4/13/26: Korea Flames Israel, Eric Swalwell Scandal, Norm Finkelstein On Iran War

23:30But Swalwell was one of the top Democratic contenders in that race before now suspending his campaign. Now, there had been rumors circulating on social media for a while that there was going to be some scandal that broke about him. And apparently there were a lot of rumors about him on Capitol Hill in general. Rumors of the like, he cheats on his wife routinely with young staffer type variety. Allegedly, yes. Although at that point, it seems like he's basically acknowledged that. Anyway, what came out, though, in the past several days is actual allegations of rape. And we can let's go ahead and play a little bit of the woman who is making this particular allegation against Eric Swalwell.

24:10She was on CNN to tell her story. I decided to ask him to meet me for a drink. And I did this because I was so far removed from what had happened in 2019. I felt safe because I was established. I had a partner. I felt more secure that I could have a strictly professional relationship with this person. After that bar closed, we went to another. I went to the bathroom and I don't remember anything after that. You don't remember anything? I remember the next day. I can see flashes of that evening of him on top of me, me pushing him off, him grabbing me. It was a lot more aggressive. It was aggressive.

25:03Did you say no? Yes. I said no. In my flash that I can recall, I was pushing him off of me saying no. And what did he do? He didn't stop. He didn't stop. And you woke up the next morning. I woke up the next morning naked, alone, in his hotel room. I, for a moment, didn't even know I was in his hotel room. That's how intoxicated I was. And I called my mom, the only person I could think that could help me. And so she alleges that something similar unfolded twice. Once when she was on his campaign or official staff, 24 years old, and then once several years later in the incident that you heard her describing there.

25:53There's another woman who's come forward and can put this E4 CNN tear sheet up on the screen who describes a similar scenario of drinking with him, becoming so intoxicated apparently that she doesn't remember anything and again wakes up in his hotel room. There are two other women who came forward with allegations where it started off as some sort of professional contact. Very soon, it's, hey, let me have your Snapchat. Next thing you know, he's sending unsolicited pictures of his genitalia. So that is the sort of thing that is detailed in the CNN report. And also, if we put E3 up on the screen, I just want to give a shout out to the San Francisco Chronicle, who were the first to document the allegations of this ex-staffer that you saw in the CNN interview.

26:43And people should read this entire report. But there's significant contemporaneous documentation, including text messages that she sent to other people, including tests that she went in. She got tested for pregnancy and STDs after this alleged incident. So it's fairly damning in terms of the level of evidence that you have for these claims. Right. Swalwell denying it, saying the allegations are false and he will fight them. Let's take a listen. A lot has been said about me today through anonymous allegations. I thought it was important that you see and hear from me directly. These allegations of sexual assault are flat false.

27:20They are absolutely false. They did not happen. They have never happened. And I will fight them with everything that I have. They also come on the eve of an election where I have been the front-runner candidate for governor in California. I do not suggest to you in any way that I'm perfect or that I'm a saint. I have certainly made mistakes in judgment in my past. But those mistakes are between me and my wife. And to her, I apologize deeply for putting her in this position. I also apologize to you if in any way you have doubted your support for me. But I think you know who I am. For over 20 years, I have served the public.

28:00As a city councilman, as a member of Congress, and as a prosecutor who went to court on behalf of victims, particularly on behalf of sexual assault victims. That's who I am and have always been. This weekend, I'm going to spend time with my family and friends. And I appreciate those who have reached out to me to show support. and I look forward to updating you very soon. Well, he did update us, ended his campaign. So that's where things stand as of right now. I mean, the big kind of interesting question around this is what you flagged. Let's put E5 up there on the screen. It actually threatens this cascade of House expulsion votes.

28:41So I had no idea that he, for at least three of his House colleagues, so while it was a Democrat, there's others who are on the chopping block who are Republicans, Crystal. And this could actually affect the overall majority and make it even tighter for Mike Johnson. Yeah, because you had Anna Paulina Luna, listen, fine, expel him from the house. I mean, disgusting behavior. And I've come to shift. This is a longer conversation for a different day. But the Libs had a point when they said moral character does matter. I've come to agree with that. Now, where the line is, et cetera, is a different story.

29:12But if you are allegedly raping a woman who's like passed out drunk, yeah, I think it's time for you to go. Go and deal. Talk to your wife. be with your kids, figure out what the hell is going on with your life right now. In any case, he is not the only disgusting cretin in Congress. So Democrats are like, okay, let's expel Swalwell. But we're also going to talk about, what's his name, Tony Gonzalez, who admitted to an affair with his staff. And you see these text messages where he's pressuring her to send him news, pressuring, pressuring. Then she later dies by suicide after the affair is revealed.

29:45There's another one, Cheerfulist. I'm not even familiar with this person or the allegations. mccormick was found guilty by the ethics committee on a litany of charges notably she funneled five million dollars in covid relief funds through a congressional campaign um she's denied wrongdoing but the ethics committee found her uh guilty there um you have another one mills under investigation by the ethics committee on array of allegations including financial misconduct campaign finance violations and sexual misconduct all of which he denies that one the detail is also extremely sorted um i think that's the dude ryan was on piers morgan with and was like challenging him He's like a defense contractor, too.

30:19So. So, yeah, you could have a series of votes on potential expulsions from the House. So we'll see where that goes. It's also possible that Swalwell, the heat and the pressure becomes so great that he just decides to resign his congressional seat here in the near term as well, because he's effectively his staff have come out against him. All of his previous endorsers, including labor unions, including, you know, Ruben Gallego, who had previously said he was his best friend raises some questions there as well. I'm just saying there's weird pictures of the two of them on the backs of camels that are shirtless.

30:50Yeah. Anyway. Also, Gallego's got it. Just saying. All right. There's some Google searching. Exactly. About the circumstances surrounding his divorce. The only thing I want to say, Crystal, is it wasn't just liberals who used to talk about moral character. We all threw it out. So I will join you in setting some moral standards. But some of the liberals may not like how far we're going to take it. So maybe we should bring back some interesting moral codes and other things in our laws and qualification for public office. There's nobody who would love it who is more than me, and it will include a drug test for a certain THC.

31:21All right, let's go on. We've got Norm Finkelstein standing by. I, unfortunately, I have an appointment later on, and Norm, to be totally respectful all this time, Crystal's going to do it solo, but I'll be on tomorrow with Emily. So tomorrow and Wednesday, and then it'll be you and I on Thursday. So that's the schedule as of right now. All right, let's go ahead and kick it to Norm. I don't want to keep him waiting. Hey, it's Edwin Castro, also known as Castro 1021. And I'm Konky, his best friend and business manager. And we've got a new show called the 1021 Podcast. I'm taking you behind the scenes on how I became one of Twitch's most popular streamers.

32:00We also love sports. And with the World Cup right around the corner, we'll be breaking down the biggest storylines ahead of the big tournament here in the USA. Listen to the 1021 podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

32:39In the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drinks. Sidebar, why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a BOGO. Well, then you got them. Do you want a white collar or something? Here, just take it. What are y 'all doing? Microphones? Are you making a rap album? Oh, I would. Could you imagine? I would buy it. Cuts through the defense like a hot knife through sponge cake. That sounds delicious. Oh, you're lucky I'm not a drug addict. You're lucky I'm not an alcoholic. You're lucky I'm not a killer. I love this team, and I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on.

33:14Oh.

33:17Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again for decades and decades and decades by local law enforcement, by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration.

34:00The Justice Department, through I think we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims. Listen to Bleep with Ana Navarro as part of the My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

34:23Joining us now for his analysis of how we ended up in the war with Iran is Norm Finkelstein. He is an activist, he is an academic, and he is an author of many books, including the forthcoming book, Gaza Gravediggers. Great to see you, Norman. Thank you for having me. Yeah, of course. So first, off the top, you know, what is your sense of where we are in this war? We had these purported negotiations. They seem to have fallen apart, although neither side has completely closed the door to further talk. So what do you think is going on here? I don't claim any special knowledge in this area. I can only speak as a generally knowledgeable layperson.

35:01I think that President Trump has three burdens at this point. The war began with the overwhelming majority of American people believing it was an unnecessary war. That then, a second factor, came into play. it proved to be an economically onerous war, an expensive war for the American people. And then number three, which became clear last week, it was an unwinnable war. Even threatening the annihilation of Iranian civilization didn't get the Iranians to budge on their basic issues. So with those three factors, unnecessary, unwinnable, and progressively, incrementally more expensive, it doesn't seem that Trump, in my opinion, and I've heard other opinions from people whom I respect, but I don't believe he can start up the war again at the magnitude that it was before.

36:21That there may be local, so to speak, and probably it's the wrong word, but local skirmishes, yes, and that they may go on for a protracted period of time, yes. But even there with the caveat that unless the Straits of Hormuz are open, the economic burdens will just progressively increase. So I don't believe, contrary, as I said, to listening to other commentators, I don't think war is an option for President Trump at this point. As to where it will go, I can't say, but war is not an option. I would also want to add to that what you might call idiosyncratic or eccentric aspect, which is President Trump has no mental discipline.

37:22He doesn't have physical stamina to focus on one issue, mental or physical stamina, to focus on any one global issue at a time. He moves on. He moves from one crisis to another. He's basically what you might describe as a human wrecking ball. he's an agent of chaos and he thrives on the chaos but you can't I think he's learned that you can't win this time by just heaving the wrecking ball and then moving on that's not going to happen he already had one takedown with Greenland. He had another takedown, which I think important lessons can be learned from, but unfortunately, it's left us behind. He had another takedown in Minnesota.

38:32And this is a takedown, obviously. It falls in the same trajectory, but it's a takedown of a much higher magnitude. So let me ask you then, let's take your analysis and say, okay, Trump is not going to go back to full war because he's realized this is just complete and utter disaster for him. There's no winning it. Where does that then leave Israel? What does their calculation look like from that? There are two, you could say, two schools of thought on that. One school of thought is that Israel will play the spoiler, that it will do everything it can to provoke. There could be false flag operations by Israel.

39:21You can't put it past them. So it will do everything in its power to force Trump to react on a on a catastrophic level. So there's the possibility of a overt or covert, more likely covert, provocation or sequence of provocations by Israel. The second school of thought is when Trump decides to say no, it's no. We already know that's possible. Because you may remember way back when, for various reasons, some say it's because he wanted to win the Nobel Peace Prize. Others said that, in my opinion, he wanted to negotiate a deal with Saudi Arabia. But we know he said Gaza, at least in its overt, most barbaric manifestation, it had to stop.

40:34Now, it obviously didn't stop. And you could say now it's a slow motion genocide. But it was something changed. And it was against Netanyahu's will. Trump just picked up the phone and said it's over. And as I say, in its most barbaric manifestation, it was over. So the other school is that Trump will simply pick up the phone and tell Mr. Netanyahu time to end it. And there were already indications of that. I don't claim to be a prophet, a soothsayer. But I said a few days ago that I think Trump is going to give Netanyahu maybe 48 hours to carry out his blood, to execute his blood, give vent to his blood lust, and then tell him show is over.

41:38And I guess the day after I said that there were reports of Trump saying you have to dial back what you're doing in Lebanon. So I think those are the two possibilities. But I don't believe in the third possibility. The third possibility is Israel is out of control and the U.S. can't do anything. that I find completely, it's not just far-fetched, but it's so in conflict with what the facts and the ground, so to speak, show. Israel doesn't have that kind of independence. That's just completely, in my opinion, it's completely ridiculous. All Trump has to say is do as you want, but count me out. and the show is over.

42:35Could you imagine if just Trump said, well, you do what you want, but at the Security Council, we're not going to veto a resolution if it comes up to call on you to stop in Lebanon. We're not going to veto it. Yeah. Or even we're not going to use our ships to help intercept the Iranian missiles that will target you because they're reportedly down to, you know, double digits in terms of their own interceptors and very dependent on us for protection at this point. Let me get your reaction to some of the analysis of Tucker Carlson, who has been, you know, very critical of Trump and very much in the camp of, you know, Israel will undermine and that Trump will go along.

43:17Because in his words, in this in this clip, he says Trump is a quote, slave to Israel and might be getting blackmailed by Netanyahu. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of that. It's very easy to understand, and you would have to be either not very bright or under immense pressure from another country in order to start a war like this. And the latter is true. We did this because of pressure from Israel. Now, how exactly did they exert that pressure? That's not entirely clear, but we're going to have to find out. I think we have an obligation to find out because we can't be a sovereign country under these circumstances, and we're not a sovereign country at this point.

43:53And obviously Donald Trump would push right back on that. You have been, until now really, a huge supporter of his. You wanted him elected, obviously, for a second term. Have you completely fallen out with him over this war then? I haven't fallen out with him. I mean, I've known him for decades. I've always liked him. And I think anyone who's spent time with him likes him. I feel sorry for him, as I do for all slaves. He is not free in this moment at all to do what he thinks is best for himself or his country. What do you mean? No, he's well, he's not free. And we learned that yesterday when Donald Trump announced a ceasefire, clearly with relief and made its terms or most of its terms public.

44:34And then that ceasefire ended within two hours because Israel intentionally violated the terms by attacking not just southern Lebanon, but the city of Beirut. So are you saying he's a slave to Benjamin Netanyahu? So I don't think it's as simple as he's under the control of Netanyahu. But, you know, you could summarize it that way and you wouldn't be totally inaccurate. And again, we know this because the single biggest mistake Trump or any American president in my lifetime has made was going to war with Iran in an effort to change its regime. It didn't work. It was obviously a mistake immediately.

45:12He understood Trump understood it was a mistake immediately. And he tried to get out of it this week. and announced we were getting out of it and the Israelis prevented us from getting out of it. So that's the clearest possible example. Right. They didn't allow it, therefore they're in charge. So let me get to your reaction to that. And a couple of key points, he says, effectively, Trump is a slave to Israel, that we are no longer a sovereign nation and suggests Trump may be blackmailed by Israel as well. What's the evidence? I feel like we're back to the famous line by Donald Rumsfeld during the Iraq War, or the buildup to the Iraq War.

45:53There are known knowns, there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknowns. And I feel we're here back to the same kind of argument. Mr. Carlson makes a rather large claim that the president of the most powerful country economically and militarily, the president of the United States, is a slave of a country the size of New Jersey with a population of 10 million, whatever it is now, whether or not you include the Palestinians in the occupied territories. Well, that's a very large claim on its face. So now, what's the evidence? There are two pieces of evidence, as I see it, that Tucker Carlson presents that he adduces.

46:58One piece of evidence is that Israel might be blackmailing him. Yes, it's true. They might be blackmailing him, and they might not be blackmailing him, because we have no idea. There's no evidence. Now, so we can discard that, not that it's necessarily false, but there's no basis for it. So then that leaves us with a second argument, that President Trump is not an idiot. There, I think, you would need evidence to support that claim. But let's leave that aside. President Trump is not an idiot. So he had to have seen that this war was going to be a disaster. Because he's not an idiot, and he had to have seen the war was going to be a disaster, then he must have been acting at Israel's behest, Israel's win.

47:58So let's examine those three propositions. Number one, he's not an idiot. Well, I won't say he's a complete idiot, but certainly in a large number of areas where he renders opinions, he is an imbecile. Maybe it came to whether or not he should purchase a new building in my neighborhood. His advice would be quite useful. but by the way, his father started in my neighborhood, Fred Trump. The Trump buildings are still up in my neighborhood, Coney Island. He was a notorious racist, Woody Guthrie, the folk singer, actually wrote a song about Fred Trump. But we'll leave that aside. So if you want real estate advice, I suppose his would be as good as anybody else's on the matter, But there are a broad number of areas where we can say he's completely and happily ignorant.

48:56Ignorance is bliss, and he's blissfully ignorant. Proposition number two. Let's assume he was very bright. For argument's sake, let's assume he was very bright. Hey, you want to know what? Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney were very bright. Very smart. Top of the line. Rich in government experience. When they entered the Bush administration, they had already been involved in government since the Nixon administration. So they had been involved already for about 30 years in government. They knew government upside down. And beyond that, and already that's a very robust fact, beyond that, they had staffed their whole national security establishment with very smart guys.

49:56Douglas Fyfe, Paul Wolfowitz, Scooter Libby, Richard Perl, top of the line. I'm not saying I like them, but credit given where credit due. I've said that many times. We shouldn't underestimate our enemies. They're very smart. Now, here's the thing. Why am I mentioning it? If you go back and read the record, they all thought Iraq would be a cakewalk. That's the expression they used. They all thought, as you remember, within weeks or months, President Bush was standing in an aircraft carrier with the words emblazoned on back, mission accomplished. So guess what? Very smart people, of whom I would not include Trump, but even if I did, very smart people can get it wrong.

50:57They got it wrong. Lyndon Johnson, I'm old enough to remember the war in Vietnam. Every few months he would say, I see light at the end of the tunnel. That was the famous line. I see light at the end of the tunnel. Now Johnson was a very, in politics, a very shrewd guy. His administration, you know what they called his administration? They were called the best and the brightest, and they really were. They were what you call or called back then the whiz kids, people like Secretary of Defense, Robert McNamara. They were the type who got 1 ,600 on their SATs and who went to the top schools and had extremely high levels of competence and conscientiousness.

51:57They got it wrong about Vietnam. And so even if you are very smart, which Trump is not, but even if you are, you can get it wrong. And we have, for those who care to remember, and it's not that long ago, though I have to acknowledge time has passed. It is 23 years ago. I remember the day the war was declared. I was at a demonstration. It was in March and it was very cold. I was in Chicago then. They got it wrong. Now, Tucker Carlson says there's only one explanation, Israel. I think there's a very simple, I don't want to say simple, but I think there's a very plausible alternative explanation.

52:52nation. Everybody knows that Trump has an oversized ego. Everybody knows Trump enjoys the pageantry of the office. Everybody knows that Trump doesn't very much care about the issues in and of themselves. He likes to flex his muscle. He likes to stride the globe like a giant. And at that point, after the successes he scored in Gaza, so much of his success that he thought he would be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for it, I should say apparent success, because the genocide, as I said, it's a slow-motion genocide, but it continues. And then what you might call, using biblical language, the immaculate coup in Venezuela.

53:57And then into that situation, there was a informational void around the president because he knew all of his appointees were sub-mediocre yes-men. In fact, that's why he appointed them, because they were sub-mediocre yes men. He wanted people who could never make him look

54:31pale beside them. I actually think he was not happy with those pictures of J.D. Vance walking erect up the staircase because, oh, he's trying to outshine me. That's how Trump thinks. He's a child. He's a child. So there was an informational void because he was surrounded not with, as Lyndon Johnson, the best and the brightest, not as with George Bush Jr., Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the lustrous neoconservative. Very smart guys. Very smart guys. He was surrounded with Jared Kushner, Steve Woodcoff, Pete Hegseth. You know, Pete Hegseth, he has more oil running through the strands of his hair than oil passing through the Straits of Hormuz on any one week.

55:49These are preposterous figures, preposterous figures. True, and to your point, intentionally so. Intentionally so, and so arrogant. You know, Jared Kushner stands there erect in his Ralph Lauren suit as if he's Talleyrand, as if he's Metternich. I mean, this guy, this guy gives affirmative action a bad name. No, really, he gives affirmative action a bad name. He doesn't have a bad name enough. He... gives it the worst name. Every step in his life has just been bought by his father. I mean, his father was such a crook. No, you really, this is extraordinary fact. His father was Jewish, obviously, and a billionaire, much richer than Trump, by the way.

56:49They were both real estate developers, much richer than Trump. And Chris Christie got him convicted and thrown into jail. Now, you have to be a crook's crook to be a Jewish billionaire in New Jersey and get thrown into jail. How did Jared get into Harvard? I suppose you know, but for the sake of your listeners, he got into Harvard because his father gave Harvard$2.5 million that year. There was no issue about that. When they went back and they asked his teachers, the guidance counselors, they all said the same thing. He didn't have the grades. He didn't have the test scores to get into Harvard.

57:36It was all bought. He's just white, in the most crude sense, white male privilege, but white billionaire. White male, wealthy privilege. Yes. Well, let me ask you this. Let me ask you this, to play devil's advocate here. Let me just complete the thought. Go ahead. So there was an informational void. And that's where Netanyahu stepped in to fill the void. He told Trump, it's going to be a pushover. There were those demonstrations in Iran. It's falling apart. Iran, the mullahs are standing on the precipice, a little jolt, and they'll fall over. We have all our agents in Iran. They're everywhere.

58:27And they're ready to organize regime change. And if it happens, you will go down in history as the greatest statesman to have ever occupied the White House. You know, he soups him up. Yep. That's a factor that Tucker Carlson leaves out. This president is obviously very susceptible to being souped up and is ready to be fooled because it feeds his ego, the prospects that have opened up, especially after Venezuela.

59:06and Trump's commitment to the national interest, as you might call it, as they perceive it,

59:17it's balanced significantly by his own ego. The national interest is there, in my opinion, for sure, but his own ego looms as large and sometimes larger than the national interest. So I think there's a very simple explanation. You know, Aksham's razor, the simplest explanation is often the right one. We don't have to go to conspiracy theories. We don't have to go to other explanations, the Adelsons and this and that. I think the explanation based on Trump's conduct, his instincts, and in particular, in the double sense, his impulses, explain what happened. Well, and that would explain why he decided to do this war, even though other presidents, which have also been antagonistic towards Iran and have had pressure from Israel to go to war, why they decided not to because of the unique interplay of his sort of narcissism and egoism.

1:00:29And as you've said in other interviews, the way he has personalized the presidency. But let me just play devil's advocate. Let me just I just add one thing for the sake of your listeners, because I know, you know. Not so long ago, we did try Iran. We tried. The goal of the Cheney-Rumsfeld administration was Iraq, Syria, Iran. There was a consensus among everybody in the Bush administration that Iran had to be dethroned. There had to be, I hate that expression, but a regime change in Iran. They just thought it would be the third step along the way. But back then, there was a consensus in the Bush administration that we were going to go to war with Iran.

1:01:22It was just not this moment we first want to weaken Iraq or overthrow Iraq and Syria. So when you say previous administrations didn't try it, well, actually, they were getting there. They started with Iraq.

1:02:08one podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Anna Navarro, and on my new podcast, Bleep with Anna Navarro, I'm talking to the people closest to the biggest issues happening in your community and around the world. Because I know deep down inside right now, we are all cursing and asking what the bleep is going on. I'm talking to people like Julie K. Brown, who broke the explosive story on Jeffrey Epstein in 2018. These victims have been let down time and time again for decades and decades and decades by local law enforcement, by federal law enforcement, by administration after administration.

1:02:54The Justice Department, through I think we counted four presidential administrations, failed these victims. Listen to Bleep with Anna Navarro as part of the My Cultura podcast network. Available on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:03:31This is a podcast. We're recording it as we tailgate our youth soccer games in the back of my Honda Odyssey. With all the snacks and drinks. Sidebar, why did you get hard seltzer instead of beer? Oh, they had a BOGO. Well, then you got it. Do you want a white collar or something? Here, just hit it. What are y 'all doing? Microphones? Are you making a rap album? Oh, I would. Could you imagine? I would buy it. Cuts through the defense like a hot knife through sponge cake. That sounds delicious. Oh, you're lucky I'm not a drug addict. You're lucky I'm not an alcoholic. You're lucky I'm not a killer.

1:04:05I love this team, and I'm really trying to be a figure in their lives that they can rely on. Oh. Oh. Listen to Soccer Moms on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Dropside News did some polling and found that a majority of Americans believe that covering up the Epstein files was at least part of the motivation for going to war in Iran. And so the argument would basically be like, look, we know Israel does these blackmail operations. That's certainly undeniable. There's some reporting to suggest that they use the Lewinsky situation with Bill Clinton to try to coerce him in terms of negotiations that were ongoing at that time.

1:04:46So we know that they're certainly not above it, right? Then you have this, you know, the Epstein files partially revealed and Trump's name throughout them. And we know that he was best friends with Jeffrey Epstein for over a decade. So isn't it reasonable to put two and two together and say, Israel may have something on him or Trump may think that Israel has something on him that is damaging enough that it provides them some some leverage to further push him in this direction beyond what is, you know, what he perceives as the national interest and what he perceives as his potential for military glory and great man historical impact.

1:05:24This reminds me of the saying, if grandma had wheels, she'd be a baby carriage. There are just too many ifs here. I'm not sure I've heard that one before. Okay. It's for my generation, which is many generations past yours. there's just no evidence for it. It's possible. Many things are possible. I can give you an infinite regression of possible scenarios. I have to say that, and here I'll be serious, although I try to be serious, though not grave. I like seriousness with an element of humor. there's a real problem with the current generation it's rife in ways I believe unprecedented in my lifetime it's rife with conspiracy theories about everything I was yesterday talking to a fellow on the boardwalk of Coney Island, I was going on my walk and we're having a conversation he knew me by reputation public reputation and at some point he says what do you think of the Illuminati what do you think about the Masons and I tried very patiently and not patronizingly to say I don't think we have to go there to try to explain what's going on in the world Now, I get very angry emails from people who are irate that I don't believe the Israelis killed John F.

1:07:27Kennedy. That's become a new thing. I want to emphasize a new thing. there's always been speculation about who killed the JFK and I checked it yesterday I was curious because I myself was one of those who killed JFK sleuths if you google you'll find that there were approximately 1 to 2 ,000 books written on the Kennedy assassination Wow. And if you factor in books which touch in the periphery of this assassination, the number goes up, believe it or not, Crystal, to 40 ,000. Wow. Yes. I did not read all of them. I did not read nearly all of them. But for a youngster, when Kennedy was killed, I was in fifth grade.

1:08:30I read many of them. I was curious. The most famous, which was in the Times bestseller list, if I believe for quite a long time, when the bestseller list meant something, now it's nothing. It's just you purchase your name on it, was Mark Lane's Rush to Judgment. There was Harold Weisberg's Whitewash. I remember the titles. I read them, and I was convinced it was a cover-up. But here's the thing. You can go through those 2 ,000 titles, 1 to 2 ,000. You can go through the 40 ,000. Israel will never appear there. It was not even an issue. It suddenly became, because I think there are two reasons for this.

1:09:22Number one, as you know, because you're a podcaster and you struggle to, like in roller derby, elbowing to get to the head of the pack, you realize that there is nobody on the left in the upper tier of the podcast world. the closest you get is somebody like Mehdi Hassan, who's not really a person of the left and probably wouldn't even describe himself as a person of the left. The big names are Elon Musk. I was surprised, Jackson Hinkle. Of course, Candace Owens. You know the list. And these kinds of conspiracy analyses They are a hallmark of the right wing. The left always prides itself on what it called, for better or for worse, maybe it's a cliché, a historical materialist analysis.

1:10:26That's what we used to call it, a historical materialist analysis. That's gone. You just have an if this, an if that, an if this. Listen, I can't tell you the kinds of emails I'm getting from people who are so angry at me for saying Israel didn't. Look, I don't think Israel killed Lincoln. I don't. You're going to get some angry emails about that one too? Yes, now I will get the thread of why I say that. And so there's that, the fact that the right wing dominates the web right now. And there is no, in the upper tier, there is no rational, historical, quote unquote, materialist podcasters out there at that level.

1:11:24And the other thing is your generation. I'm not one of those disposed to be excessively critical of your generation and the generation after yours. I find my students to be very morally serious, probably more so than my generation. And I find their minds to be very nimble. So there's no problem there. The problem is the lack of practical skills, reading skills, the lack of mental discipline to sit through a full book, and the lack of a historical sense. For me, it's a subject of curiosity that when I was a young man, a person of the left, when we met people from the 1930s, the great anti-fascist and socialist movements in the United States, Communist Party, Socialist Party, and so forth, we were brimming with curiosity.

1:12:34What was it like to be in the Communist Party? What was it like to organize the steelworkers, organize the miners? Those were Herculean world historic tasks and victories. I don't think I've ever met anyone who asked me a single question about what the anti-Vietnam War movement was like. the only thing your generation people on the left who call themselves on the left i don't believe they are in most cases but the only thing they like is the black panthers because it's so telegenic you know the beret the cinematic the leather coats you know it's all theater But the concrete work of transforming our society in significant ways with the civil rights movement, you know, the people in SNCC who most, your listeners, I suppose, I don't want to be too presumptuous, people like Bob Moses.

1:13:41I mean, these people were really very impressive figures. Nobody knows. So in this historical vacuum, it's not surprising that these theories would come in. Anybody who lived through the Iraq War, which is, they said, okay, it's not yesterday, but it's 23 years ago. It's just everything old is new again. Every phrase, regime change, mad mullahs, cakewalk. I was rereading a chapter I wrote in the book on the subject and I was drunk. How was all the same? Nobody needed to think. Well, I should say there were conspiracy theories that it was Israel that dragged us into the Iraq war in 2003, but I don't believe there's any evidence for that.

1:14:32I've read everything there is in the subject. I really have. There's no evidence of it. I won't run through it now if you care to ask me, I will, but there's no evidence. So I think that that's a real problem. When you give me a question, you say, well, if this and if that, and if this and if that, and then you said, well, then if two and two make four, I didn't see one two, let alone two twos, and I don't know where you got four from. All I got was this wild speculation about, well, if Jeff Epstein was a pervert, and if he had dirt and all these other guys, and if he knew Donald Trump, and if Donald Trump, there's no evidence.

1:15:31Well, the thing that frustrates me is - Everybody writes me, why in the fact is leading to the Iraq war, why didn't you mention Jeff Epstein? Well, there's a simple reason why. I don't see any evidence yet. And you could say, well, that's the only plausible explanation. But there are a lot of very simple explanations. Yeah. And I think that's the most important part of your analysis, because what frustrates me is the it's all Israel's fault in terms of the Iran war. Look, obviously, everyone is acknowledging here that Israel has their own goals. They've wanted the war us to get in the war with Iran.

1:16:15There's no doubt about that, that Netanyahu is trying to persuade Trump, et cetera. But number one, it deprives Trump of agency, makes him like he's just some puppet who has no autonomy or no choice. And it also ignores the fact that the interest of U.S. empire and the fact that, as you rightly point out, every president has effectively been adversarial towards Iran. You know, you did have the JCPOA under Obama. That was a different approach. I think it was one of the best accomplishments he had in his presidency, but it was immediately ripped up by Trump. And then Biden with Blinken chose not to get back in.

1:16:52So I think those points are extremely important and well said. But Norm, it's always great speaking with you. We'll have to set a date for another interview where we talk about the anti-war movement in Vietnam and what that was like and what worked most effectively because I think those lessons from the past would in fact be very valuable for today. But it's always great to see you, Norm. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Bye-bye. All right, that does it for us here today. Thank you guys as always for watching. Sagar and Emily will be on tomorrow, so they will see you then.

1:17:39Peace to the planet. Charlamagne Tha God here. And listen, we are back. The Black Effect Podcast Festival is back in Atlanta on April 25th at Pullman Yard. Yeah. And the full lineup is nuts. We got the Grits and Eggs podcast, Deontay Kyle and Big Ice Cup Cat. We got Club 520 with Jeff Teague and the gang. Don't call me white, girl. Mona will be there. Keep it positive, sweetie, with Crystal Renee. We got Reality with the King with Carlos King. And yes, Drink Champ will be in the building. Plus, you know, we're going to have a lot of guests. So you need to join us. And we got the Black Effect Marketplace, the picture podcast, and everything you expect from the Black Effect Podcast Festival.

1:18:17Tickets are on sale right now. Go get yours at blackeffect.com slash podcast festival. Don't play yourself, okay? Pull up.

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