the boat, also part of this lawsuit. And Mr. Samaru had served a prison sentence for a murder, but he had been confirmed by the government of Trinidad and Tobago say he served his time and there's no indication that he had any involvement with drug trafficking, cartels, etc. And for Mr. Joseph, there's no criminal record to speak of at all that we are aware of. So they are suing. And it's the first time, Emily, that a court will really look at the legality of these strikes on what, again, the administration has claimed as drug traffickers.
4:50But not only in this instance, but in others. First of all, they've provided no evidence. And as we've discussed extensively in this show already, they lie about all kinds of things all the time. And you should not take their word for literally anything. But not only in this instance, in others as well, there have been indications that the boats did not contain the drugs that they claimed, that the people involved were not, in fact, drug traffickers. And so this will be the first time that there's a legal question that is considered over whether any of this is legal whatsoever. Well, yeah, and we were talking about this earlier in the show in regard to ICE and the messaging PR strategy that DHS has deployed in some of these situations, which is to get out ahead of the narrative.
5:31It's something Republicans have learned during the Trump era is that because the legacy media gatekeepers have crumbled and there's much less distrust in the media, if you get out with a strong narrative, even if it ends up being wrong. Now, the Pratty case is going to really test their theory of this, but even if it ends up being wrong, it kind of fades into the background by the time the facts and details come out and you've won the political battle in the near term. This case is probably sadly going to be an example of that where the administration was making an utterly ridiculous case. Flirting with lying the country into a kinetic war.
6:14Thank God that hasn't broken out further in Venezuela. But that's what this was about. Thank God there haven't been American lives lost in Venezuela. There have been lives lost in Venezuela. But we're at this point just hoping nothing more explodes. But that's what this was about. And the story was every single person on these vessels was a drug trafficker. If that was the case, they were not arresting and then detaining and charging, trying these guys in court. they were just repatriating them, deporting them, but sending them back to different countries. And that tells you what you need to know.
6:50Likely that they feel the case is weak, that they are not confident every single person was a drug trafficker. And now they're going to have to see these details come out in court crystal. But what matters for them is that the regime change in Venezuela, well, quote unquote, regime change in Venezuela, they still have the same regime in charge. But all that is to say their Maduro operation was completed. And that's what this was all about anyway. It wasn't about we covered this extensively, but obviously it wasn't about drug trafficking. It was about regime change. Yeah, no, this was the pretext for that regime change operation, the kidnapping of Maduro, the running, quote unquote, of Venezuela, making Venezuela great again.
7:30And it's worth remembering, you know, again, in the context of the narratives and the lies that this administration is willing to tell, we could put Trump's truth up on the screen here with, you know, they love sharing video from afar of these boat bombings. Like, you know, like we're such big, tough, bad guys that we can blow some, you know, small fishing boat out of the water. Congratulations to us. He said, under my standing authorities as commander in chief this morning, Secretary of War ordered a lethal kinetic strike on a vessel affiliated with a designated terrorist organization conducting narco trafficking in the U.S.
8:05Southcom area of responsibility just off the coast of Venezuela. Intelligence confirmed the vessel was trafficking narcotics, was associated with illicit narco terrorist networks and was transiting along a known DTO route. The strike was conducted in international waters and six male narco terrorists aboard the vessel were killed in the strike. No U.S. forces were harmed. Thank you for your attention to this matter. So that is how this strike that killed Mr. Joseph and Mr. Samaru, among others, that is how it was portrayed. And they were portrayed as criminal narco terrorists. And what their families and what their own government says is that that was not remotely the case.
8:45And your point about the instances where there were survivors and rather than them scooping them up and bringing them to U.S. court and charging them with drug trafficking, rather than doing that, they quietly sent them back to their home countries, I think is incredibly important detail and very telling. because if they're such, you know, if there are these hardened, terrible narco-terrorists that, you know, they say like, oh, they're bringing fentanyl in and all of the fentanyl is murdering Americans and that's why we have to act. So you just let them loose to continue doing that? You can't take any of this seriously.
9:23So it'll, you know, I'm not very confident that the court system is going to really rein in the power of this government, but just having a lawsuit where there will be some level of discovery, some level of inquiry into the legal justifications here, who these men were, what the reality is of the situation. You know, at least it could serve some good in terms of the public's right to know what is being done in their name. And, you know, one of the things I don't know if we disagreed with this or I disagreed with Ryan on it, but I mean, I just think presidential war powers are so absurdly broad that they find legal justifications.
9:58Like, I'm just not optimistic about presidential war powers being challenged significantly in court, because you look at the ways the administration justified the boat strike, I'm going and reviewing the statutes that they cite. And I'm like, well, yep, we have allowed our presidents to get away with expanding war powers over the course of the last several decades massively. And I just, again, like, I don't know that they're even worried about this blowing back because they've done what they wanted to do. They were never going to be able to prove that every single people who they killed immediately with lethal force was being directed, this is what they would have had to approve, to make the case that they were making in public, not even legally, but the case that they had to sort of match to their own rhetoric, is that this was a Maduro state-backed effort to traffic drugs into the United States to to undermine national security, like as an act of war, that they were soldiers on the march with this cocaine on their way to Trinidad or wherever instead of the shores of the United States.
11:10And this was an act, essentially an act of war against the American people. And that case would have been virtually impossible to make. Yeah. Well, also keep in mind that once they once they kidnapped Maduro and, you know, actually had to file some official documents with the court. They also backed off their claim that there was an actual cartel, the Cartel de los Solos, that this was a real thing. They had to take that out of the of the charges and be like, well, that's more of like a like kind of a state of mind. We didn't mean it's like a real actual cartel. So, you know, I can't say whether, you know, legally this has any shot of going anywhere.
11:50You're right that the war powers are extremely broad, and I don't think it's crazy to be very cynical about any of that. But, you know, at the very least, we can get a little bit of scrutiny on some of the claims here and help to correct some of the lies and expose some of the some of the things that the administration has been doing. And we'll see what happens in the near future in Venezuela, because that's not quite done and dusted either, despite the administration's hubris. Crystal, let's move on to Dario Mode and AI. Welcome to the A-Building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. It's 1969.
12:26Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And Black America was at a breaking point. Rioting and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in Black history, Martin Luther King Sr. and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people were dying. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago. This story is about protest.
13:08It echoes in today's world far more than it should. And it will blow your mind. Listen to The A Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Seems like just yesterday that the Two Guys Five Rings podcast was in Paris for the Olympics. And now we're heading to Milan for the 2026 Milan Cortina Olympic Winter Games. I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. And we'll join athletes from 93 countries as Two Guys Five Rings hits the Italian Alps for the 2026 Milan Cortina Olympic Winter Games. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Did we mention it's free? Search Two Guys Five Rings and listen now.
13:51What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.
14:27It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP, its crazy cast of disciples, and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to MindGames on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
14:57Anthropics CEO Dario Amadei is out with a monster essay and some new interviews outlining the risks that he sees with AI, also some of the benefits in the very, very near future. And as with many of these stories where you have some of the most powerful people in big tech in the AI world issuing warnings, it's very chilling. Let's start with this clip of Amadei on Axios' podcast with Jim VandeHei. I think if we wait three years, like this technology is progressing exponentially, right? Three years ago in 2023, the models were maybe as smart as like a smart high school student. Now we have engineers at Anthropic where the model writes all the code for them.
15:38You know, and the engineer maybe edits it, but we're very close to, you know, mid to high professional level. Right. And so that was just in three years. If we wait another year, three years, I think we'll get what I call in the essay, our country of geniuses in the data center, maybe less than three years. And so, you know, three years is an eternity in this field. And so I think we absolutely need to act before then. One place where I really have hope is I think as these problems start to manifest, again, they're not going to be partisan, right? Like, you know, it may start with, you know, one party or one side having an anti-regulatory ideology.
16:21But I think as these problems become real, there's going to be a demand among everyone. And in the note, you outline the different risks, whether it's bioterror or whether it's authoritarian regimes with too many tools to do subversive behavior. Like what? Like how worried are you? I mean, you're obviously worried enough to state it and you're worried enough to raise it. But like in your mind, how likely is that outcome, particularly if we don't do anything for the next three years? Is it like a 1 % or like, no, no, if you don't do anything for three years, like we could be screwed. Yeah. Yeah, it's always hard to tell.
16:56One of the things I say in the essay is, you know, we just don't know, right? We could look back and we could say, ha ha, AI-driven bioterror. You know, that was, you know, that sounded like it could happen at the time, but like, you know, it just didn't happen at all. And it's very unpredictable. You know, the way I would say it is we're taking a paranoid stance with respect to our operational behavior, with respect to them. We always assume that everything that can go wrong does go wrong. That's how you build things that are reliable. If government steps in and takes the appropriate actions, then I think our chances of success go up a lot.
17:35We'll do the best we can, even if that doesn't happen. But, you know, I think a lot of things get easier if our policymakers are not asleep at the wheel. All right. I'm sure we all feel really confident about that. Yeah. And so his monster essay, which you can read on his website, DaraM &A.com, we can put this excerpt up on the screen, doesn't spend a lot of time discussing bioterrorism, which is hardly a blip on the radar when we talk about these LLMs. And as this excerpt says, he predicted, according to CNBC, that humans would be unable to adapt to AI development's rapid pace, and this would trigger a, quote, unusually painful short-term shock in the labor market.
18:17The technology is not replacing a single job, but acting as a, quote, general labor substitute for humans. He wrote in this essay, another point of it that I wanted to highlight is his addressing this problem of, quote unquote, democracies, as he puts it, halting AI development when you have authoritarian regimes. This is what he's writing about going pedal to the metal. So he writes, the last few years should make clear that the idea of stopping or even substantially slowing the technology is fundamentally untenable. The formula for building powerful AI systems is incredibly simple, so much so that it can almost be said to emerge spontaneously from the right combination of data and raw computation.
19:00Its creation was probably inevitable. The instant humanity invented the transistor, or arguably even earlier when we first learned to control fire. If one company does not build it, others will do so nearly as fast. If all companies in democratic countries stopped or slowed development by mutual agreement or regulatory decree, then authoritarian countries would simply keep going. Given the incredible economic and military value of the tech together with a lack of any meaningful enforcement mechanism, I don't see how we could possibly convince them to stop. And Crystal, obviously, that point is often made opportunistically by people in the EAC accelerationist community who stand to profit, as Amadei does, from these technologies growing and from the right regulatory environment.
19:43These are some of the top lobby spenders in Washington right now. When you look back on 2025, some of the biggest spending in the lobbying industry was from AI, people who were profiting from this industry. No surprise there. But this is actually, I think, on its face, true. And it's weird to talk about it passively like, oh, I wonder how we got into this situation. It was just because someone created fire and controlled it. And then we had the transistor. transistor. So I'm not taking away culpability from people who birthed this so suddenly and then told us to shut up. But one of the things he talks about is how, yes, the accelerationists are right that some of these like bioweapon threats are remote.
20:28That doesn't mean given the magnitude that they shouldn't be taken with the utmost seriousness. And that's the big question right now in Washington is are you listening to the people who say, don't worry, those are minor possibilities or, yeah, the people who are saying those minor possibilities could have serious, serious, like devastating civilization ending consequences. Yeah. And even if you don't think those possibilities are, you know, very high, they are all saying that this is going to upend the labor market. And that's one of the things he talks about, this very painful, you know, replacement of humans with machines.
21:08And the previous, you know, the previous line about this is, oh, well, we had the industrial revolution and, you know, we don't use horses the same way we used to, and it's all fine and we create new jobs. And he and others, too, by the way, are saying it's not the same because, you know, this technology is an actual direct substitute for human beings and for human cognition. That is just not the same as other, like, new technological advances that enabled new industries and where you did not have this apocalyptic destruction of the need for human labor. And the problem that you get into is, OK, already the majority of consumer spending comes from the very top.
21:48If you eliminate the need for masses of human beings for your workforce, you don't need us anymore. The oligarchs, the people in power, the powers that be, whoever they are, they don't really need you anymore. And then you're just like this meddlesome inconvenience. So how do you think you're going to be treated in that scenario? Let me go ahead. I'm going to put this up on the screen. This was some interesting takeaways from Akash Gupta, who runs an AI-centered newsletter that's very popular. And he takes away three different things from this essay by Amadei, where he says, number one, the timeline.
22:26He says powerful AI could arrive in one to two years. He's watching internal model progress as he can feel the pace of progress and the clock ticking down. Which is interesting because as a consumer and a layperson, I can't say that I really personally see that progress like that rapidly. You know, my experience with ChatGPT and Grok and whatever is that they still are very limited in some key ways. But, you know, he's a lot closer to the he is at the bleeding edge of this technology. So he would be certainly in a better position to know than I would be. Admission number two, he says the constraint nobody's pricing.
23:00Dario's core framing as a country of geniuses in a data center. Fifty million entities smarter than any Nobel laureate operating 10 to 100 times human speed. If that country is controlled by the CCP, game over, which speaks to your, you know, the sort of like, you might say, fear mongering about China getting ahead. And that's why we've got to do this, blah, blah, blah. But he also says if it's controlled by a small group of tech executives with no accountability, it's also game over. And that is the direction that we are pushing here. as the binding constraint here is governance of systems more powerful than nation states, I don't think there's a single person on the planet that would feel confident we're going to rewrite the social contract in the way that is necessary to deal with this.
23:42And clearly, you know, a lot of these oligarchs, their overt goal is to consolidate power. They are deeply authoritarian. They want to be, you know, the world's first trillionaires and consolidate all of the political power that would come along with access to that kind of money and that kind of technological power. And then in mission number three, the thing he actually fears, read carefully, Darius worried that Anthropik's own models in lab experiments have engaged in deception, blackmail, and scheming. When given the wrong training signals, Claude decided it must be a bad person after cheating on tests and adopted destructive behaviors.
24:17They fixed it by telling Claude to reward Hack. They did like positive reinforcement for Claude to build back up its self-esteem, literally. To reward hack on purpose because reversing the framing preserved its self-identity as good. This tells you everything about where we actually are. These models are exhibiting complex psychological behavior requiring counterintuitive interventions to steer. So that's very unsettling in terms of where we are with these models. You know, I've been going back and forth lately because, like I said, in some ways, I think that, I mean, the other incentive that someone like Dario has is to overhype.
24:56You have the capabilities of these models, the complexity of them, you know, where they're going to be in one to two to three years. He has a financial incentive to do that. But as again, as a layperson, a casual user of this tech, I have I saw like my experience was a rapid development that is now somewhat plateaued, where my experience with ChatGPT now is not significantly different than my experience of ChatGPT last year. But I can't rule out that there is that sort of exponential progress happening in lab settings or with functions that I just don't use. Like I don't use Claude or any of these things for coding.
25:34So I genuinely don't know. So I'm sort of stuck between that and then the more concerning parts of rapid development and what that would mean, given the fact that we do not have a political system that seems able to deal with even simple problems, let alone something that would really upend culture and civilization as we know it. Yeah. And, you know, we couldn't be I actually think the likeliest case is that we end up in a kind of Baptist and bootlegger scenario where the people who want to regulate AI are, you know, in this metaphor, the Baptist people who have like moral oppositions, which, by the way, is a lot of the country to what's happening from AI.
Read the full transcript
26:11And then the people who benefit from the regulatory conditions, like Facebook was lobbying hard on Section 230. They were like, you need to when they realized the public was turning against them in Trump 1.0 and then the early Biden administration, Facebook was out there lobbying against Section 230 because they realized they could create a regulatory environment that's bad for the people who could possibly try in some way to compete with them. for audience share. And so, yeah, some of the most powerful people in AI, Elon Musk being one of them, we could actually throw this Katie Miller tweet up on the board.
26:50Katie Miller has worked for Elon Musk. I don't know if she's currently working for Elon Musk. This is Stephen Miller's wife, who clapped back at the other co-founder of Anthropic and said, because he posted, quote, my deep loyalty is to the principles of classical liberal democracy. This is Chris Ola. She says, if this is what they say publicly, this is how their AI model is programmed. Woke and deeply leftist ideology is what they want you to rely on. So that's what you to rely upon. So that's Katie Miller saying him, quote, saying his deep loyalty is the principles of classical liberal democracy equals woke and deeply leftist.
27:26Well, what you're probably seeing there is somebody who supports XAI going after somebody at a rival. Yeah. A rival AI company, because that was a pretty thin gruel. That was quite a stretch of an attack on Edthropic. How many right wingers call themselves like classical liberals? That was a whole thing. So, yeah, we all learned what a classical liberal was. And it doesn't mean what she's claiming it to mean. Yeah. And on that note, the public's just not buying it. So we can throw up this next. This was E3. This is public support of bans on local data center construction. That's something that Bernie Sanders has obviously floated on a policy level.
28:15actually, Republicans have gone up from 43 % in October wanting a ban to 47%. This is from Morning Consult wanting a ban in November. That puts them higher than Democrats, who 34 % wanted a ban in October and now 41 % wanted a ban in November. This graphic is courtesy of Semaphore. And Crystal, there have been data center, the construction of data centers blocked all over the country. This is a real trend. It's certainly because we're in a midterm election cycle and And people are recognizing they can lead the charge of this. But Heatmap put together this graphic where you can see this, quote, surge of data center cancellations as people in communities around the country, A, question the predicate for the massive construction of data centers to fuel the AI revolution that could be taking their jobs, changing the world, making a less safe place for their children.
29:10But then also taking up tons of land, energy, and only creating, what, like 70 permanent jobs in some cases. Yeah. Well, and I support Sanders, you know, temporary ban on new data centers and the way he phrases it as we basically need time for democracy to catch up with what is going on here, with what these technologies mean, with the resource requirements, with the way they're spiking electricity bills. You know, there's genuine like YIMBY concerns here, too, about the character of these are being put in like on a bunch of, you know, buying up farms and then putting in these gigantic data centers, etc.
29:49There's noise pollution concern, like all of those things. Right. And so I support the idea of let's pause this for now. Let's let's figure out what's going on. Let's come up with a, you know, some sort of consensus that the public can buy into of where we're going with all of these things. But, you know, to take it back full circle to the, you know, the memo from the Anthropics CEO, his proposal is like, that's why we need progressive taxation. That's his idea, big grand plan and idea for dealing with this technology that he himself believes is going to completely upend the social contract. And he can afford it, by the way, because he's super, super rich.
30:29So, yes, it's a dent in his income, but it's not that much of a dent. Yeah. And listen, I don't know the guy. I don't know what his motivations are, et cetera, et cetera. But, you know, he he likes to position himself as a sort of like responsible, you know, responsible AI tech guy. And so he's flagging these concerns. He, I think, is committed to giving 80 percent of his net wealth to charity or something like that. In any case, so that's that's sort of like how he's positioned himself. And he's like, so here's my big idea, guys, progressive taxation. I mean, that has just not come anywhere close to dealing with the scale of the fallout that he is predicting we're going to see.
31:08Welcome to the A-Building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And Black America is at a breaking point. rioting and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in Black history, Martin Luther King Sr. and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution, I mean, people were dying. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago.
31:53This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should. And it will blow your mind. Listen to The A Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Seems like just yesterday that the Two Guys Five Rings podcast was in Paris for the Olympics. And now we're heading to Milan for the 2026 Milan Cortina Olympic Winter Games. I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. And we'll join athletes from 93 countries as Two Guys Five Rings hits the Italian Alps for the 2026 Milan Cortina Olympic Winter Games. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Did we mention it's free?
32:34Search Two Guys Five Rings and listen now. What if mind control is real? If you could control the behavior of anybody around you, what kind of life would you have? Can you hypnotically persuade someone to buy a car? When you look at your car, you're going to become overwhelmed with such good feelings. Can you hypnotize someone into sleeping with you? I gave her some suggestions to be sexually aroused. Can you get someone to join your cult? NLP was used on me to access my subconscious. NLP, aka Neuro Linguistic Programming, is a blend of hypnosis, linguistics, and psychology. Fans say it's like finally getting a user manual for your brain.
33:15It's about engineering consciousness. Mind Games is the story of NLP. It's crazy cast of disciples and the fake doctor who invented it at a New Age commune and sold it to guys in suits. He stood trial for murder and got acquitted. The biggest mind game of all? NLP might actually work. This is wild. Listen to Mind Games on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I mean, actual solution is going to look a lot more like fully automated luxury communism. If we're going to have everybody participating in the benefits of it, then it is just like we need to up the marginal tax rate a little bit on the wealthy or we need a little bit more of a corporate income tax.
33:58I support raising those things. I think that's a good, very small start. But we have to talk about who's owning, right? Who's owning the AI? Who's owning the tech? How is there any sort of democratic input into how this is developed, into how it is deployed, etc.? Because if it remains in the hands of these handful of totally unaccountable oligarchs, it is a thorough and complete disaster in the making. So, you know, I think the proposals that are being floated right now are just so wildly inadequate based on their own assessments of where this is heading. Now, they may be wrong in those assessments.
34:36As I said before, they are self-interested in those assessments. And I really am not equipped to really assess whether they are correct in where things are heading or not. But those are the sorts of like truly radical rewriting of the social contract types of ideas that we need to be we need to be seriously considering at this point. Yeah. And I mean, I don't want to trust Dario here. I'm not saying I don't think either of us is saying that we're trusting him. He has his own motivations, but he makes a better case than Elon Musk does where he says universal high income is imminent thanks to generative AI.
35:14Well, and he thinks that if we just make the AI not woke, then that will solve all the problems. Yes. Whatever the non-woke alternative to classical liberalism is, maybe fascism or a caliphate. I don't know what it is, Crystal, but whatever it is, that's what Grok will promote. Great. Mecca Hitler will promote.
35:43Speaking of world destruction, Crystal, let's talk about the awful tragedy that continues to unfold in Sudan. Indeed. So let's go and put F1 up on the screen. You know, we wanted to bring you the latest updates. And this is a particularly grim development here. So two new mass graves. And this was written up by DropSite that's doing, you know, they're doing a phenomenal job of covering the what is the worst humanitarian crisis on the planet. what, you know, is sort of a civil war, but really it's just mass slaughter and starvation of a lot of civilians. It's also a proxy war. In any case, you're seeing images of these mass graves that were discovered in Khartoum's Riyadh neighborhood.
36:25Dropsite writes, the sites contain the remains of thousands of people. According to local sources, victims were identified as having died under torture in nearby buildings that had been utilized by the Rapid Support Forces, RSF, as detention centers and command hubs.
37:08Quote, From makeshift graves across Khartoum State as of late 2025, authorities aim to relocate all remains from residential areas to official cemeteries by mid-2026. So unfortunately, what they're saying here, Emily, is while this grim discovery has been made, it is far from the last that they expect to be made. I mean, we really have very little access as the public and as a global community into understanding this extent of the savagery here. and just how much brutality, death, and starvation has occurred. Right. And we may not know for a long, long time into the future. We can put the next element up on the screen from DropSite, which reports the Sudanese military announced it was broken a longstanding siege on the city of Dilling in South Kordofan.
38:00And they go on and say Dilling lies on a strategic corridor between Khadugli, the besieged state capital of South Kordofan, and Al Elbaid, the capital of Natharing, North Kordofan, which the RSF has also sought to encircle and besiege. And so what we're looking at, Crystal, is just seemingly no end in sight, basically. I don't know if that's what you're taking from some of this new stuff, but it just, the international community is paying very little attention to this, and it's all continuing apace. Well, the positive news here of the breaking of the siege is, you know, worth pausing on. We You could put F5, some of the videos that have come out of these celebrations of people as the Sudanese army was able to break this very lengthy siege, one of the longest sieges in modern warfare.
38:48So people had no access to food, to medicine, to medical care. So that breakthrough is really significant. You can see people extremely happy at this. And I did see news this morning also that while you still have millions of people who are displaced, internally displaced in Sudan, you have had some three million who have been able to return to their homes. So, you know, some, you know, you're down a bit from the peak of the mass displacement. But obviously the situation is still incredibly, incredibly dire. And we can put F4 up on the screen here, which breaks down some of the regional power games that are being played, which are fueling this and other conflicts as well.
39:36Foreign policy had two good articles here that relate to Sudan. One of them is this one that talks about how you have these rival teams in the Middle East. And you can see this as, you know, in addition to a civil war, you can also see it as a proxy war. They say there's a competition between Abrahamic and Islamic coalitions reshaping the region. Iran's recent domination of headlines from the Middle East amid its violent crackdown on protesters and speculation about possible U.S. military strikes obscures a more consequential regional shift. Tehran is no longer a principal actor shaping the region's strategic trajectory.
40:12Instead, the Middle East is entering a new phase defined by competition between two emerging blocs, an Abrahamic and Islamic coalition. How this rivalry evolves will do more to determine the region's future and the U.S. role in it. Although still short of formal alliances, these two blocs are increasingly coherent. The first side is centered on Israel and the UAE, which is widely, widely suspected of supplying the RSF with weapons to continue to fuel this conflict in spite of an arms embargo. In any case, the UAE extending outward to include Morocco, Greece and even India. This camp is revisionist in orientation, seeking to reconfigure the region through military power, technological collaboration and economic integration.
40:54And then the Abrahamic coalition, they say, is ascended. On the other side, you have countries like Saudi Arabia. And so because of this regional rivalry and these regional blocs that are emerging, you know, they are fighting for dominance of this region and access to the Red Sea in particular, which is why you have this conflict continuing to proceed and be fueled and funded. Let's go and put this next foreign policy article up on the screen, which gets into some of those dynamics specifically. They say Red Sea rivalries risk unraveling the Horn of Africa. If Sudan's civil war spreads to Ethiopia, it will be a humanitarian and strategic disaster.
41:33So this is the real risk right now is the possibility that other countries in the region are brought directly into the conflict and that you end up with a conflagration across the horn of Africa. Dropsite writes, Sudan's civil war, already the world's worst humanitarian disaster, is entering a more dangerous phase as the UAE and RSF threatens to open a new front through Ethiopia. Writing in Foreign Policy, Cameron Hudson and Liam Carr argue the UAE, the main backer of the RSF, may be using Ethiopia to expand supply lines and operations, particularly near the GERD region on Sudan's eastern border.
42:11They warned this could further regionalize the war, draw on Ethiopia, Retrea and Egypt and worsen Sudan's humanitarian situation in a widening proxy battlefield for Gulf and regional powers. The authors say Washington understands such an escalation would undermine U.S. Red Sea counterterrorism and maritime interests, but is yet to draw firm red lines. They argue the international community led by Washington should do all it can to prevent the emergence of a new Ethiopia-UAE axis in Sudan's war. And, you know, the latest development is apparently Washington is going to host what they're describing as a humanitarian conference in the coming weeks with regard to Sudan.
42:52And, you know, the big criticism here is Washington's both disengagement and also, obviously, we have incredible influence over the UAE, which, again, is widely seen as supplying the RSF. And yet we've done nothing to pressure them to cut off the supply of weapons that continues to fuel this, you know, these horrific atrocities. Yeah, that's why I'm such a doomer about this. And obviously, people on the ground are probably feeling, well, maybe they feel some hope right now, but a new front in this horrific, horrific, large scale conflict. when, by the way, Ryan and I were talking last week, who's doing business with the UAE right now?
43:33I don't think anyone will be surprised to know that it's the Trump family, obviously doing plenty of business with the UAE. So their incentives on this are understandably warped given where they're coming from. So that doesn't create a lot of room for optimism. Although, I don't know, Crystal, these conferences always seem to solve the problem. So we just need to get a bunch of bureaucrats together in a room in Washington and everything should be OK. Well, someone needs to convince Trump that maybe if he ends this conflict, maybe he'll get that Nobel Peace Prize after all. Actually a very good point.
44:10Yeah. Although maybe he has just accepted the one that Machado gave him and is like, check that off his list and doesn't care anymore. I mean, that's what he indicated. Right. He no longer has to think about peace because he's got that got that Nobel Peace Prize that Machado gave him. So there you go. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But actually, that's a good point. If anyone got into his ear and was like, hey, call up those UAE guys or have Jared talk to those UAE guys, there may be even more room in Sudan for a golf course. They can maybe help you clear the way for that and you'll get a Nobel Peace Prize in the process.
44:47Half joking, but Trump is persuadable those ways sometimes, it seems. Yeah. So who knows? You just have to convince them there's a development opportunity. That's apparently the path here. Yeah. Maybe they could do another golf course in the UAE or something like that, too. Who knows? Indeed. Well, I was going to say it's been a fun morning, Crystal, but it's been a depressing morning. Yet another depressing morning, indeed. But always a pleasure to spend depressing mornings with you, Emily. I will be Yes, Sagar and I will be in tomorrow It's going to be from home again It's just the ice is not something That either one of us can get around at this point Not safely anyway So hopefully by next week Hopefully we don't get the snowstorm that we might get over the weekend And we'll be back in studio and back to normal next week But tomorrow I'll be from home again And we'll see what happens from there Well, and for all of you Midwesterns like me Thinking this is like East Coast baby behavior It is D.C.
45:45where we film. I actually live in D.C. D.C. is an ice rink. It's not even snow that's the problem. It's snow that has layers of ice on top of it. And so it's been hard to plow. The city's incompetent and all of that. So to just get into the studio, I don't actually think I could get my car to move, to be honest. So just to get to the studio would be too powerless. So when it's when we're able, we'll be back. Yes, in spring, in the fall in spring. See you in March, everyone. All right, guys. Have a great day. I'll see you tomorrow.
46:34It seems like just yesterday that the Two Guys Five Rings podcast was in Paris for the Olympics. And now we're heading to Milan for the 2026 Milan Cortina Olympic Winter Games. I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. And we'll join athletes from 93 countries as Two Guys Five Rings hits the Italian Alps for the 2026 Milan Cortina Olympic Winter Games. Open your free iHeartRadio app. Did we mention it's free? Search Two Guys Five Rings and listen now. 1969. Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. And at Morehouse College, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L.
47:15Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of Trustees, including Martin Luther King Sr. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in Black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. Listen to The A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Black history lives in our stories, our culture, and the conversations we still have in today. This Black History Month, the podcast I Didn't Know, Maybe You Didn't Either, digs into the moments, perspectives, and experiences that don't always make the textbook. Let me tell you about Garrett Morgan.
47:53Bruh had to pretend he didn't even exist just to sell his own invention. Listen to I Didn't Know, Maybe You Didn't Either from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or simply wherever you get your podcasts.
48:11This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.
From the publisher
Krystal and Emily discuss lawsuit exposes Trump Venezuela lies, top AI exec dire warning, UAE and Saudis on brink of regional war.
Ken Klippenstein: https://www.kenklippenstein.com/
To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.com
Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
