11/19/25: Trump Meets MBS, MTG Calls Trump Traitor, Epstein Pursued Rothschild Bank, Obama Official Laments Holocaust Education

25:41Many areas in technology, AI, materials, magnets, etc., that will create a lot of investment opportunities. So you are doing that now? You're saying to me now that the$600 billion will be$1 trillion? Definitely, because what we are signing, it will facilitate that. I like that very much.

26:05No, that's great. I appreciate that. That's great. No, we're doing numbers that nobody's ever done. And in all fairness, if you didn't see potential in the U.S., you wouldn't be doing that. You don't want to lose money. We use tariffs to bring all this money in. And you're going to see the results in a year when these plants start to open up. We have more plants under construction now than at any time in the history of our country. And these are big plants. These are the biggest plants anywhere in the world. And the backdrop here is that Trump has been pressuring Saudi Arabia to normalize relations with Israel.

26:40Saudi Arabia has continued to say, you've got to give us something on Palestinian statehood. We cannot do it without it. Let's roll a little bit of the exchange on the Abraham Accords here at, say, six. I believe having a good relation with all these countries is a good thing. and we want to be part of the Abraham Accord, but we want also to be sure that we secure a clear path of two-state solution. Today we have a healthy discussion with Mr. President that we're going to work on that to be sure that we can prepare the right situation as soon as possible to have that. I think we're, you know, I don't want to use the word commitment, but we've had a very good talk on the Abraham Accords.

27:20We talked about one state, two states. You know, we talked about a lot of things in a short period of time. And we'll be discussing it further, too. But I think you have a very good feeling for the Abraham Accords. Yes, definitely, Mr. President. We want peace for the Israelis. We want peace for the Palestinians. We want them to coexist peacefully in the region. And we will do our best to reach that date. And the defense agreement, have you reached an agreement on that? We pretty much have. So as you can hear from him, even the second time that Trump says, like, you've got a really warm feeling towards the Abraham Accords, though, right?

27:50He's like, well, as long as there's peace and coexistence with the Palestinians. Like, that is still, for domestic and regional reasons, a line that MBS is not able to cross. I think MBS personally, like, if it were up to him, he doesn't care. He'd be happy to join the Abraham Accords and strike endless, you know, business and political deals with Israel and just ignore the fact of the Palestinians. But he just, he knows that you, that he cannot do that. He just, he doesn't have it. the regional and domestic politics just simply won't allow it. And if you're just listening to this, by the way, and you're not seeing the clips, what you're missing is Trump literally slapping MBS on the knee.

28:33They were playing with each other's hands at one point because they went in for a fist bump, but Trump said he doesn't do fist bumps. It was a level of friendliness that you would rarely see between a president and any foreign leader, let alone the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. And it's friendliness in it, But it's also Trump's kind of little ribbing bullying style that he has because MBS, as you can tell, is a very awkward figure. And so Trump kind of knee slapping him and pushing him around. It's like he knows he's kind of pushing MBS out of his comfort zone a little bit. And it's kind of an alpha dog thing that he's doing.

29:13Oh, that's interesting. That's an interesting psychological reading. That's my reading. That is interesting. They had this dinner last night. Did you see this where Cristiano Ronaldo was there? Oh, yes, I heard that he was there. And that dinner is where they announced that they're going to become a major non-NATO ally. Right. Yeah, Trump rolled out that announcement. He had horses for him. What else? Instead of camels. Yeah. What else would you do? But yes, that was announced just last night. Trump made it clear that's where we were going with the relationship. And this was, I mean, again, you can understand why, but it was a packed dinner.

29:54Elon Musk was there. Ronaldo. A lot of money there. Cabinet officials, Howard Letnick, those types of people. Yes, lots and lots of money there. Red carpet was rolled out, to say the least, for MBS yesterday. Yeah. Welcome to the A-Building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And Black America is at a breaking point. Writing and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in Black history, Martin Luther King Sr.

30:32and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution, I mean, people were dying. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago. This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should. And it will blow your mind. Listen to The A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

31:10What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me, it's where culture meets the soul. A place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life. Celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you. Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Fake when it's complicated.

31:47Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

32:07I'm Bowen Yang. And I'm Matt Rogers. During this season of the Two Guys Five Rings podcast, in the lead up to the Milan Cortina 2026 Winter Olympic Games, we've been joined by some of our friends. Hi, Bowen. Hi, Matt. Hey, Elmo. Hey, Matt. Hey, Bowen. Hi, Cookie. Hi. Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway. We are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

32:42So a good friend of MBS's, by the way, was financier and sex trafficker Jeffrey Epstein. Wow. Jeffrey Epstein was the subject of a vote yesterday in the House of Representatives. We can roll a Marjorie Taylor Greene, who has now been denounced by President Trump, embraced by some Democrats, held a press conference with Epstein victims outside of Congress. Here's Marjorie Taylor Greene. I was called a traitor by a man that I fought for five, no, actually six years for. And I gave him my loyalty for free. I won my first election without his endorsement, beating eight men in a primary. And I've never owed him anything, but I fought for him for the policies and for America first.

33:37And he called me a traitor for standing with these women and refusing to take my name off the discharge petition. Let me tell you what a traitor is. A traitor is an American that serves foreign countries and themselves. A patriot is an American that serves the United States of America and Americans like the women standing behind me. And I want to tell you that this only became possible today because the American people whom we serve as representatives here in Congress demanded that this vote happen. And they put more pressure on every single elected politician in this city than has ever been put on them.

34:26And today you are going to see probably a unanimous vote in the House to release the Epstein files. But the fight, the real fight will happen after that. So I think, Emily, that that's true, that the public did put enormous pressure on these representatives, including by electing Adelie de Rojava and getting 218 signatures on the discharge petition and forcing Trump's hand to the point where he said, you know what, just everybody should just vote for this point. But is that right, you think, like that this was a real kind of a rare dub for the people? Yeah, I mean, I absolutely think so. People may remember before the August recess on this show, I covered talking to a bunch of Republican congressmen on the Hill.

35:19It was just a couple of days before recess. And I was asking them, are you expecting to get questions about Epstein? Because at the time, Trump's line, and he's still using this now to some extent, but his line was this is all a distraction. this is a Democrat hoax to get you to you know not focus on the one big beautiful bill and all of that and I actually didn't get that response from Republican congressman that I talked to who were saying no we fully expect to hear from our constituents about Jeffrey Epstein and so I think that's exactly what happened I think Trump learned that it wasn't going anywhere the issue wasn't going anywhere.

35:54He saw that, could not control the people like Marjorie Taylor Greene going all over media. It just would not die away. And I think Trump believed he had more control over the base and he does have a lot of control over the base. But this is an issue that just absolutely embodies what people see as the swamp and that you can't kind of hand wave it away. And so while people may be willing to like bend over backwards and uh exonerate donald trump and say well he's you know nothing to do with epstein they are not willing to do that with epstein overall say yeah go away like this doesn't matter um and so i think genuinely they're they're republicans realized it wasn't just marjorie taylor green going on you know all like the view it was actually also that you had congressmen saying we we're gonna have to vote for this discharge petition We can't be voting against this discharge petition.

36:53And I think when Trump realized where the numbers were going, it was a cost benefit analysis. He was like, well, the cost of whatever comes out is worth the benefit to these guys of having to take the vote at this point. Yeah. And for Trump to hold on this long really makes you wonder, like, what is he worried about is in there? Because he knows better than anybody that for years the Republican base was told the world government is being run by a secret cabal of predator pedophiles. Then you catch one. And you're told, well, never mind. That's not going to fly. Right. No. No, and it didn't. If you hadn't spent years telling them that they were run by a cabal of pedophiles, then maybe you catch one pedophile who's in the cabal and you can get away with like, ah, never mind.

37:50Just a hoax. Let this one go. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. We're going to pull on this string. Yeah. And what I mean, the incentive, the explanation for why you have Democratic presidents and Republican presidents during the swamp presidents and whatever the Biden presidency was defending or pushing back on disclosure is because the one incentive that ties them together is protecting the intelligence community. And so that explains, I think, the reluctance on both of their parts. I mean, it's not just Bill Clinton and Donald Trump having friendly relationships with Jeffrey Epstein. It's something deeper than that, which is why I also think Trump realizes, and I say this with no pleasure at all, but that they have some amount of control over what is actually going to be released.

38:43He controls the government right now. And I don't know if you agree with this or not. But it seems to me anything that would actually function as a smoking gun where you have Jeffrey Epstein in writing saying, I trafficked girls as blackmail to change foreign policy and make money in the process. Like if you have that in writing, it has been destroyed or it will not be released. Or it's been unalived. The person who could say that has been unalived. Yes. Yes. Yes. And so it's obvious that you can. And the other person who could say that is getting, you know, kid glove treatment now in minimum security prison.

39:21There you go. And so the Epstein story is not going away. So there's two possibilities. You can either look like you're for disclosure or you can look like you're for stonewalling. But those are the only two options. Yeah. And so speaking of stonewalling, one method they're going to use is, well, this is all a matter of national security. So let's roll Speaker Mike Johnson here. DOJ or the FBI has already reviewed it and determined it is not credible. It is false information. Doing this and requiring this to come out could ruin the reputations of completely innocent people, such as those who may just have known Epstein but knew nothing of his crimes or whose names he exploited.

40:01Think of this, innocent people whose names he exploited and used to try to get close to his intended victims. Their names may be in these files, and they had nothing to do with this. And so by just haphazardly releasing it, you're going to destroy their reputations. I mean, look, I think it is fine to say just because your name is in these emails does not mean that you are a bad person. In fact, I don't know if you noticed this, my former colleague, Akbar Ahmed, his name was in an exchange between Bannon and Epstein. But it was, I think Bannon was sending an article that Akbar had written at the Huffington Post.

40:45And Epstein said that sounds like, his name sounds like an SNL skit. And Bannon replied, quote, very gay Pakistani. So look, he's in there. VGP. He's in there. I told him he should put that on a T-shirt. Yes. But that doesn't mean that he was involved in the predator ring. Right. There's plenty of names in there of people who are innocent. Right. And if that's you, don't worry about it. You're going to be fine. Like, it's only if you're connected to the crimes. Like, a lot of people's names, a lot of people have had some problems, you know, that they've gotten attention that they haven't wanted because they've been in these emails.

41:25Right, Larry Summers. But Larry Summers was, like, not cheating on his wife. okay, that's between consenting, adults, fine, whatever. He was favorably treating a top Chinese Communist Party official who was a key royal figure in the CCP with power over the Belt and Road Initiative in order to get in his daughter's pants. So that becomes an actual matter of public concern because he's trading U.S. policy. or whatever levers he has in order for his own personal gain. So that we can be disgusted by. And sorry, Mike Johnson, that your friend Larry Summers is going to suffer a little bit because of this.

42:16Like, maybe he shouldn't have done those things. And so I think this thing from Johnson and everybody else, both parties who's doing it, think of the innocent people. like no the innocent people are the ones that were behind marjorie taylor green outside of congress the the victims of that scene the innocent innocent people if if your name is in those emails and you didn't do anything wrong fine but if your name is in the emails and you were trading you know your power as a u.s official uh to try to sleep with a chinese communist party official's daughter, then sorry if that's going to cause you a few days of bad press.

42:57And maybe the open AI board meeting for you next time is a little bit uncomfortable. I mean, there will be quote unquote innocent people. I mean, if you were running in these circles at all, and you had any possibility of having your name come up, even if it was in the most innocent of way, like at minimum it will be a headache so i'm sure uh people are expecting a headache maybe legal headache and then maybe in their own personal lives like there was the department store uh air family who he was the one who said jeffrey help me here is he a hooker is she a hooker uh did you see that i know that was a good one um so obviously he was exposed uh maybe his wife already knew it maybe not, but he was exposed for his adultery.

43:44So that's probably more to come. And I would hope that everyone is relatively judicious as they go through the files and journalists reach out for comment and all of that. But I think, Ryan, generally you're correct that if you didn't do anything wrong, you should be able to explain what exactly happened, why you were in this conversation, why your name came up. Maybe you're a journalist whose article was being passed around. There you go. Just have to have faith in the truth. There you go. And meanwhile, we didn't want to let the show pass without the one of the funniest headlines that we've ever seen.

44:24We put up the next element, the headline, Jared Kushner invited Jeffrey Epstein to party with Trump and Harvey Weinstein in 2013. Hell of a party. That would have been. Yeah. Well, this was for the New York Observer. And so it was an invitation from the company. He used to own the New York Observer newspaper. And they put Kusher and his business partner's name on the bottom of it. But the guest list was ridiculous. It was like Blake Lively, Harvey Weinstein, Jeffrey Epstein. It was like celebrities, New York people. It was like to celebrate the anniversary of their New York Observer in New York, if I'm remembering correctly.

45:02But yeah, that's that happened. It's just whatever, because it's like Trump and Harvey Weinstein have been partying with celebrities for decades. Yeah. Trump has been a celebrity just because he hangs out with famous people up until he became president. Like there was no reason why he was a celebrity. Right. He's a real estate developer. It's like, what's going on here? But he hung out. He was famous, so he hung out with famous people. Weinstein, famous, hung out with famous people. and Epstein was at the center of... Epstein seems to be one of the best connected people on the planet from what we can tell from his emails.

45:40So it would not be surprising in 2013 if you're Jerry Kushner that you'd want to invite Epstein to this thing. Bearing in mind, this is four years after his conviction for the underage prostitution thing. So it shows you that what what types of things these elite circles are willing to overlook. And Ryan, as we now talk about new drop site reporting, I do want to say that the estate emails, in addition to the hacked emails that you all have been working through at drop site, expose so plainly in ways that I think normally you have to like dig deep into the analysis of like history books to fully wrap your head around.

46:22And a lot of it is, you know, Cold War history that we'd see up close, like we're seeing right now in these emails. Just the plain, casual, banal corruption and geopolitical maneuvering from the emails over emails that are riddled with typos and unserious grammatical effort. And it's just all there for us to see. And it is really, it's jarring. I mean, it's not surprising, but just seeing it up close in writing is jarring. Welcome to the A-Building. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. It's 1969. Malcolm X and Martin Luther King Jr. have both been assassinated. And Black America was at a breaking point.

47:09Writing and protests broke out on an unprecedented scale. In Atlanta, Georgia, at Martin's alma mater, Morehouse College, the students had their own protest. It featured two prominent figures in black history, Martin Luther King Sr. and a young student, Samuel L. Jackson. To be in what we really thought was a revolution, I mean, people were dying. 1968, the murder of Dr. King, which traumatized everyone. The FBI had a role in the murder of a Black Panther leader in Chicago. This story is about protest. It echoes in today's world far more than it should. and it will blow your mind. Listen to The A Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

48:01What do you do when the headlines don't explain what's happening inside of you? I'm Ben Higgins, and if you can hear me, it's where culture meets the soul, a place for real conversation. Each episode, I sit down with people from all walks of life, celebrities, thinkers, and everyday folks. And we go deeper than the polished story. We talk about what drives us, what shapes us, and what gives us hope. We get honest about the big stuff. Identity when you don't recognize yourself anymore. Loss that changes you. Purpose when success isn't enough. Peace when your mind won't slow down. Faith when it's complicated.

48:39Some guests have answers. Most are still figuring it out. If you've ever felt like there has to be more to the story, this show is for you. Listen to If You Can Hear Me on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

49:16Now, the Winter Olympic Games are underway, and we are in Italy to give you experiences from our hearts to your ears. Listen to Two Guys, Five Rings on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

49:33Yes, if you're somebody who's curious about how this world really works, the release of all these documents has been a gift in that sense. Because it really does open a window into a world that is intended to be kept away from the public. Right. Of the people who are actually making the decisions that shape the world that we live in. And we have one of those stories at DropSite News yesterday. We can put this, I recommend everybody go read this if you can. Headline makes you sound like a crazy person. Yeah. Jeffrey Epstein pursued Swiss Rothschild Bank to finance Israeli cyber weapons empire. And yeah, let's pause for a second.

50:19I was like, as we're doing the reporting, you report what you have, not what you want. And as we're going through it, I'm like, could he have used a bank other than Rothschild? Any other bank. It's like he's trying to make us look like lunatics. Yeah. But the Rothschilds were, for centuries, major financiers in Europe. They really faded over the last decades and century plus, but are still a dominant financial institution in France and in Switzerland in particular. and particularly in Switzerland, they are among a bunch of banks that were in fact under investigation by the Department of Justice for their willingness to engage in the kind of secrecy that is very helpful to people who are moving drugs, moving weapons, working with sanctioned individuals to finance projects.

51:18And Epstein worked with all of those kinds of people. And so this is the kind of bank that is very helpful to them. So I'll go through just some of the reporting here, but 11 days before Epstein was found dead, there was this report in Bloomberg that he had met with Arion de Rothschild, who is now the CEO of the Edmund de Rothschild Group, which is basically what the bank is called now. At the time, the bank is like, it's not true. They had no relationship. Since then, there's been some Wall Street Journal reporting on their relationship that showed that actually there was a little bit of a relationship, so that wasn't quite accurate.

52:02What we can show is that the relationship was very, very deep. and just how deep we'll have some follow-up reporting as well but for now what we can say is that when when Ehud Barak left as a minister of defense in Israel in 2013 he immediately was sought out by European banks as kind of a rainmaker like they knew that he was going to start working with oligarchs all over the world to set up companies and they wanted to be in the middle of that stream. And so he cuts a deal, I think it was Julius Baer Bank, and Epstein then quickly hears from somebody at the Rothschild Bank saying, just saw that Ehud Barak was scooped up by this competitor, too bad, because we actually would have liked to work with him, which shows you a bunch of different things, one of which the banking world knew at that time that if they wanted to reach out to Ehud Barak, who was former prime minister of Israel, for some type of relationship.

53:05The guy to go through was Jeffrey Epstein. At the same time, we report that Epstein, that Rothschild, because they were facing this Department of Justice investigation, needed new counsel. He went out and found an attorney for them. Like on behalf of the Rothschild Bank, He reached out to Catherine Rumler, who was a top lawyer in the Obama administration, and she ended up representing the bank. And that is a matter of public record. She negotiated a non-prosecution agreement. She's at Goldman now, and she was also in these conversations that Michael Wolff has released where there's a public relations strategizing bull session, basically, between Steve Bannon, Michael Wolff, Jeffrey Epstein, and Catherine Rumler.

53:53Right. Right. And so, you know, she was also Epstein also connected her with Gates when Epstein was trying to build. Basically, he was trying to Epstein. It seems like he was trying to take over the giving pledge and like move it into a new donor advised fund and be the be the man behind the strings that never really completely got off the ground. What he what the read. So the so then Epstein ends up connecting Barack and Arion de Rothschild. and we have some just absolutely wild quotes in here we can put up some of these while i'm talking you can just kind of roll through the different um elements of emails and people can pause on those and and and read them um but so in one of the notes um epstein writes um to ehud barak a message from arian de rothschild um where he says and he's so he's basically paraphrasing arian he says she says to Ehud, if Ehud wants to make serious money, he will have to build a relationship with me.

54:57Take time so that we can truly understand one another, unquote. And so then Barack says he's going to defer to Epstein and you're going to love why. I'm ready, he wrote, but I I need your advice. Re how ladies is your forte. Can't argue that. He then he then gives him some some advice that is actually, you know, pretty decent. He's like, just be dependable and reliable and, you know, show up when you're supposed to show up. And this this will work for her. And so they spend the next couple months and years building this relationship. What Epstein wants to do is to create a fund of funds that will create a vehicle that will allow all sorts of money from outside to flow through the Swiss bank and then finance Ehud Barak's growing empire of cyber weapons companies.

56:02companies, which they don't call them cyber weapons when they're talking directly to Rothschild. But when they're talking to each other, they're talking about offensive cyber operations. And read the story to get all the different details of it. But Barack, over the years, does end up building some of the key critical cyber technology, both offensive and defensive, that exists today, including some of the companies that everywhere in the entire backbone of our internet today. So it's hard to overstate just how influential Epstein and Barack were in building kind of the cyber world that we have today.

56:48You can look up Gardacor or Akamai. So Gardacor was a company that was later acquired by Akamai, which is a.k.a. MAI, and has since been integrated into basically the world's largest content delivery system. So they're like, they got their stuff in everywhere. And they're constantly working with the Israeli intelligence apparatus, which is incubating all of these ideas. And then they flow up to Barack and then financed and kind of developed then by Epstein. And so they really made our world in a significant way. And they're doing it, again, just so casually over their emails. Yeah, and what's interesting is that in the emails sometimes he will say, this is too hot for email.

57:43I know. You call me. So what we're able to report now is just what he was willing to talk about on email. Right. He knew that he was, he's like, this is an open email. We can't talk about X. Right. so all this other stuff he's fine talking about so it's like so then you're like okay what was he doing on those calls and what was he doing in person he's like we need to talk about this in person and that'll be the subject i think of some of our future um articles here because there are ways that you can piece together what what he's been up to i mean what you guys are already doing with that is incredible and it's one other piece and then go ahead um meanwhile rothschild also had a tax problem going on right right in israel yeah which epstein you know helped her navigate as well right so like that's people are like what does this guy do right like this he's doing this kind of thing and ahud barack was doing this on a gmail if i'm not mistaken larry summers was doing this on a gmail it's all going back and forth on a bolt on an aol yeah yeah i mean it's just remarkable for, first of all, how stupid that is, but also to see how cavalier they are about not national security, literally global security.

58:59And just they're going around making money off of it, changing the world. Like it's nothing. The drop site reporting has been an incredible window. And you guys are adding a lot of great context to make it easy to digest too. So if you're not reading this stuff, you absolutely have to be. Yeah, go enjoy it. Go get it. Yep. Yep. You don't enjoy it. You'd be like, oh, Jesus. Wow. But man. And some of the money did come through, but not we don't know exactly for what. But there was a twenty five million dollar investment that Epstein was able to to get through involving Rothschild. And we're still piecing all of this together.

59:37So, yeah, wild stuff. Wild, wild stuff. Meanwhile, there is a video going around that is going absolutely viral that we didn't want to pass up a chance to make sure that you saw. It's from the Conference of the Jewish Federation of North America recently. And it's liberal Obama speechwriter Sarah Hurwitz talking about the twin problems that are, she believes, fueling anti-Semitism. And she believes it is social media that is showing people pictures of, quote, carnage in Gaza and also a Holocaust education that has taught people that it is wrong when big, powerful forces are aggressive towards the weak.

1:00:30Just an incredible two minute clip that I think you're going to watch the entirety of and then Emily and I will discuss for a moment. Go ahead and roll this. I think that since October 7th, but really before then, there have been huge shifts in America on how people think about Jews and Israel. And I think that is especially true of young people. So we are now wrestling with a new, I think, generational divide here. And I think that's particularly true in that social media is now our source of media. And this, you know, it used to be that the media you got in America was American media and it was pretty mainstream.

1:01:04You know, it generally didn't express extreme anti-Israel views. You had to go to a pretty weird bookstore to find global media and fringe media. But today we have social media, which is a global medium. It is shaped, its algorithms are shaped by billions of people worldwide who don't really love Jews. And so while in the 1990s, you know, a young person probably wasn't going to find Al Jazeera or someone like Nick Fuentes, today those media outlets find them. They find them on their phones. It's also this increasingly post-literate media, less and less text, more and more videos. So you have TikTok just smashing our young people's brains all day long with video of carnage in Gaza.

1:01:47And this is why so many of us can't have a sane conversation with younger Jews, because anything that we try to say to them, they are hearing it through this wall of carnage. So I want to give data and information and facts and arguments, and they are just seeing in their minds carnage, and I sound obscene. And, you know, I think, unfortunately, the very smart, I think, bet that we made on Holocaust education to serve as anti-Semitism education in this new media environment, I think that is beginning to break down a little bit because, you know, Holocaust education is absolutely essential. But I think it may be confusing some of our young people about anti-Semitism because they learn about big, strong Nazis hurting weak, emaciated Jews.

1:02:29And they think, oh, anti-Semitism is like anti-black racism, right? Powerful white people against powerless black people. So when on TikTok all day long they see powerful Israelis hurting weak, skinny Palestinians, it's not surprising that they think, oh, I know, the lesson of the Holocaust is you fight Israel. You fight the big, powerful people hurting the weak people. All right. So Emily, where do you, where should we, where do we even start with this argument? My worldview is being rejected because people are seeing images of carnage. People are seeing facts. And because people have been taught that it is wrong when a powerful force uses its power to annihilate a weaker people.

1:03:16So therefore, it's not my worldview that needs to change. It isn't that we should end the carnage. We should end the Holocaust education. And we should make sure that we can kill social media so people don't see the images. Yes. That's the death rattle of the gatekeepers. I mean, this clip in a nutshell is the death rattle of the gatekeepers. She is truly upset that people have access to information that previously she feels the gatekeepers were able to keep out, which is also somewhat wrong. Her idea that you used to have to go to a weird bookstore to get your hands on anti-Israel information.

1:03:51No, any bookstore. You can go ahead and walk into Barnes & Noble and pick up your Chomsky. It's fine. But also what she's really lamenting is the lack of control that the gatekeepers used to have to push people out. And it's convenient for her to just chalk that up to Fuentes or left wing critics of Israel. But it's obviously going well beyond fringe figures. And it's not fringe and it shouldn't be considered fringe to oppose what just happened in Gaza over the last couple of years. But she wants to actually relegate those views to the fringes and say, well, this is just craziness. But now it's mainstream because the crazies are mainstream as opposed to now it's mainstream because people had access to different information that you previously were able to gatekeep.

1:04:42Yeah. The only line of hers that made any sense to me was when she said, I sound obscene. And to me, she does. It's a wild line. She does sound obscene. And what I don't understand is how she can't see it. I don't understand this complaint about social media. You know, after October 7th and every day up until the ceasefire. Now there are a handful of, you know, fewer than 10 usually Palestinians being killed every day by Israel. you had about an average of 100 Palestinians killed every single day after October 7th for two plus years. And 80 plus percent, 90 plus percent, we're going by Israeli data here that gets leaked out, civilians, they have smartphones in Gaza.

1:05:33They're able to share footage every day of the many dozens, the scores of people, up to 100 or more, every day being killed in Gaza. How is that social media's fault? Right. Like, what is social media? What is TikTok or Instagram? I know what they want them to do. She mentioned skinny Palestinians as though that's some type of aberration, right? That there was people seeing skinny Palestinians was misleading because it makes you think Palestinians are starving. that seems to be her point right so israel wants to cut off food from getting in everybody loses weight in gaza that gets the images of that are shared with the world i i it's so hard for me to get my mind to a place where you don't say okay so we should actually let the let food in so people aren't starving we should stop killing civilians so that we stop seeing images of civilians being killed right right instead we need to buy tiktok yes yeah like we need to shut down the ability of people to share these images and then but then the second minute of it is the most mind-bending where she says it was it was smart of us to link anti-semitism and holocaust education because we talked about the nazis and what they did and everybody understood that that was bad.

1:07:04But now we need to dial that back because we look like the Nazis. Yeah. That thinking to me is just, I can't, it's incomprehensible. I can't get there. Rather than her saying, we're starting to look like the Nazis in the framework that we have set up with this education. So let's stop doing that. Let's not bomb these apartment buildings. Let's not bomb a tent city. Like let's, let's not displace 2 million people and then bomb them in their tents. Let's not do that because it, even if you don't care about the people themselves, it looks really bad. You're being way too logical. Way too logical.

1:07:52So you're going to dial back And okay, you can dial back Holocaust education all you want. People as human beings understand that if a big powerful force is bombing unarmed people in their tents, that is wrong. You don't actually need education to understand that. You understand that as a human. In fact, almost all animals understand that, not just humans. In the animal kingdom, when animals give themselves up, oftentimes that animal instinct to devour them evaporates. Like when two dogs are fighting, if a dog gives up and exposes its belly and its neck, the other dog will back off. Those dogs did not need education to get there.

1:08:42It's not just a human impulse. It's across the animal kingdom for the most part. And so you can go ahead and root out a Holocaust education all you want. People are still going to understand that if unarmed innocent civilians are being bombed in tents, that's wrong. And the people doing the bombing are wrong and should be prosecuted and jailed. Everyone's going to understand that. Some background on Sarah Hurwitz. She is a very sort of mainstream Democratic establishment figure. She was appointed by Barack Obama to the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Council right before the end of his second term, right before Donald Trump took office.

1:09:19She was a speechwriter for Michelle Obama, Barack Obama. General Wesley Clark, John Kerry, goes back to the early aughts, but has done the tour of kind of normie, centrist Democrats over the last couple of decades. So totally. Like, I feel like I know her a little bit like she would be in my circles. Like, and I'm sure like outside of this is like a lovely person. It's a wild thing to say. What has broken in your brain to get to a place where you think the problem is not what's happening? Or that it's okay to say that aloud. I mean, to say it aloud, like you have the moral authority. And as she was saying, it felt like a thought out, it felt like a structured comment, not like an offhanded remark that you make on a panel.

1:10:12She felt smart and righteous for saying. Yes, I think she had developed these thoughts, planned them out, and she's like, this is what I'm going to talk about. And this is a useful thing to contribute. Well, just as a reminder, like increasingly the way elites are going to talk about people who disagree with them are as people with alternative facts who occupy different narrative silos. And, you know, it's going to be very patronizing, like it's not your fault. You're just getting bad information. You can't be expected to know the truth when TikTok leads you in this direction or when social media is pushing you this way or that way because we have no control.

1:10:51whole and so that's increasingly going to be the way that they treat just you and me normal people who have different opinions than them and viewers listeners who have different opinions from them is you just occupy a different narrative silo and you can't be expected to know the truth like I know I mean I have been a speech writer my goodness for two decades like I know what's actually going on here but you the poor average american who is being confronted with crazy youtubers uh you know we just need to fix the the system of information delivery delivery and maybe that'll work i do like i would suggest stop the killing stop the starvation one way to do it yeah so nobody cares what i think though well some people do no i don't think sarah does

1:12:001969. Malcolm and Martin are gone. America is in crisis. At a Morehouse College, the students make their move. These students, including a young Samuel L. Jackson, locked up the members of the Board of Trustees, including Martin Luther King Sr. It's the true story of protest and rebellion in Black American history that you'll never forget. I'm Hans Charles. I'm Menelik Lumumba. Listen to The A-Building on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Over the last couple years, didn't we learn that the folding chair was invented by Black people because of what happened in Alabama?

1:12:37This Black History Month, the podcast Selective Ignorance with Mandy B unpacks Black history and culture with comedy, clarity, and conversations that shake the status quo. The Crown Act in New York was signed in July of 2019, and that is a bill that was passed to prohibit discrimination based on hairstyles associated with race. To hear this and more, listen to Selective Ignorance with Mandy B from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can scroll the headlines all day and still feel empty. I'm Ben Higgins, and If You Can Hear Me is where culture meets the soul.

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