6/24/26: Iran Denies Trump Nuclear Claims, Tulsi Resigns, UAE Sudan Horrors

24:17This is the case in some of them, obviously not in all. But then there's the other aspect, which is Inara, which is that after the JCPOA, Congress decided that the president had to come to Congress and make sure that he got it approved. But it was a reversal approval. It would have to be a vote of no confidence that would have to have 60 votes. And all the president needed to have back in 2015 was 40 votes to make sure that that vote of no confidence wouldn't go through, essentially. But that is in case if it is a nuclear deal, a new variation of the nuclear deal. If you notice, the Trump administration has never referred to this as a nuclear deal.

24:58They're talking about a U.S. Iran deal, a transformational deal. I suspect that that is because they're at least hoping that perhaps they can avoid Inara altogether by saying it doesn't meet the definition because this is not a nuclear deal. But even if it does and they have to go to Congress, the biggest concern I have is not that they wouldn't be able to pass it or that they wouldn't be able to defeat a resolution of no confidence, but rather that this will just add more time to the clock and would create more problems and delays more than anything else. And I really do hope that they try to wrap this up as quickly as possible.

25:39So let me tell you one reason why. Sure. The JCPOA essentially ended up taking roughly a year longer than it should have because the two sides were just over negotiating. By the time it was struck and by the time the implementation started, there was such fatigue in the White House with Iran. They had focused so much on Iran at the expense of other issues. But it also left the Obama administration with very little time to do proper implementation of the deal.

26:06Ryan Grim:Interesting. And then it made it easier for the next administration to uproot it. So if they manage to get this done fast and give enough time of implementation and anchoring of this deal, it will make it more difficult for any future administration if they were to choose to go against this, to be able to uproot it. And having had that experience, I think they should be very careful not to repeat that mistake. Well, Dr. Truj Parsi, as always, value your analysis so much. Thank you so much for taking the time this morning. Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Why is it always chaos when we link up?

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28:51Ryan Grim:A new extraordinary report in The Washington Post details just how much Tulsi Gabbard, especially in the early days of her political career, used the verbatim talking points that came from her cult leader guru. This is a Washington Post report by John Swain. We can put this up on the screen. The headline here is Tulsi Gabbard, her guru, and the mysterious messages that helped shape her political career. And the journalist who tracked all of this down in an extraordinary investigation, John Swain, joins us now. John, welcome. Great to have you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, of course. So I would, this is the story of how you came across all of these memos being exchanged is incredible.

29:37Ryan Grim:The content of the memos themselves is extraordinary. So why don't we start with the backstory here of how you stumbled upon this story, how you dug into it, and were able to come up with this treasure trove of communications? Sure. So there had been good coverage in recent years about the fact that Tulsi Gabbard grew up in this faith group, the Science of Identity Foundation. but there was still this sort of central mystery of whether that mattered and what if any influence her guru Chris Butler who's the leader of the group had on her and on her politics and so when she was nominated to be director of national intelligence excuse me by Donald Trump we at the post decided we should try and answer that question and I looked into it in November 2024 I went to Hawaii I tried to speak with people and kind of struck out I got pretty much nowhere no one wanted to talk to me.

30:27I got asked to leave the street where the guru lives by the police. And I kind of had to move on. And nine months later, someone from the group, a member of the group who I'd spoken with originally, and had sort of played down the importance of the group and the importance of the guru to Tulsi Gabbard. She got back in touch. Her name's Rebecca Salzberg. And she basically told me, you know, I didn't really give you the full story last time. And over the course of weeks, she told me how she had actually worked very closely with Tulsi Gabbard on her election campaigns and had worked for and with the guru.

31:05She'd had meetings with him and spoken with him. And to cut a long story short, some questions I asked her prompted her to log in to an old Gmail account that she had. And in that inbox, remarkably, were hundreds of memos which documented advice, guidance, directives, talking points to Tulsi Gabbard from the years when she was in Congress.

31:30Ryan Grim:Now, the pushback that came from this faith group, some may say cult, I guess I'll leave it to the viewers to decide how they want to characterize it, was effectively these memos that you got your hands on, they're unsigned. You don't know who they came from. You don't know, you know, you don't know what this guidance directly, where it directly came from. So how did you go about ascertaining that pretty likely these memos were coming from the leader of the faith group himself? So first of all, Rebecca Salzberg, the source I mentioned from the start, said, you know, she understood these to be from the guru, Chris Butler.

32:06She was one of the recipients of these documents. There was a small political team around the guru, including Rebecca and Tulsi's parents and a few other select disciples of the guru. And she was adamant, you know, these are all from Butler. And the reason they're unsigned is precisely to protect him in the event that a reporter or someone else got hold of them. and there are hundreds of them and in 19 of them I managed to find that there were indirect identifications, self-identifications that showed it was Butler. There would be times when the unsigned or the unnamed voice would be talking to Tulsi and saying you know I'm your guru, you're my disciple, that sort of thing and so in those ones it was obvious that it was Butler.

32:49As you said the group basically said well sure but all the other ones are not him and it didn't really it didn't really seem to like hold much water all of the documents were formatted exactly the same there was nothing to distinguish the other ones from the ones where Butler did self-identify so it wasn't really clear to me how people receiving them were supposed to sort of distinguish who was speaking if not only one person and there were clues dotted around various documents you know there was this 173 page dossier of policy advice for Tulsi on all sorts of different things. And deep within it was just this offhand reminiscence about working as a teenager in Hawaii.

33:29And the guru grew up in Hawaii. The two other people that the group claimed were behind these things did not. And so every piece of information that pointed towards someone in particular pointed toward the guru and to not someone else. There was never any counter indication among these documents. And so we feel that the evidence is pretty weighty. Rebecca, the source who gave us the documents is adamant and, you know, says that they were butler. And we lay out the kind of the case as to why in the story.

34:01Ryan Grim:So some people may say, OK, well, you know, political candidates, they get advice from a variety of places. What's the big deal? And I think one of the things that's very compelling in your piece is you're able to track down these memos and the language that is offered in the memos with direct verbatim tweets that were put out by Tulsi, and also with specific language that she used in her media appearances. You pulled one example from a CNN media appearance at the time where the language is almost verbatim, what was suggested in the memo that appears to come from her guru. This is C3, guys. Let's go ahead and play this so people can take a look.

34:40The issue here is not about me saying, boo-hoo, I'm gonna miss the party,

34:50Ryan Grim:So for those who are just listening, there's a visual comparison here of her language, boohoo, I'm not going to miss the party, or I'm going to miss the party with the language from the guru, which also included boohoo, I'm going to miss the party. So, and this was not an isolated instance. Talk about the overlap and how significant this advice was, how much Tulsi seemed to adhere to what she was being told to do, instructed to do via these memos. Yeah, I think there are really three things, three areas that make it unusual and different to the usual situation that you mentioned, where people have advisors who give them advice and sort of suggest things.

35:30One, the talking points memos that you just talked about, where we found 32 talking points documents for specific interviews she was to give. And in 24 instances, a colleague and I, Aaron Schaefer, went through the transcripts, compared them with the talking points. we found that she'd used almost verbatim phrasing from these documents and the other eight times similar ideas. You know, that's pretty remarkable. I think, you know, politicians, the principle in that relationship between advisor and politician gets advice and steers on where they should go and what they should avoid. But, you know, to use verbatim phrasing from one person, it seemed seemed unusual.

36:13The second area is that in some of these memos, we see remarkably specific instructions, you know, release a press release tomorrow on this, then propose a bill. And sure enough, the next day she releases a press release, and then a week after proposes a bill in exactly the same terms as the memo recommended. And I think the third area that really sets it apart from this usual advisor-politician relationship is this sharp criticism, this harsh language that the unnamed advisor who outsources his butler, criticizing Tulsi Gabbard for her poor performance as he saw it. So he uses expletives to tell her no one cared about her response to Barack Obama's State of the Union speech, tells her that she's mealy-mouthed, that she's lazy, she hasn't done her homework.

37:03And people I speak with say that's pretty unusual for an advisor to be being quite so bold in sort of in slapping down a member of Congress and telling them basically that they suck. And so, you know, that in those three ways, it really seemed to be more than usual.

37:22Ryan Grim:You also document and your source, Rebecca, was part of an effort to create sort of inorganic, you know, anonymous accounts or I guess, you know, with pseudonyms, fake accounts to back up and go to bat for Tulsi and various social media platforms. So that part is significant as well. But to your point about the language, I mean, some of it was really borderline abusive. It actually made me feel some sympathy for her because it's long been known. You know, she was raised in this group. Her parents were high up in this group. Chris Butler has apparently been long been interested in politics, ran a slate of candidates in Hawaii.

37:56Ryan Grim:So these pieces were known. But to see this sort of like, you know, like humiliating language there also gave a little bit of a sense of the way the mechanisms of control seem to work here. You know, where you would you would degrade someone. I remember at one point I think he said something like, don't worry, no matter how much you screw up tomorrow, me and Krishna will still love you. Things like that. That just seems sort of like classic manipulative and abusive techniques. I wanted you to respond to one of the criticisms I saw of your piece, which is that this is anti-Hindu bigotry, that if this was a Christian group, you wouldn't single them out for such scrutiny in this same way.

38:40Ryan Grim:Which personally, I think if there is a Christian group operating this way and Christian groups are very influential in our politics, they should receive this level of scrutiny. But I wonder what is your response to that allegation? It's pretty much what you just said. If this were a Christian group and we got hold of these documents that documented quite such harsh criticism and direct instructions, we would do the story. It would just make no difference. And Tulsi Gabbard has long said that Chris Butler is her spiritual teacher and likened him to an imam, a priest, a rabbi. I think the piece makes pretty clear that this goes way beyond the usual relationship with a faith leader.

39:21And to come back around to what we were just both saying, if any rabbi, priest, imam were being quite so direct and quite so harsh with a member of Congress, we would do the story all the same. It has no difference.

39:35Ryan Grim:Last question for you is on the timing, because it is a little bit unfortunate. Now we're learning all this and she's out of the job. Her removal, resignation, however you want to characterize it, from her position as DNI came shortly after your reporting on this story was set to drop. So what do you make of that timing? Was that incidental? Was that related to your piece? And why was there – I know you've been working on this for months. I'm not trying to impugn you here whatsoever. But I'm just curious about the timing of how this worked out because for those of us on the outside, it's like, oh, dang, now that she's gone, we know all these things.

40:13Sure. So you're right. Like I, in late May, sent her and her representatives a whole load of questions again and said, you know, we're probably going to go ahead with this. We would like your responses. And I gave her till 5pm Friday to respond. And 1pm Friday, it was announced she was resigning. I don't know anything beyond that connection, honestly. she says you know it seems like her husband sadly was diagnosed with a serious cancer and he's receiving treatment and that's what she said she was leaving to do to support him so you know the timing may be coincidental I honestly don't know in terms of the timing yeah it is a tough thing in the in journalism where you try and get the story out as soon as you can but it has to be ready and you know to be honest in March when I first went to Tulsi Gabbard and to the group and to other people and ending the story.

41:02They came back with this claim that the memos were not from the guru. And although I felt there was evidence at odds with that, we had to take that seriously because that's what they say. And so I had to spend a lot more time digging into that, seeing whether there was any way that what they were saying was borne out in the evidence, in the documents. And I, you know, I didn't find anything that supported their version, but we, you know, As you know, we all get a lot of abuse from politicians for rushing to the story and not giving their side of the story. We wanted to take their side of the story seriously, and we had to do that until it was ready and until we had all the responses we needed.

41:43Ryan Grim:John, fantastic work on this. I really recommend that people read the entire piece because I think it is quite extraordinary, both like I said, in terms of how you ended up with this trove, but also, of course, most importantly, what it reveals about the way that Tulsi Gabbard appears to have been operating. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm really grateful. Thank you. Bro, from the show last night to this drive, why is it never chill? Because this is our life backstage on the road. It's loud, messy, real. And that's the best part. Whole crew, no plan, just moving. Good thing Nissan builds for that kind of chaos.

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44:51And then another massive war broke out. As that one is receding, the war between, hopefully receding between the U.S., Iran, Israel, Hezbollah, we want to pick back up on some of that coverage. And particularly at this moment, because you can roll E1 here, the RSF, which is the UAE-funded kind of rebel group in Sudan, is threatening to take on an incredible massacre in Al-Obed. So previously, as we reported, when the RSF took over a city called El Fasher, the amount of bloodshed, and we put up E2 now, the amount of bloodshed is difficult to calculate. There are estimates that range well into the tens of thousands, if not even above 100 ,000 in the number of people killed.

45:44The mass graves that were visible from the air. We've spoken to guests here who did satellite analysis there, and you could see it literally from outer space, the amount of mass murder by this UAE-backed massive death squad. And now they're on the precipice of doing it again as the world just continues to watch. we can put up um e3 this is uh nathaniel raymond um who's uh the head of yale's humanitarian research lab which has been doing the the most significant work kind of uh analyzing and trying to bring attention to this uh to this crisis this crisis and this looming uh massacre which again there are hundreds hundreds of tens or hundreds of thousands of people alive right now who may not be very soon if the world doesn't do something to stop the uae's backed uh forces here so she So he testified in front of a UK committee saying that, you know, effectively what he's saying is that if anybody just says anything about the UAE here, just one word, just say something and highlight the fact that the UAE is facilitating this, it will raise the cost to them of doing it such that it just simply may not happen.

47:07Now, we can put up E4 here. The State Department has issued a warning that this massacre is possible. They write, there are alarming indications that mass atrocities could be imminent, further worsening Sudan's already catastrophic humanitarian crisis, unquote. And then they call on the RSF and their allies, but again, not mentioning the UAE. And as DropSite reports here, previously, we've been able to track military cargo shipments that went from the UAE to Libya and then moved from there into Sudan. So there's no mystery about what's happening here. Now, Julian Andrione, my drop site reporter up on the Hill, caught up with Chris Van Hollen, who has probably been the senator who's been most out outspoken on this in the House.

47:59It's been Sarah Jacobs and asked him both about the U.A.'s role and what what he thinks can be done to try to prevent this. Let's roll that. We just need to keep the pressure on. I mean, they're obviously, you know, we need to keep showing the hypocrisy of the Trump administration policy where they they claim they want to do something, but refuse to take some of the basic actions we could take as a country. We just need to keep the pressure on. So I saw your statement about the 6 ,000 civilians who were killed by the RSF in October. Now there's 500 ,000 more at risk. I'm wondering whether you've spoken with the ambassador to the UAE or what the progress is with that.

48:44Well, I have in the past, but more recently, as part of a Senate Foreign Relations Committee markup on a bill dealing with Sudan, I proposed two amendments. The First Amendment would be to say that the United States will not sell, transfer military equipment to the UAE so long as the UAE continues to finance the murders RSF organization, which has been responsible for these huge atrocities. And the transcript will be available pretty soon, but nobody seemed to object on the merits. But Republicans all voted no on that. Some Democrats voted now. So I offered another amendment that said any party that is fueling the war in Sudan.

49:36And so in order to be able to carry out this extraordinary level of violence around the world, particularly in Sudan, while also maintaining a decent image globally, the UAE engages in some of the most aggressive, what they call sports washing in the country. And that's through their financing of both the NBA and also a bunch of different football teams. I want to roll real quickly. This is Jeremy Conondyke, who's the president of Refugees International. talking about the way that even Mamdani with the Arsenal jersey, with the sport of the NBA, and never raising the level of involvement that the UAE has with these has some level of complicity as well.

50:20Let's roll this. Another question came in. Did Mayor Mamdani send the wrong message with his Arsenal away jersey at Eid? Seems he'd be an ally to your efforts. Yeah, we saw that for sure. We're going to reach out to his office. I think what it underscores is just how, you know, how effective this sports washing approach is, right? People put an Arsenal jersey on, they put an NBA jersey on, they don't even think about what it says on the front. It's just, you know, they don't think about what that implies and what they are part of when they do that. And so I think what we, that is also the importance of a campaign like this one.

50:59And if people become aware, just as John described in the case with Rhonda, if people become aware of what they are representing when they have that on the front of their shirt, what that means, what they are part of, why that name is on there, I think there will be a backlash. And I do hope Mayor Mamdani will try to engage him on that. I got to think he would be sympathetic to understanding why that's problematic. And the unique thing about, Dan, about the NBA is that, and we mentioned this already, but it's this history of support for social justice causes, particularly racial justice. And when we're talking about genocide that's occurring in Sudan, genocide is the deliberate destruction of people's lives and livelihoods on the basis of their identity, their race, their ethnicity.

51:48This is exactly what the RSF is doing. This is the group that the UAE has decided to support in the Sudan conflict. The war would not be as remotely as destructive to human life if the UAE was not involved in it. That's the news. The UAE is on the cusp of carrying out a horrific massacre in El Obeyed. It hasn't happened yet. It doesn't have to happen. But if none of the countries that are allies with the UAE say a word to them about it, it's going to happen.

52:25Ryan Grim:And the world will once again stand by and watch. And you do have some countries, as you point out, like the U.S., that are willing to say, like, don't slaughter civilians, but unwilling to put any culpability or use any of the immense leverage and pressure that could be brought to bear to stop the arming of the RSF. And just to give people a little bit more detail and texture here of what's going on if they haven't followed this closely. So, first of all, the reason this particular city is really, you know, is even more consequential is because you have mass displacement already of, you know, people who are now refugees within Sudan and also externally from Sudan.

53:06Ryan Grim:And this city, Al-Obaid, is one of the primary places where people have gathered, where internally displaced people have already gone. So you have we you showed earlier that images of people intense, you know, these are people who have already been forced to flee their homes. And estimates are, you know, 100 ,000 plus who are now congregated in this city, which is effectively experiencing a siege at this point. And all these RSF forces are amassing. It's also I think people will understand why the UAE is involved and other regional players are involved here, too, because Sudan has this critical geostrategic location on the Red Sea.

53:45Ryan Grim:And so, Giffen, we can apply what we've learned with regard to Iran and the Strait of Hormuz to understanding why there is such a rush to fund the sides of this war, this horrific – you can't really even call it a civil war because it's really not about the people there. The democratic movement was displaced by these – what were once in concert, these two military sides that then split off from each other after they successfully executed this military coup. So there really is no side that's like the good side or on the side of the people. There are just different forms of military dictatorship that want to be implemented here.

54:22Ryan Grim:So in any case, there's, you know, it's a geostrategic positioning. It's about fight for natural resources. There are ethnic, you know, divisions that are certainly at play here. The RSF is basically like an Arab group of Arab supremacist death squad is effectively what I would what I would call it. But in any case, that's why so many countries have interested themselves, including the UAE, in this war and in fueling this violence and these mass atrocities. Right. And meanwhile, Trump and his family are just completely on the take from the UAE. It would be nice if Trump was like, oh, hey, this would be my 37th war that I could end.

55:05And so I can get another FIFA Peace Prize or whatever. But when he hears the UAE is involved, he's like, oh, never mind. You know?

55:12Ryan Grim:Yeah. Like, it's – the level of corruption, it's kind of unprecedented to have a president that is this conflicted that, you know, he's literally – I don't think it's kind of unprecedented. I think it is unprecedented. It really is. I don't think we've ever seen anything equivalent or even remotely equivalent. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. Yeah. It's – yeah. Yeah. And so unless people start raising the cost for the UAE of doing this, they're going to keep doing it. Yeah. And it wouldn't it's not that hard to raise the cost. They don't want any attention on this right now. They're getting none. If there's just a little makes it very hard for them to keep doing.

55:56Ryan Grim:Well, shout out to Chris Van Hollen and Sarah Jacobs for doing all that they can from the House and the Senate with very little backup and, you know, with a lot of odds against them. So, you know, make sure you guys are engaging with your members of Congress to encourage them to sign on to these efforts. And we are going to push the Elon versus Roe conversation to tomorrow because we had too much to say about the elections from last night. I think people will be OK with that. But I have a feeling that Roe and Elon, the world's first trillionaire, will still be fighting tomorrow. It seems like it's going.

56:30Ryan Grim:So we can cover that then. And I'm sure we're also going to get into a lot of there's just I have so much to say about what's going to happen and the media reaction and the Democratic establishment freak out. That's going to be very juicy to dive into tomorrow as well. So be me and Ryan back here again tomorrow. Any last thoughts, Ryan? No, looking forward to it. All right, buddy. Get some rest. Takeover. and get some rest. I'll see you back here tomorrow and see you guys back here tomorrow too.

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