6/1/26: Congress Tries To Intertwine US & Israeli Militaries, Graham Platner Scandal, Cenk Banned From UK

23:17Yeah, and I'm sure people would expect me to be on some soapbox here. But honestly, I mean, this is entirely fitting with everything that we know about Graham Plattner. who is as typical of a Marine who served in Iraq as humanly possible. If you've ever watched this series, Generation Kill, or read the book, I highly recommend the book. It's one of the best books ever written about the war. Grubbiner is basically a character in either that book and or that series. So if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend it. Especially fitting with his, a lot of it is Reddit-tier gossip, and where he was boasting about jerking off in a port-a-potty.

23:56Literally, out of something like in Generation Kill. I don't know that he was boasting about it.

24:01Jeffrey Sachs:Or just stating the realities of serving abroad. What life was like for him while he was posted abroad. I was laughing while watching, because I was like, dude, this is like Generation Kill. I was like, it's like a time shot out of the 2003 book that it was set in. But yeah, zooming out, here's the deal, right? With Graham, it's between him and his wife. And so did I think what he did was bad? Yeah, I think it's horrible. However, she's chosen to forgive him and to stay with him. I believe that they're currently trying for a baby. And ultimately, look, I'm pro-marriage. I'm also pro-babies. And so, you know, the marriages are difficult.

24:33I don't condone this behavior. I think it's bad. But the fact that she wants to stick with him, yeah, I think I wouldn't say great or not. It's value neutral, and that's up to her. That's up to him. In terms of the discourse, I am fascinated by this because am I living in some Pollyannish world where we thought that our politicians were like the most upstanding moral citizens. Donald Trump is president of the United States. And then if we were to take a look at some of Plattner's colleagues, why don't anybody Google Ruben Gallego divorce or Chris Murphy, one of the people we're about to talk about here who himself recently got some interesting circumstances or Ken Patton.

25:14In fairness to Chris Murphy,

25:16Jeffrey Sachs:he is taking Graham's side. Right, no, I know he is. So he's not being a hypocrite at least on this. I'm giving a survey of the people who are in the United States Senate. Ken Paxton, a literal serial adulterer embroiled in a financial corruption scandal involving his mistress as the Republican nominee for Senate down in Texas. Some of my favorite presidents, it's repulsive. FDR died at a home with his mistress, okay? JFK, Google, JFK, 19-year-old girl, White House. It's horrific. the LBJ literally orgies on Air Force One. I'm not saying this is some sort of titillating thing. I'm just giving you an example of like, yeah, I mean, sometimes it's just about who the leader is and what they're gonna do for you.

26:00And sometimes you gotta stake a step back and say, all right, now the bigger question I think comes down to judgment. Did he show bad judgment? Yes. Now that said, do the people who presume and present as some public upstanding moral citizen and then it secretly are also having like insane turmoil in their current life and then perpetuating policies, which you don't like. Is that better? I mean, that's a question for all Americans to decide.

26:26Jeffrey Sachs:But this is such an important point, Sagar, that you're hitting on here. Like, OK, this is a scandal. But Susan Collins backing the Iraq war and now being in the Senate long enough to also back the Iran war and sending young men and women off to die, including Graham Plattner's you know, comrades who he served with, you know, that's not a scandal. That's not a problem in judgment. I mean, the way we view morality, or at least the way that sort of the Beltway media views morality to me is really upside down in terms of what you would want in a public servant. Now, you could decide whether this is the type of person that you would want to like, you know, be married to.

27:08Jeffrey Sachs:Amy Gertner knows the full picture and said, yes, I do. I love this man. We're going to work through it. We're going to go through marriage counseling. That is a different question. But, you know, as another example, Chuck Schumer decided to attend this Israel Day parade with freaking Bezalel Smotrich, who is the most grotesque war criminal you can possibly imagine. Is that a scandal? Is that, you know, titillating media outlets and leading news coverage on CNN, et cetera? No, of course not. So, look, I'm curious what you think the political fallout will be. I have a feeling voters in Maine are going to shrug this off like they've shrugged off all of the other things that were supposed to be disqualifying for Graham Plattner.

27:46Jeffrey Sachs:I do think he has a bit of a not to compare him and Trump, because I don't think, you know, the landscape is is exactly the same. But I do think he has a bit of a Trumpian quality where he can push through, quote unquote, scandals in a way that other politicians can't get away with. And because he has so effectively communicated the message and the position of the Democratic base and really not just to the Democratic base but to the broader public that people want to hear about checking oligarchic power, that that is compelling enough for people to be like, yeah, let's just overlook this messy personal stuff.

28:24Look, I'm putting my analyst hat on. I mean the idea that this is going to be some scandal in me, it's so ridiculous. Like I'm sorry. Ryan made a great point. There are only a few hundred thousand people who vote in Maine. You could actually conceivably meet most of the politically engaged people in that state. And Graham knows many of them. It's a small state. Like, this is not Texas. This is not California, where the media culture matters more than anything, because that's the only way that you're going to be able to meet somebody, right? Or social media, or any of these. This is actually, like, some of the last vestiges of literally, like, barnstorming every county or whatever.

29:01Sorry, Maine. I'm not that familiar with your structure. But I think - I think they're counties. I think so, too. I never know with some of these places, parishes, whatever. So with Maine, it's a small, a tiny state. It has a very, very small number of people who are actually politically engaged. As far as I know, literally, it has only one major city. So it doesn't seem that hard to actually go around and meet people, to hold events. And ultimately, America is telling us a very clear message. from Paxton to Plattner to Trump, your personal life and your upstanding moral character does not matter.

29:36What matters is what are you going to do for me? And I think, by the way, I don't think that's necessarily a good thing, but I do think it is reflective of an establishment culture where we had people who were presentable, you know, presentably outward facing, quote, upstanding moral people who got us into, I mean, look, W, all right? W is a good example. W, as far as I know, he didn't cheat on his wife. He was a recovering cocaine addict and a drunk. He found God and he was touched and all that. He was a disaster. I think he's a good guy. I really do, like in terms of his own personal character.

30:09But as you just said about Iraq, I mean, that didn't translate to good judgment. That didn't translate to being a good president. It was a complete fucking disaster. That's part of the reason why Trump became president. Yes, and immoral, of course. But I'm saying like what we often took - Personal morality. Personal, I'm trying to think, of other people who presented that way, where these politicians that a lot of people fetish... Jimmy Carter, perfect. Oh my God, perfect, right? Jimmy Carter. He was, yeah, the saint, Habitat for Humanity. He was a disaster, an absolute disaster. I made this case actually before Trump, but let me make, I'll give you the counter to this.

30:49Before Trump, Lex Friedman, you can go and look it up. We had a long exchange about whether the personal character of a president matters. And I said, no. I said, no, it doesn't. And I said, there's so much history whenever we go back. And look, I just talked about JFK. I talked about LBJ. I talked about FDR. I talked about Grant, who himself was a fool, fell for a number of different financial scams, literally. Almost died penniless. And that's part of the reason I had to write his memoir. A lot of these people display bad judgment in deep and horrible ways of their personal life, where if I knew people personally, I would judge the hell out of them.

31:22However, they ended up doing great things. But I made that case about Trump. Now, I could also say that Trump's venality and his obsession with himself, I think, has been a disaster. But that's an important point.

31:33Jeffrey Sachs:It's not the womanizing. Yeah, right. I don't care about that. It's that venality. It's the narcissism. It's the self-dealing. And it's the corrupt behavior that has been there throughout his entire – I mean he is a con artist. That is what he, at his core, is great at doing. He's great at creating an illusion and selling that illusion. That is the character failing that I think has been, you know, really devastating and does actually matter in terms of the, you know, the way that Trump has conducted himself in office. Yeah, I take your point. And part of what was the devil's bargain? The devil's bargain was, yeah, we know he's a narcissistic, self-dealing casino con man.

32:15We think it's different than I just laid out all of Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney seems like a good guy. Built his wife an elevator when she had MS. He's got a giant family port. Mitt Romney's family life is exactly what I want my family life to look like, as opposed to somebody like Donald Trump. All right. If I'm ever, you know, cheating on my way, bragging about my sexual ex-voice in New York Post, please put a bullet in my head. Right. So that's that's I would much rather look like Romney. But would I want to live under a country like Romney? No, actually. And so, look, I mean, you're not wrong.

32:48But I will say, you know, with Plattner, in terms of his record, we don't know. A lot of it is promises. He's a lot like John Fetterman in terms of his upstart nature. He's never held public office. He certainly has. Fetterman actually had held public office. Yeah, that's fair. I don't know. Actually, no, good point.

33:04Jeffrey Sachs:Fetterman had more of that. He hasn't had a stroke, though, which I do genuinely think is the reason why Fetterman has become a different person. It's possible. But I'm just saying, we don't know. The red flag with Fetterman was his position on Israel, which he basically just allowed. Was it to Israel at that time? I don't remember. Ryan did the reporting on this. Fetterman just basically went to, I think it was DMFI and was like, tell me what you want my Israel position to be and I will adopt it. And that way you won't spend against me. So that and the whole like chasing down some, you know, unarmed black dude that he you know, that whole thing.

33:38Jeffrey Sachs:There were some red flags there. But I another point, Sagar, that I think is is worth considering just as we're making the Trump comparison is, you know, when Trump first came on the scene, the fact that the Republican establishment, which was hated, was so aggressively against him was a signal to a lot of voters, Republicans and otherwise. that, oh, he like they judged him by his enemies. You know, the fact the media hated him, the Republican establishment hated him, the liberal establishment hated him. They're like, oh, there must be something there. And I think that there's a bit of that with Graham right now with the Democratic Party, because I'd have to dig into the numbers.

34:16Jeffrey Sachs:But the more that came out about his Reddit, whatever, and his tattoo, et cetera, the more he searched in the polls. And so I think there we have a Democratic base, certainly, that is disenchanted with Democratic leadership. So when they saw like, oh, Chuck Schumer does not want this guy. That means I do want this guy. And I think that one of the biggest risks for him going into the general election was the Democratic brand is such trash. You know, the minute you have Chuck Schumer coming to campaign for you or whatever, voters may go, oh, I don't know if this is really what we're going for. So in a weird way, I think the fact that he continues to generate these cycles of upset against him, I think it could have a similar effect as, you know, what happened with Trump.

34:58Jeffrey Sachs:where people looked at the fact that the media and liberal establishment, Republican establishment all hated him so much and said, oh, this guy, this guy is over the target. Because I've even seen some, you know, some sort of anti-Israel conservatives who have been defending him and effectively saying like, oh, we all know why he's being attacked so aggressively. Yes, it's true. Because of his position on Israel and also his position on oligarchy, which are both anathema to the, you know, established order. Who can deny that this is, it's so obvious. It's just all about Israel. If you hate the guy because he's against Israel, then just say it.

35:36Don't invent all this bullshit. Not when Trump, the three-time philanderer, is president and you guys worship the ground. He walks on, shut the fuck up. Like, this is the stuff that just drives me absolutely crazy. And I'm telling you this again, as somebody, I would love to live in a more moral world. I would love to live in a place where cheating on your wife is like a gigantic scam. It should be, okay? hey, you should be humiliated for it, which, you know, I guess he has. His wife has forgiven him. That's her business. But beyond that, it's like, that's not how the country is feeling right now.

36:06Like, message after message after message. If you can stand up for what I want, then we don't care how you generally conduct yourself in your personal life. And you're absolutely right to compare it to Trump. Remember, the grabbing by the pussy tape was supposed to literally be a campaign ender. A lot of people thought that. Nobody could survive it. It hardened Trump's support. It hardened it. When, who was that woman in New Hampshire? I'm totally blanking on it. Ayotte, Kelly Ayotte, the senator? Yeah, yeah. Right? She's like, oh, we gotta denounce him. Paul Ryan, he wins. He not only wins, but then we do all these, remember all those soul-searching interviews in the New York Times?

36:41They're like, we went to a diner in Ohio and they say the tape doesn't bother them. Yeah, no shit, right? You know, in retrospect, because for them, we tried Romney, we tried W, we tried McCain. He was a war hero. All of this, loss, loss, loss, loss. Trump was the only one. He stood up on immigration. He stood up on trade. Those are the two things that we care about. We need to stand up against the left. That's how Plattner is, right? D plus 14 in terms of Maine on the generic ballot. Need I say more? This is all bullshit. Now, actually, Matt Iglesias wrote a piece about this. I read it, you know, a glimpse into the centrist's mind.

37:19And he's like, you know, he's like, Plattner, even though he's a Democratic nominee, presumptive, is just obsessed with going to war with the party's establishment. And I was like, yeah, dude, that's the point. Like, that's the whole point of his candidacy. And also, at this point, Plattner's gotta be thinking a little bit about how do I wanna govern? Like, how do I actually want to be a United States senator? And it's very obvious, not just in terms of the voters who obviously desire something like this, but he wants to do something very different than how the currently people in office are. And that is simply the age we live in from Republican to Democrat.

38:00There's why Paxton, by the way, I think Paxton would have won even if Cornyn had been endorsed by Trump. Texas GOP fed up with John Cornyn. Establishment, been here forever. You know, oh, he doesn't even know what he's doing. Like we live in a very anti-establishmentarian age. And Plattner is just another example of that, the latest iteration of somebody to come out. So, no, I don't think it will hurt him whatsoever in terms of his polling. And if anything, we'll have a Trump like effect of making people feel like they're out to get him, especially because his wife doesn't even care. Like if his wife cared and they were getting a divorce, that's kind of different.

38:36But come on, like, what are we doing?

38:38Jeffrey Sachs:Yeah, they're they're like you said, they're actively having trying to have a baby right now and struggling with fertility is something that many, many couples struggle with. We should probably I don't really feel like playing Cory Booker or Michael LaRosa, but suffice it to say that you've got them and Neera Tanden and others who centrist Democrats are supposed to be vote blue no matter who, who all of a sudden are like, oh, I don't know about Graham Platt. Or it's like, dude, you know, do you mean what you say about Donald Trump and about the problems that he has created and the threat that he represents to the country and the world?

39:07Jeffrey Sachs:If you do, then there's no problem here. And of course, the it's the obvious parallels to Zoran Mamdani, who is as squeaky clean as you could possibly get. And still you had Chuck Schumer refusing to endorse him and other, you know, Kirsten Gillibrand coming out and calling him a jihadist. You know, there's it's not an accident that the candidates who are critical of Israel in a way that goes against the Democratic establishment are the ones that suddenly they get reservations about, oh, I don't know if I can get behind this particular person. So anyway, you've had a lot of that with Graham. But I do want to play his response to make sure we get that on the record.

39:47Jeffrey Sachs:He actually claims and I want to listen to his wording here carefully. He claims that some of what is reflected in The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times articles is not exactly accurate, but he doesn't really elaborate on what that means. It appears that he and Amy have both accepted that these text messages are a real thing that that happened. But in any case, let's go ahead and play six so we can hear Graham's response. Graham, we heard Amy's video, saw Amy's video last night about this situation, the story in The Times and The Journal. What would your statement be at this point? It's no surprise to me that the establishment media outlets are just going to run gossip instead of wanting to talk about the things that actually matter in this race, which are the material realities that the Mainers are working with.

40:31These people are going to try to make this race about anything but what it's supposed to be about, which is policy. They never want to talk about policy. Amy and I have a very loving and very happy marriage. They would very much like to try to rip that apart. all right, we're going to come after us in every awful way that they possibly can. And we're just going to keep talking about the fact that the hospitals are closing, the fact that child care facilities are closing, the fact that teachers and nurses aren't paid enough, and the fact that everybody down here continues to work harder and longer and get less.

41:03But, of course, the powers that be do not want us to talk about that. And so they're going to just do gossip instead. But the stories are true, right, about the texts? No. No, this is the amazing part. The Wall Street Journal and the New York Times ran stories without any evidence besides the gossip from a former staffer. I'm sorry. That's frankly journalistic malpractice. We pushed back on it. They won it. They did it anyways. I know that you have a question.

41:32Jeffrey Sachs:So are you confirming that the messages did not exist? What's that? The messages, they did not. I'm confirming that what Genevieve McDonald said in the New York Times is not true. So you never met with her about uncomfortable, for lack of a better word, sexting messages as the campaign was going? We talked about things in Amy and I's marriage that we've gone through over the years. We talked about that because that's our marriage. And we discussed it with the campaign. What Genevieve McDonald claims isn't true. So I'm not sure exactly what he means by that. And I think it's a bit of a mistake to open up this door because now you just raise more questions about like, OK, well, what do you mean?

42:10Jeffrey Sachs:Well, what part is not true? and it just continues the story. His campaign came out. Take your lumps, you know, and say like the initial messaging of like, this is not what people care about. True. Right. And then, you know, this is our, this is a private matter in our merits that we've worked through and we're moving forward. Opening up this line of inquiry of like, okay, well, what part of it is true? Well, what part of it is not true? Well, what about the this and the that? I, you know, I don't think that that was a smart move on his part. It was ridiculous. He was like, oh, his campaign came out and was like, well, the part about Genevieve McDonald, that part wasn't true.

42:48We're not saying that. It's like, dude, just cut your losses, man. Yeah. Pull a Trump. Locker room talk. Whatever. Get over it. In fact, you should turn it on the journalist. Be like, are you a pervert? Do you enjoy reading my sexual messages? Which one was your favorite? That's what I'm serious. I wouldn't be in this position. But that's what I would do. If I were a comms director, I'd be like, oh, you're a sick, disgusting pervert. Like looking at pictures of me shirtless and be like, are you gay? That's what I would do. But, you know, nobody wants to take advice from me. Free advice for the Plattner campaign.

43:19All right. Cenk Uygur, standing by. Let's get to him. Number one hits, millions of records sold, awards, sold out tours. You think the Jonas Brothers are satisfied? Nope. It's podcast time. We get to ask other people questions because we're sick and tired of being asked questions. Hey Jonas is available now and their first guest is a big one, Paul Rudd. You know, Steve Carell is a great singer. Can he tell you not to audition at The Office or something? I told him. Whoa. We were filming Anchorman. Clearly I was the idiot. Thank God he didn't listen to me, right? Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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45:59Jeffrey Sachs:So we have a very special guest this morning, founder of TYT, Cenk Uygur, who has a little personal story that he would like to share with our audience because it certainly has relevance to, I think, all of us. Cenk, great to see you as always. Good to see you, man. Good to see you guys. Yeah, so tell us what's been going on. Yeah, so I went to the airport yesterday. I'm going to London. I'm going to speak or was going to speak at South by Southwest London and then in Oxford a couple of times, one speech by myself. And then one speech with my nephew, Hassan Piker, was going to be a kind of an interesting moment.

46:32My sister was coming. It's a good moment for her. Right. And and I get to the airport and they tell me that I've been rejected by the British government and they won't let me board the plane. And I honestly had no idea what they were talking about in the beginning. I'm like, what do you what do you mean? No, I already have a visa. and they're like sorry their british government says you're not alone not allowed in the country and only 20 minutes later did i see the article from times of london explaining why although we all knew didn't we i mean at first i thought it was like a bureaucratic snafu then when i realized it was an active decision we all knew that israel had made it and then of course uh ironically they said well you say that western governments control israel israel controls the western governments too much.

47:17So since Israel controls us, you're now banned.

47:20Jeffrey Sachs:On behalf of Israel, we are going to ban you for saying that Israel has so much influence on our governments. And I mean, it's crazy because, well, do you know anything specific about what you said that they found to be so objectionable? You and, by the way, Hassan, also banned from the country, going to speak also at South by Southwest and with you at Oxford. Do you have any specifics about what it is that the two of you have said that's just so unconscionable that you can't even be allowed on British soil? Yeah, I mean, that's, first of all, let's note that I think we're the only family that has been banned from Britain, had two family members banned from Britain.

47:57So I guess that makes us the most dangerous family in British history. I don't know. This is so hilarious and absurd. But at the same time, look, when I got that news at the airport, I felt like a little bit of my freedom had been taken away, my freedom of movement, and it didn't feel good. And and we can't have our open societies not be open anymore. And so this is outrageous. So they said, Crystal, that according to the Times of London, because they've never talked to me directly, that I said that Israel controls the American Congress because they've given the most in this last election cycle.

48:36The Israeli lobby has. And they said that's incorrect. That's actually correct. That is a factual statement. So they literally banned me for saying something that is true. So theoretically, almost every news person should be banned. Although to be fair, as most of them are mainstream media, and so they don't state that fact. They hide that fact. But yeah, and by the way, where do I get it from? From a British publication, The Guardian said that 94 % of Congress has gotten campaign contributions from the Israeli lobby. That is a stunning number. They're also the number one lifetime donor to Donald Trump, Joe Biden, Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer, Mike Johnson.

49:11So to say that the Israeli lobby does not have influence or massive influence or really control when they win every single vote in Congress would be to be counterfactual. So it doesn't get any more absurd than being banned for saying things that are empirically true. Here's the other thing. Why do they care? If you say something about Israel controlling you of Congress, you didn't say. I mean, maybe you said parliament, although it might be true too now. In this particular case, to ban, you know, you're a United States citizen. I don't even check about visa when I go to the UK, okay? It's visa upon arrival, so-called special.

49:47You know, last time I went, you didn't even need to talk to anybody. Just scan your passport, and you can walk in to the city of London. And so you get there to the airport. You find out you're being banned. You have no communication. But let's take it a step further. I believe our vice president criticized European governments for heavily censoring their own citizens. I agree with that criticism. Has anybody from the State Department reached out on your behalf to make sure you're going to facilitate your entry into the UK? No, not yet. So I'll tell you the one guy who has done something is, you're not going to be shocked, Ro Khanna.

50:21He's already on it and he's reached out to the British ambassador and asking for an answer. and I am curious about it because there there is no logical answer here for why I've been banned I mean they try to pretend that it's anti-semitism but I've never said anything anti-semitic so they're like well I guess your criticism of Israel is by definition anti-semitic but if that's true then you're literally going to have to ban billions of people from Great Britain because that's who is critical of Israel. Over 61 % of this country is critical of Israel. So what level of absurdity are we going to?

50:59And to your point, Sagar, you know, there's this phrase thrown around, special ally. You know, they say it about Israel and sometimes they say it about the UK. And so I know, and you're right. I never said anything about the British parliament. I never said anything about the British government. So they're not banning me for criticizing the British government, although I do now. So congrats. Yeah. And I made factual statements about the American government. That's why I got banned. But wait a minute. So apparently Israel is such a special ally of Britain that they'll even ban Americans. Like we are an inferior ally to Israel, apparently, because American citizens will get banned if they so much as criticize the most special ally of all for apparently almost all Western governments.

51:47So how is this not absurd, guys? I mean, look, one more thing about that. Israel's population is almost identical to the population of Papua New Guinea. Right. So if anyone was being banned for criticizing Papua New Guinea, it would be obviously irrational, like the most ludicrous thing you've ever heard. And they say, nope, nope. When you do it about Israel, it makes sense. It doesn't. It's not normal. It's super weird. And it gives the game away. It's the mask off moment.

52:21Jeffrey Sachs:Yeah. Well, and I followed your coverage long enough to know that, you know, there are a lot of countries that you've been critical of. I'm sure you've been critical of Russia, Saudi Arabia. No one says, oh, you're critical of Saudi Arabia. So you're anti-Muslim or you're Islamophobic. Nobody says, oh, you're critical of Russia. So you're anti-Christian. No one says, oh, can't come to my country because you said something mean about a different nation. And with Israel, look, we've listened to the Secretary of State Marco Rubio say, hey, you know, part of the reason we're in this war here is because we knew Israel was going to attack Iran and we couldn't or wouldn't stop them.

52:57Jeffrey Sachs:So that's why we're in the war. We heard Donald Trump say something very similar, that we were in this war with Iran because of Israel and others in the Gulf who wanted us to be in this war. So you are just echoing the words that are literally coming from the leaders of this country. Yeah, that's exactly right. It would be hilarious, though, if they banned Donald Trump. They're saying that, you know, that Israel, you said Israel controls you. So we are now banning you from coming to the UK. And guys, there's another component of this that's important. So you can look at it in a lot of different ways.

53:36You can say, look, and you're absolutely right. I've said very harsh things about the government of Russia, the government of Saudi Arabia, the government of UAE, the government of Turkey. So you don't get banned for any of these. And then they say, no, no, no, Israel doesn't have special privileges. Again, counterfactual, empirically incorrect. And in fact, when you add that extra lie on top, it makes us think, why are you lying straight to our face when we have eyes and ears? But beyond that, not only do I not say anything against Jewish people, on the show I actively say, I've said hundreds of times, this is not about Jewish Americans or Jews anywhere in the world.

54:16Governments do terrible things. If the Turkish government does something bad, it doesn't mean I did it as a Turkish American. It doesn't mean a Turkish citizen did it. And by the way, there are huge lobbies in this country that also control our government. Big Pharma controls drug policies. Big oil controls oil and energy policies. And it would be absurd to say that they don't. We can't negotiate drug prices. That's how thoroughly the drug companies control our government. And that's because we legalize bribery in America. So these are super important facts about the American government. And if you say you're not allowed to say the most important facts about the American government, otherwise we won't allow you into Britain.

54:56Well, what you're saying is that Great Britain is no longer a free country, period, right? And then if you say, no, no, Jake, you are allowed to say it about big pharma and defense contractors and oil companies, you're just not allowed to say it about the Israeli lobby. Again, you're giving the game away. You're saying they're the most important lobby and they have special and extra privileges that no one else on planet earth gets. And then one final thing about that, guys, if I tell everybody to not hate anybody who's Jewish in fact I say I love Jewish people I have Jewish family I have Jewish endless Jewish friends because I grew up in areas that were heavily Jewish and so I grew up with those guys my whole life my co-founders are Jewish on the Young Turks etc and if they say well that's the equivalent of a guy saying that Hitler is cool and you should hate Jews, well, then you've made – you've taken the power away from actual bigotry and anti-Semitism and fighting it.

55:54It's almost like a Jesse Smollett situation where they're screaming anti-Semitism when none exists and thereby cheapening the word and the concept and ironically doing damage to that cause. That's such an important point.

56:08Jeffrey Sachs:Well, and I know Hassan had pointed out that one of the previous speeches he gave at Oxford was on the topic exactly of how important it is to separate out Israel from the Jewish people. I mean, this is something that you both underscore and focus on all the time. I'm curious, you know, I had seen previously that there was I didn't follow it closely, but that there was some MP in particular who like was, you know, really gunning for Hassan specifically over some of his more controversial, I guess. statements. I mean, is that where this came from, do you think? And then, you know, they, once they realize like, oh, we're going to ban Hassan, they're like, oh, well, we've got, you know, his uncle, we're going to ban him too.

56:49Jeffrey Sachs:Where, what do you think is the train of, you know, how this all came together to result in banning both of you? And do you think that that would extend to like, you know, anyone who holds similar opinions, who's expressed similar things, either as influencers or online, et cetera. Yeah. So look, who it applies to is going to be fascinating. Professor Larry Lessig from Harvard is a good friend of mine. He helped me out a little bit yesterday and today. And what we found out is that these bans are almost never reversed. Am I really going to be banned from the United Kingdom for the rest of my life?

57:29Am I really an enemy of the crown? I mean, this is I keep saying this is absurd because I've this is as insane as it gets. So where is it coming from? Probably from the Israeli lobby. I mean, who else would have come from the Australian government, British citizens? Did they vote on this? My guess is I would win in a landslide if you actually ask the British citizens if my speech should be banned. My guess is that my speech is probably nearly identical to the majority of the British citizens in terms of what my opinions are. Are they going to start banning their own citizens? If you're a UK citizen and you leave the country, are they going to let you back in if you've criticized Israel?

58:11So is it that I'm a media figure? But what if you said something in social media? Does that count? or is it just any opinion you had that you stated to anyone will get you banned from britain if it's opposed to kazakhstan no i'm sorry israel of course i mean again fill in any other country and it's preposterous and then they say no if you tell us it's preposterous when it comes to israel we'll call you doubly anti-semitic no it's it's it's just insane and and look it's not shared by any of our citizens. The American citizens don't agree. British, Western, worldwide, no one agrees. The only people who want special privileges for Israel are government officials and, honestly, mainstream media.

58:57Yeah. I'll tell you, I'm very rarely shocked. When I heard that you guys were banned, I was stunned. This is the Anglosphere, our cousins. I mean, you don't even think when you get on a flight to the UK. I would think more getting on a flight to Saudi Arabia than I would on a flight to UK. And yet it's the flight to the UK which got you banned.

59:20Jeffrey Sachs:Yeah. Absolutely unbelievable. Yeah. How about that? Those Western values that were supposed to be, you know, that's the reason we're allied with Israel, right? We've got to defend Western values. And meanwhile, you know, they often cause us to trample on what those supposed Western values are. And of course, with their genocide, ethnic cleansing, constant bombing of other countries don't represent. certainly what I would want Western values to be. Now, maybe they do reveal the true Western values. That's a different conversation for another day. But Cenk, so great to have your insights and your first-person perspective on this.

59:52Jeffrey Sachs:We really appreciate you taking the time to join us. I know it's early in California, so extra thank you for that. We really appreciate it, Cenk. It's such an important thing. I think every American should hear about this. I really do. Thank you. I really appreciate you guys. And Crystal, that last point is so powerful. They say, oh, we're helping you with Western civilization. But first, you've got to get rid of your freedom of speech, your freedoms altogether and only represent us. No, that's not Western civilization at all. That's the exact opposite. And can you imagine being banned from the United Kingdom because you opposed the genocide?

1:00:26I mean, wow, how the world has changed. Sick. We'll see you later, man. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate it. Bro Show tomorrow. Don't miss that. Chris will be back on Thursday.

1:00:57We'll see you next time.

1:01:10Carell is a great singer. Can he tell you not to audition for The Office or something? I told him. Whoa. We were filming Anchorman. Clearly, I was the idiot. Thank God he didn't listen to me, right? Listen to Hey Jonas on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.