6/23/26: Housing Affordability Crisis, Israel's Nuclear Blackmail Plot

23 Jun 2026 · 44 min · 20 chapters

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In short

The episode links two crises: U.S. housing affordability and the U.S.-Israel relationship, framed as driven by financialization and power politics. For housing, the host cites Wall Street Journal data: from 2019-2025 principal +22%, interest +35%, property taxes +31%, insurance +72%, maintenance +85%, and emergency repairs +175%. A 2019 “basic” annual ownership cost of about $20,000 rises to about $28,500 by 2025, outpacing CPI inflation (~26%). The host claims “affordability traps” keep millions of homes off the market and highlights HOA fees rising from a $500 median (2021) to $757 (2025). The host argues private equity “roll-ups” of repair businesses drive maintenance/emergency costs. They also discuss electricity costs and federal regulators fast-tracking AI data center grid connections, warning consumers will be prioritized last.

Guests

Brendan James and Noah Colwin, co-hosts of The Blowback Pod, promoting their miniseries “No Daylight” on U.S.-Israel history. Key claims include U.S.-Israel “daylight” moments (e.g., Truman, Eisenhower, Reagan, H.W. Bush) being temporary, and “nuclear blackmail” as a unique constraint.

Notable examples

the USS Liberty attack (1967), the 1953 West Bank massacre tied to Ariel Sharon and AIPAC’s rise, Reagan-era AWACS/AIPAC conflicts, and H.W. Bush withholding ~$10B in loan guarantees.

Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.

Chapters

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Importance of Independent Media

0:35 to 0:51

Discussion on the role of independent media in elections and society.

“The Splash into Savings event from Apple Vacations is here.”

Importance of Independent Media

2:04 to 2:19

Discussion on the role of independent media in elections and society.

“Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.”

Housing Affordability Crisis

2:38 to 6:28

Analysis of rising home ownership costs and the affordability trap.

“I wanted to break all these numbers down with all of you guys.”

Wealth Inequality and Asset Financialization

6:30 to 11:12

Exploration of how wealth concentration affects housing markets and costs.

“point and shout out to Gary's Economics, who put it in these terms in a recent video about Elon Musk becoming the world's first trillionaire.”

Impact of Energy Costs on Housing

11:12 to 13:24

Link between rising energy costs and housing affordability challenges.

“So I think that that data is really, really important, actually just about home buying and the way that assets will move in the future.”

Federal Energy Regulation and AI Demand

13:24 to 14:00

Discussion on federal energy regulations in response to AI data centers' electricity needs.

“One of the things we focused on a lot is the electricity costs, which have skyrocketed, which is also documented in that Wall Street Journal piece that we were talking about.”

Challenges of Electricity Generation for AI

14:00 to 17:36

Discusses the impact of AI data centers on electricity generation and consumer costs.

“large energy users connect more quickly to the nation's inefficient and aging electric transmission system, a step they said is needed to accommodate surging demand from power-hungry artificial intelligence data centers.”

Challenges of Electricity Generation for AI

17:40 to 18:44

Discusses the impact of AI data centers on electricity generation and consumer costs.

“Apple Vacations, where your story starts.”

Introduction to the Special Relationship with Israel

19:44 to 20:23

Introduces guests and the topic of the U.S.-Israel relationship.

“See nutrition info on hero.co for sodium and sugar content.”

Trump's Comments on Israel

20:23 to 21:34

Analyzes Trump's recent statements regarding Israel and Netanyahu.

“So let's go ahead and start by taking a listen to some of the things that President Trump has said lately about his relationship with Benjamin Netanyahu.”
Show all 20 chapters

The U.S.-Israel Relationship: An Inflection Point

21:34 to 22:42

Discusses the evolving dynamics of U.S.-Israel relations and potential changes.

“What have you made of these comments from Trump?”

Historical Context of U.S.-Israel Ties

22:42 to 28:07

Explores the historical trajectory of the U.S.-Israel relationship from its inception.

“process initiated since October 7th, 2023, where the U.S.”

The Evolution of U.S.-Israel Relations

28:07 to 33:09

Explore the key historical moments that shaped the U.S.-Israel relationship from Truman to Reagan.

“But if that cannot be reached, we will sign on to the execution of a Jewish state as far as that can be attained in a just manner.”

The Evolution of U.S.-Israel Relations

33:13 to 34:17

Explore the key historical moments that shaped the U.S.-Israel relationship from Truman to Reagan.

“Apple Vacations, where your story starts.”

The Evolution of U.S.-Israel Relations

34:22 to 35:25

Explore the key historical moments that shaped the U.S.-Israel relationship from Truman to Reagan.

“Love bread, baked goods, and pasta, but not the way they make you feel?”

Nuclear Blackmail and Lobby Influence

35:25 to 42:04

Delve into the impact of nuclear threats and lobbying on U.S.-Israel relations and policy-making.

“these different instances where American presidents, at least momentarily, put up some resistance and say, you got to stop.”

The USS Liberty Incident and Its Implications

42:04 to 46:05

Explore the USS Liberty incident's historical context and its long-term effects on U.S.-Israel relations.

“And the pro-Israel lobby has more or less also taken the place of identifying with the position of the organized Jewish community in the United States.”

The Evolution of U.S.-Israel Ideological Ties

46:06 to 49:42

Discuss how ideological rationales for U.S.-Israel relations evolved over time, including key figures like LBJ.

“is, you know, you were mentioning how some of the rationales or some of the argument that was made on the Israeli side of why we should have this close relationship changed.”

The Evolution of U.S.-Israel Ideological Ties

50:09 to 51:22

Discuss how ideological rationales for U.S.-Israel relations evolved over time, including key figures like LBJ.

“And as always, we have more shit to announce soon.”

The Evolution of U.S.-Israel Ideological Ties

51:26 to 51:44

Discuss how ideological rationales for U.S.-Israel relations evolved over time, including key figures like LBJ.

“Apple Vacations, where your story starts.”
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Transcript

Automatic transcript. May contain errors.

0:00This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human. I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything. It's the rage bait. It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The Splash into Savings event from Apple Vacations is here. Now through June 25th, save up to$150 on vacation packages, plus instant savings at select resorts in Mexico, the Caribbean, Central America, and top U.S.

0:51destinations. Use promo code JUNE26 for these limited-time offers. Start planning today at applevacations.com or contact your travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. Love bread, baked goods, and pasta, but not the way they make you feel? What if I told you there are macro-friendly options that don't taste like sawdust and sadness? Satisfying sandwiches, fully loaded bagels, noodles that can stand up to your favorite chunky sauces. All delicious. Craveworthy and smart, each serving of Hero Bread has up to 19 grams of protein and 32 grams of fiber. and just 0-5 grams net carbs and 0 grams sugar.

1:28Hero Bread bakes with heart-healthy olive oil and delivers the soft, fluffy, flavorful experience you love. Breakfast burritos, schmear-loaded bagels, real mac and cheese. Hero Bread bakes loaves, bagels, and tortillas that don't taste or feel like cardboard. Noodles that don't fall apart in hearty sauces. Plus, limited-edition small batch bakes like the 2-grams net carb Hero Croissant or 1-gram net carb Hero Cheddar Biscuit, handmade in a Sonoma-based French bakery. Shop now on Hero.co. Use code IHEART for 10 % off. That's Hero.co. Per serving, not a low-calorie food. Some products contain allulose.

2:01See nutrition info on Hero.co for sodium and sugar content. Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at BreakingPoints.com.

2:38Turning now to housing. So this really caught my eye. I wanted to break all these numbers down with all of you guys. Let's put it up here on the screen. The Wall Street Journal did an excellent job here where they collated a bunch of data which shows home ownership costs from 2019 to 2025. So let's go through it. So in terms of the amount of principal costs that people are now paying, from 2019 to 2025, people are now paying about 22 % more in their principal payments than they were back in 2019. And remember, this is just 2025 data. It doesn't even include 2026, which has already gone higher.

3:1222 % more when it comes to principal. Now let's look at interest. Whenever it comes to interest, people are paying 35 % more interest, largely because of the increase in overall interest rates. Now, all of that makes sense, and it's still not that crazy. Property taxes have gone up by 31%. Makes sense whenever you factor in the principal payment and some increase overall in city services. But this is where things start to become actually insane. Insurance, home insurance costs, up 72 % from 2019 to 2025. Home maintenance is up by 85%. And then the worst number of them all, emergency repairs, up 175%.

3:54So they say that a home buyer in 2019 could expect to spend about$20 ,000 a year on basic home ownership expenses. By 2025, that annual bill is now$28 ,500, which has massively outstripped overall inflation, which is pegged at 26 % during that same time period just from the Consumer Price Index. By 2025, homeowners who wish that they could sell and move elsewhere are also staying put, turned off by the cost of purchasing today. This is one of the foremost problems in the so-called affordability trap. What we also see here is that sales of previously owned homes have held around$4 million a year since 2023, which is the lowest level in decades, down from the pre-pandemic norm of between$5 million and$1.5 million a year.

4:41So if you do the math, that's almost 5 or 6 million houses that have been kept off of the market, largely because of these exact traps. From the overall monthly insurance payments, taxes, interest, and principal, you're now sitting roughly around$2 ,000 a month, which, if you do the math,$24 ,000. But then you look at the overall household income, especially if you look at overall household after-tax income, you're sitting around 50%. This makes it impossible, especially with the average home rate. The one that really struck me is actually the HOA fee. I don't know what the hell is going on. I don't live in an HOA, but the median HOA fee in 2021 was$500.

5:21The median HOA fee in 2025 is$757. So that's like a gigantic increase, actually, just from 2024 to 2025. But my main takeaway from this is about financialization. So a friend of mine was taking a look at this data, and what he pointed out, shout out to Fred Bauer, was if you look at the things that outpace overall inflation, it's interest, it's insurance, and that's home maintenance and emergency repairs. What do those things have in common? Financialization. The insurance industry, the interest obviously is the banks, but in home maintenance and emergency repairs, that's not just labor costs.

5:58It's because in the last six years, private equity specifically has been rolling up local repair businesses, plumbing, AC, many of these, especially emergency repairs. And they've realized that because people are in dire straits and they'll have to pay anything, if they standardize, roll them up, give them, you know, backend software and all of that, they can squeeze enormous profits out of these homeowners. And that's why the emergency repair number is up so high. But finance is the bedrock of all of these overall cost increases that you can see. Yeah. So let me zoom out and make a bigger picture point and shout out to Gary's Economics, who put it in these terms in a recent video about Elon Musk becoming the world's first trillionaire.

6:37When you have trillionaires, and he's the first one on paper, but probably not the only one. It's just now that SpaceX IPO'd, which actually SpaceX not doing that well today, but that's another story for another day. We might cover that tomorrow. In any case, with the SpaceX IPO, we now officially know that he is a trillionaire. You have all of these billionaires. You look at the way that these, mostly men's, wealth skyrocketed over the past several years, it is astronomical. Just think about the fact that we had in, you know, Bernie Sanders' 2016 campaign, what was his constant refrain? The millionaires and the billionaires.

7:15You're talking about millionaires at this point. It's quaint. It's quaint to think about millionaires. Now we're talking about the billionaires and the trillionaires. And that's just over the course of a decade that that shift has happened. Well, when you are someone who has that amount of wealth, a literally incomprehensible amount of money. A billion dollars is an incomprehensible amount of money. A trillion dollars is beyond the comprehension of any human being. What do you do? And this goes to your point, Sagar. You buy up assets. So is it any surprise then that all of these assets, including homes, become more and more and more expensive, that they find more and more ways to financialize every aspect of this.

7:58Why? Because it is money in search of assets. And we have money consolidated in the hands of a very few number of people. You know, when you have a little more money in your pocket, you're not going out and buying all these things. You're able to indulge. Maybe you go on vacation. You're able to buy steak, right? The average person, it's much more hand and mouth. So you're not out there looking to buy up the entire world. The more wealth inequality that we have, the more that you have trillionaires and 100 billionaires that are dominating the entire economy of the entire globe, the more they're going to bid up the price of assets.

8:38It is inevitable when you think about the way those dynamics work. So that is a part of the underlying story of why these costs keep going up and up and up. And there is no relief in sight. If you want relief, you have to tax these people. That's what you have to do. You have to do a wealth tax. You have to take some of the wealth. You cannot allow there to be these trillionaires and multi-multi-multi-billionaires controlling everything and buying everything up if you are a person who would like to aspire, excuse me, one day to be able to, I don't know, own a home or own really anything. If you are that person, then you should be in favor of reining in the wealth and power of these oligarchs.

9:20So I think that is a very critical piece of this that also oftentimes goes overlooked intentionally. You know, and that's not to say that like the sort of abundance agenda of deregulation and Yimbyism, that's not to say that stuff doesn't matter. But the overarching structure here of these increasing numbers of trillionaires and billionaires buying up everything is going to make it so that we never get out of this doom loop until we check their wealth and power. There's a demand side and a supply side. That's the thing we have to look at both. Let's put D3 up here on the screen, just because I want to go through even some more of the math.

9:56And when you do, it's crazy. This is where they say that Morgan Stanley is predicting that home buyers will face a harsh reset. And mostly, they say, what it points is to this conclusion, is that the base case projects mortgage payments will have to decline about 24 % of household income to 21 % in the coming decade, as rates have to moderate over the long term. But that will still leave affordability well above the 15 % average that prevailed in the years after the 2007 to 2009 financial crisis. The squeeze will reshape ownership and rental dynamics and will make it so that aspiring owners will continue to comprise more and more of the overall U.S.

10:36population. In terms of the reset, what they say is that it will reset the way specifically that wealth is built in the long term, specifically probably for people who are our age and more in the millennial demographic, because home ownership was the bedrock of wealth building over the post-war period. But now, when the first-time homebuyer is some 36 to 40 years old, and then the average homebuyer is like in their 50s, then you have different situations where having that lack of asset, which we'll appreciate over time, just scrambles the entire way that you think about your future, not to mention whenever it comes to your community.

11:12So I think that that data is really, really important, actually just about home buying and the way that assets will move in the future. But I also think that whenever it comes to the housing front, it shows how the current way that I mean, I really struggle with this. I believe in some localism. I really do, especially when it comes to data centers. You know, NIMBYs definitely have a point in their ability. But but I like tension facilities. Yeah. Or yeah, in your case, whatever you want. Beautification, you know, zoning. I really do get it. Like I get it whenever it comes to what makes a community nice.

11:48However, are we not at a genuine crisis level? Like, that's how I start to think. And that's when people start complaining about, oh, like, this is going to overwhelm, you know, X services. I hear you. But then we need to make it so that you have the housing and you have the services. Like, there needs to be. I just read that we spent$80 billion on the Iran war, which is great. $80 billion is what the Pentagon is asking for to recoup costs of what the Iran war. That is 80 % of what we spent in 20 years just on the Afghan National Security Forces. 20 years in Afghanistan on the ANSF is what we just spent in three weeks in the war in Iran.

12:25That's insanity. So just to show you all in terms of the cost that we're dealing with here, maybe some of it could go to an overall homestead fund or builder incentives. You need funds up front. Then you need tax incentives for the builders. You need to make it so that the market that is best served for the builder, they have an incentive to build first-time starter home. You need to make it so they keep the private capital people out of competing for said things. But I also think you honestly need a mechanism to make and genuinely force in some cases, especially in these high-cost-of-living areas, to be able to build more housing.

13:00And I hear 100 % of the people who already live there, we're not saying you're going to get screwed. We should make sure that there's services and all of that too. But increasingly, all I hear from the homeownership class is like, oh, we can't have that. We can't have that. And I'm like, I'm sorry. Like, you know, when you have people pulling$200 ,000,$300 ,000 a year and they can't even buy a home in a high cost of living area, like we're cooked, you know, as an overall society. Yeah. And, you know, that, so it's the housing costs, but it's all the other costs too. One of the things we focused on a lot is the electricity costs, which have skyrocketed, which is also documented in that Wall Street Journal piece that we were talking about.

13:35And this again goes back to like the oligarchs and their demands. That is the primary reason why electricity costs are going up and up and up. And I took notice of this recent development with federal energy regulators. Here's the headline here. Federal regulators order grid operators to speed power to energy-hungry AI data centers. Federal regulators on Thursday, this is last week, ordered regional grid operators to help large energy users connect more quickly to the nation's inefficient and aging electric transmission system, a step they said is needed to accommodate surging demand from power-hungry artificial intelligence data centers.

14:15Now, they're claiming, oh, don't worry, it's not going to add to your costs. Okay, do you believe that? Do you believe that? And here's the other thing. It's not just about the cost. We just literally do not generate enough electricity to deal with the amount that these, you know, the operators that are the major AI tech companies, what they are pushing towards, we do not have that level of electricity generation. So if we're having to, if there are going to be blackouts, if we're going to have to ration electricity generation needs, who do you think is going to be prioritized in that situation?

14:53It reminds me very much of when we had the Flint water crisis and the Ford and NGM were like, hey, this new water is like corroding our parts. We can't do it like you're destroying our business. The government was quick to, oh, well, don't worry, we'll switch you back to the other system. We got you. Meanwhile, people and their children were literally being lead poisoned every day. And it took years before that was addressed. It's going to be the same dynamic here, right? The people with the money and the power are going to get their needs met first. And so this to me is one, you know, emblem of the direction that the federal government and a lot of the state governments are going to go in as well, where they are being prioritized.

15:37Oh, you're a giant new data center and you need to be connected to the grid, even though this is going to spike energy rates and electricity rates for consumers across this entire region. Don't worry. We've got your back. We will fast track your ability to connect into the grid with no requirement that we're building out additional electricity generation needs. So it is this dynamic which will continue to make costs higher and higher and higher across the board. Yeah. And I will just point to the story that I relayed last time, our last show about Sterling, Virginia, where this exact situation happened.

16:11Those generators with the extreme wine, which were overwhelming the noise in the neighborhood, they were told it would only be on temporarily. The generators have now been on for over a year. So you could see, and these residents have no recourse, are sitting there with loud hearing damage level noise perpetuating the entire neighborhood that for over a year with zero recourse. So whenever it comes to these promises from the electricity utilities, oh, it's not gonna increase. The truth is, you can see this is about priority. And they need, look, they need these data centers to come online at the end of the day.

16:49That's the only thing powering the American stock market. The whole bet of the entire economy. So if that doesn't work out, it all goes bust. So it just makes it so that at the end of the day, they're going to get the preferential treatment, the rates. And yeah, if we're ever in a power generation crisis, we all know which way it's going to go. And you can only take it back one way, which is democracy. All right. So we have some great guests sitting by the Blowback Pod to talk about their special relationship series on Israel and the United States. Let's get to it. Apple Vacations, where your story starts.

17:22The Splash into Savings event from Apple Vacations is here. Now through June 25th, save up to$150 on vacation packages, plus instant savings at select resorts in Mexico, the Caribbean, Central America, and top U.S. destinations. Use promo code JUNE26 for these limited-time offers. Start planning today at AppleVacations.com or contact your travel advisor. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. Let's talk about modern home shopping. It's sort of become a fun side hobby, right? Scrolling listings at night, dreaming about kitchens you've never seen, or backyards you haven't even stepped foot in.

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19:19Breakfast burritos, schmear-loaded bagels, real mac and cheese. Hero Bread bakes loaves, bagels, and tortillas that don't taste or feel like cardboard. Noodles that don't fall apart in hearty sauces. Plus, limited-edition small batch bakes like the 2-grams Net Carb Hero Croissant or 1-gram Net Carb Hero Cheddar Biscuit. Handmade in a Sonoma-based French bakery. Shop now on Hero.co. Use code IHEART for 10 % off. That's hero.co. Per serving, not a low-calorie food. Some products contain allulose. See nutrition info on hero.co for sodium and sugar content. There's been a lot in the news lately and a lot that is quite relevant about our special relationship with the nation-state of Israel.

19:59So luckily for us, we are joined by two experts today. We've got Brendan James and Noah Colwin, co-hosts of the Blowback Pod. And they have just released, right now for premium subscribers, a special edition called No Daylight that looks at the historical trajectory of the U.S.-Israel relationship. It is fantastic. Everybody go and subscribe. Gentlemen, welcome to the show. Good to see you guys. Thank you. Thanks for having us. Yeah, of course. So let's go ahead and start by taking a listen to some of the things that President Trump has said lately about his relationship with Benjamin Netanyahu.

20:30And Bibi Netanyahu worked well with me, but he will tell you, we're the ones with the guns. We're the ones with the whole deal. were the ones with the B-2 bombers, etc. If it weren't for Donald Trump, Israel would have been eviscerated. Your relationship with Netanyahu is... It's good, but we have to keep them a little bit sane. Are you going to be able to control Israel from attacking Lebanon? Yeah, I will be. I mean, I wonder. They have a lot of respect for me, and they do as I say. Mr. Bibi Netanyahu happens to be a good man, gets a little excited sometimes. But he happens to be a very good man.

21:14We've had an amazing partnership. He's been an amazing prime minister. We have a little dispute over Lebanon. I say you can do a little softer touch, Bibi. You don't have to knock down a building every time somebody walks into it that's from Hezbollah. But it's been an amazing partnership. But he will say we're the big partner and he's the very small partner. And that's true. So, Noah, I'll start with you. What have you made of these comments from Trump? Also, more critically, the comments from J.D. Vance. Do you think this split with Israel is real? uh that's a great question i think that this split is an inflection point i don't necessarily know if i would say that it's real in the way that people necessarily um like the at least popular sentiment uh would like it to be um just generally because of the contempt towards israel uh and the netanyahu government but i do believe that what this shows and what it indicates and what it surfaces, and this is actually part of the point of our miniseries, is that we're interested in examining like, well, OK, how do these moments of daylight emerge when it's clear that the US and Israel have divergent interests?

22:22And how is it then that they get sutured back shut? And I would argue that at this time, when I say we're at an inflection point, we're at a moment where we're figuring out, OK, is this going to be one of those moments, as it has been for most of the past 80 years where something gets to shut back together? Or is this actually going to be part of a longer process initiated since October 7th, 2023, where the U.S. and Israel's strategic partnership is perhaps, you know, coming undone or at the very least significantly changing in character from how it's been before? Yeah, Brendan, let's let's talk here a little bit, zooming out when how it pertains to your guys' season, going back from the beginning.

23:04I have alluded to this in the past about Truman's haberdashery partner and kind of the very strange circumstances in which the United States even became entwined with Israel. But why don't you take the audience through some of that? Well, it's a fascinating thing. I think many people will be caught off guard if they listen, particularly if they're younger, they're unfamiliar with some of this history. Harry Truman, of course, was the president, the U.S. president that recognized the state of Israel when it was founded in 48. But for several years before that, from 1945 onward, the beginning of his presidency, he was not so keen on there being a Jewish state in the Middle East.

23:45He opposed it. He told the Zionist lobby he opposed it. He told his own advisors he opposed it. He told the public he opposed it in one way or another. He thought it was an ethnostate, alternatively called it an ethnostate or a theocracy, neither of which were ideals that he felt were worthy of lending American support to. The problem was, is he had a sort of a showdown in his own cabinet between his foreign policy establishment, which at the very top was led by no less than George Marshall, a decorated general from World War II. None of them supported, virtually none of them supported, and certainly no one high up supported the foundation of a Jewish state.

24:25and there were even cold warriors right wingers who said um we think this will drive the arab states that have a lot of oil into the hands or rather into the arms of the soviet union uh there's no reason to do this everyone including truman was much more sympathetic to the idea of a binational or federated state that's what they were working in concert with the british empire to bring about because a lot of this also meant the british were exiting the middle east However, his domestic advisors were very keen on him supporting a state of Israel, not only because of their own personal Zionism, which they had reached some of them actually quite recently in their careers, but because it was a very easy way for him to hold together the New Deal coalition that he inherited from FDR.

25:10It was a purely domestic, purely political calculation that the ethnic makeup of the New Deal coalition, which included Jews in very important states and very important cities that he had to win, that this was something that we need not worry about the consequences of overseas as long as it secures us the election and the sort of democratic parties coalition that was so important. So you have Truman being the first guy who recognized Israel who didn't even think it was a good idea and who really didn't pay attention to much of the issue of Palestine after except to express frustration with issues of refugees returning and indeed what you might call the right of return that he was rather repulsed by Israel's conduct.

25:53However, it was at that point he had already given in to the political pressures and had recognized the state of Israel and couldn't really do much about it. And at that point in the, you know, in terms of the political valence, Zionism was a cause more associated with the political left that has shifted over the years. Talk about how that political dynamic has shifted as the orientation towards Israel has shifted and become this security arrangement that we know today. It's very fascinating, again, for people who think of, you know, reasonably now look around and think of Palestine as something that is a cause for the center left, left of center and all the way to the far left.

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26:33Initially, because I should think it was a moment right after the Nazi Holocaust, there was also a rather typical American incuriosity with what was really going on in the ground in Palestine. A lot of progressives and liberals said this is restorative justice of some kind to the Jews of Europe. There's some tenuous biblical and ancient connection with this land. Why not allow this to happen? You must be an anti-Semite. You must be some kind of crank to not recognize the right the Jews have to their own state. We still hear some of this language. But it was coming from places like The Nation or the pre-Murdoch New York Post and even Soviet agents inside of America, which is a whole other story about why the Soviet Union might want it to have had some of its inside guys softening Truman's Cold War coalition by appealing to some of its Jewish members of that coalition with the appeal of Zionism.

27:39But at any rate, it was viewed as a progressive cause. And as I mentioned earlier, it was Cold Warriors, a guy named Lloyd Henderson had Truman's ear, who was very conservative and right wing and felt that it was a really boneheaded move in the context of the Cold War and the standoff with the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union itself opposed the creation of a Jewish state for many years until around 47 when, to the surprise of everyone, it said we still would prefer a binational or federated state. But if that cannot be reached, we will sign on to the execution of a Jewish state as far as that can be attained in a just manner.

28:16And that was a huge surprise to everyone. The idea, I think, being that they really wanted to drive the British out of the Middle East. And they saw the retreat of the British Empire as something more strategically worthy of their attention than necessarily the founding of the Jewish state in Palestine. Noah, in terms of what you guys cover on the podcast, why don't you lay out for us the key moments in the so-called special relationship? How did it evolve to what it is from Truman's haberdashery partner to today? Truman's haberdashery partner, you know, his Jewish friend, somebody he would lean on considerably for personal advice and humor, was, you know, but a bit player, right, in this larger story between the U.S.

29:00and Zionism and then the U.S. and Israel. Our show takes the big moments of these stories, or at least these moments when tension surfaces in very visible ways that are unique. Like we take them to be the founding of Israel, more or less, and the Truman White House's navigation of that process. We also look at the Eisenhower years and the Eisenhower years, I think, are very interesting and very understudied. In particular, we look at both the Suez crisis, but also something that happened in 1953, a few years earlier, a massacre in the West Bank committed by Israeli forces led by none other than later Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, a massacre that was such a PR blow to Israel that it led to, you know, it was the it tipped a relatively short series of dominoes that led to the creation of AIPAC, the most powerful and well-known Israel lobby today.

29:57And then we also look at the Reagan years. And we have a bit of time. We talk a little bit about how the U.S.-Israel relationship changed in the late 60s and 70s. But we really focus on the Reagan years because the Reagan years are also another underappreciated time of tension between the U.S. and Israel. Ronald Reagan, elected as probably the most outwardly Zionist president in American history until that point, pretty immediately is thrust into a series of political fights with pro-Israel forces. This is the time when AIPAC and the pro-Israel lobby is coming into its own, when Israeli influence networks in the United States are beginning to reach maturity and efficacy.

30:36A bunch of spy rings get broken up in this decade. A bunch of other organizations that are pro-Israel, like the ADL, get caught up in various political scandals. And the Reagan White House was in fights, you know, a self-described very pro-Israel White House was in, you know, they did battle with the Israel lobby or what was called the AWACS fight, an arms deal with Saudi Arabia, essentially. And then we also had the time that that time that Israel went and bombed an Iraqi nuclear reactor. And Reagan wrote in his diary that he thought Armageddon was coming. and most infamously, and this is something that has very, you know, kind of jarring parallels of today, frankly, something that when Brennan and I conceived of this miniseries, we hadn't, you know, was not quite yet a fact on the ground, which was the brutal Israeli assault that has been unfolding in Lebanon in the last couple of months.

31:28And how in Reagan's time, I mean, Israel committed atrocities and oversaw atrocities such as Sabra and Shatila. And in fact, the U.S. was directly implicated in some of these atrocities as well. And we suffered for it, too. The United States, you know, Marine, the Marine barracks bombing took place in this time. And, you know, Reagan calls Begin telling him it's a damn Holocaust, like cut it out. And it's, you know, I think it's kind of interesting. And what we try to tell the story of there is how there was that great moment of tension, something that had never really happened before. And then it kind of did go back to business as usual with a kind of big exception, or at least with like a sort of important coda, which is that under George H.W.

32:10Bush, there was a sincere effort to try to get Israel to the negotiating table with the Palestinians. Like say what one will about the premises of those negotiations, how strong a hand or how fair a hand the Palestinians would be dealt in them. But H.W. Bush successfully held up loan guarantees that Israel was seeking in the early 90s as a method of coercing them. 10 billions worth. I mean, billions of dollars. And it would is like, you know, Israel was facing legitimate financial crisis in the U.S. That is leverage to extract democratic diplomatic concession, which, you know, I don't know about you guys, but I read the headlines today.

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35:19See nutrition info on hero.co over sodium and sugar content. Brendan, over the course of the podcast, you basically track these different instances where American presidents, at least momentarily, put up some resistance and say, you got to stop. They cut off some arms at certain points in time. And I believe it was begging that, you know, during the Reagan administration was like, no, they'll be back. Don't worry. Like, this will be a momentary bump and they'll be back. And that has been the correct analysis. So I wonder what you learned here about whether our relationship with Israel is driven primarily by the interest of empire, whether it is driven primarily by, you know, AIPAC and the very effective lobbying and, you know, the impact of money in politics here in the U.S., or is it a combination of the two?

36:08You know, help us tease out what you learned about what drives, what is the engine that continues to drive this relationship? Well, the first thing I would say, and we've had to discuss this in the different interviews we've done promoting the show, I personally, I don't even necessarily want to speak for Noah, and we don't tend to editorialize too much in the course of the miniseries itself or any of our seasons. I'm skeptical about the thesis that Israel is a mere appendage of U.S. foreign policy, a mere proxy for U.S. interests in the region and in the world. There's too much spying. There's too much sabotage.

36:46There's too much stealing of state secrets. And there's too much, just if this is to be a proxy or understood as one, flat out disobedience that you just don't see in that type of relationship. And as Noah was alluding to earlier, and as we cover in the first several episodes of the miniseries, for several decades, Israel and America did not have this special relationship. Eisenhower held up arms, embargoed arms. Truman, as we discussed, was not terribly sympathetic in general. He recognized the state. That was obviously a huge move, but it wasn't this hand-in-glove idea that people have had, rightfully so, for the past few decades.

37:23So it wasn't serving our interest as some kind of attack dog or expeditionary force for many, many years. Once that became, I think, the case that Israel was selling to America, we will be your Cold War chess piece in the Middle East, a lot of people started to believe that genuinely. It was a truly necessary relationship. And then in the 90s, there was an even greater emphasis once the Cold War was over. There was a greater emphasis on the Judeo-Christian shared values and civilization. This was, of course, presaging the war on terror language in which Israel became once more this ally that we couldn't do without.

37:57I'm skeptical of all of that and I think the left sometimes overestimates how in concert or symbiotic, supposedly in concert, Israel and America are. I would say that, of course, the lobby is impossible to ignore. Overstating it is something that will lead you down some strange places, but so will understating it. And the nuclear blackmail, I think, is sometimes under-discussed. I mean, whether it be Reagan or H.W. Bush, we may do a sequel to our series someday. We could talk about Clinton and Bush too and Obama. And of course, Trump right now, you can mouth off about Israel and get them to try to accept their place every now and again, but you can't get rid of those nukes.

38:42And I'm sure many, many people in the State Department, whether it was the Biden administration or Trump right now, they might like to read them their rights, but they might be told the next day by some fanatical Israeli minister, well, you know that if we have to do it, we can set off a tactical nuke. That's not nothing. So you have the domestic political pressure at home where they own much of the Congress, to put it bluntly, and you have a nuclear option for them anytime they want to say, well, who are you to tell us what to do? That's pretty scary for an empire that is declining and that needs as many friends as it can get as it declines.

39:16So I think that at this point, it's really a relationship born out of weakness of the United States. We'll see how this goes with Trump. Vance, you know, did his little, you know, kind of Zelensky style belittling of Israel the other day. But I mean, those are just words. You know, we tried to cover these in the miniseries, these moments where H.W. Bush withheld 10 billion, where Eisenhower slapped an arms embargo, where Reagan said, I'm suspending all support, you're committing a Holocaust. However brief these moments were, it's more than we've seen from the Trump people at the moment. And Noah, do you agree more or less with that assessment?

39:52Yeah, I think so. I think that the thing I would only even like somewhat add two points would be on the nuclear blackmail piece. There was once another country that had nuclear weapons and, you know, threatened to use them and also partnered with Israel in developing them. And that was South Africa. And South Africa, for a long time, benefited from using the same kind of strategic posture, strategic ambiguity, not acknowledging its weapons and so forth. And it wasn't really, you know, in the end days of the South African apartheid regime in the final years there, in the context of their various border wars and in the fight in particular against the Cubans in Angola, there were discussions about using tactical nuclear weapons.

40:33And I think that, you know, there was a real fear that South Africa would do that. And, you know, like it was taken as a credible threat is my point. And I believe that in the case of Israel, world leaders today similarly view Israeli threats, if they were ever to be made even, you know, in behind closed doors, they would view them as credible. considering that Israelis have done everything from like, you know, like the Bieber bombings. And I mean, at this point, too many ridiculous and strange and blatant horrors to name. And then the other point, and so which is to say that I think that the nuclear blackmail with them is is a lot more powerful of a force than it necessarily is with other states.

41:16That's really. And then and then the other piece of it is that I think that the Israel lobby is is a really fortunately, there's a lot of really good scholarship coming out about it right now. Somebody whom we interview for our show, Doug Ross, now has a terrific book out. Sorry, that'll be out either later this year or next year about American Zionism that has a lot of good historical facts. I know that Eli Clifton, I forget his co-author, but he's co-author of a new book out about the Israel lobby. and, you know, to say nothing of the Walton Mearsheimer. But for all of that ink, the Israel lobby remains kind of like a hazy and under-theorized and under-reported kind of, you know, set of institutions.

41:55And part of what that has enabled, right, is this like really sort of disastrous, direct and persistent conflation with being pro-Israel and being Jewish. And the pro-Israel lobby has more or less also taken the place of identifying with the position of the organized Jewish community in the United States. And the political power of that just shouldn't be taken lightly, not simply on the level of like, oh, Jews have a lot of power, but simply on the level that like this, you know, like an influential, respected and well-established minority group in the United States, like its civil rights are now bound up with this political position.

42:29And I don't think that the process by which that has been made to happen is a small part at all. I think it's a very important and big part of how it is that the U.S. and Israel have maintained whatever the relationship it is that they do have. Last question from me, guys, is about the USS Liberty. I know that you guys touch on it a little bit. Why don't you tell us a little bit how it factors into some of the analysis that you've laid out? Either of you can take that question, whoever wants to. I cede the hot potato to Noah. Go ahead. Yeah. So the USS Liberty in 1967, during the, I guess, ongoing conflicts over what we call the Six-Day War, there was an Israeli plane attack on a U.S.

43:13surveillance ship off the coast of Egypt. And the USS Liberty was the name of the ship. Dozens of sailors died. It was a rather surreal and startling attack. And for many years, what the attack was, its nature, its causes, what may have prompted it, was essentially hushed up. There were very little information was released about it. And it fostered a years-long, a decades-long resentment between higher echelons of the Navy and the NSA, because the NSA grew out of naval intelligence, and the NSA and Israel. And also, which is also because Israel, you know, does like Israel spies on us and we spy on everybody else.

43:58And that spying goes crossways a lot in addition to the intelligence sharing. So some rivalries there. But the U.S. liberty kind of became this shorthand in the years since. Right. For all of the ways in which the U.S. would just like go to bat for Israel against all reason. Why against all reason in this case? Because there's persistent eyewitness testimony and subsequent testimony from senior naval officers who tried to pursue an investigation or at least a deeper establishment of the facts surrounding the bombing of the Liberty. um they said that it was very clear that they were a u.s ship that this wasn't a case of mistaken identities Israelis later claimed and furthermore that part of what they were observing were Israeli actions uh and potentially an atrocity uh in Egypt in the city of al-arish and so I think that there is this um you know a uh the liberty is just like a perfect example and uh of how again like in part of why it's had such staying power since it happened in 67, even during like pretty consistently pro-Israel times in the U.S., is because the liberty, you know, has come to represent like the just sort of baffling human cost imposed by the U.S.'s strategic alignment with Israel.

45:13And, you know, there are scholars and journalists. Before we got talking on the show, you brought up James Scott, who is a very well-respected and certainly no, you know, you know anti-israel uh you know lefty um who has written about the liberty and has largely come down on the it was a deliberate strike um attitude as has james bamford who i would argue is you know one of the best chroniclers of the nsa of all time a wonderful journalist and he has also argued the same thing and i think that there is just you know there's so much evidence that points to it and exists in these historical accounts that it's kind of hard to deny but i think what's more important, at least, you know, 50 or 60 years on, sorry, Jesus, 60 years on, is that it has this resonance because of what it represents in terms of, you know, Israeli actions and U.S.

46:03tolerance for it. Totally. My last question for you, because I found this anecdote just so incredible, is, you know, you were mentioning how some of the rationales or some of the argument that was made on the Israeli side of why we should have this close relationship changed. And over the years, It became more sort of like ideological, shared Western values, et cetera. But, you know, I think some of our leaders genuinely like they're true believers. Like I think Joe Biden is a true believer in that regard. And you talk also about how LBJ was a true believer and he would make all these comments about like, oh, they're just like us in our founding fighting the savages.

46:36Comments which later on were when it became less of a convenient narrative on both sides were excised from his public comments. Talk a little bit about that, because I thought that was sort of an extraordinary admission, both of the reality of our past and founding and also of, you know, what some of the real ideological ties might be between the Zionist project and the American one. Yes, it certainly stands out, doesn't it, that comparison? It was, in fact, Brandeis who made those speeches as a Zionist in the early part of the 20th century that were later echoed by LBJ. and in the very good book Genesis by John Judas, which covers the Truman era and the founding of Israel, and for most of the book, Truman's opposition to it, he brings up this history of American Zionism.

47:24Yeah, Brandeis would make comparisons between the civilizing mission of the American settlers and the civilizing mission of the Zionist settlers, the Jewish settlers in the And the indigenous population of America that were, of course, exterminated and cheated were to be compared to the barbarians of the Arab population in Palestine. However, by the time even of the Second World War, which is a lot of stuff that wasn't that was still socially admissible that we wouldn't like now. Even then, those lines were excised from his collected speeches that were released. Johnson however I think more in private Who was one of the First presidents to embrace Israel A lot more than it previously had been By a US president He liked that the Israelis were Fighters and that they were You know they reminded him Of the shotgun over the Mantelpiece that was There for every you know American Pioneer and it was Just happening in the Middle East instead of in North America So a lot of people correctly, I think, identify this as one of the easiest ways that Israel sold its kinship with America and to Americans.

48:42These days, maybe not so much, because even if it was out of style by the 1940s for some, probably isn't so much in style now. In fact, I guess I would close my answer by saying we've had an interesting switcheroo where now a lot of Israel, pro-Israel voices will say Israel, in fact, is decolonial. And Israel is the one who was, the Jews were colonized, in fact, by these Arabs and driven out and they're reclaiming their indigenous role in that land. So the arguments change very drastically and sometimes to a comic level of contradiction. But the ultimate case remains the same, which is that Jewish settlers should have the right to steal other people's land and do whatever they want to the people there.

49:24So So whether it was LBJ back then or Brandeis back then or Chuck Schumer and the Atlantic magazine now, you have the same bottom line. Yeah, absolutely. The series is fantastic. Noah, tell people where they can go in order to subscribe and get access to it. Sure. So this series is behind a paywall. It's for our premium subscribers only. You can sign up for$29 a year at blowback.show. And with that, you get the ad-free, bingeable. You know, you could take every one of our past six seasons and you could listen to it right now. Back to back. No ads. And it's 10 episodes. Well, thank you. And so if you go to blowback.show right now, hit the big button that says subscribe and you'll get immediate access to all that.

50:08And we're shaking up our merch and our digital presence a little bit later this year. So stay tuned. And as always, we have more shit to announce soon. Excellent. Excited for the merch shakeup. Gentlemen, thank you so much. That's fantastic. See you guys. Thank you. Thank you. All right. That does it for us today. We're going to be tracking the election results tonight very closely. Ryan is going to be in New York and he is going to join me tomorrow for a full breakdown of that, as well as whatever additional news breaks, which we know there will be many things consequential between today and tomorrow.

50:38So we will see you then for that. We'll see you all then. And I will be out for a little bit of a period of time on vacation. We're all going to be there's going to be a lot of different combinations here on Breaking Point. So don't freak out. Everything's all good. We'll see you then.

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Krystal and Saagar discuss the affordability crisis on home ownership, Israel's nuclear blackmail plot.

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