6/17/26: Feds Charge Anti-ICE Protesters, Vance Pressed On Epstein, AIPAC Tracker Pledge

24:19I am the guy who reported him to the police or one of the people who reported to the police. The president was frustrated about that. Absolutely. But he eventually came to say, you know what, let's just get everything out there. Let's have this out in the public. And he actually called the senators. I was there. He called the senators and said, you know what, pass this bill, I'll sign it. And that was it.

24:37Emily Jashinsky:And just a couple of hours later, he told Megyn Kelly that he believed the big New York Times story, Jonathan Swan, Maggie Haberman, about the Situation Room conversation regarding the Trump administration's plans for disclosure in the Epstein case. He said that there were certain things in there that, quote, legitimately made me worried that people were taping. And in the Situation Room, which is a felony, he said that story was very bizarre. It was sort of a nothing of a story in the sense that everybody started to know these details. But the fact that somebody had taped. So that seems to be some confirmation from J.D.

25:08Emily Jashinsky:Vance that it was taped, Ryan. Or certainly that it's all true. That's also the interesting. If there was any doubt as to whether or not what was reported by Swan and Haberman there is accurate, it's put to bed by Vance saying that it basically matches verbatim his recollection of the meeting, which means that they used the Situation Room to devise a scheme to cover up the Epstein files. Nobody is talking enough about the fact that this was in the Situation Room, first of all. Now, do I know how the Trump administration uses the Situation Room? No, but you're not supposed to be able to bring phones or recording devices in there.

25:46Emily Jashinsky:And actually what it sounds to me is like they were discussing a story with serious national security implications. Heard the drop site reporting in the Epstein case. Yeah, apparently there is national security implications to it. I don't think we're taking political meetings normally. Now, the Trump administration, not exactly normal. But I think it's pretty odd to be taking a meeting about political strategy in the situation room. But didn't it say Kash Patel and Bongino, or at least Kash Patel joined by speakerphone? Yes. I wonder who. I mean, I'm not accusing anybody of anything. But come on.

26:14If somebody is going to tape it, it's the dude on the speakerphone.

26:17Emily Jashinsky:Or presumably they were in a skiff. I don't know. Maybe they weren't. But yeah. He's at the club. He's at the club. Yeah, he was in Vegas. It was the guy with him at the club. The poodle lounge. Who recorded it. Yeah. Maybe he was in an Uber. He could have been. The New York Times dropped a major story about questions into Epstein's death. And this happened, I think, just within 24 hours of Vance going on this tour and answering Epstein questions. And it's a very, very long story. Many new interviews. Many new details in it. But a couple of the nut graphs here I'll just read from. They say our reporting establishes that Epstein showed a clear pattern of behavior in the weeks before his death, suggesting an intent to kill himself.

26:57Emily Jashinsky:The apparent suicide note memorialized Epstein's despair and desire to, quote, say goodbye on his own terms. That's referring to the suicide note that Tartaglione, his once cellmate, discovered, gave to his lawyers and talks about a bit in the story as well. Other writings from his final days, the Times continues, presented a picture of a fraying mental state that sharply contrasted with the upbeat picture he presented to jail psychologists, including another note in which he hinted at ending his life. In addition to this, we were told by a former cellmate that Epstein made more than one previously unreported attempt to craft a noose.

27:32Emily Jashinsky:And we located a former inmate, never before interviewed, who was housed in a neighboring cell at the time of Epstein's death and whose account circumstantially supported the conclusion that Epstein died by hanging himself. This cellmate says he heard Epstein tearing what sounded like sheets. He wouldn't have known that, but that's what he says. Consulting with an independent pathologist, we determined that a likely error in cataloging evidence from his cell created the appearance of mysteries regarding his injuries that were, in fact, potentially explained by other evidence from the scene that was overlooked at the time.

28:01Emily Jashinsky:They say what Michael Bodden, who was hired by Epstein's brother to observe the autopsy, said about some breaking around the neck area could have been because of the way that he attempted to hang himself with a noose connected to the bed. So, Ryan, this is going to be used as a way to undercut quote unquote conspiracy theorists. It's sort of always been true that Epstein could have legitimately killed himself. And a lot of this other stuff, as DropSite has reported from both the leaked emails and the released emails, is quite obviously still accurate and true. Some of the foreign dealings and the like that you've dug really deeply into.

28:43Emily Jashinsky:At the same time, also, there are coincidences in this New York Times story that kind of get some explanations. You know, what was going on with the guards? Why did the guards not do the rounds? Why did they appear to sleep? that you get some explanation for, but you don't have to buy those explanations because it's still very weird. Yes, it's true that they had cameras down for a long time. Still doesn't change the fact that they had a camera precisely missing that L-tier Epstein access point to his cell. It still doesn't change the fact that the guards were sleeping on the jobs, that they incorrectly lied on forms.

29:18Emily Jashinsky:So none of that stuff changes. And I'm willing to buy some of the story, actually, but there's still some big questions. Right. And they've got interviews with Nicholas Tartaglioni, the guy, the cop accused of, convicted of murdering four people, right? Yes. Strangling one of them who, after they determined that Epstein was a suicide risk, they made him his cellmate. A lot of people have said that they believe that he's the one that was then contracted basically to kill him. He tells the New York Times that when he came back from one of his hearings, he said, how do you make a noose? He says he caught him with a noose under his mattress once and told jail guards who laughed it off.

30:05Times says they can find no evidence of him telling that to jail guards. The counter argument is that Epstein had always wiggled out of everything, that his life was a series of obstacles that he overcame, and that it's not obvious that they had much new in the way of criminal activity, and he had a non-prosecution agreement in place. So he had a plausible legal path towards freedom. Now, it had taken him a long time to reconstruct his social standing after the first time in prison. Now he was facing global cancellation plus this. So the counter-counter argument is that on the other side of this, even if he got free, he'd have his money, but he wouldn't have what he really craved, which was being the guy at the middle of the party.

31:06Right. And so he could escape to France or whatever and continue to do... sex crimes with like 16 year olds.

31:14Emily Jashinsky:Yeah. And some of the evidence that that's not really, but he can't do with Bill Clinton anymore. Some of the evidence that the time story brings out is the way he was communicating with people close to him in the days before his death, leading up to his death, uh, are him seeming down actually kind of about that point that he's not going to be able to wiggle out of this one, that there's really not enough money in the world. Social death was, was, was upon him. Yeah. At one point he says like, you know, I'm paraphrasing. This is the height of Me Too and everything too. Yes. At one point he says something like, you can't, this is no way to live.

31:45Emily Jashinsky:Like there's no way to live in prison. And so he makes a. Compared to what he's used to. Yeah, exactly. And that seems to be what he's getting. In some of these communications, he makes a call that could be perceived as a goodbye call to his girlfriend at the time saying, I won't be able to talk to you for a month, blah, blah, blah. and he has this note that does seem to be his because Tartaglione saves it, gives it to his lawyers right away. So that looks somewhat legitimate that he did find the note that said, you know, what you gonna do, bust out crying, the joke that he often used to his brother.

32:18Emily Jashinsky:I think it's from Little Rascals. And yeah, I actually am willing to accept to some extent he felt like his life was over and that the walls were quite literally closing in on him and that he wasn't gonna be able to buy his way out of this that it had. And also for people who were like, no, it's impossible. They definitely killed him. Driving him to do this would also accomplish the same goal in a more effective way. Right. And some questions still remain. He didn't have a cellmate that night, which he obviously should have been a cellmate. There were questions being drawn about his mental state.

32:49Emily Jashinsky:So there's still some weird stuff going on, which in and of itself, to quote J.D. Vance, the fact that you have a man who is a sexual predator, who has all of these connections in the world of international politics and finance. It's weird. And then you add to this that there are all of these legitimate questions about what happened to him. Also weird. You can't dismiss any of that. So it just leaves us, I think, even once again with more questions than answers. But that is par for the course as we cover Epstein stories. All right. Let's bring in Ro Khanna and Corey from APEC Tracker. Yeah, that's right.

33:24Emily Jashinsky:Let's get to it. Hi, it's Karen in Georgia from My Favorite Murder. We cruised around L.A. in the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and dove into the fascinating life of actress and inventor Hedy Lamarr. Want the full story? Take a listen. Hedy, she starts dating Howard Hughes, the aviation tycoon. Do you know a lot about him? I mean, I watch The Aviator, so I know everything Leonardo DiCaprio has allowed me to know about him. But incredible innovator. Right. She says he's a, very strange man. But they do get along really well. Give us examples. I know. They do get along intellectually. And in fact, she helps him design a faster plane.

34:01She takes a look at what he's designed. It's got these square wings and she's like, that doesn't make sense. And so she finds the fastest bird and the fastest fish and sketches out a drawing of like what the two would look like as a plane. And that becomes the plane that we know today. And he calls her a genius. Check out our new episode spotlighting groundbreaking innovators like Hedy Lamarr and Billie Jean King. Presented by the Hyundai Ioniq 5. Goodbye. Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen, or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in.

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35:28Emily Jashinsky:I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything. It's the rage bait. It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News, reporting for America. Joining us now, we're going to have two guests. Representative Ro Khanna from California, Corey Archibald from APAC Tracker. Congressman Khanna, thank you for joining us. Good to be back on. And Corey, thanks for being here. Really appreciate it. Always good to be here. And Corey, you've got some interesting news that we're going to get to in just a moment.

36:19I want to get Congressman Kahn's reaction to it. Before we get to that real quickly, I wanted to ask you, Congressman, you had in the Armed Services Committee tried to strip out language that is fusing kind of U.S. and Israeli military and intelligence capacities. That amendment, that effort failed in committee. It's now head for the floor. This is starting to pick up an enormous amount of attention. I saw Trita Parsi and Tucker Carlson talked about it on his recent appearance on Tucker's podcast. A lot of people are pretty alarmed at the prospect of fusing the U.S. military intelligence capacities with the foreign government.

36:58What is what is the latest on this effort to block it from becoming part of the NDAA? Ryan, as you know, Section 224 would do an end run around any human rights check in providing weapons to Israel. What happened is Netanyahu realized that it's becoming more unpopular for Congress to just rubber stamp these sales. So he wrote a letter to two members of Congress in the House of Representatives, Republicans, saying, why don't we just have joint production of weapons? Why don't we have joint production of sales? So you have to basically give us the weapons, because there are weapons. When I introduced the amendment to strip 224, there was only awareness of a few days.

37:44And so people were just beginning to realize how problematic this provision is. Now more people realize it, thanks to your reporting, other reporting. So Thomas Massey and I are going to introduce an amendment to try to strip this from the House floor. When the NDAA comes up for a vote on the House floor, we want this amendment to strip it. First, we need it to be ruled in order. It's obviously in order. It's germane to the NDAA, but that is one issue. And then we will have a roll call vote on that amendment.

38:18Emily Jashinsky:I just have one quick question that's a follow-up on this, Congressman, which is, have you found other people who are maybe even pretty supportive of the alliance with Israel were surprised? Like, as you've started working with Congressman Massey to get this stripped from the NDAA, have you found people who might normally be pretty supportive of the alliance with Israel being like, what on earth is this? Or were they kind of like the hawks, defensive of it? Those who are in the middle, the independents, are surprised. The questions they ask are, do we have this kind of arrangement with other countries?

38:51Turns out, no. I have not found a single example of another country where we had a coordinated individual who is basically responsible for co-production of weapons across departments. And as this becomes more obvious, there are two concerns. There's, of course, the concern of the human rights to giving weapons to a country that is committing genocide. There is the secondary concern of the lack of American sovereignty. And on that secondary concern, you're getting a lot of people raising questions. All right. So, Corey, so APAC trackers, now iconic kind of red cards, have become, it turns out, something that really seems to get under the skin of politicians.

39:39And I expect Arsene Kahnik can confirm that from his private conversations with his colleagues. So much so that APAC even started a or some APAC offshoot started a like Islamist tracker or something and started making red cards that just mimicked yours. Is it Laurel Loomer? Yeah, there's a lot of copycats out there. It's funny in some ways and also disturbing in others. Yes. And so one problem, I guess, that will tell me where the idea came from to allow people who have in the past taken, you know, AIPAC or pro-Israel money, but have since changed and are committing not to, to kind of wipe away the red card.

40:26I think it's an interesting idea because if we are really and Graham Platter has a version of this where he says, you know, if we're going to transform the country, we have to allow people to transform themselves because like people make up the country. And so if you're going to transform our relationship with AIPAC in Congress, you're going to have to allow individual politicians to transform on the issue. So what is the pledge that people are being asked to take and how do you kind of guys come up with this idea? Sure, absolutely. So thank you again for having us on. This is a very exciting development for us.

41:01We have been thinking and working towards this for some time. The bottom line is that while we have created a very successful pressure campaign to highlight and expose the extent of the influence of AIPAC and their allies in our lawmakers, we also have a responsibility as an organization to give people a bridge to get on the right side of history and to reflect that their policy positions have changed and to chart a new course. And so the idea of the pledge is really born out of that. It's a very firm set of policy commitments that are very clear and spelled out that really just reinforce the commitment to enforcing U.S.

41:51law and countering foreign influence and ending our complicity in war crimes.

41:56Emily Jashinsky:And you've seen some response, interestingly enough, Ryan and I were just chatting about this before we started the segment, from people on the right, some of the folks on the right, especially on the younger right, who are much more skeptical of the American alliance with Israel. And I just wanted to ask you what you've seen, how significant you've seen, if it's significant at all, some folks sharing AIPAC tracker stuff actually from the right and maybe actually using it to some effect, particularly on social media. We definitely see it shared by people all across the political spectrum, right, left, you know, mainstream Democrats.

42:32Ironically enough, our largest cohort of supporters are the Democratic wine moms by and large. But we see it shared among people on every single part of the political spectrum because this has become really a litmus test for our politicians. And this is something I think that Ben Rhodes said about a year ago when they were having a conversation on Pod Save America, he said that voters are not going to think that you're, take you seriously about health care if they think that you're full of crap about Gaza. And that is exactly what we have seen reflected in the kind of social dialogue. And Congressman Conor, let's roll through the pledge a little bit and see, I'm getting your take on how palatable you think this will be to kind of an average member of Congress.

43:20It starts out by saying you're not going to take money from APAC, Democratic Majority for Israel, which is an APAC offshoot, Republican Jewish coalition, Christians United for Israel. And then any affiliated PACs are kind of highly coordinated activity that kind of goes around those PACs. It says basically then says you'll acknowledge there was a genocide in Gaza. It says you'll respect the Leahy laws, which which say that we, you know, we cannot fund a foreign military unit that has been plausibly engaged in in human rights abuses. It pledges actually to oppose what you were just talking about at the top of the segment, Section 224, to oppose the fusion of any foreign military intelligence services with the U.S.

44:08Notice it's it covers all foreign governments, not not just Israel. I pledge to support and promote accountability for those who misused U.S. weapons and will oppose measures to restrict the First Amendment when it comes to openly discussing these questions. And then finally, to try to overturn Citizens United. I pledge to get all big money out of politics. It doesn't call for sanctioning Israel. It doesn't call for boycotting. It doesn't call for any of the more kind of ultra demands that people might want to see. It basically says American dollars, American weapons, and American political power must never be used in violation of the law or to enable mass atrocities.

44:56Seems pretty straightforward. How do you think people will respond to this? And is signing this worth that green card? I'm proud to announce that I'm going to be signing it today. and I hope all Democrats will sign it and some Republicans will sign it. You know, APEC-Tracker has become such an icon that APEC attacks me for not attacking APEC-Tracker. They'll sometimes tweet out to members, why aren't you attacking APEC-Tracker? But this is a pretty simple way for folks to say after Gaza we have moral clarity. They may not have voted with Mark Pocan and me and Pramila against the aid, but this gives them a clean start.

45:39And it's not very controversial. I mean, the UN has said there's a genocide. Most Americans don't want aid going there. They don't want our military sales going there. It's very carefully worded on APEC, so you can't play games. I mean, a lot of people don't take direct APEC money or Democratic majority for Israel money. This is you can't have bundling from people affiliated with it. So you can't go around it. You can't get third party groups and that you need to be committed to overturning money in politics. I hope that what we have done today inspires many, many people to to sign up and then they'll get the green card, the coveted green card, which has now become part of debates, constituent questions.

46:25In fact, at one point, I think I had in APEC track percent, decent but could be better. And so I'm looking forward to my green card. No, go ahead, Corey. Well, I was just going to add to that that that is forthcoming today. So we are also, in addition to announcing that we're very proud to have Representative Ro Khanna as the inaugural signer of this pledge, but also that TRAC-APAC is endorsing and will be issuing the green card for signing the pledge for Representative Kana today. And I think it's an interesting kind of intervention into the conversation, which has, you know, you guys have been accused of kind of putting your thumb on the scale and saying, well, this person gets some of this money, but this person doesn't yet, but this person supports this policy.

47:13So they get a green card, but you get a red card. This does seem to clear it up a little bit to say, you know what, you want a green card? It's quite easy. Here it is. Just sign this piece of paper and you get the green card. Absolutely. I mean, the issue of what determines whether or not someone earns a red card in our metrics is based both on funding that they have accepted or have benefited from, because we also count independent expenditures that are spent on behalf of a candidate or to promote or support a candidate's candidacy, but also their policy positions. If they're elected, then their voting record.

47:56If they're running for office, then their public statements and what they have committed to in both public and independently reported and verified private communications, because we do know that there are some that are circulating APAC position papers that are commonly circulated in secret. So because it has been based on that combination, you know, this pledge is designed to give people the off-ramp. Okay, I've maybe accepted support from the lobby in the past, or I've maybe taken some votes that I would not take today based on the changing of my policies. And so this pledge gives people that are in that kind of position an off-ramp to get there.

48:43Emily Jashinsky:And how are you anticipating, Corey, what may happen? You've already seen it happen with, and Brian's reported on this often, about AIPAC money coming through, or money that supports bolstering the American-Israeli alliance coming through, things that aren't now named AIPAC, because you all have been a part of making the AIPAC brand very toxic, especially among Democrats. How are you planning to kind of track that going forward? Well, we've already started. We've already built reporting tools that are helping us triangulate onto the various shell packs and pop-up packs that they utilize. We are monitoring when we are able to detect trends that they're utilizing pass-throughs.

49:22I know that Ryan has done a lot of reporting on both of those activities, and we're continuing to refine and expand our reporting tools and growing our data team to be able to get more sophisticated. The truth is that we have to keep adapting because AIPAC is adapting their methods and the lobby is adapting their methods. They do recognize that their brand has become toxic. There's a reason why that anytime they're spending on behalf of a candidate, their ads never mention anything about that candidate's position on U.S. and Israel policy. They're always about some other issue that's not related.

49:54So, you know, we are continuing to create tools and refine the tools that allow us to be able to trace that money and report the full picture accurately. And I'm curious, the last question, how you draw the kind of distinction between just kind of random people who are donating to a candidate and coordinated activity. This week at DropSite, Julian Andrione and I reported on Adriano Espaiat, for instance. On June 4th, he reported getting 69 contributions. I think 67 of them had been major, either APAC or other pro-Israel organization donors, and had given at least like$1 ,000. So we're not talking about somebody who got an email from an APAC-linked group and gave$25 to support whatever.

50:43who knows what the email said might have been something innocuous we're talking you know minimum four-figure contributions from each one of these people and one of the guys bob cohen was the former president of apac and had raised tens of millions of dollars to try to defeat the iran nuclear deal so we look at that we're like okay we're going to call that highly coordinated pro-israel activity like it's just it just obviously is but how do you guys think through that because AIPAC will say, oh, now you're just coming at Jewish Americans who want to support a candidate and participate in the political process, and you're stigmatizing that in an anti-Semitic way.

51:21Yeah, of course. We have heard that argument, and that is nonsense on its face. I mean, AIPAC themselves doesn't even believe that. AIPAC brags all the time, and all of the members of the Israel lobby brag all the time that their members are made up of people from every part of the ideological spectrum, you know, in every kind of identity. So it's silly that they make that argument. Tracking and reporting on the activity of the individual donors is definitely a lot harder. And that's one of the reasons why they've moved to that as a tactic. I know that we lean very heavily on great investigative journalism, like what's happening at DropSite, you know, with other outlets, when we want to be able to detect that.

52:07Because one of the challenges is that these donors will, or this activity will happen in these kind of buffers of the reporting periods where it might not show up on the disclosure until after an election is actually done. That happens a lot with the shell packs, for example. So, you know, it does get tricky. And we've got some work to do to figure out how to really refine the individual donor reporting part. And just to be clear, like somebody like Maxine Dexter, who's an incumbent Democrat, you know, she got well over a million or two million dollars in kind of eight-pack, super-pack support when she ran in her Oregon race.

52:47But she has since said she regrets that. The money is toxic. She supports block the bombs, you know, et cetera. So somebody like her, if she signs this pledge, she's in the green? Absolutely. She's someone that I hope would sign the pledge. We've seen, as the APAC brand has become increasingly toxic, we've seen members that have kind of stuck their finger in the wind and seen, okay, I see which way the direction is going now. And so I'm not taking APAC money anymore. Great. Okay. That's a nice step, but it's not enough. And that's what this pledge is designed to reflect. that I certainly would love for Congresswoman Dexter to be one of the signers of this pledge.

53:25I think there are some others who have come forward and said that they're no longer taking APAC money that are probably less likely to agree with the finer points of the pledge. But we're open to anybody who's interested in signing it. We would love to have those conversations. Well, Cori, thank you so much for joining us. And Congressman Con, I really appreciate it.

53:44Emily Jashinsky:Thank you. Thank you. Well, that does it for us on today's edition of breaking points uh we will be back friday right ryan friday show friday show soccer and crystal are in tomorrow breakingpoints.com if you want to get a premium subscription thank you all so much for supporting the show it's not a premium subscription anymore it's an environmental fee it's an environmental fee what that's for the heads i don't even know what you're doing there straight of hormuz heads it's an environmental fee i see what you're doing now not at all i needed to have it explained. I needed to have it explained.

54:16Emily Jashinsky:Not at all. Not a premium charge. It's an environmental fee. Yeah. Sounds good to me. We'll be collecting the convenience fees at breakingpoints.com and we'll see you on Friday.

54:41Hi, it's Karen in Georgia from My Favorite Murder. We cruised around L.A. in the Hyundai Ioniq 5 and dove into the fascinating life of actress and inventor Hedy Lamarr. Want the full story? Take a listen. She starts dating Howard Hughes. And in fact, she helps him design a faster plane. So she finds the fastest bird and the fastest fish and sketches out a drawing of what the two would look like as a plane. And that becomes the plane that we know today. And he calls her a genius. Check out our new episode spotlighting groundbreaking innovators like Hedy Lamarr and Billie Jean King. Presented by the Hyundai Ioniq 5.

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