7/21/26: Krystal HEATED Debate w Top Dem On Israel, DSA

23:55That may change. I don't see that happening, which is why I gave you the answer I gave. But again, this notion that somehow there's a liberal option on the table, and how could we possibly support the illiberal state of Israel? What's going to come in there, okay, that's going to be liberal? Now, I'm with you on the taxpayer dollar piece. You mentioned Rahm Emanuel's speech. You said you associate yourself. If memory serves, he supports banking sanctions on Israel. You know, we sanctioned our ally at the time, South Africa. You support that? I am one of the original co-sponsors of the, what is it?

24:32It's the West Bank Violence Prevention Act, which sanctions Israel for what they're doing in the West Bank. Yes, absolutely. It's wrong. It shouldn't be done. Yes, we should sanction them, and we should specifically sanction Smotrich and Ben Gavir, who are advocating so much of this. Yes. Summer is here, which means we all want to look and feel our best. A GLP-1 may be right for you. Visit orderlymeds.com to learn more about which GLP-1 you could be eligible for. Getting started is fast, easy, and happens virtually through telemedicine from licensed professionals. Check it out for yourself. Go to orderlymeds.com slash podcast.

25:06That's orderlymeds.com slash podcast. Taking care of yourself feels great. Comp added medications are not FDA approved. Deligibility required and determined by a licensed provider. Individual results may vary. See website for details. If your best finance people are doing expense reports, chasing receipts, or spending time on month-end close, it's time to get Brex AF, a Gentic finance that eliminates that work before it starts. Learn more at brex.com slash AF. My name is Arnold Bogarty, and prior to me, I enrolled in Rasmussen to become a nurse. I spent 16 years in the military, 12 in Special Forces, as an Army Green Beret, and I was recommended to Rasmussen by a former student.

25:45She said she loved the culture. It was a family atmosphere. I went to visit the campus. The facilities were amazing. I knew before I left that that was the school that I was going to attend. Rasmussen University. Are you ready to be your own hero online and on campus? Learn more at rasmussen.edu. Let's move on to some of these broader disagreements. And I guess a good transition into that is how much do you think the question of the relationship with Israel-Palestine is serving as a litmus test in Democratic primaries? From my perspective, it's been very important because it serves as a proxy for kind of a host of other issues and concerns that the Democratic base has with the Democratic Party at this point.

26:28But I'm curious your perspective on how important that has become and the reason why you think it has become an important issue. It's becoming more important. It's not the most important issue. The most important issue, It's not even close to the most important issue in these primaries. The most important issue that is driving the anti-establishment feelings in the primaries is two things. Number one, the belief that we have not effectively fought Trump. OK, when you look at what really drives these people, yes, Israel is part of it. But it's also going after you were part of the establishment.

27:01How come you didn't beat Trump? Now, I have a complaint here, and that is that a lot of the policies of the DSA and the left, open borders, defund the police, the idea that you can't possibly spend enough government money, identity politics, a lot of those things are what gave Trump his power. And part of the reason those of us in the establishment struggle to beat Donald Trump is we were having to defend policies like open borders. OK, and Trump walked right into that. All right. So the notion that there is is just the establishment that led to Trump losing, I think, is it is a misplaced fact.

27:41Can we pause there for one second? Go ahead. Get to your critique. So, you know, and so and I certainly but I also think that the establishment Democratic Party, I mean, the whole Joe Biden thing. nominating, you know, even thinking about nominating Joe Biden. Because of his age? Well, because he was, he couldn't, I don't care how old he is, he just couldn't speak. Okay. He couldn't communicate clearly. Yeah. You know, whether that was because he was old or because he couldn't communicate clearly, you know, it had the same effect. And then the second big issue is income inequality. It is absolutely true that whoever has been governing for the last 20 or 30 years hasn't done enough to create opportunities for enough people.

28:20Those two issues, I think, really drove the feeling of let's try something different. Now, the question is whether or not the DSA agenda of, you know, is actually going to achieve either of those objectives. Is that what's going to help us defeat Trump and MAGA? Is that what is going to build a more broad-based economic thing? But this is where I am very sympathetic with the DSA. I'm an economic populist. All right. I think we should rewrite the tax code to actually tax rich people. I've been working with a woman, Ray Maddoff. She's a professor up at Boston College who wrote a book about how we built our tax code so that investors don't ever pay taxes.

28:57Let's change that. OK, I'm very pro-union. Stock buybacks. Why do we have stock buybacks? They didn't exist prior to 1982. So obviously, corporations can exist without them. On that agenda, I'm there. Part of the problem I have with the broader agenda is you can't have free stuff for everybody all the time. A, and another message that the left gave us in the last 10 years was that deficits and debts don't matter. Are you familiar with modern monetary theory? Of course. Yeah. It's absurd. The idea that we just spend as much money as possible is not a problem. Now, I want to tax people. I want a better social welfare state.

29:34But to argue that we can have a better social welfare state because the debt doesn't matter undermines the credibility of that argument. of the U.S. dollar and potential risking of the U.S. dollar as a reserve currency. It's something we have to think more about now. But here's the understatement of the morning, by the way. But let me drill down a little bit on a few things you've said. So you've argued both from most of your argument against the DSA thus far, I think you could characterize as an electability argument. You know, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. It's bad policy. OK, so I don't I don't think having unlimited immigration is sustainable.

30:10I don't think. getting rid of the criminal justice system is a smart way to govern. It's not just electability. So here's a question I have for you. So back in 2018, you worked together with Pramila Jayapal on a bill to abolish ICE, which is a key demand. Yeah, I worked with her on a, here's what the bill did. Okay. It's a slogan. We have an article here from the Seattle Times, your local paper, U.S. Reps Pramila Jayapal and Adam Smith aim to abolish ICE, restructure immigration enforcement. Exactly. You were one of the Democrats, actually, who was in office when you voted for DHS. Can I tell you what this actually does so we can have an intelligent conversation?

30:46Sure, of course. Well, number one, do you still support this? Let me tell you what it does. Okay, but do you still support it? That doesn't help anything because what is this? Can I? Yeah, of course. But first, do you still support it? Then you can explain more in detail what it is. Let me tell you what it is. Okay. Okay. Yes. When we created the Department of Homeland Security, we took immigration enforcement away from the Justice Department and we put it into DHS and created ICE. Correct. What this does is it puts immigration enforcement back at the Justice Department. And gets rid of ICE. Right.

31:22Well, it gets rid of... No, but... That's my position, too. But here's... We're on the same page here. Yes. But it doesn't get rid of immigration enforcement. OK, so OK, so let me hold you to account again. Yeah. Tell me which candidates specifically, not a policy paper that they're theoretically says, which candidates have said we should get rid of all immigration. I forget the name that the woman who beat Andrew Espelot absolutely. Yeah. So you have one candidate. Right. Who said that? Do you think that I also think that her views should be associated with everyone on the under the DSA label?

32:00or do you think that each person should be evaluated individually? I have had many, many conversations with many, many immigration advocates, and I always ask them. And look, I'm in favor of a robust immigration system. I think what immigration enforcement is doing right now is an absolute crime, okay? And it should be limited. I think we should go back to the Justice Department. That's what I said. And you still support the bill that you put forward. Oh, absolutely. So you support abolishing ICE. Abolishing ICE is just a rhetorical— Yes, you don't like the label, but you support it, right? But the problem is it means different things to different people.

32:30OK, if you're talking about, no, let's go back to a Justice Department enforcement mechanism. That's fine. But there are a lot more people who support eliminating enforcement. And let me tell you the question I always let me tell you. You've given me one. Let me tell you. Let me tell you the question I always ask and the answer I always get from dozens of different immigration advocacy groups. I said, look, in order for this work, you have to be able to tell me who would you deport and who wouldn't you let into the country. And they literally never answered that. Are they in Congress? They are advocacy groups.

33:05Here's my other question for you is, you know, do you want to take the most extreme positions that you can find in the DSA platform or that? Let me ask you this. Let me finish my question, please. that one candidate, Daria Lisa Chevalier, who I agree has positions that I think are, can legitimately be characterized as radical, right? You want to take those positions and you want to tar an entire group of candidates with them. Well, let me ask you this. Hold on. Aren't you effectively doing the work of the Republicans there? By saying all these people, they're all so crazy. They don't want any enforcement, they don't want any police, they don't want any borders, let me consolidate for you.

33:42Do you think, all right, you've done your thing, let me do my thing. They could easily characterize your abolish position as just as crazy and radical as Dario Leeson. But my, I can't because the Justice Department is going for us. Let me ask you this. Joe Biden, his policy. OK, so not just one person in a platform, whatever. Do you think his policy was too lax in terms of border security? I don't. But I acknowledge that politically that helped fuel the rise of the return of Donald Trump. So let me say that is something. But hold on a second. Which wing of the Democratic Party does Joe Biden come from?

34:20He doesn't come from the DSA left, does he? He comes from the establishment. And so to go back to one of the original comes from, how did he go? Well, he funded a genocide. So he governed in a lot of right wing ways. But to go back to your original point about electability, I think it's very hard. I never made a point about you said that you thought that these positions, if you listen to your original answer, You said you thought these positions for the DSA were part of what brought Donald Trump. Fair enough. Fair enough. Fair enough. Yes. But there's also policy concerns. OK. But on the electability point, how can you argue that your camp within the Democratic Party has a lot of credence when it comes to electability?

34:57When I argue the exact opposite. I argue the exact opposite. I'm with you. When Hillary Clinton loses to Trump, Biden wins by adopting some left wing views, then loses to Trump. It was the establishment that propped him up, that force war and sort of a primary. So how could it be the fault of the left that we're losing? There's three things. OK. I always say that the fault of the Democratic Party is a tragedy in three acts. OK. Number one, we didn't do enough on the economic issues. And I think that Obama and Clinton get way too much of the blame for that. I think they really tried to get after broader economic issues.

35:33certainly the Affordable Care Act, a whole lot of other provisions that were put in there. But we didn't do enough on economic inequality. Number two, the left came along and took some positions that weakened us. I'm not blaming one group. Everyone's like, well, you're blaming us. What about them? It's like there can be collective responsibility here, OK? It's not an either or choice. Yes, we didn't do enough on economics. And then some of the positions of the left, and there were a lot of people running around. And when people say abolish ICE, do they mean abolish enforcement or do they mean change enforcement?

36:04OK, and that's where you get into that difficult issue. We've had criminal justice problems, you know, that defund the police movement did not help us in any way. And it was a thing. And it's, oh, no, we never did that. OK. And then three, Joe Biden. Yeah. Those three things are what led to us. And you and every time and I want to bring them all in. But people say, well, if you blame the left, you're just being a Republican. Well, can't we learn as we go? Well, my problem is not with your I have my own critiques of the left. Right. I think that not. I actually think the identity politics thing came out of the Hillary Clinton campaign and was a way for the establishment to beat back the rise of the Bernie Sanders left.

36:42No doubt the left embraced it. I have been a critic of, quote unquote, woke, although I hate the word at this point. I don't know politics. That's my my position. I'm a class first leftist. So I have my own critiques here. I'm not saying you can't. I'm saying when you caricature an entire wing of a party at this point. Aren't you caricature the entire wing of the centrist and saying that we're all like, I'm not caricature. I'm not trying to say you have the same views as John Fetterman. I don't think that you do, or Josh Gottheimer for that matter. And I'm not saying they all have the same views either.

37:13You are trying to take the views of, let's say, Dari Liza and the DSA platform and saying this is what the entire DSA coalition stands for. I'm just saying it's an issue and it's a challenge. Let me get you to—so I think the most prominent example of socialist governance in the U.S. right now is Zoran Mamdani in New York City. He got asked a question that's very relevant to this conversation about, you know, what about people who are concerned about socialism or concerned about democratic socialism? Let me get you to respond to what he had to say this is E2. For all of the fear-mongering around democratic socialism, the best response is to show what it actually means.

37:48And what we've shown over the last six months is exactly that. We've shown that a city with a democratic socialist vision is one that paves more than 170 ,000 potholes, 50 ,000 more than the prior administration by this point. It's a city that has delivered the lowest recorded number of shootings and shooting victims and murders in New York City's history. It is a city that is on a pathway to universal child care, saving thousands of parents more than$20 ,000 a year. And it's a city that is doing all of these things while fighting for the people who are often left behind. Workers who we've secured more than$10 million for.

38:28Tenants more than$64 million. These are all indicators of what is so scary to a right wing that has built its entire power and framework on the idea of debating who should be left behind. So is Zoran's version of socialism a version that you could get on board with since he's really focused on the affordability pieces that you do? I'm encouraged by what he's doing. And I think that form of trying to get things done, that's the other problem. So much of the left, and certainly we experienced this in Seattle, became an academic exercise. They were spending all day long talking about the history of racism as opposed to going out in the community and saying, these are people who have been discriminated against.

39:13Let's get them access to capital so they can start businesses. Let's get them access to capital so they can get homes. Let's do a job. Let's do workforce development so they can get jobs. It became an academic exercise about the history of the U.S. and about, you know, are we, you know, just an irreversibly bigoted racist? And that's all interesting. What are we doing to govern effectively? And actually, everything that Mamdani said right there, I'm encouraged. If you govern and focus on getting things done, so-called sewer socialism from back in the day, you know, when you had mayors who were socialists because they were going to go out and work, that's great.

39:52As an academic exercise, will you want to explain to me the history of oppression when you say things to me like, well, that person can make that argument because of the power dynamic? And we operate in this weird intellectual world that's got nothing to do with practical problem solving and logic. OK, that's where I have a problem. You know, Michelle Wu up in Boston also on the left governing really well. There are other folks who haven't governed so well because they got trapped in this sort of ideological thing where the whole focus was on oppressed and oppression as opposed to actually governing well.

40:29So, yes, I am encouraged by what I've seen in the last, what are we now, six, seven months in Mondani's term. You know, I'm a working class blue collar kid. I'm in favor of economic populism. And if socialism can work on that level. Now, I think you also have to recognize that private industry has to be part of it. OK, we have to have businesses that grow. But yeah, this, you know, I had someone I was up in New York a month or so ago and someone said, you know, the problem is we took the guardrails off capitalism. And over the course of the last 50 years, that's what we did. We took the guardrails off capitalism.

41:01So let's put those guardrails back on. And if you want to call it socialism, whatever you want to call it, I don't care. But let's govern more effectively. So let me ask you then, Josh Gottheimer said, if you're a socialist, you're not a Democrat. Sounds like you don't agree with that. No, I mean, but again, the problem with this is the whole abolish ICE thing. You throw a term out that means 15 different things to 15 different people. And then you're like, do you support this? It's like, well, which one of the 15 versions are you talking about? I'm not asking you to support it. But he and others have said, basically, we don't want these people in the party.

41:32We don't want to share the tent with them. And it doesn't sound like you're in that place. I am not. Now, I think we ought to be able to have a conversation about the issues. I was sick to death, and you did it to me again, when I was trying to say, hey, look, on immigration, you know, we need to show that we are in favor of enforcement. Well, you're just giving me Republican talking points. I didn't say that. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no. You said something about me, like, sound like a Republican earlier. No, no, no. What I said is that— Why can't we have a conversation about it? What I said is that when you take the most radical position of one person or from a policy platform and you paint with a broad brush, you're handing Republicans a talking point.

42:08Oh, this is what these people are. And what I'm saying is that you could easily be put into that camp, given some of your positions that you continue to hold. For example, whether you want to call it dismantling ICE or reorganizing ICE under a different agency or whatever you want to call it, you support getting rid of ICE. It's not actually a joke. It's how are you going to enforce it? What sort of enforcement are you going to do? And if going back to the Justice Department makes sense to me. And, you know, ICE would no longer exist, but you'd still have immigration enforcement. But this is the biggest.

42:36Could you actually. I am curious your view. because the counter to that would be, well, if you're just going to do enforcement, why not just keep ICE and reform ICE, right? There's some group of people would say, oh, it's too radical to get rid of ICE. We need to just reform it, vet better, et cetera. Why do you think that it needs to be taken apart? Because I obviously agree with you. What Trump has done with it, I think, just puts it in a category. And I don't know. I mean, theoretically, within the Department of Homeland Security, I suppose you could have immigration enforcement that made sense.

43:07But I think at this point, we need a clean break. And look, the biggest thing that I want in all of this is the ability to have a conversation. All right. And this is where this is my biggest problem with the left. I have been unable to hold a town hall meeting for a year because a bunch of leftists show up and scream at me and don't let anyone else speak. We had a hearing in the University of Washington on whether or not to divest from Israel. After all the protests, we're going to have a hearing. So the first three people got up and testified in favor of divesting. Fourth person got up and testified against divesting.

43:38Two sentences in, shouted down, screamed at, wouldn't stop. The meeting, the meeting, you talk about illiberal, okay, having people stand out in front of my house, you know, screaming death threats at me and threatening my wife, okay? And the left, oh, well, of course we don't spoil. We're peace activists. We would never do something like that, okay? How about you just say, no, They did it. It's wrong. We're against it. We are going to be liberal. We're going to stand up for stuff. I think that whole thing has created a major problem as well. And that's what I try to have these conversations and people, wow, you're just a Trump supporter.

44:14We have to be able to have an intellectual discussion. I guess I'll, you know, positive thing. I think Mondani has done that. I don't agree with that he's doing, but he's having legitimate, thoughtful conversations instead of screaming matches over who can threaten the loudest. Let me just last question, because I know you have a briefing that you need to get to as a result of your vote on the Massey Amendment, which would block aid to Israel. AIPAC said basically we're done with this guy, pulled your name off their fundraising website. You're a person who, you know, you are in a very important position for them.

44:43Ranking member. They've given you a lot of money in the past. Have you spoken to them about that decision? Yes. And would you in the future? Do you want their money back? Because I know Pat Ryan was in a similar situation. He said, I'm done with them. I don't want their money. You know, I think I don't think that we should. This is another thing that I've ever bought into. Well, I'm not my question. He said, you know, I don't think we should be in league with this right wing foreign government and an organization that supports it. Do you share that view or you would be open to taking their money again?

45:13I'd be open. I mean, I given my position, I don't think that's going to happen. It's always been my position. I vote, take positions and people decide whether or not to donate. And that's another thing that I don't think the left should take no money from corporations. Corporations are evil, they're awful, they're terrible. I don't think that's in keeping with how the country is going to run. We need businesses. And look, I've had many donors. I mean, AIPAC is not a business. Well, no, but it goes beyond AIPAC. You know, we're not supposed to take any money from any people. How can you put? I think that position divides us and not necessarily.

45:49As far as AIPAC is concerned, you understand that they count anyone who's ever donated to AIPAC. I have a lot of friends that did supporters going back decades who give money to APAC and give money to me. OK, I'm not going to. You have to take an APAC contribution. Oh, yeah. That's not a mischaracter. No, no, no, no. Absolutely. But the whole broad thing of, you know, I. Well, they make it in fairness because I think it's a very difficult thing to track. They intentionally, you know, they create other groups. Intentionally puff. Yeah. And they try to hide some of this money now that it's become a toxic name.

46:21But final real last question for you. Abdul Asayyad running in Michigan against Representative Haley Stevens. APAC and affiliated groups have spent$30 million in that race to support Haley Stevens. You're someone who is concerned about democracy. I mean, do you see that as a crisis for democracy when you have tens of millions of dollars of outside money, whether it's APAC or Big Pharma or whoever, coming in and backing one candidate? Is that something that should be banned to Democratic primaries? I support McCain-Feingold, and I think Citizens United was one of the two or three worst Supreme Court decisions ever made.

46:54You ought to be able to limit IEs. And I don't care if it's coming from business, if it's coming from AIPAC, if it's coming from labor, if it's coming— Because left groups have big IEs, too. I mean, everyone acts like they don't have any money. I remember the— It's no competition for what's coming in on the other side. But just to put a fine point on it, the Democratic Party could itself— itself, you know, it's hard to change the Constitution and the Supreme Court, etc. The Democratic Party itself could ban that type of spending. No, they can't. In primaries. They can. No, they can't. Of course they can.

47:23No, no, hold on, hold on, hold on. The DNC can set their own rules for how their own primaries are run. They can't block an IE. Yes, they can. No, they can't. What are you talking about? They can set their own rules for what type of money can be spent in these campaigns. Is that something you would support? I would, but you don't believe that it's possible. No, the IEs are independent. They can do what they want to do. The Democratic Party can't come. You think the Democratic Party could just come in and tell AIPAC not to spend money? Yeah, I think they could run their own primaries the way they want to run their primaries and set the rules for that.

47:54They absolutely could. That's something that was a part of the debate for the last DNC chair. I'll have to look into it. Take a look at it. Even if the DNC says that. In theory, you would support it. I would support anything that bans IEs, but IEs are by their nature independent. And you think it's a problem for democracy? Yes. Where the money is coming from? Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Congressman, spirited exchange. I appreciate it. Genuinely. Thank you for coming in. Happy to do it.

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