11/17/25: Fuentes Says MAGA Is Dead, CNN Stunned By Epstein Israel Connection, Israel Demands 20 Year US Deal, Schumer Career Over

27:45I think they're the ones to blame. People have agency. If you're going to say overtly racist shit, be openly anti-Semitic, yeah, screw you. Nobody's absolving people who hold those views. But it's also not difficult to see how that could be a logical endpoint for how you end up in this right now. And, you know, Charlie Kirk saw that coming with a lot of the Israel stuff that they were dealing with over at TPUSA. It's a problem now for the entire, not just Republican Party, that's just a problem for the nation broadly. Because, you know, like you were saying about norms and gatekeeping, if you're willing to blow gatekeeping institutions, rhetoric, and all of that on behalf of a foreign government for Israel, then you, in my opinion, again, are the person then who opened up the so-called gates to every crazy person in America.

28:34Because you have no moral authority anymore. You have to restore some sort of moral authority and civic understanding between people so that we can all re-agree kind of on what guardrails and all of that were. That's part of the reason I hate the mainstream media, right? It's because I'm like, listen, I know, yeah, independent media isn't some great bastion, but I thought that some of the norms and the things that they find offensive, whatever, are horrible and are bad. But what we're living through is kind of a reformation of that. And we're living with the logical consequence of what I think, again, a lot of these establishment people propped up and they normalized ethno-state worship and sacrificing principles on behalf of foreign government.

29:11Well, where did you think it was going to go? And many people were warned about this too. Zedulani in particular has been at the forefront always about how openly embracing and supporting current Israeli government, Israeli policy, the destruction, a lot of the domestic policy, which is overtly on behalf of Israel, not only increasing anti-Semitism, undermining American values, and how ultimately the idea that we should all just be treated equally is kind of directly undermined by a lot of the pro-Israel project. And so when people take that seriously, that type of rhetoric, they will embrace the American kind of end of that.

29:46And that's scary for everyone, Jews included, but not just them. Yeah, indeed. And I mean, I want to be clear. I don't think that Fuentes style neo-Nazism is going to succeed as a political project. I don't think it's a majority coalition, but I do think it is succeeding at destroying MAGA. And I think that it, you know, so and look, put it on full display. Let people see, you know, what the views are, the hate and the ugliness that is embraced by, you know, people within a validly like central racialist worldview. And, you know, I think most Americans, I have enough faith in this country that I think most Americans will be repelled and disgusted by, you know, a group of people who, you know, follows a guy who says that he thinks Hitler's great and the Holocaust was faked or exaggerated and that he's worried about, quote unquote, organized Jewry and, you know, all the horrific things that he says about every minority group.

30:49I think that will be rejected by Americans. But but he certainly has caused it. Like I said, he's caused a choosing within the Republican Party. And it's probably a good good segue here to our conversation about Israel and what's going on there. Welcome to the A-Building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lamumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated, and Black America is at a breaking point. Rioting and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history, Martin Luther King Sr.

31:31and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution, I mean, people were dying. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago. This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should, and it will blow your mind. Listen to the A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends.

32:17Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy. to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

32:42What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me, it's where culture meets the soul, a place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks, and we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you. Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated.

33:20Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

33:40Turning now to the question of Israel in the American right, and also, as I mentioned previously, about not just the right, but also the mainstream media. There was an incredible, incredible exchange between Marjorie Taylor Greene and Dana Bash over at CNN. Dana Bash has been pretty vehemently pro-Israel from the beginning of the October 7th attack and has consistently defended the government and made accusations around anti-Semitism on CNN. But here in particular, Marjorie Taylor Greene raises drop site news and Ryan Grimm's reporting around Epstein and Israel connection. and Dana Bash seems aghast, unaware.

34:17And this is one of the most exposing clips I've ever seen yet on the issue. Let's take a listen. You questioned who and what country is putting so much pressure on Trump to keep the Epstein files hidden. And you included a picture about donations from pro-Israel lobbying group at AIPAC. What are you trying to say there? Well, I think it's the question that many Americans are asking, especially when we saw information recently come out in these emails that the oversight committee that I serve on has released. And we saw Jeffrey Epstein with ties to Ehud Barak. We saw him making business deals with them, also business deals that involved the Israeli government and seems to have led into their intel agencies.

35:07And I think the right question is to ask is, was Jeffrey Epstein working for Israel And I'm proud to say I don't take money from AIPAC. I don't take money from any special group of people. I'm just representing my district and the American people. And so that's what I was referring to. I just want to be clear. Are you saying Israel is pushing the president of the United States to cover up the Epstein files? And what evidence do you have that that is? No, I simply, no, I simply asked, no, I simply just asked out loud, is there a foreign government? It could be any foreign government, but is a foreign government pushing to keep this covered up?

35:49Because people just don't understand the big fight against. Well, you had AIPAC up there. It was pretty clear which government you were talking about.

36:01that i'm questioning that government in particular and questioning any other foreign government oh it's pretty clear which government yeah what's wrong with talking about that government the evidence is straight up it's right there i mean what's the problem with it's just so ridiculous and it's it's just crazy it's it's you know i really believe that the israel epstein connection is one of the reasons why not just trump but a lot of the conservative media was so reluctant to actually go full on in the release of the Epstein files. I've actually always found it a little bit ironic. I've been at the story, you know, the Mossad theory and all that with Epstein.

36:36It was a theory. Now it's basically confirmed in terms of his acting as an agent, often on behalf of Israel, not just for Israel, many other foreign governments. But there was, you know, originally like this belief, oh, it'll just be the Democrats that are going to be implicated. Well, one of the reasons why it appears he got the sweetheart deal and more, at least again, you know, my personal theory is because of his power-broken connections all across the world, Israel, Russia, Saudi Arabia, all of these different governments, Mongolia, the Cote d 'Ivoire. That's what Ryan and the full picture have revealed of the backstory behind Epstein.

37:09Money laundering, pedophilia, and all of that was the pedophilia was like a thing that he did at times with the global elite. But the money laundering and his connections, his ability to be a power broker, perhaps at times intertwining the two, although there's not a ton of evidence, you know, to support that, at the very least was why he was protected at some level by some of the most richest and powerful people. So the very fact that CNN had Dana Bash are acting like this is new information that they'd never even heard about before, it just shows you still the information bubble that a lot of the mainstream media and all them are swimming in.

37:46And it's just such a disgrace that Ryan and Dropstar are the only people who are willing to report those emails. Shows like ours are the only people even willing to talk about it. And, you know, a lot of the public is just living in, they have no idea if they're not reading or paying attention. The New York Times will talk all day long about Epstein and Trump, which is fine. I don't care. Publish it. You know, sure, it's definitely a story. Epstein in Israel is also a big story. Where are you guys? Nothing. Yeah. Ryan Grimm and Murtaza Hussain on every single byline with regard to the connections between Epstein and various Israeli figures, spies, former prime minister, dealings with foreign governments on behalf of Israel.

38:28Like they are literally the only ones who are doing this reporting. And then not only are they the only ones that do the reporting, then the mainstream press just pretends that this reporting doesn't even exist. I mean, I actually believe that Dana Bash doesn't even know that it exists. And so she's conducting this interview like these questions to Marjorie Taylor Greene are some kind of a gotcha. Like, are you insinuating that there's some Israel connection here? And she's like, yes, I am because that's been reported out. So if you aren't aware of that piece, then, you know, Epstein is just effectively about morality, which is important.

39:08Like, I think the, you know, people want to know about the sleazy behavior of politicians and global elites and the way they're all interconnected and cover for themselves. And that has a lot to do with power. And so I don't think that you can just dismiss that on its own. But if you're not tying that in with Israel specifically, but more broadly, any other foreign governments, as Marjorie Taylor Greene represents there as well, if you're not tying those pieces together, then you're not really connecting it to the present day and the risk and the danger from this president right now and why this should be a central story and why it is really important and has immediate bearing on the conduct of our own foreign policy.

39:48So it's just wild to see her living in this completely different universe where any sort of Israel Epstein connection is purely like fever, swamp, conspiracy, anti-Semitic garbage. That's how she sees it. And that's, I think, how most of the mainstream press sees it as well. Either that or they're just like, you know, themselves covering up for Israel, which is certainly possible in many cases. But a lot of it is just they sort of see that as icky conspiracy that they're not going to dirty their hands with. And so she sees it as some like gotcha question to Marjorie Taylor Greene rather than a legitimate line of inquiry and maybe the most legitimate line of inquiry and concern with regard to releasing the Epstein files today.

40:34I think this is a problem. I also I want to normalize because a lot of Democrats are very knew to Epstein, right? They never paid attention. Now that Trump is involved, they're frothing, and they're like, this is great. And I've noticed this with like Ezra Klein and all of them. They see the political utility, but to them, it's still icky because Republicans have been talking about it, let's say for five years. And they kind of think, like you said, it's a conspiracy dream. Guys, the Israel thing, it's real, okay? Let's talk about it. Let's talk about it. It's not just, you know, they're so new to the story that they think anybody who's talked about that in the past, conspiracy brain.

41:09They don't know what the type. No, no, no, no, no. We have the evidence now. Look at what Ryan and Murtaza have reported. If I had that six months ago on Tucker Carlson and all that, I would have blown it out. And I, you know, I was trying to be careful at the time about, well, you know, in terms of theories and speculation, it's over security agreements with the presidents of Mongolia. It's done. Military technology, Ayyad Barak, you combine that with everything that we already had in terms of a lot of the evidence. There's just not even a discussion at this point in terms of acting on behalf of Israel.

41:37We need to get this into the bloodstream of the Midas touch folks and others, because right now everything is just focused on Trump. The point, as you just said, is the connective tissue from, yes, just Trump also being mentioned, but the Israel part and its potential relation to foreign policy and also of the double standard that we use in terms of counterintelligence and more on the issue and potentially why Epstein was able to get away in the sweetheart deal with his non-prosecution agreement. That's how you connect the two sides of the coin. And unfortunately, Unfortunately, CNNs of the world and others still want to brand that as anti-Semitic.

42:10No, it's just a fact. It's literally just a simple fact. I also did, if I would be remiss if I didn't show the more recent developments in conservative media. Let's put this up here on the screen. The American Conservative published this. I love it. From Daniel Bogueslaw, who's great. New FARAH filings, which are the Foreign Agent Registration Act filings, show plans to promote pro-Israel messaging at the conservative Salem media network. So, you know, people at Salem Media include, they say, 82 radio stations across the U.S., major websites, manages high-profile websites, town hall, red state, influential platforms, conserving discourse.

42:48Some of the programs that are featured include the Charlie Kirk Show, the Nidash Jisooja Show, the Josh Hammer Show, the Right View with Lara Trump. Well, now, according to the company data, the network generates some 80 million monthly page views, 37 monthly ads. So, you know, it's obviously, it's influential. And so these new FARA documents show that Salem Media may have already begun integrating paid-for Israeli government narratives across its extensive network of platforms. This is according to this report from the American conservative. Salem did not respond, by the way, to the American conservative's request for comment.

43:23The Israeli government retained Salem Media's chief strategy officer, Brad Parscale, who's the former campaign manager for Donald Trump, to advocate for Israeli interest through a$6 million financial arrangement. So this is all directly acknowledged in FARA. But it also, by the way, Dinesh D'Souza very recently has been attacking Tucker Carlson. And perhaps it's legitimate, but it does, you know, genuinely raise a question when you see vast amounts of money like this being thrown around to Brad Parscale, who's working for Salem, and its potential influence on the conservative landscape and discourse.

43:56So, you know, that's part of the reason why all of this is so important. Isn't Parscale also doing some, like, trying to train, like, AI chatbots to be more pro-Israel? I did see a story behind that. I think he's involved with that as well. I did see a story behind that. I definitely would like to explore it more. I hadn't seen it fully confirmed, but this one I was like, ooh, they have them dead to rights. So yeah, if you see people from there, I mean, look, it's a legitimate question. That's part of the reason our business is set up the way that it is, primary funded. Nobody can be coming around here saying, oh, you're getting paid by X amount of interest or whatever.

44:31And if your views just happen to align with the advertisers, maybe that's just the way it is. I don't think Josh Hammer is pro-Israel because he's being paid by Pro-Israel. You know, you can say a lot about the guy, but I don't think that's what I think. He genuinely believes it. With Dinesh, though, I really don't know, personally, and with a lot of the others there. But at the very least, it just goes to show you buying influence because they recognize or trying to buy influence with Brad Parscale and potentially with ads and all this other stuff, specifically because they think that they're losing the information war, and it's because they have a reality problem.

45:02Welcome to the A-Building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. It's 1969.

45:17In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in Black history, Martin Luther King Sr. and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution, I mean, people were dying. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago. This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should. And it will blow your mind. Listen to The A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

46:03I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

46:40What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me, it's where culture meets the soul, a place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks, and we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you. Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated.

47:17Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

47:38Let's talk more about that reality problem because we don't want to lose sight of what is happening in Gaza right now. I'll put D3 up on the screen. I mean, truly horrific mass rainfall and flooding when you have people who are largely still living in tents with very limited supplies, very limited to no sanitation, soaking wet, freezing any ownings and belongings that they still have completely destroyed. You know, and this is after years of horror. So you can only imagine how broken down they are and how dispiriting it is now to also have these horrific floods that are just, I mean, it's a complete and total nightmare as winter looms.

48:25And at the same time, let's put this up on the screen. This is pretty incredible. Israel now is seeking a new 20-year security agreement with the U.S., doubling the usual term and adding what they describe as America first modifications to win the Trump administration's support, Israeli and U.S. officials told me. Now, in the story, if you read it, the two things that they mention as America first provisions are, number one, like the doubling of the length of the agreement and the fact that they want more money than they're already getting, which is insane. And number two, some sort of a like, you know, military tech collaboration, which would further sort of entrench their interests and intertwine us with them, etc.

49:10But to me, Sagar, I mean, this is another very interesting fight on the right. The fact that they are pushing for this 20 year understanding really indicates that they see the writing on the wall. They've already lost the Democratic base. It's gone. It's over. I think it will be a central litmus test in the 2028 primary. There's no doubt in my mind about that. But on the right, they also see these divisions and the writing on the wall with the direction of the Republicans as well. So they're trying to lock in their position as much as they can because they don't have confidence that they'll be able to achieve anything approaching the same level of support in the future.

49:52Yeah, I think it is. I mean, the 20 year memorandum is fascinating for a variety of reasons. Now, first and foremost, the reason that they want to lock it in for 20 years is because they can see that if they don't right now, that a future administration may not do so. But second, let's actually read a lot of the agreement because what they want is they want continued aid to Israel, but the way that they're trying to sell it is the way that the Ukrainians did. So you'll remember for the pro-Ukraine caucus, What they kept saying was, guys, we're not giving money to Ukraine. We're giving money to Ukraine so they can buy more weapons from us.

50:32So it's actually good for your economy. Now, obviously, it's basically money laundering, isn't it? It's like funneling money to a foreign government so that they can buy money from your weapons industry. It's like, well, we could just buy our own weapons if we wanted to, and then we could decide when and where it goes and for what purpose. Seems reasonable if you ask me. But some of the changes that they say not only would change it from 20 years and make it to the 100th anniversary of their independence, but what they want to do is use some of the money for joint U.S.-Israeli research and development rather than direct military aid.

51:05And that would be defense tech, defense AI, Golden Dome missile, as the Israelis said. The fundamental thing, though, that we come back to is they still need the aid. For years, there's been this debate. Does Israel even need aid at this point? I mean, it's a country with free health care. They have a fine economy, according to them. Mr. High Tech, Silicon Valley Nation, all of that. It's like, okay, fine. So if you can afford all of that and you can afford to literally pay a huge portion of your population to not work and to worship and to read the Torah, then why am I giving you billions and billions of dollars in order to subsidize that?

51:39It seems kind of sick, right? Well, this 20-year agreement is still a tacit admission. They need the weapons and they fundamentally don't have the capacity to defend themselves if they wanted to, because a huge portion of their talking point is, we stand, you know, we will always stand alone if and when we need to. No, it's obvious, especially during the Iran crisis, we saw that. Look, you know, in terms of their missile defense, the Iranians were able to penetrate it. They bombed a lot of high-value targets in the middle of Tel Aviv and across Israel, despite all of their great technology, which we're basically the ones running, selling.

52:13And in the April attack back in 2024, In 2024, I believe it was the United States ended up shooting down the vast majority of the missiles that were incoming to Israel. They can't actually defend themselves to the degree that they would need to if they ever got into a full-blown war. So the fact is they need the U.S. security umbrella. And all this talk of being this strong, independent nation is bunk and it's ridiculous. Part of the reason I've also always said, too, that—and this is, look, I'm a realist. Part of the reason, too, is also the benefit is because it creates more moral outcomes. is would Israel have behaved in the way that it has over the last two years if it fully had to stand on its own two feet?

52:51No. They would do what normal nations have to do, is they would have to assess the variety of threat actors or whatever in the region. They'd have to calibrate their response to October 7th to make sure that they could actually be sustainable to negotiate peace. The only reason they can act as belligerent as they do is because they have the backing, the full backing of the United States. That's what enables such all of not only just the atrocity, but they're, you know, they're basically like they're gangsterism in the region. That ultimately is what creates destabilization. And so their admission that they can only survive really with a 20 year agreement from the U.S.

53:27undermines their entire how sovereign they are. No, they're a colony basically of the United States, like many other of our so-called allies across the region, too, by the way. Yeah. No, if they didn't have our backing, they couldn't act with this level of impunity. They'd have to maybe actually try to figure out how to get along with their neighbors rather than just constantly, relentlessly bombing them and murdering people. Let's put D7 up on the screen as an indication of how their propaganda efforts are going here in the U.S. You've got Shai Devadai, who was the infamous Columbia professor.

53:59I'm not going to get into all the lore right now, but guys, if you aren't familiar with this character, you can go in and look him up in the way that he's conducted himself. In any case, Miss Rachel said wanting kids to live is not anti-Semitic. I'd say that's fair. And he says in reply, yes, but advocating only for non-Jewish kids to live is. This is such a lie. And I mean, it's just so incredibly dishonest to portray Miss Rachel as only caring about non-Jewish kids, only caring about Palestinian kids. I mean, this is just not true. You can go look at the things that she said after October 7th.

54:39You can go look at what she says all the time. She loves kids, period. She upholds the humanity of kids, period. No matter their racial or ethnic background, unlike this dude, by the way. And so it's just unbelievable to me the way that Miss Rachel has become this like central figure and just exposes the horror and the immoral nature of this Jewish supremacist ideology that undergirds Zionism. Yeah, I mean, for Miss Rachel, she's like, I am so, from the beginning, here's what did Miss Rachel do? She was like, what happened on October 7th was so horrible and what's happening in Gaza is so horrible.

55:21And by saying that latter part, they're like, you're an anti-Semite. From that point forward, literally all she has done, and I've watched all of her videos on Gaza, is she's like, look, I don't think that children should starve. I don't think they should be intentionally targeted. and she's been using a lot of her platform in order to try and raise money for children who have been wounded, let's say in Gaza, including videos doing them, let's say, you know, with like children who have lost limbs. What exactly is anti-Semitic or wrong about that? In fact, from the very beginning, she's made it an explicit point to make sure that she does talk also about victims on October 7th and to specifically highlight the cause of children themselves.

55:58There is nothing anti-Semitic about that whatsoever. So the fact that she gets attacked for talking about Palestinian children, if that alone is anti-Semitism, well, then, yeah. I mean, this, to our whole Fuentes discussion, that's how you get here. If you're gonna say that everything, any criticism, even elevation, in this case of Palestinian children is itself anti-Semitic and talking about their fate is explicitly undermining and not advocating for Jewish children to live, a lot of people are just gonna say, screw you, I can't even listen to you anymore. And, you know, by the way, A lot of the criticism, what they forgot about Miss Rachel is for her, this is an issue that she deeply cares about.

56:37I've listened to interviews with Miss Rachel before. She sees her vein very much in the way of Mr. Rogers. It doesn't take a genius to see that this lady's made plenty of money, okay? So it's not like she can be attacked or bankrupted or any of that. She's probably, what, the most watched show in the history of Netflix, something like that. Billions of views on YouTube. she doesn't need your endorsements or any of that in order to live now at this point. So for her, it's a cause that she just deeply cares about. And all she's done is triple down on her platform to try and raise awareness about the cause.

57:09And look, she still has, it's not only a parental like grassroots following, they're, you know, podcasts and all of them are like jumping over themselves to try to book Miss Rachel. And it's not about the Palestinian issue even then, it's about respect, I think, for her advocacy for children And even mainstream figures look far past that. And they think that these attacks are ridiculous. So I agree. I think it's one of the most exposing thing that's happened in the discourse. It's like, really? They're going after Miss Rachel for saying children shouldn't have their limbs blown off or starved?

57:40Is that the extent of where we are at, Nat Rao? And yes, apparently that's the answer. Yeah. And just before anyone chimes in, it's like, okay, but why does she only care about Gaza and Palestinians? Why doesn't she say something about Sudan? Not only has she said something about Sudan. She literally also raised money for children in Sudan. So, you know, for all those people out there who only give a shit about Sudan, by the way, when it's to say, like, why don't you care about Sudan? Guess what? She also raised money for them and cares about those children as well. Welcome to the A-Building. I'm Hans Charles.

58:13I'm Menelik Lumumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And Black America is at a breaking point. rioting and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in Black history, Martin Luther King Sr. and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution. I mean, people were dying. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago.

58:56This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should. And it will blow your mind. Listen to The A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, In the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now the Winter Olympic Games are underway. We are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

59:48What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me, it's where Culture Meets the Soul, a place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks, and we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you. Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Fake when it's complicated.

1:00:26Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:00:46All right. Should we get a little bit into the Democrats here before we wrap the show? We've got some interesting Gavin Newsom comments. Let's put this up on the screen. Speaking of maybe a time of choosing within within parties, Newsom said this about about Zoran Mamdani. He said, I think Mamdani is very good for the Democratic Party. I want a broad tent. I want a big tent. I want the party of Manchin to Mamdani. I want to be more inclusive. We have to grow the pie. It's not about scarcity. It's an abundance mindset. And I mean, I think here's here's my view of Gavin. I think Gavin is having a very a big moment with the Democratic base right now.

1:01:26I think right now you'd have to say he's basically like the 2028 front runner. And the reason he has gotten such purchase with the Democratic base is because he has positioned himself as this like anti-Trump fighter. You know, he did the Prop 50 thing. He's on Twitter doing this whole like Trump posting type of thing. He hasn't been afraid to pick a fight with the sitting president of the United States. But statements like this should give you pause about whether or not this guy is really going to be the guy. Because you are going to have, within the Democratic base, there has been a level of radicalization where they find like the mansions of the world that just constantly capitulate.

1:02:07And by the way, mansion is not like a populace. Manchin is a corporate guy. They find that disgusting. And so I don't think that the Gavin Newsom's of the world who are trying to be all things to all people and not pick a side in whether or not you're going to continue to be a donor party or whether you're going to confront capital, that position of trying to be all things to all people is not going to be sustainable going forward. And we all know which side Gavin Newsom is actually on and which side he is ultimately going to pick? 100%. It's actually kind of fascinating to see the way that he is grappling like the Mamdani to Manchin thing.

1:02:45I think Gavin, his calibration right now is really losing people because he did best when he was standing against Trump, right? And he actually, let's give him, you know, political credit. He came out against the shutdown deal. He said it was caving. He said it was bad, but he is trying to retain his ability to tap a lot of the donor base and to still live in a world where you get to raise money from all of the rich people, many of whom are also pro-Israel, and then also live in the world of political success for a Zoran Mamdani or for more populist style candidates. I don't think that that circle can be squared.

1:03:23We talked about the whole Fuentes thing earlier. I just don't think you can live with that anymore, unless the billionaires are literally just going to stop advocating for the stuff that they do, which you and I know they'll never do. And they'll just accept. They'll be like, oh, we hate Trump enough. They're willing to just back you up and you can say whatever you want. That is actually theoretically possible. I wouldn't entirely put that off the table, but I don't think that that's going to happen. So then, dude, you're going to have to make a choice at a certain point. And that APAC answer, that was the first time I actually doubted him.

1:03:54I was like, oh, my God. Wow. Like, wow. Because what I respect is his talent. Calibration is bad, in my opinion, because people don't believe anything. But I respect talent and the ability to follow that talent. But in that moment, I was like, man, your inability to be authentic or even to give a normal answer on that was just a huge sell. And this is another example of it's constantly calibration, keep the donors happy, Try to keep the voters happy. Due to a certain point, you're just going to have to choose. And by the way, I mean, I'm curious what you think. I feel like the billionaires, they'll come home.

1:04:33If Gavin's ultimately the nominee and he just says, OK, screw you right now for the primary, they would come home because a lot of them will be against Trump. And they'll ultimately have faith that he'll be better on policy than, let's say, a more populist left style dam. So it's also just bad politics, in my opinion. Yeah, no, I mean, that that is a good point. if he you know postured like he was gonna raise their taxes or do whatever other thing that they're totally terrified and disgusted by but the thing for him is his whole rise to power the whole reason that he's governor of California I mean listen he has political talent you know personally he gives me the ick and he's like used car salesman vibes all over him like greasy Gavin that's that's my sense of him but you know he is a talented figure in a lot of ways especially So you can mix it up with people who did great in that Ron DeSantis debate, whatever.

1:05:23But but yeah, I mean, if he postured like he was going to be different in order to win the Democratic primary, I think you're right that they would still rather have him than a more, you know, someone who had a more consistent track record of confronting capital. There's no doubt about it. But his whole rise to power has been on the corner of the market on the Silicon Valley donors. I'm in a corner of the market on the, you know, the Hollywood donors. I'm in a corner of the market. I'm sure he has plenty of, you know, New York City, Wall Street type donors as well. That's really, truly his base.

1:05:55And so I don't think that he is really fundamentally capable of going against them. And you saw that. That's why that AIPAC moment was very important, because it wasn't something you can spin. There's just there's either a yes. It's a yes or a no. Right. And increasingly, the Democratic base is, you know, they see through these attempts to, well, let me change the subject. Well, let me dodge. Well, let me deflect. There are some yes or no questions where you have to choose a side. And when it comes down to it, Gavin Newsom is going to choose the side of Capitol because that is what he has always been throughout his career, even as I think the base really appreciates the fight that he is sort of demonstrating against Trump right now.

1:06:38So another pretty wild moment in New Hampshire. So Democratic Senator Jean Shaheen was heckled actually by the guy who is in a primary against her daughter for an open House seat. And Jean Shaheen, of course, was the lead Democrat in terms of negotiating the shutdown cave. This was at like a Democratic Party function. So it's a lot of like, you know, of her fans and just sort of like Democratic Party, the type of people that actually go to the committee meetings and serve on the boards and those sorts of folks who are in the room. But let's take a listen to that. So let me be clear. Nobody wants to extend the Affordable Care Act tax credits more than me or more than Senator Hassan.

1:07:25Why did you vote for it? You look at our record and you tell me what you've done to protect the health care of Americans. And it's not even close to what we've done.

1:07:42So Sagar, she's like very nasty and aggressive against this guy. And it's going to be interesting to see. So as I mentioned, her daughter is running for Congress and her daughter actually came out against the shutdown deal. So she's on the opposite side of her mom. But at this point in the state with the Democratic base, even though in that room, Gene Shaheen gets some support, the overall sense is like disgust over the shutdown cave. And so I wonder if the daughter like, you know, catches some damage here just from being in the same family. And then let's put this up on the screen of this, the guy who was doing the heckling, who is in this primary with Gene Shaheen's daughter.

1:08:23And he talks about his own medical issues and how fundamental that has been to his own politics in explaining why he decided to stand up and have this moment. So he says, Senator Shaheen, I suffered a severe spinal injury at age 15. My spinal cord had to be rebundled. I had eight rods and four screws put in my back. Four years later, one of the rods in my back snapped and I had to have another major surgery. I developed a rectinoiditis I'm going to go with, a chronic pain condition that I live with for the rest of my life due to surgery complications. The first photo shows my spine. The second represents yours, and it's a box of wet noodles.

1:09:01I will never back down when it comes to health care. So, you know, the shutdown has injected another sort of litmus test issue within the Democratic primary and within Democratic primaries. And what I've seen, Sagar, too, is it's not enough to have opposed the shutdown cave. Basically, everyone who is running for office says they oppose it, including Jean Shaheen's own daughter. But the next level is saying that Chuck Schumer needs to go. And that's the one that a lot of candidates, including Peggy Flanagan in the Minnesota primary that we interviewed, including I interviewed Antonio Delgado, who's lieutenant governor of New York, challenging Kathy Hochul.

1:09:36AOC can't come out and outright say it. that seems to be the one that is more difficult for some of these candidates to fully articulate and get on board with. Totally. And, you know, this also gets the Chuck Schumer element that you set up. Let's go to that next one and put it on the screen. E4 just about how the shutdown has left people questioning his future more than ever. Like you have a record number of Democrats who are speaking out specifically against Schumer's leadership in the House. You had Ro Khanna saying that he needs to resign. You had multiple others in the Senate grumbling about his handling of it.

1:10:10You have a historically unpopular Democratic leader here for his handling of the shutdown. He has to run again if he wants to in 2028. He has to run again for re-election if he wants to. The Democrats then would have to back him. You have candidates explicitly like Plattner another saying, I won't vote for the guy. So this demonstrates where so much of the grassroots energy is on the Democratic Party. And this tying it back to Gavin, the fact that Gavin hasn't called for Schumer's head and still kind of maintains friendly relationship with Democratic leaders, that's just such a liability in this anti-institutional moment.

1:10:49Like you have to just be willing to come out and be like, no, he's done. He betrayed us. He's got to go. Like there's just only political upside to that. But because of political connections, he can't do it. With Gavin, I, you know, I don't expect anything different with some of these candidates who are positioning themselves as the progressive insurgent in the race. I'm like, I don't get it. What is the hang up here? Like he doesn't like you. He's supporting your opponent. Why can't you just say, yes, we need new leadership. This guy has got to go. But that article is interesting because it says effectively, like everyone knows this is Schumer's last term except for him.

1:11:22Like he may be the last guy to not realize that his political career is over because, I mean, AOC is the most obvious potential primary challenger. I think she'd wipe the floor with him. But they mentioned any number of other Pat Ryan is one other potential possibility. Letitia James. There are a lot of other New York politicians who I think would handily defeat him at this point in a primary. so you know i i think he'll probably remain on as leader because i don't see any of the senate democratic uh caucus that are standing up to say okay we've got to do something different it's perplexing to me because you'd be such a hero like if you're chris van holland or whoever who's sniffing around a presidential run you'd be such a hero to take that position but i don't see any of them doing it so i think he'll remain as leader but um you know come 2028 i think i think he's going to be out.

1:12:12But, you know, yeah, on the Gavin point, you're absolutely correct. It's one more issue where if he gets asked the direct question, people are not going to like they're not going to like his answer. They don't want this Weasley crap. They want these old failed leaders gone. They want a completely new direction. And it's really going to advantage those who are outsiders to the system. Like, you know, this guy who challenged Senator Shaheen, who has, you know, he doesn't give a shit what Chuck Schumer thinks of him or the Graham Plattners of the world or whatever, they're like, yeah, fuck that guy.

1:12:40It's easy for me to be able to say it. So it's another thing that's really going to advantage outsiders in these upcoming Democratic primaries. Yeah, 100 percent. And just look to back up on the polling. We can end it here. E5 up on the screen. Just look at this. Most Democrats think congressional Republicans compromise too much. 55 percent. Only 32 percent say right amount. Only 13 percent say not enough. So I mean, look, it's overwhelming in terms of the majority. And then put the next one up there on the screen, Schumer apparently called the Democratic hopefuls, Andy Beshear, Josh Shapiro, and J.B.

1:13:14Prisker, and told them not to criticize the deal that reopened the government. First of all, that's a sell on all three of them, if all three of them actually didn't do that. I'd have to go back and check their potential statements. But yeah, for all this talk about how secretly he was fighting against the deal, it's like, well, then why are you doing that, man? Why are you calling all these hopefuls and telling them not to vote, and telling them not to criticize the deal? Exactly, exactly. Exactly. And once again, like in the Epstein block, got to give Ro Khanna his due. Yeah, you do. Because he was the first down to the gates to say, that's it.

1:13:44Schumer's got to go. And then you had a number of other Democratic reps who followed behind him. But he seems to have, you know, much more of his finger on the pulse of where the Democratic base is than many other would be 2028 aspirants. And I include AOC in that as well, because she was very when she got asked about Schumer, she did this whole, well, they all kind of suck. So what I like sounding like Bernie's line on this thing as well. And, you know, he's he's been the one who figured out Epstein was the place to push Trump and MAGA and then is been much more in touch with the Democratic base in terms of their discuss with leadership.

1:14:20Yep, exactly right. OK, guys, thank you so much for watching. We appreciate it. We'll have a great show for everybody tomorrow. We'll see you then.

1:14:40Over the last couple years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by black people because of what happened in Alabama? This Black History Month, the podcast Selective Ignorance with Mandy B unpacks black history and culture with comedy, clarity and conversations that shake the status quo. The Crown Act in New York was signed in July of 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race. To hear this and more, listen to Selective Ignorance with Mandy B from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:15:13I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead-up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, We are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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