In short
The episode argues that left-wing Democratic victories are driven less by race than by age, renter status, and organizing capacity, and that elite politics is “pushing to the brink.” It highlights Colorado and New York wins for DSA-linked candidates, including Malak Kuros unseating longtime Rep. Diana DeGette after being fired for speaking on Palestine, and New York DSA candidates Claire Valdez and Daria Elisa Vila Chevalier.
Key claims
DSA coalitions are “very young,” heavily millennial, and indexed to renters; Valdez won under-50 voters of all races by large margins and also won 50+ voters; campaigns that knock 300,000 doors can out-organize incumbents.
Notable examples
right-wing media attacks on DSA “whiteness” vs “third-world takeover” are treated as contradictory.
Guests
Michael Lang, author of the Narrative Wars Substack, who studies coalition dynamics in NYC. The episode also discusses MTG and Tucker Carlson floating third-party efforts and reports Mitch McConnell found unconscious after possible cardiac arrest, plus Tom Keene’s long depression hospitalization and criticism from Lauren Boebert.
Written by AI. May contain mistakes. Listen to the episode to check what was said.
Chapters
Tap a time to open that second in VOVictories for the Left in Colorado
1:08 to 2:06
Discussing recent progressive victories in Colorado's elections.
“the left wing of the Democratic Party notched a few more victories, big ones in Colorado this week, including with Malak Kuros, political newcomer.”
Coalitions Behind DSA Victories
2:06 to 5:48
Exploring the factors influencing voter support for DSA candidates in New York City.
“where the character of the coalitions has really been disputed and become a sort of narrative war is a perfect title for what is going on with regard to who is actually voting for these candidates.”
Age Polarization in Voting Trends
5:48 to 7:25
Analyzing how age influences support for DSA candidates across various demographics.
“She won the young under 50 by a landslide and the old 50 plus by a comfortable margin.”
Racial Dynamics in DSA Support
7:25 to 12:05
Discussing the racial dynamics and perceptions surrounding DSA candidates after recent elections.
“But it was kind of the culmination of, I would say, a decade of work kind of going into that as well.”
Future of the Democratic Party and Left Values
12:05 to 14:00
Speculating on the implications of DSA's success for the Democratic Party's future.
“I think it's very unique that Zoran was able to transfer his coalition.”
Democratic Party's Changing Demographics
14:00 to 18:08
Exploring the evolving demographics of the Democratic Party and its implications.
“But the party is getting younger, more diverse, more college educated.”
MTG and Tucker's Third Party Idea
18:14 to 21:08
Discussing Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson's thoughts on forming a third party.
“Yesterday, both Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson floated the idea of working on a third party.”
Challenges of Third Party Movements
21:08 to 28:00
Examining the historical challenges faced by third-party movements in the U.S.
“He's asked, would he be a candidate for the third party?”
Shaping the Republican Party's Future
28:00 to 36:00
Explore the potential direction of the Republican Party under MTG and Tucker Carlson's influence.
“If that's what they're getting at, it's much more possible.”
Mitch McConnell's Health and Political Implications
36:00 to 42:01
Discuss the recent health issues faced by Mitch McConnell and their impact on his political role.
“New reporting about the state of Mitch McConnell's health.”
Show all 13 chapters
Congressional Accountability and Mental Health
42:01 to 45:17
Discussing the implications of a congressman taking four months off for mental health issues and its impact on accountability.
“I mean, you know, did his constituents or the nation suffer because he wasn't there doing his job for four months.”
Mitch McConnell's Power and Transparency
45:18 to 48:34
Exploring Mitch McConnell's continued power amidst health issues and lack of transparency in Congress.
“He is at the top of the rules committee.”
Political System and Public Accountability
48:35 to 50:34
Analyzing how the political system allows leaders to hide their health issues from the public and the implications of such secrecy.
“obviously when they're clinging to every single seat they possibly can.”
Transcript
Automatic transcript. May contain errors.0:00This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.
0:04Emily Jashinsky:I turned off news altogether. I hate to say it, but I don't trust much of anything. It's the rage bait. It feels like it's trying to divide people. We got clear facts. Maybe we can calm down a little. NBC News brings you clear reporting. Let's meet at the facts. Let's move forward from there. NBC News reporting for America. Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election. And we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else.
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1:00Emily Jashinsky:We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com.
1:08So as you guys know, the left wing of the Democratic Party notched a few more victories, big ones in Colorado this week, including with Malak Kuros, political newcomer. She was inspired to run after she got fired from her job as a lawyer for speaking out with regards to Palestine. She unseated a 30-year incumbent in Diana DeGette, truly astonishing someone who has been in Congress longer than Milat Kuros has been alive. Let's take a look at a little bit of her victory speech. We are winning from coast to coast, from every level of office. We are taking back our party and our country.
1:50So who are the people behind these victories? Who are the voters that are making these big wins for the left happen? Joining us now is Michael Lang. He is the author of the Narrative Wars Substack, and he digs deep into these coalitions, especially in New York City, where the character of the coalitions has really been disputed and become a sort of narrative war is a perfect title for what is going on with regard to who is actually voting for these candidates. Michael, great to see you. Oh, it's such a pleasure to be here. Thanks. Yeah, of course. Of course. So I feel that the critique of the DSA has become a bit confused.
2:25Some feel that it is too white and just college-educated white gentrifiers. Some, like Stephen Miller, Jesse Waters, feel that it is too many third-worldists, as they put it, too many black and brown people, and we let in too many immigrants, and that's what's going on here. You actually dug into the numbers so that we can deal with facts and reales. Let's put C3 up on the screen. This was your headline when narratives meet facts about specifically the victories of Claire Valdez and Daria Liza Chevalier in New York City. What did you find about these particular winning coalitions for two DSA candidates?
3:05Yeah, I mean, I think there's plenty of variables that go into one support for socialism or progressive values, things like that. But when you kind of strip everything away, it's not necessarily race. It's not even college education. It's not even sometimes renters versus homeowners. It's just a kind of a proxy war for age. And this was kind of the story of the Mamdani coalition in New York City last year. You know, there was a lot that was made of his kind of lack of support among black voters in the Democratic primary last year. But that was just a function of kind of the age of that electorate.
3:40He did very well with white, Hispanic and South Asian voters. But those Democrats were much younger. And you see even, you know, in the cases of Claire Valdez and Daria Elisa, Vila Chevalier, you know, they're not just winning white voters or white voters under 50. They're winning voters of all races under 50. And again, to win an election, in Claire Valdez's case, by 20 points in that North Brooklyn-Western Queens-Common corridor, to defeat a 10-year incumbent in the 13th Congressional District, which has more renters than any other district in America, you can't really build the winning coalitions as they did.
4:21if you're just, again, relying on a very thin slice of college-educated, more white-collar professionals, things like that.
4:32Emily Jashinsky:Part of your analysis was super interesting as well, that even with Espolat, it was pretty close with Hispanic voters over 50. So I think Espolat still won, but barely, right? Those numbers started to become really, really close. Yeah, I mean, that was another kind of shocking piece of digging into it more because, again, you know, he is the kind of the Dominican political trailblazer here in upper Manhattan in the Bronx. And I mean, again, in those communities, he did do quite well. You know, I would imagine, again, particularly with voters under 50 and voters over 50. But there are also many Hispanic voters who live in that district who are not, you know, who are not Dominican, they're Puerto Rican, they're Mexican.
5:14And I think that's where he really struggled because, you know, take a neighborhood like East Harlem, for instance, which again is younger and is kind of outside of his base, but still very Hispanic. That was a place where Dario Elisa was able to do very well. But then again, you know, Washington Heights and the Bronx, older places, you know, he kind of held on, but he still didn't really get the margins that he needed out of his core base of support. And again, it points to this age polarization that we've discussed so much. You have a quote in your piece. You say Claire Valdez won every age bracket and racial group.
5:52She won the young under 50 by a landslide and the old 50 plus by a comfortable margin. So even as you find that the most dramatic divides are around age, and sure enough, if you look at the numbers, the younger you are, the more likely you were to support a DSA candidate. But it seems that they're even making inroads with older voters, with voters that in previous cycles would have been very unlikely to vote for a DSA candidate. Of course. Yeah. And I mean, I think that's kind of a testament to the close to the decade plus of political organizing that DSA has been able to do in New York City. You know, and again, you know, this is something this is kind of a theme of my writing.
6:32Ideology, I think, matters a lot, but also the voters kind of relationships to the candidates, the institutions they represent and just kind of DSA and Mamdani now becoming these widely viewed and in the case of New York City, widely liked institutions. that does create a greater familiarity with older voters. And again, also this, you know, when you're the Claire Valdez campaign and you knock over 300 ,000 doors, you basically do outreach to every real grassroots outreach to every Democrat in the seventh congressional district. You know, that's kind of the margins that you manifest, basically.
7:10And it's, you know, for again, there was a lot of talk about, you know, oh, you know, the Reynoso campaign, things like that. They've been there for longer. They're the ones more rooted in the community, but they were essentially out-organized. And again, 300 ,000 doors is a tremendous number, things like that. But it was kind of the culmination of, I would say, a decade of work kind of going into that as well.
7:35Emily Jashinsky:Yeah, that makes sense. Well, let's go into the racial dynamics because they're getting a lot of attention from places like Fox News. So we'll roll here C2. Here's a rabbi complaining about the whiteness of the crowd at the Milak Kuros victory celebration. This is a VO. Folks, we can play C2 so you can see what Rabbi Pupko is responding to. And then let's actually go ahead and flip to C1. This is Asat. This is Milak Keros talking about the victory after winning. So you can compare videos. We are winning from coast to coast, from every level of office. We are taking back our party and our country.
8:27Emily Jashinsky:Lots of enthusiasm in that video. So tell us, I mean, here's also Jesse Waters. Let's roll Jesse Waters here. C4, Jesse Waters is complaining. These two things are existing at the same time, and they don't totally make sense. So Jesse Waters complaining about the racial composition. Crazy communists to right-wing tough guys. Is that how America is supposed to be? Because that's the way it looks. These people don't believe in borders, capitalism, our founding fathers. They're here to steal, punish us, and then throw around welfare. This is a third world takeover. This is what happens when you import the third world.
9:08Did you know that New York City is 70 % non-white, 40 % foreign-born, 50 % of the apartments, they don't even speak English, not even their first language. These three women who Mondani endorsed weren't even born in New York City, weren't even raised in New York City. They're carpetbaggers, carpetbaggers, Jessica. And everyone's talking about like, oh, Mondami. Oh, you got all this juice. Like he's this like harmless novice politician on a hot streak. This guy is trouble. This guy is a Trojan horse. And communism is going to take over the Democratic Party. And then we're going to have to beat it because you can't can't do anything else besides beat it to a pulp.
9:55Emily Jashinsky:So, Michael, what we see there is the right not knowing whether they should say DSA voters are too white or not white enough. So help us parse what the actual composition of the DSA coalition looks like from Colorado to New York City. Yeah, I mean, I think you've seen in kind of how people have responded to this that they're responding in a way in which it's like, I don't really know what I'm up against. I mean, I think, again, first and foremost, the DSA and the Democratic Socialist Coalition, it is very young. It's very millennial heavy. Shout out to you guys. Right. Best generation, probably.
10:33Not probably. Definitely. Right. But it's also, you know, again, heavily indexed towards renters. You know, again, it's very difficult for younger people, again, particularly in these urban areas, to own an apartment, much less a home. I mean, again, very college educated. That was another big thread kind of between Colorado one and New York seven. It's like lots of millennials, very high percentage of renters and very college educated, like 90th percent style and above. So it's kind of those three things kind of mixing together. And I think that you put those ingredients together, it's like very potent factors to kind of organize politically.
11:19And again, you're seeing also as, you know, kind of civic institutions and those civic bonds that I think for, again, most of the 20th century kind of held society together. As those are fraying, you see organizations like DSA kind of fill the void, not just in terms of, you know, providing people an organizing home, but also like, you know, real social bonds, you know, friendship. It's, you know, it's like a kind of, you know, a collective, you know, like a share, you know, shared principles and interests and things like that. And again, and as these organizations have grown, as they've won more campaigns, they're also more embedded in not just community, but in government, too.
12:01And, you know, that also builds trust and grows. And then you have an avatar like Saron Mamdani that can kind of take that vision to a grander scale and introduce even more people to kind of what it means. I think it's very unique that Zoran was able to transfer his coalition. And Obama wasn't able to do that. Trump has not been able to do that. So it speaks to that level of organizing. And I think also a very cohesive vision that Zoran has that people can— and also his orientation is very communal. You know, that's something he talks about a lot, where he's not— even though he is this incredibly charismatic leader, it's not just all about him.
12:37It's about the ideas, about what he's doing for New York. So when people see, oh, Daria Lisa, she's Zoran's candidate, that means something to them. But the other thing that I wanted to ask you about, Michael, is to project this out a bit into the future. You know, Bernie Sanders ran into the buzzsaw of, like, older black voters in the South in both of his presidential campaigns. And I think part of the freak out from the Dem establishment right now is a realization that their assumption that these left wing values and candidates would only ever appeal to first young white voters and then all multiracial young voters.
13:17And then now, OK, the older white voters are also voting for them. And now they're making inroads with older multiracial coalition. Like their assumption that the coalition would permanently stay stuck in a way that it was not a winning one. I think those are proving pretty faulty. So what does that look like going forward for the possibilities within the Democratic Party? I mean, again, you know, late Tuesday night, early Wednesday morning, that was the question everyone was asking. It's like, how do you how do you how can you really take this national? And I think, I mean, certainly it seems like, you know, the macro political conditions of Trump 2.0 have lined up very well in 2025, 2026, and I would suspect 2028.
13:59I mean, it's just also like, look, is the Democratic Party New York City? Not necessarily. Is it Denver? Not exactly either. But the party is getting younger, more diverse, more college educated. Well, is it Maine? Is it Michigan where, you know, Abdul El-Sayed is winning? The truth is that it's probably all of these things combined, right, literally and figuratively, but it's also the Democratic primary electorate's also getting a little more urbanized, things like that. And I think that, does it mean that Zeran Mamdani Copycat wins in 28? I'm not sure. But it does mean that certain parts of the mass field organizing, the kind of the media, or sorry, the visual articulation of a narrative about affordability, about kind of your micro position in the economy, but also how it relates to these greater forces like oligarchy and corporatocracy, things like that.
15:04It's kind of blending all of that together. And I mean, I do think though that to your point, the greater establishment panic in reaction to Tuesday, it's like a soft acknowledgement that they have lost kind of the next generation. And that next generation is increasingly like asserting themselves far before they were ever like supposed to. Yeah. And that I think represents a real threat. Let me also float this. I'm just thinking this through in real time. But one of the ways that the establishment Democrats were able to beat back the Bernie Sanders insurgency was by a weaponization of identity politics.
15:42And, you know, Hillary Clinton really is the person who sort of like introduces this particular strain of wokeism into the Democratic Party when she says, oh, breaking up the big banks isn't going to end racism. And so that was it was very it was pretty successful. And that type of politics has, I think, been fairly discredited and is certainly not as central in the Democratic Party now as it once was. So, for example, you have this very incredibly diverse group of candidates who are trailblazers, who are running and winning as DSA candidates. But that's not the center or the focus of why you should vote for them.
16:17And I think that that also is helping to create the possibility of a broader coalition. Because underneath it all, like, yeah, if you're renters, you have a series of similar concerns, whether you're like young and college educated and saddled with student debt and very limited job prospects, or whether you are, you know, someone who is older, who is struggling with the economy in the way that most Americans are. There are a lot of universalist principles at stake here that bind these groups together much more than create differences between them. Yeah. And I think to to kind of add to what you said, the electability narrative is also, I think, been used to really hurt progressive and left candidates.
16:58I especially felt that in 2020. But that narrative is complete, you know, kind of completely exploded with Kamala Harris in 2024 and Hillary Clinton. And so I think that's also why, you know, it almost feels like every Tuesday we go to an even more higher stakes election. That's where if someone like Abdul El-Sayed or Graham Plattner can win in Michigan or win in Maine, that would really, again, I think, you know, strike a significant blow to that narrative. because I do think that, you know, there are a lot of more, quote-unquote, conventional, traditional Democrats who had, you know, been very moved by electability, like we just want someone who can win, things like that, who are now kind of, you know, seeing things far differently given the position that we're in.
17:43Michael, thank you so much for breaking down your analysis. Everybody should go subscribe to the sub stack. It is called Narrative Wars. And the level of detailed analysis that you do in New York City. I mean, it really is really invaluable. Yeah, it's great to see those kind of numbers. It's really helped my understanding of what the dynamics there on the ground. So and also your love of the city comes through in every post, which I appreciate, too. That means a lot. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Yeah, our pleasure. We'll see you again soon.
18:14Emily Jashinsky:Yesterday, both Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson floated the idea of working on a third party. Let's take a listen here to Marjorie Taylor Greene on with Piers Morgan discussing her plans for potentially launching something to compete with the Republican and Democratic parties. But is there a chance that Tucker, and maybe with support of people like yourself, could you see him making a run? I mean, is there a new splinter version of the Republicans that could take over the party? You know, I haven't had that direct conversation with Tucker. I know a lot of people are speculating that.
18:50And I can tell you right now, Tucker Carlson would be a great threat to both parties because there's many Americans that are very independent that would support him. But there's also Republican voters and Democrat voters that would support him. So I would say he's a very credible threat. There is a group of us that have literally fought the system. And I think there's a group of us that if we decide to align, we could launch a true America-focused party that doesn't fall into the traps of Democrats and Republicans, but could align some serious players from the right and the left and move forward.
19:34But Piers, I'm also very realistic because I was in the system. I've served in Congress. I've run campaigns. I know what it takes. It's difficult to launch a third party. So the reality is this isn't something that gets off the ground in just a couple of campaign cycles. This is a movement that has to be developed and would take time to develop. I'm not sure where that is right now, but I am in talks with people. And there are serious conversations happening.
20:08Emily Jashinsky:Okay, so she says she's in talks with people and there are serious conversations happening. Now, meanwhile, separately, Tucker Carlson, an interview he did with the Columbia Journalism Review posted yesterday, wherein he talked about this as well. The reporter asked, are you interested in aligning yourself with other anti-war voices? He says, I do know what really matters is war and finance. Where does the money come from? Where does it go and who gets killed? And on those questions, the parties are in lockstep solidarity with each other. That's not a democracy. That's a one-party state posing as a democracy and it needs to be broken.
20:39Emily Jashinsky:And there's going to be a third party. and I'm going to do everything I can to bring that about. He goes on to say, that's the lesson in the last two and a half months to me. If you vote for Trump and you still wind up in a regime change war, if Chuck Schumer is strongly behind Trump's foreign policy, which he is, then we need options or else let's just give up and be ruled by the most unscrupulous people. And I'm just too young to accept that. We need a third party. He then later says, I'm going to help build a third party. There should be a good faith effort to figure out what benefits the country.
21:09Emily Jashinsky:He's asked, would he be a candidate for the third party? He said, I don't want to be a candidate. Before I did the New York Times interview, he's referring to with Lulu Garcia Navarro. Someone said to me, quote, they're going to ask you if you're running for president. I was very tempted to say I'm running on the pro patriarchy ticket just to make sure I gain no new fans and make crystal ball as much of the 2016 meme of the lady screaming into the void as possible. Of course. But that both happened separately yesterday. Neither of them referenced one another, so I don't know if they are coordinating on this together.
21:42Emily Jashinsky:Let's put up one more element, this media headline of Tucker Carlson making a lot of headlines, not just a media for saying not long ago that he was out of the Republican Party. He's been a Republican, he said, his whole life, but he is out now. He's done. How could I or any American voter support a political party that's not loyal to the U.S. that puts the interests of a foreign country above those of its own citizens? He said on June 22nd, it's not possible to vote for people like that, and I'm not going to. So, Crystal, a lot to unpack here, or maybe really not that much to unpack here, because, frankly, I don't think this is happening.
22:16Emily Jashinsky:I think the reason historically we get caught in, or historically you've had third parties be more successful than they've ever been in recent history, is just that money has fundamentally bolstered, augmented the two-party system in ways that it hadn't always in the past. But maybe I'm wrong about that. It's my theory. I just don't see how it's possible to break the two-party infrastructure at all. I mean, if you play this out and think about, OK, what would happen if Marjorie Taylor Greene and Tucker Carlson and Thomas Massey, let's say, start this third party? Like, what would proceed? And what would happen is they would peel off, I don't know, 10 percent, 20 percent maybe?
22:58Maybe. Of the Republican Party. Which makes you a spoiler, basically. And then the Republican Party would be guaranteed to lose by a wide margin. And that's what the result would be. So I encourage them to go in this direction. I mean, you know, as someone on the left who, like, is always thinking about, you know, we've got—been having this third-party conversation on the left for a very long time. And should you do that or should you, like, work within the Democratic Party? And are they going to co-opt you and then you never end up really, you know, being any different than them? And this is an ongoing debate.
23:29Both paths are very difficult. But we can see with DSA what actually works. Look at the DSA versus look at the Green Party. What is, you know, and I don't think it's fair. I don't think the Green Party wore the spoilers in 2016. If you look at the numbers, it doesn't really work out because you're assuming all of those voters would show up and would vote for the Democrats if they didn't vote for the Greens. I don't think that really, you know, I don't think that math totally masks. I also don't think that blaming voters for deciding that they prefer this other alternative is really the way to go either.
Read the full transcript
23:57But in any case, you could see the Green Party has had very limited impact on American politics, trying to pursue the third party path and DSA and before the Working Families Party. And, you know, even if you look on the Republican side, the Tea Party or Trump taking over the Republican Party, you can look further back at the DLC taking over the Democratic Party in the 90s, which is not a direction I would want one of them to go in, would want them to go in. But in any case, it was a successful sort of takeover the party. That is the much more likely path of success if you want to change the political system.
24:32So without these more fundamental reforms, which I support, by the way, we should have ranked choice voting. We should make it so that there could be a broader array of political parties and views represented in our politics versus just Democrat and Republican. You have to start there. If you're starting just with the we're going to have the third party and it's going to work out, it's not. And I think to your point about why that is the money is part of it. But I think it's more there's just such hardened partisan loyalties that if you put an R by your name or you put a D by your name, you're like guaranteed a certain chunk.
25:10And then you're building from there. Whereas if you come up, if you create something new, you really are starting from vote number one. And you're at a tremendous, tremendous disadvantage. advantage. So I think it's better to look at these established parties as the hollow husks that they really are. And especially on the Democratic Party side, I mean, truly just a hollow husk. In fact, if you get endorsed by the establishment figures in the Democratic Party, it's a bit of a pox on you and a drag in an election. They have no real organizing capability. You know, they've just been completely— Janet Mills.
25:43Yeah, that's a great example. They've been completely hollowed out. So just look at them as like hollow shells that can be taken over and molded to, you know, a new conception and taken in a different direction. So, but I think for Tucker and Marjorie Taylor Greene, there's a lot of wish casting about what the Republican base wants, would be and wants. But when you actually look at the polling of, do they like Tucker Carlson or do they like Trump? Like it's not even close. So I, maybe that changes, but I think if Tucker were to run or some Tucker-ish figure, Thomas Massey or whoever, were to run in a Republican Party primary, I think they would get destroyed.
26:22Emily Jashinsky:It's interesting because right now polls are finding historic levels of people identifying as independents as opposed to Democrats or Republicans. But to your point about that hardened core, what that does in our primary system is, or I should say what that does in the general election system, is make it so that there is this huge baked-in benefit because it's really hard to overcome when you have roughly 30 percent, 30 percent of the country in either of those directions. And so you're fighting over the scraps of remaining independents. But that's also about voter turnout. So like if you're in a midterm election cycle, the independents aren't turning out as much as the partisans.
26:59Emily Jashinsky:So it's really, really hard to overcome that for the reasons that actually get into how we conduct elections here. So I think the theme of today's show is how elites are pushing to the brink. And I'm very curious. We talked about this in the last block, the comparisons when the dust has settled between the DSA and the Tea Party movement, because the trajectory of the Tea Party movement is utterly depressing, obviously, because Trump comes along, co-ops it. A lot of the establishment Republicans co-opted it. And now the DSA is talking about term limits. I mean, right, like that's the Tea Party movement changed the Republican Party in some ways.
27:33Emily Jashinsky:Like, I'm glad that we have a more protectionist Republican Party right now, slightly more protectionist. Not really. It's now become, that's another part we didn't even get to in the first block about Trump corruption, is how the tariffs have been applied in such a grifty way. So I'm glad that the Overton window has been shifted on some of these issues. But I wonder if the DSA can learn lessons from the Tea Party and actually change the Democratic Party in ways the Tea Party was not able to change the Republican Party. And I wonder if actually that's what MTG and Tucker Carlson are really thinking about, is shaping the Republican Party in a different direction and building on maybe some of the scraps that are remaining from the Tea Party era, that might be the better shot than actually assuming you could have a successful third-party Republican or third-party independent right of center person rise in a presidential election and become the commander-in-chief.
28:27Emily Jashinsky:If that's what they're getting at, it's much more possible. But there are a lot of ways. I mean, the Tea Party was a very powerful political movement, and it didn't end up—I mean, it ended up with Trump, basically. Yeah. And I think there's there's a lot to get in, dig into there. I mean, I think partly and I ran during the Tea Party, like peak of Tea Party 2010 and went to Tea Party meetings and like took their questions and did the whole thing. So I'm very familiar with. Were you for term limits when you ran? No. Interesting. And I think I'm still not. Defensible position. It's a defensible position.
28:59I mean, my thing is just I, if anything, think there should be more democracy, more choice. I'm more in the direction we should force things like debates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that there is more of a democratic choice. People know what they're getting. They're able to evaluate, OK, is my future member of Congress able to string three sentences together or not? That's more the direction I would rather go in, even versus becoming more inclined towards age limits. But even, you know, I sort of oppose it. Anyway, so that's a different subject for a different day. But the Tea Party was always very inchoate, what they actually wanted.
29:30They're just mad, right? And there was not a lot of ideological cohesion. So the closest thing you could come to is like, we want to cut the deficit. You know, we want to spend less money. But even that, you know, ultimately Trump takes it over. Trump spends more money than anybody. So even that, I remember there was always this famous sign that was like, get your government hands off my Medicare. And it was like, you know, that was kind of the vibe was just like, we feel like the country is changing and we're mad about it. And the bailouts were big. The bailouts, I mean, I don't know. Were they?
30:04Because I don't know that that was really core to the Tea Party concerns. I think it was much more—I think there was certainly a racial element to it with Barack Obama there. That was definitely part of it. But I think it was more this sense of the country is changing ways that we are uncomfortable with and we just want to hit the brakes. So in any case, there wasn't a cohesive ideological strain that was consistent from the Tea Party to Trump. other than just rage. And then Trump becomes this, I mean, it's a cult of personality. It genuinely is. And so then it just becomes about Trump and whatever Trump wants.
30:39So I think one of the learnings for the DSA has to be that there has to be some more consistent ideological content, which the DSA is more equipped for because they're certainly ideological. You have to give them that. They do a lot of thinking about what the ideological content is and what sort of programs they would like to see. So I think that's one of the things, the pitfalls to avoid, is it not just collapsing down into this, like, cult of personality of a person who can then, you know, and then you can justify whatever it is you want to do, whether it's complete, you know, graft for your family or, you know, whether it's a giant tax cut and deregulation for the tech oligarchs or whether it's doing tariffs in a way that is so insane that it just completely discredits the entire program of tariffs.
31:24Right.
31:24Emily Jashinsky:Yeah. And in this media environment, I think it actually is hard for political movements not to get sublimated to personality. Just that's the way that we've mediated our politics, exported them onto algorithmic platforms. It's really, really hard to avoid that happening. I don't know what that would look like from the DSA. Well, Zorin is kind of an interesting example because it's certainly his personal charisma is like off the charts and extremely, extremely, extremely talented, but also has immediately used that personal political capital to build out his movement. He is a DSA guy. That was when he was getting 1 % in the polls.
32:04He was a DSA guy. And the idea was we're going to do this totally long shot insane thing just to push forward the movement and the ideas and ideology. And so he immediately turns around and takes some big political risks that right now are paying off for him that are in the direction of it can't just be me. There has to be this broader movement. And, you know, it actually dovetails with the conversation that that we're having with Michael Lang about how he was able to transfer his coalition in to other candidates in a way that Barack Obama isn't able to in a way that Trump is not able to. Exactly.
32:42That's a good point. So that makes it, you know, you can tell that it's different because of the nature of that, where people say, OK, well, these people are on board with Zoran's program. And so he has made it, even though he is very important as a leader, he has also made it much more about how do we build this movement in New York City to start with but across the country.
33:03Emily Jashinsky:He really proves the AOC, the infamous or famous really AOC quote where she said, in a European system, Nancy Pelosi and I would not be in the same political party. Totally true. And actually, we're seeing that in the U.K. right now, the rise of the Greens, the rise of reform, totally undermining the institutional power of the two major parties there. And they have a totally different system, of course, as well. But what's interesting about that is it's about the coalition, too. So Zoran Mamdani brings in a coalition that is not just the Democratic Party coalition. Trump did something similar.
33:35Emily Jashinsky:He brought in a lot of Obama voters in the Rust Belt. And that doesn't translate to any other Republican so far. So the Zoran experiment then is to go to places like Colorado, California, and take that same coalition and build it up around Imalak-Kyros or someone else. And if that's successful, that is a total transformation and a takeover of the Democratic Party in a way that if Trump is gone, we still don't know what happens to the Republican coalition. The proof so far is that it doesn't remain the Trump coalition, where in the Rio Grande Valley. You're having Hispanic men vote in big numbers for Donald Trump.
34:11Emily Jashinsky:That doesn't seem to be translating to literally anybody else. Yeah. My last question for you is, Tucker, in the same moment when he said that thing about, like, I'm out, I'm done with the Republican Party, he then was like, yeah, but I like J.D. Vance. You know, he remained, and I think they talk, I think they're friendly. He remained open to supporting J.D. Vance. So I also wonder how serious he is about like, I'm done with the Republican Party and or, you know, whether ultimately is like, does this calculation is like, yeah, but I really hate the Democrats. So I got to stick with the Republicans.
34:42Emily Jashinsky:I have to say, I'm not often surprised by Tucker. I was surprised to see him talking about working on a third party. Yeah, because he's pessimistic and I think reasonably pessimistic. And that, you know, the third party talk is naive generally. And you heard Marjorie Taylor Greene try to frame it as consciously kind of naive, right? Like, we're aware this is really difficult. And that's what lends me to the position or brings me into the position that they're trying to really just influence the Republican Party. It's true there are a lot of independent voters up for grabs. And yes, that's on the table right now.
35:15Emily Jashinsky:That was true during the Tea Party era as well. But I just think it's I don't know. I was surprised to see that. I don't think he has any interest in running for anything. I think there are a lot of people who are chirping in his ear about running for things. I don't think he's he's interested in that at all. I think he's like less interested in politics. And so the idea that he would be working on a third party was genuinely surprising to me. I don't know what's going to happen with this. I'm sure Marjorie Taylor Greene is in talks with people. That might be something we should ask Roe to see if she's brought it up to him or if Massey's brought it up to him because Massey's going to be out of a job in a few months.
35:48Emily Jashinsky:So we'll see what they're actually working on. But I think our audience is as skeptical as we are that something significant would come of this. We will see. All right, let's talk about our declining empire here and the health struggles of several of our representatives. New reporting about the state of Mitch McConnell's health. Lest you think Mr. McConnell, oh, he's no longer Senate majority leader. He's no longer important. He actually is. He's appointed himself to be on the head of big committees. But new reporting he was, we can put this up on the screen, found, quote, unconscious and may have suffered a heart attack at his D.C.
36:25Emily Jashinsky:residence before being rushed to a local hospital last month, according to a district fire and EMS dispatch call made public Wednesday. The Post reports the June 14th call referenced medical personnel in an ALS or advanced life support ambulance being sent to the home shortly before 9 a.m. and mentioned there was, quote, CPR in progress for a cardiac arrest. Now, to be clear, right now, we don't have a comment from Mitch McConnell, who is the sitting U.S. senator for the state of Kentucky. He does helm important congressional committees. He has put himself in that position very intentionally, and we basically have no idea what is going on with his health.
37:08Emily Jashinsky:It actually reminded us of this report we did here exclusively at Breaking Points not long ago. We can put this next element up on the screen. Ryan and I reported back in December that we got a picture from Reagan Airport, Reagan National Airport, not long after the election, and Mitch McConnell was being pushed around in a wheelchair by his staffer. Basically, this was not getting reported on by anybody in the press. People in the press had seen this happening and had not reported on it, was our understanding at the time. Again, not a huge bombshell, exactly. It's obvious that Mitch McConnell is enfeebled, to say the very least.
37:47Emily Jashinsky:He's struggled to even make it through multiple press conferences. He's stumbled physically, literally, in public. But just come on, the people of Kentucky deserve better, no question about it. He is clinging to his power to wield it against the ascendant Trump movement, but particularly against anti-interventionalist strains in the Republican Party. He's deeply concerned about them. And you can bet he's staying in the Senate to tamp them down. That's basically everybody's understanding on Capitol Hill. He's come out and said as much multiple times. Now, it gets weirder because Republican Tom Keene announced, do you all remember the mystery that was happening with Tom Keene, this congressman, Republican congressman, who was just nowhere.
38:30Emily Jashinsky:He just disappeared. and his office was giving totally cryptic responses about where he was. They were saying things like, well, there are no cameras where Tom is. Again, insane, completely insane. Well, he announced in a floor speech yesterday that he was gone for months because of depression treatment. Let's roll the clip. Several months ago, due to health concerns, I entered the hospital for some testing. I did not believe that this would result in a long-term stay. I was given the diagnosis of depression. Now, when people hear the word depression, many people think simply means feeling sad.
39:08But depression is so much more than that. It is physical. It is emotional. And until you experience it yourself, it is difficult to fully understand how powerful this illness can be. The doctors recommended that I remain in the hospital to address my illness. They explained to me that this would be the fastest way to recovery. And to be honest, I was hesitant. I didn't think that I had time for it. I had responsibilities to my family. I had responsibilities to my constituents. I had responsibilities to this institution. And like many people, I believed that I could simply push through. But I agreed to follow my doctor's recommendations.
39:54Again, not believing that it would result in a long-term stay.
40:00Emily Jashinsky:This guy was going for 116 days, and again, with no transparency, with his staff giving ridiculous excuses, cryptic excuses. And Crystal, you pointed out this Lever News article. We can pop it up on the screen. It's headline, sick leave for me, not for thee, and criticizes Keene for, quote, taking a taxpayer-funded four-month absence from Congress to treat clinical depression, despite repeatedly voting against paid sick leave for workers while serving as a state senator in New Jersey. So again, he's in Congress now, but this is when, in 2018, a New Jersey law requiring employers to provide up to 40 hours of paid time off for workers dealing with an illness or medical condition came up, and he was opposed to it.
40:41Emily Jashinsky:So just a wonderful insight into our mighty dignified elected officials here in Washington, D.C., who insist on clinging to their power, even though they clearly, I mean, listen, I think he is totally correct about the severity of depression, the physical consequences of something that looks like a purely psychological condition. But he's totally right about that. It's real. Then get the hell out of Congress. Get the hell out of Congress. He won his primary while he was apparently being hospitalized for depression. And by the way, to your point about his candor, he's still not being candid because the story doesn't make any sense.
41:17You don't show up for tests and then they admit you for months for depression. Typically, you're admitted for, you are hospitalized for depression if you're a danger to yourself or others. So it seems to me, you know, he was either suicidal, there was something else going on here that he's still not being candid about. And so, look, it's a sign of, you know, the declining empire. With him, it's not an age thing, but with McConnell, certainly is. It's also a sign of democracy failure. Like, how is this guy getting reelected at a time when we don't even know when he's like just vanished and we don't know where he is or what he's doing or why he's gone or anything?
41:55And he still gets the nod for the Republican Party to go on and continue in Congress. It also shows you how little most of these people do. I mean, you know, did his constituents or the nation suffer because he wasn't there doing his job for four months. No, no one noticed other than, you know, to be like, well, that's weird that he's gone and isn't taking any of these votes. So, you know, some members are more consequential than others. The ones who just sort of check the boxes and do whatever the party leader tells them to do on the votes, they basically don't matter at all. It's their staff that are running the offices and doing anything that's like useful or consequential whatsoever.
42:34One person who was really not impressed with what Tom Keene had to say is Lauren Boebert, who really pulled no punches in her response, you know, a fellow Republican in her response to his announcement that he was out for four months with depression. Let's take a listen. I don't even think he used the word severe. He just said he was diagnosed with depression. I, for one, have been marked safe from depression today. And what do you mean by that? What does that mean? I'm here. I haven't seen those memes. Come on now. You're younger than me. I guess it's a Facebook thing. huh? It's more Facebook.
43:06Okay. So what's your take on it? I think it's embarrassing still, even more so. I mean, sure. Like take care of yourself, get healthy. Um, but who gets to take four months off of work because they're sad? Like that, that's not, I might not be sad. I mean, it's depressed. He's depressed. He's sad. And I, okay. Whatever the reasons may be, it's embarrassing. I don't care what party you're a part of. It's not okay. I mean, I think there's a dose of depression that comes with these pins that were given and so I mean if you can't build up a tolerance to it then maybe don't be here yeah but it's if his doctor's saying hey it's safe it's not safe for you to go to work I mean doesn't that come before this job did his doctor say that I heard his doctor say that it it is safe for him to return to work yeah I mean I assumed if he was there for that long he was there under doctor's orders maybe he should have been institutionalized like if it was if it were that bad i mean i i don't know like i i it's embarrassing do you think i'm not gonna just sit here and just dunk on tom keen or kane i think the speaker pronounced it kane i don't know i'm not gonna sit here and just dunk on him and his in his issue i do think it is an absolute disrespect to his voters that he has not shown up and had a reason like that if you're depressed okay come in the back door put your card in vote and leave like You don't have to talk to anybody.
44:32You can keep your head down low and vote and go home. I like that end part, too, where she's basically like, we don't really do that much. Like, you could just come in and vote and leave. It will take you 10 seconds. Just dip the card in. Just dip the card in, do your thing, and go, and your staff will handle everything else because they probably do that all the time anyway.
44:49Emily Jashinsky:By the way, this is why these ideas about remote voting for Congress are so stupid because you could have somebody literally lying about where they are or not saying where they are. They're in clinical depression treatment, maybe because they are suicidal and they're voting because their staff members are just keeping up the act for them and like finding ways to just vote whether they're there or not. So I think this is a good lesson as Congress moves closer and closer to that. There's a big push for that right now, by the way. Worth noting also, just as I was saying, Mitch McConnell is trying to retain his power.
45:21Emily Jashinsky:He is at the top of the rules committee. Wow. He is in charge of the Senate Appropriation Committee subcommittee for defense. The subcommittee for defense right now, he said it himself in an interview with the Financial Times, quote, that's where the real money is. And he's really referencing Ukraine, but also probably Israel as well. So here he is clinging to power despite and not being transparent about it. Again, that's another part of this. His office hasn't said if any of this happened. This is the New York Post gleaning it from, and I think Punchbowl got it from medical or from EMS records.
45:54Emily Jashinsky:released in Washington, D.C. because people suspected something was going on. I mean, he's fallen on camera multiple times, broke his ribs, right? Had a concussion because of a fall, froze on camera multiple times. Disgraceful. And now at this time, that's years ago that that happened. And this man is still serving as a United States senator. And then on the Tom Keen point, like I think Lauren Boebert, when she's like, who gets to take four months off from their job? I think that's exactly the question that many Americans are going to be asking themselves, especially since he's a hypocrite on the issue.
46:25It'd be one thing if he's a champion of universal health care and mental health wellness and pay time off, but he is none of those things. He is the opposite of that. And so it is hard for me to think of any other job where you could just casually disappear. Well, Sagar does it. For four months outside of Sagar. I mean, I guess if you own the business, I guess you get to do what you want. We don't know where Sagar is. He could be Fetterman. There are no cameras where Sagar is, Emily. That's actually probably true.
46:56Emily Jashinsky:We do know where Sagar is, to an extent. I could probably guess. I love your consistent, like, desire to dunk on Sagar when he's not here. I mean, it's the only best. It's one of the best things about you, Al. I've known Sagar for long enough that I get a pass on this. Oh, yeah. I've known him since he was a different Sagar, a younger, more naive Sagar. Okay. And vice versa. Less jaded, hardened by the world. In any case, I think most people will be looking at this and be like, if I took four months off, I would be fired. That's the way that would work. It's insane. And then I'd be more depressed.
47:34You know? I would be more depressed. Mike Johnson. If this isn't the job for you, there are other jobs. Go do, like, you are clearly miserable and you are not doing the job. So go do something else. Please. I don't know. The whole thing is just too wild.
47:50Emily Jashinsky:Mike Johnson has like tepidly criticized him. Oh, did he? Oh, yeah. He was like, well, I would have been more transparent about it. And it's like, all right, so we can all come together and tepidly criticize it. It just keeps happening. This the former Senate majority leader is doing it right now. And is anybody trying to push him out? But and I do really I want to come back to the point about it says something about our system that this can happen. And there's no political electoral consequence. Cain might lose his seat. Is it a close? Yeah. Yeah, Republicans are partially—I bet it's partially why Johnson feels comfortable criticizing him, because I think it was one of those things where people didn't know if he was going to come back in time for the primary to be okay.
48:27Emily Jashinsky:So it was hard to, like, field a replacement because people didn't know if he was going to step back in or whatever. And this time around, it's a swing district, so he might actually lose the seat for Republicans, obviously when they're clinging to every single seat they possibly can. Yeah, but I'm just thinking of, like, Dianne Feinstein, you know, where there was a progressive challenge to her, and it was beat back by Obama and Nancy Pelosi. And, you know, they don't have to do town halls. They don't have, like, it's much easier now than ever, I think, even as cameras are everywhere, for them to hide their true condition from the public.
49:03And so it, you know, falls to people like Ken Klippenstein to be like a total asshole and be like, why is Susan Collins shaking like that? You know, because people deserve to, no, because so much has been hidden in the past. So, yeah. No, I think that's true. to Ken for being the asshole for the people. An asshole for the people. If Ken runs, that's his slogan. And it might work. An asshole for the people. I mean, that was kind of the central promise to Trump, right? Yes. Yes. That's true, actually. It just ended up being an asshole for his own sake.
49:32Emily Jashinsky:Crystal, you have just brought the show full circle in such a beautiful, poetic way. That was very well done. I'm glad you enjoyed that. Oh, that was perfect. It's been such a pleasure to be here this week and we have a Friday show. Some people might be taking the Friday before the 250th off. Not us. Not us. We have to cover all of all of the news for the Patriots that people need to know. We will be there and Emily doing every single show this week. So thank you, my friend. I'm going to steal the I Heart Radio trophy and it's off camera right now. I'm going to steal it. I'm going to put it behind me.
50:06You deserve it. And not only are you doing that, you're doing your own show to like hardest working women in show business here.
50:11Emily Jashinsky:You got I do what you gotta do. You know, you can't be caning. You can't be doing, you can't be pulling a Tom Kane. There are always cameras where Emily is. Honestly, it's true about all of us. Shout out to Flock. We are always all on camera. I bet they've got some footage of Tom Kane. Shout out to Palantir. There are always cameras where all of us are. Oh, goodness. Anyway, thank you guys for watching. Sign up for the newsletter, breakingpoints.com. If you're having trouble, support at supercast.com. And we'll see you tomorrow. Should be a good one.
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From the publisher
Krystal and Emily discuss DSA party takeover, Tucker MTG third party, McConnell found unconscious.
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