7/31/25: Trump Goes Nuclear On Stock Ban, Big Pharma Ousts Top MAHA Official, Sam Altman Warning On ChatGPT, New Corbyn Party, Mearsheimer Says Gaza Is Genocide

24:46You know, Trump was never more correct when he said, I get to decide what is MAGA, what is America first. And Laura Loomer, we're going to talk about her in a little bit, is probably the person who understood most what that actually meant. And the bottom line is it means total and complete fealty and loyalty to him and his whims and what he wants at every turn. So even for someone like Josh Hawley, who, again, was a loyal soldier, you know, let the record show how much he has been there for Trump. Even for someone like him, you do one thing that goes against what he wants, and that's it. You're being put on blast on True Social.

25:22It's ridiculous. Let's go and put the next part up on the screen. This is a story that just highlights kind of more of what we're talking about. This is from our friend Saurabh Amari. And the title is The Antitrust War Inside of MAGA, Powerful Lobbyists Are Battling Populist Reformers. And what they talk about here specifically is that one of the people who, by the way, we celebrated here on the show, was Gail Slater, who was named as the antitrust chair over at the Assistant Attorney General's Office for Antitrust Enforcement. Now, what they say here specifically, according to a lot of his reporting, is that there was literally a boozy backroom deal, quote, not a figure of speech.

25:56It took place who described a meeting between government officials and lobbyists at one of Washington's, quote, private city clubs over cocktails. And that during this, lobbyists basically went after these former DOJ officials and others to get them both fired and to allow a merger to go through, which was being blocked by these antitrust enforcers. I mean I would not sit here and claim antitrust was some key provision of MAGA or any of that. But at an intellectual level, it was one embrace. Gail Slater used to work for J.D. Vance. This is somebody who Josh Hawley, who we just talked about, J.D.

26:33Many other members of the newer, younger right were very skeptical of big tech, very skeptical of big business and hired many of these people to operationalize that. But what you see inside of the story is basically using these lobbyists in these deals to then get people fired from the Department of Justice who are working on these to allow these types of transactions to go through. It's just totally ridiculous. Yeah. No, absolutely. And Raheem Kassam, who was a Bannon war room guy and potentially has some information. It still is bad, by the way. It's not like some shit lib, OK? Just so people understand.

27:08Oh, yeah. Oh, no. I want people to know. Definitely not. Yeah. But he says about all of this, he says, what if I told you this was happening because greedy fake MAGA world grifters and lobbyists are upset that the antitrust team was actually doing their job instead of taking cash from big corporates to turn a blind eye to monopolistic practices. And so, you know, it reminds me, Sagar, of early on when you had Zuckerberg and you had Andreessen going on the Rogan podcast and using their appearances to knife the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which is something that should be, you know, favored by anyone who would dare call themselves a populist.

27:46And they framed it as like, oh, they have this ideological war against conservatives, which was just totally, I mean, it was the opposite of the truth. They literally, you know, were portraying this completely backwards. But, you know, that was a signal of how much power these corporate forces and, you know, big tech has been fully, fully brought into this administration, how much power those forces were ultimately. And this settlement I'm talking about specifically is Hewlett Packard. And it's kind of complicated. It is technology related, though, so people should understand. But basically the background of it is that they had come to a settlement.

28:19The settlement was continued under the Trump administration, started by the Biden administration. That settlement went forward. It was near finalization. Did not meet approval, actually, by Gail Slater. Eventually, Pam Bondi and her people come over the top rope, and they're like, no, this thing is going through. It's going to happen. And then what happens from there is that two of her top deputies are fired on Monday. So that's the background of how this all works. And our friend Matt Stoller actually really wrote about this. A8, please, up on the screen. And what he says is, quote, like the rest of the government under Trump, the antitrust division just got turned into a pay-to-play operation.

28:55Four senators are trying to expose what's happening to antitrust and our society. But really what he's trying to point out here is the ability for a lot of these people to weaponize, like, quote, MAGA and lobbying inside of the division where not only are they getting what they want, but they're actively targeting and getting fired. You know, many people who are working on this in good faith. Like as Stoller says, quote, the stakes here are immense. I guess what I'd call Trump has done the bizarro new deal because it's a reordering of our constitutional system. And he specifically talks about the ability for these like corrupt lobbyists and other people to put pressure onto Trump or at least Trump administration officials to allow this stuff to go through.

29:37So again, I know this can sound nitty-gritty. But in the story that we're about to get to on Maha involving my friend, Dr. Vinay Prasad, it's really important because this stuff has real ability to get people fired who are actual reformers who did make it into the government. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it also exposes, you know, why Wall Street was happy to have Trump back and continues to be happy with Trump in spite of all the like tariff insanity on again, off again, et cetera, is because they feel like, well, if you have the money to get it to the table, you're going to get what you want. And that's what happened here.

30:07That's exactly what happened in this instance. These, you know, lobbyists had these cozy relationships with various DOJ employees, and they were able to make what Saurabh describes as boozy backroom deals to ultimately get their way. And Stoller writes in part, it's a really good piece. I recommend people read it because it talks, it sort of uses this situation as the peg, but then takes a broader view of overall what's happening within the Trump second administration. administration. And he says, you know, a lot of what this is based on is sort of like pyramid scheme mentality or con artist mentality.

30:42He says the architecture of scam discourse is to tell a populist story based on distrust in the establishment while offering a get rich quick moral solution. Criticisms are forms of negative thinking, must be avoided. Any critique of particular leaders represents a personal failure on the part of the person making the negative observation. Meanwhile, the insiders running the pyramid scheme operate like a mafia instead of dons negotiating with one another about how to divide the wealth they've extracted. All public narratives are tools to extract. Everyone is ruthless and expendable. And the notion of good faith does not exist.

31:12That doesn't mean, oddly enough, these people are all bad, just that when they do useful things, it's merely ancillary. And he says all of this Bizarro New Deal is shifting us towards a far more hierarchical corporatized state, aka an oligarchy. So not to say things were great before, but the level of explicit pay to play is on a level, you know, it's of a different character than what we've experienced in the past. And again, that's why Wall Street is happy with this, because if you have the money to get the seat at the table, you are by and large going to get what you want, including people fired.

31:47On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it.

32:27It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society. the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

33:05I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. So obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, Nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place.

33:39Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped. and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming.

34:27They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. That is a perfect transition to our next story on Dr. Vinay Prasad. Many of you might remember Dr. Prasad. He's been on the show a couple of times. Somebody whose research and analysis I relied on a lot during the COVID pandemic. He, just in case anybody doesn't remember, was literally a credentialed doctor with a background in epidemiology, a longtime career of publishing reports specifically about how big pharma runs drug trials through.

35:14He was appointed at the FDA as the head of biologics, which is genuinely one of the most important deaths at the FDA, responsible for the approval of a lot of new experimental drugs, vaccines, and more. A massive portfolio for which he was obviously highly credentialed as well as somebody who had a lot of Maha sympathies and was really kind of a Maha figure in his own right, going from a doctor, starting his own YouTube channel, becoming a really reliable source for a lot of people who have those sympathies. Well, guys, he was just summarily fired from the FDA. Let's go and put this up there on the screen.

35:49And I'm going to explain this story. So, and the headline here, by the way, is not entirely accurate. It says, Vene Prasad, a powerful FDA official, departs after controversy over rare disease drugs. So this was top deputy to Marty McRae. This is going to be a little complicated. So everybody stick with me. And I'm relying on the analysis of actual doctors to break some of this story down. So here's really what it all gets to. is that there was this new experimental drug, all right? This new experimental drug from a company, Sarepta. Now, what happened is that they got accelerated approval for a new experimental drug on the promise they would complete phase four trials.

36:30The phase four trials never got done. In that time period, it was linked to at least two deaths. Its approval and expedition was then paused, paused, not even stopped, paused by Vinay Prasad under his new desk over at the FDA. As in, he's doing his job. You have a biotech company here, which has made some$2 billion or whatever on the back of this drug, holding all these press conferences about accelerated approval for this new experiment that has to do with gene therapy. Well, it ends up being linked there to a couple of deaths. Now, it's not entirely clear that it caused or anything, but it obviously should bear some scrutiny.

37:11That's exactly what you would want your top FDA official who's in charge of approving, disapproving, or whatever new experimental drugs to do. OK, there's a lot of powerful interests. We don't care. It's linked to some debts. Let's figure out what's going on. What happens is that that company and others start a public lobbying campaign against Vinay Prasad. Rick Santorum, who everyone will remember, who's the former, I think he's a governor of, I forget exactly where he's from. It's been a while since he was from. Senator from Pennsylvania. That's right. Senator from Pennsylvania. He ran for president.

37:42He ran for president in 08. Famously what? He wins the Iowa caucuses as religious. Position himself as a populist, by the way. Right. So Rick Santorum and Laura Loomer start a campaign against Prasad. Now, I guess credit to Santorum, his campaign against Prasad was based entirely on the drug. Laura Loomer, however, has started attacking Vinay Prasad as, quote, a leftist saboteur. Let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen just for an example. She says, we have a crisis at the FDA. A wolf in sheep's clothing is sabotaging. Make America healthy again. Dr. Prasad, a self-proclaimed progressive liberal and Bernie Sanders fanboy, wormed his way into a top FDA role as the director for Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research.

38:24She made me like him more. After he was appointed by RFK Jr. There is no bureaucratic misstep. It's a catastrophic vetting failure, threatens to derail America first healthcare revolution. Assad's anti-Trump rhetoric, radical left-wing ideology, and deliberate actions to obstruct our president's deregulatory mission prove he's dangerous misfit. The time to act is now. He must be removed before he destroys Trump's vision for a healthier America. Now, here's the thing. Let's put B3 up there on the screen. This is from Anish Koka, a friend of mine. And here's what he points out. He says, their stock was cut into half, trading over 60, on news that Vinay was hired as the director, which oversees the vaccines and gene therapy.

39:07Now that the person is likely to be fired for his controversial decisions. So it's going to regain some of their valuation. And Biostox now points out on Sarepta, a welcome FDA reversal, after our editorial, the agency has relented to allow the new treatment for this disease. But the point behind all of this is that he was fired. And let's keep this in mind. He technically resigned, but this went all the way up to Trump himself. RFK Jr. and Dr. Marty Macri, the head of the FDA, went to bat for Vinay and were like, no, he's legit and all of this. And Trump was like, no, quote, he said bad things against me or whatever.

39:45He's got to go. And so he basically, after just three months in office, is forced to resign. Let's just, again, really ruminate on this, is that you have a doctor. Okay, his crime is what? Being a liberal a couple of years ago? Who's RFK Jr.? Am I, you know, taking crazy pills here? Yeah. You have a person who genuinely was one of the most credentialed voices speaking out against COVID mask hysteria, vaccine mandates, myocarditis. What else do you people possibly want? Like you have somebody with a long background of questioning Big Pharma's influence on oncology drugs, which is his previous specialty, coming into office, scrutinizing a drug, which again was linked to a couple of deaths, and then getting Rick Santorum and Laura Loomer to do their dirty work and to fire him.

40:34I mean it's completely outrageous. It's genuinely – not only character assassination but real ramifications. And look, don't we want – according to RFK Jr., one of the precepts of Maha is that the FDA is captured by big pharma. What is more being captured by big pharma than getting a guy fired for refusing to – or for holding up the approval of a drug which did not, according to their internal scrutiny, did not meet the standards that they want. Again, just for pausing based on deceptive, according to them, approval status for what they gave. Now, I'm choosing my words carefully because people have a lot of money, and I'm sure they're very liable to sue.

41:15So I'm not claiming any linkage or any of that. I'm morally pointing to the fact that he came into office. They had a huge stock problem. Rick Santorum and them get on the case. The entire biotech lobby starts going after Vinay Prasad. Laura Loomer comes over the top, gets this guy fired, and now the company is super happy. But beyond that, the people who scrutinize and look at the FDA, even nonpartisan, are aghast at this thing because they're like this is one of the most direct big pharma interventions into the internal workings of the FDA. And of course the FDA is captured by big pharma. We're not stupid in terms of the way that they pay for it.

41:51There were the revolving door. There is no denial of that. These are things that have been highlighted by RFK Jr. and them himself. So the fact that this entire smear campaign worked against somebody who genuinely was just doing his job on this, it's repulsive to me. It's genuinely disgusting. Fired after just three months in office. And now, what do you and I know? Some fucking stooge is going to take his place over there. Or worse, somebody who's not nearly as credentialed with enough of a background. Yeah, someone who's more referring. I'm telling you, he was as good as it got over there. And, like, you could not ask for that.

42:28And what's the entire point of Maha? It's a big coalition. We had all these liberal moms and California Grunerola people to come into the Republican Party. But that's now being used against him because he used to be a lib who supported universal health care. Like, OK, you know, is that a crime now? Ask RFK Jr. Because to Stoller's point, it's a scam. I mean, fundamentally, it's a scam. And where is RFK Jr.? It's just not right. Where is RFK Jr. on this? You know, he hasn't spoken out again, so he didn't do anything to try to keep an eye on him. Allegedly spoke up for him. I don't know. Well, we haven't heard it publicly, that's for sure.

43:00Didn't do any different. It didn't make any difference at the end of the day. I mean, listen, Vinay Prasad, we had him on the show. He was, you know, I don't think that I agree with him on everything, but he was an intelligent person who was genuinely trying to sort through the data on vaccines. And he's not someone who's just like, he's not an anti-vax crank. He was questioning, okay, well, do you think that it's required to have the COVID vaccine for children? Teenage boys. Teenage boys. where there's the highest risk factor. You know, these are things that we should consider. Okay, that seems reasonable enough to be.

43:31Yeah, what is unreasonable about that? And the thing, too, to your point about, like, I mean, it really does expose how there was just, like, no principle involved here whatsoever. The whole reason of bringing someone like Vinay Prasad is because he did have that skepticism of, like, okay, well, maybe not all of these medical treatments are not for everyone. That's the whole reason that he was there. And so now when he's doing the thing that you literally brought him in to do, it's, nope, the pharma lobbyists, they get to win the day. And listen, I have known, I don't know about this drug. I don't know whether it's approved or not approved or paused or not paused or whatever, but it's very clear there was a big business-led ideological agenda against him.

44:09And the thing that really sank him was Laura Loomer digging up his old tweets where he's talking about Bernie Sanders. And by the way, a lot of these tweets are of the format of like, I used to be on the left and support Bernie Sanders. I'm so disappointed with the way that progressives have embraced COVID mandates, etc., etc. That was what a lot of the tweets that she sort of dug up to prove that he was such a lefty that he couldn't, a Trump hater that he couldn't possibly be in the administration. And so that's what I was saying before about, look, Laura Loomer, the reason she's so effective is because she actually understands what MAGA is.

44:43It's a cult of personality. And if you can convince the president that someone is insufficiently loyal, then they're going to be gone. She did the same thing. You know, I didn't object to this one as much when she nuked the guy who was supposed to be head of NASA. That was Elon's person that he wanted in there. And she found some, I don't know, donations to a couple Democrats. And that was enough to get him axed as well and pulled out. So, yeah, she she actually understands that there is no real ideology here. It is a cult of personality. And if you can frame something as MAGA or Maha or America First and find some tweet from the past where they expressed any sort of liberal values or criticism of Trump, that's enough to be able to get your agenda.

45:29And I'll show you guys how this all works from The Wall Street Journal. Go ahead and put B5 up there on the screen. This was one of the editorials just four days ago. It helped lead to the ousting of Vinay. Vinay Prasad is a Bernie Sanders acolyte in Maha drag. I mean, no, he is Maha. The point is, is that they're the people who are in Maha drag because they want speedier approvals for drugs that could be linked to deaths. They called him a one-man death panel in here. A one-man death panel. And there were multiple Wall Street Journal op-eds about this same thing, by the way. Yeah, quote, like Dr.

46:05Fauci, Dr. Prasad thinks he knows what's best for people. That's not the government's job to make it happen. He quote, he previously said, I favor a strong regulatory state just as Dr. Fauci slowed experimental HIV. Yeah, that's the same. Like get out of here. In recent weeks, the FDA has rejected three therapies for the debilitating diseases that have shown promise in clinical trials. The agency was forced off the market of gene therapy that can slow degenerative loss of muscular function in young boys, which genetic mutations behold America's strong and arbitrary regulatory state at work. Not to mention, though, that this treatment was costing millions and, of course, is padding the bottom line of the drug maker.

46:44This is why it is just so ridiculous because you literally could not ask for somebody better to actually come in to be skeptical of this. And to say that he's motivated by any of this ideology, ridiculous. because long before COVID, this guy has like a decade plus of publishing specifically how the FDA is way too easy with drug approval, is too captured by pharma. He has written some of the best skeptical analysis I've ever seen on so many different drug approvals that have nothing to do with COVID, by the way. Different screening and other things, which he says are captured by big money. This is the Maha critique.

47:26And I know, by the way, this is true because I know a bunch of Maha figures are disgusted by this. But listen, guys, this is the movement that you're all in right now. And the fact that very few people are actually speaking out against it shows you who all really runs the show. I mean, I don't know, good luck. Because whoever takes this job, we all know is gonna be a lot more. And even if somebody who is a new Vinay, somebody like that, what do you learn from this? What do you learn from this? Do not piss off the MAGA right, Big Pharma, or any of these other people. It's terrible, terrible precedent.

47:57And that's why I think it's such an important story. The antitrust story and this one because this is how business is being done in Washington. This is about as the opposite of like drain the swamp or whatever that people get. And I think this also – I'm hoping this one resonates because so many of you probably know him from YouTube, from this show, from – I mean he's been on so many different podcasts and all these. He's such an effective science communicator. I really could not think of somebody better who you would want in the job. But good luck. Congratulations, Laura. Congratulations to Rick Santorum.

48:26I guess I'm going to go out and buy Septera stock, okay? You know, might as well make some money if this is the country that we're all going to live in. All right, let's go on to tech. This is a similarly important story here. Theo Vaughn recently sat down with Sam Altman about privacy and AI. Actually fascinating. Let's take a listen. What legal system does AI have to work by? Is there like a legal – like we have laws like in the world, right, like in the human world? Yeah, so I think we will certainly need a legal or a policy framework for AI. One example that we've been thinking about a lot, this is like a, maybe not quite what you're asking.

49:05This is like a very human-centric version of that question. People talk about the most personal shit in their lives to ChatGPT. It's, you know, people use it, young people especially, like use it as a therapist, a life coach, having these relationship problems. What should I do? and right now if you talk to a therapist or a lawyer or a doctor about those problems there's like legal privilege for it you know like it's there's doctor patient confidentiality there's legal confidentiality whatever and we haven't figured that out yet for when you talk to chat gpt so if you go talk to chat gpt about your most sensitive stuff and then there's like a lawsuit or whatever like we could be required to produce that and i think that's very screwed up i think we should have like the same concept of privacy for your conversations with AI that we do with a therapist or whatever.

49:51And no one had to think about that even a year ago. And now I think it's this huge issue of like, how are we going to treat the laws around this? Well, do you think there should be like kind of like a, like a slowing things down before we move there kind of? Cause yeah, that is kind of wild. It's one of the reasons I get scared sometimes to use certain AI stuff because, um, I don't know how much personal information I want to put in cause I don't know who's going to have it. I think we need this point addressed with some urgency. Um, and you know, the policymakers I've talked to about it, like broadly agree.

50:19It's just, it's new and now we got to do it quickly. Do you talk to Chachi Bt? I don't talk to it that much. One of the main, one of my, because of this, I think it is. It's because it's like, I think it makes sense to not talk to Chachi Bt. No, no, no. To like really want the privacy clarity before you use it a lot. Yeah. Like the legal clarity. Yeah. It's scary. And it's like, well, how long does it take lawmakers to come up with that? And then it feels like it's moving so fast that it's like it doesn't even matter. That sometimes it's like it doesn't even really matter. It's like, are we even waiting for the laws to be put around this or what's going on?

50:50Does it feel like it's moving too fast for you sometimes? The last few months have felt very fast. It feels faster and faster, but the last few months have felt very fast. I don't know. I really, I'm curious what you make of that conversation. I read it two ways because number one, I think it is objectively crazy that, you know, the information or whatever you put into AI is subject to subpoena or whatever from the government, all your private information. Let's be honest, though, that's been true of Google search now for 20 years. It's not exactly a big change. But I'm also pretty skeptical of the idea that they should be like, like that their privacy or their information on you should be subject to a privacy standard, which they themselves get to control.

51:30So I feel very torn about the entire thing because it really just highlights the story of power around this and about personal information. You know what I mean? Because what Sam is advocating for. Well, Sam says you're right to not use ChatGPT. I mean, that's pretty wild. Yeah, by the way, I'm screwed. I use ChatGPT for a lot. And here's what's different about ChatGPT versus Google to some extent is it's being sold in part as like, oh, this can be your buddy. This can be your therapist. The therapy thing really freaks me out. Right. There's those documented cases of people with schizo using chat GPT, and it gets them to do even crazier.

52:07They validate their insane beliefs. That's right. And then you have – with Grok, you now have these – what do they call them? Companions. Oh, yeah. They're really – they're really pushing these bots to be like an intimate part of your life. And that is different than Google search. So I think it needs to be addressed. I do think there needs to be some sort of like, you know, patient client privileged information kind of a situation or even ask him for legal advice, like all of that. But I'll tell you, I watched I watched this whole conversation. I think it's worth watching. I thought Theo asked some very incisive and interesting questions, including at one point he asked Sam Altman if he was just like a charming Terminator, which is like, yeah, I think you kind of nailed it with that one.

52:51And he asked him at another point if him and his other like Peter Thiel and these other tech guys are fully human or if they're like more robot than human, which was, you know, elicit an interesting response as well. But Sam at one point spells out his sort of like what he's floating as how to deal with the AI revolution in which, you know, many jobs, most of human labor is rendered basically irrelevant. And he spells, I mean, you should listen to what he has in mind. It's basically like a one world government, new world order. We all have these chits that we can buy and trade with each other that come out of the benevolence of Sam and the other tech overlords who are going to allot us our certain number of chits.

53:43That's the sort of thing that he has in mind for what the world is going to look like. And he's very casual about the amount of change. He acknowledges this is going to be like the world is not going to be the way that it was before. It's going to be completely different. And then you're like, how? And he's like, I don't know. And you should be like that should make you very, very nervous. So there's another interesting exchange where I think Sam asked Theo, you know, if people could vote about should the tech stop? What do you think that they would vote? And Theo was like, I think they'd vote to stop it or at least pause or at least like, you know, I think you said, like, put some sugar in the gas tank or something like slow it down.

54:23And of course, that is, we've seen the polling. Overwhelmingly, people are very uncomfortable with the pace of change and the lack of any sort of thought put into how this is going to completely transform humanity, human relations. Like the, you know, the fact that we derive so much of our dignity and self-worth and identity from work and their idea is just to wipe that away. And there's no care or thought being put into any of this. Yeah, I think it's reasonable to be quite concerned about that. And I don't think you will come away from this conversation with Sam Altman feeling any less concerned than you did going in.

54:58I totally agree, especially whenever you start to link it to Mark Zuckerberg's recent announcement about how super intelligence is very nearly here. Now, keep in mind, I want to explain the business factors behind this. Mark Zuckerberg has always hated Apple. Why? Because Apple and the iPhone is the gateway to the Instagram and the Facebook Blue app, which means that they control and have effectively hurt their business on advertising. So he is obsessed with the idea of building the new iPhone, the new platform. That's why they're going all in on those meta glasses because they want the glasses to replace the phone to be the sole way that you interact with technology so they can roll up the entire economic reward and take it away from the future of Apple.

55:41Keep that in mind for why they're spending literally trillions of dollars now on super intelligence and on AI because they want to break through and make the first piece of consumer electronics, which fully is able to replace your experience with the phone. So keep all of that in mind with what he's saying here about how super intelligence is actually pretty quick and about what the future of technology is going to look like. Let's take a listen. I want to talk about our new effort, Meta Super Intelligence Labs, and our vision to build personal super intelligence for everyone. AI keeps accelerating, and over the past few months, we've begun to see glimpses of AI systems improving themselves.

56:17So developing superintelligence is now in sight. But there's this big open question about what we should direct superintelligence towards. A lot has been written about the scientific and economic advances that AI can bring, and I'm really optimistic about this. What I think an even more meaningful impact in our lives is going to come from everyone having a personal superintelligence that helps you achieve your goals, create what you want to see in the world, be a better friend, and grow to become the person that you aspire to be. This vision is different from others in the industry who want to direct AI at automating all of the valuable work.

56:53At Meta, we believe in putting the power of superintelligence in people's hands to direct it towards what they value in their own lives. Some of this will be about improving productivity, but a lot of it may be more personal in nature. This is going to be a new era in some ways, but in others, it's just a continuation of historical trends. About 200 years ago, 90 % of people were farmers growing food to survive. Today, fewer than 2 % grow all of our food. Advances in technology have freed much of humanity to focus less on subsistence and more on the pursuits that we choose. And at each step along the way, most people have decided to use their newfound productivity to spend more time on creativity, culture, relationships, and just enjoying life.

57:38And I expect superintelligence to accelerate this trend even more. So you guys can see that we want superintelligence for everyone and we're all going to have better friends. Because that's definitely been a consequence. I mean, this is look, it's all out in the open. They want the metaglasses to replace the iPhone. They want the AI superintelligence to become the sole way that we all interact. It's going to be Minority Report. That's their vision. And, you know, it sounds kind of cool until you start thinking about the economics of it because already there's this huge debate within ChatGPT about what free ChatGPT should look like.

58:12And everyone's like, guys, just copy Google and put ads in the feed. Like why don't we just – and so that really raises the question of like if you think about what, quote, went wrong with Google search, if anything did go wrong, it was not just the introduction of AdWords but about how the ranking became disaggregated. from what was the best content and ultimately just came about trying to sell you as many ads as humanly possible. Obviously, it's turned out to be an incredible business for all of them. That's basically what Facebook did too. It was a bankrupt company. It made no money. And then they were like, oh, we got to put ads in the feed.

58:41Same with Instagram. I mean, it took forever, but they eventually turned it into a multi-billion dollar business. YouTube, same thing. For a lot of people who are watching this video for free, you probably had to sit there and wait or you had to pay for YouTube premium. But that's the dystopian corporatized future of what this all looks like. And it's actually all a fight for making it so that you put all your attention and use on the device just so they can sell you either advertising or you have to pay for the privilege of not being subjected to advertising. I pay$20 a month for ChatGPT. Yeah.

59:12Well, these people are terrifying. I mean, they're terrifying. They are terrifying. And the idea is basically that, you know, think of how much power they already have. If their dreams and wishes and aspirations come true, they will be basically like all powerful figures that control what we can all do on this entire planet. I mean, that's what they're aiming for. If you listen to them, there's a chilling moment in that interview with Sam Altman and Theo Vaughn. Theo makes, again, a very incisive comment of when you look at these data centers from above, it looks like you're turning the planet into like a computer circuit board.

59:50and Sam Altman's like, yeah, that is what it's going to look like. That is what we're, because they are so massive. And then there's the questions too of like the resources that it takes. There's already huge burdens in terms of the water that's needed. I mean, the amount of water that is needed to cool these things is like unbelievable. The amount of power that's taken. And Theo asked him about that. And Sam says basically like, well, we're hoping to get to fission energy and then that'll solve the problem. And we believe that AI will help us to get there. So we need to race to get to fission energy.

1:00:25We need to build out and consume all the resources now so that we can hope to get to fission energy to solve the problem with the AI in the future. That's what they're betting on. Yes. So, I mean, the whole thing is just incredibly disturbing, dystopian. The implications are beyond anyone, including people who are developing its capacity to really comprehend. and we're just barreling towards it 1 ,000 miles per hour with all of the breaks cut. And another thing I want to highlight, this was flagged to me by a couple of friends of mine. Let's go ahead and put this up there on the screen, is that the behavior of these companies too is really horrible in terms of how they view American workers.

1:01:03So this is an H-1B visa scandal that came out of Microsoft. So, quote, Microsoft's H-1B visa applications are questioned amid mass layoffs. So very recently, they are growing pressure to account for its new H-1B visa requests, affecting around 9 ,000 employees. So what happened is that they fired 9 ,000 people at two waves in May and June, affecting another 8 ,000 total. The company has laid off nearly 16 ,000 people in total this year out of the 228 ,000 strong global employee base. In the weeks, though, that followed those layoff announcements, you began to see that the company had apparently applied for some 6 ,000 high schooled work visas or H-1Bs since October, the current start of the fiscal year.

1:01:44And while that number – what they look at is that they applied last year for a similar number of some 9 ,491 H-1B visas, all of which were approved. This – remember the whole H-1B scandal that we covered – what was it, six months ago or some? By the way, Elon and Trump, very approving of this. This demonstrates, I want to see for everybody, that they don't care even about the tech workers here in America. They will outsource it all, use this like slave labor type system where you basically have these guys locked to a desk with these contracts, fire people who have actual rights like labor rights here as American citizens.

1:02:21But this is all part of a scheme to just roll things up to the bottom line. Microsoft is, of course, partnered with who? OpenAI and with ChatGPT, right? The most use of AI and ChatGPT apparently that I have heard of is in the Microsoft Teams. A lot of our corporate listeners will understand what I'm saying. But like they use AI as part of their enterprise software. So I'm just showing people here how they do not care about American workers and or labor. And now this is a global problem because they don't really care about any workers anywhere. They don't care about anyone. They do not care, period.

1:02:53They don't care about humanity. Yes. They don't. Their entire mission is just to increase the stock price, their own personal wealth, and control. And so this is exactly why, by the way, we need more actual government protection for a lot of the workers who are also – the irony is these are the people who are actually implementing AI at an enterprise level and are being screwed over by the H-1B visa system. So it's just ridiculous. Listen to Peter Thiel, Hem and Ha, when he's asked whether he thinks the human race should persist. I wish I had been here for that. Listen to how he hems and haws.

1:03:26Last thing, and then we'll get to Owen Jones here who's standing by. A CEO was bragging in an interview about how excited he is to fire people because of AI, to your point. Elijah Clark, a chief executive who advises other head honchos on using AI at their companies, says CEOs are extremely excited about the opportunities AI brings. As a CEO myself, I can tell you, I'm extremely excited about it. I've laid off employees myself because of AI. AI does not go on strike. It doesn't ask for a pay raise. These things that you don't have to deal with as a CEO. So there you go. If you had any question in your mind about how they think about you and how they will treat you in the future, here you go.

1:04:08They are thrilled to be able to fire you and make your life a living hell. There you go. All right. And then replace you, by the way, with cheap labor if they actually - Or a robot. Yeah. So, okay. Got it. That's why we need a lot more. All right. Owen Jones standing by. Let's get to it. Thank you. On the new podcast Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first.

1:04:44I'm on a mission to reclaim the word Solita, trading the pity for possibility. Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind, or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:05:45books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm gonna have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. From best-selling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:06:21See you between the pages. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced.

1:07:08But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There are a whole bunch of interesting things happening in the UK. So we brought in our friend Owen Jones, who is an author and journalist and also has a great YouTube channel to break all of this down for us. Great to see you, Owen. Good to see you. Great to see you. How are you doing, guys? Very good. So Keir Starmer has announced his plan to potentially recognize a Palestinian state in September if there is no ceasefire.

1:07:46Let's go ahead and take a listen to that. Today, as part of this process towards peace, I can confirm the UK will recognize the state of Palestine by the United Nations General Assembly in September, unless the Israeli government takes substantive steps to end the appalling situation in Gaza, agree to a ceasefire, and commit to a long-term sustainable peace, reviving the prospect of a two-state solution. So, Owen, what do you make of this move? And how much pressure has Starmer been under? Firstly, put a trigger warning on next time before you just put Keir Starmer on. I was in quite a zen place before.

1:08:28It's nauseating. Sincere. Nauseating stuff. Using the inalienable right of the Palestinian people to national self-determination as what, leverage? As a bargaining chip? I mean, it's just gross. And it makes no logical sense whatsoever, by the way. What's he arguing for here? that Britain won't recognise the state of Palestine if Israel tones down its genocide a bit. Keir Starmer, at the very beginning of this genocide, he was in the opposition at the time, but was seen rightly as the prime minister in waiting and had huge influence as opposition leader. He backed the right of Israel to impose a siege against the people of Gaza.

1:09:09He said that Israel does have that right. He's a human rights lawyer. I know what Article 33 of the Geneva Convention, amongst other parts of international law, say. He certainly does. He then tries to gaslight everyone to say he didn't actually believe that. That's just one example of what we're dealing with here. Britain continues to provide crucial components for the F-35 jets, which are raiding death and destruction on the people of Gaza. Britain is refusing to impose actual proper sanctions on Israel. They did sanctions against two far-right ministers, which is very easy with Bezalel and Smotrich.

1:09:44sorry, Ben Gavir and Samotrich. It's very easy to make them the bogeymen rather than imposing actual sanctions on Israel. I could go on. I mean, he chose a symbolic action, which he's, and I'm not saying it's not important to recognize Palestinian right to national self-determination. I'm not saying that. But just factually speaking, there isn't going to be a Palestine left to recognize. So, Owen, this is wiped out. My question is about where this is coming from. Is it from internal politics in the UK Like, where does this level of pressure? Because as you said, yeah, we can separate the decision itself, but clearly it's a result of something, not just the situation in Gaza.

1:10:22And it's joining France and I believe Canada as well, which has made similar announcements. So was this like an internal NATO discussion? What's your assessment for like where Keir Starmer is coming from in making this announcement at this time? I mean, it is partly clear that they're working in lockstep. because, for example, with the sanctions on the two far-right ministers, that was done in coordination with each other. They've issued a lot of letters together, European nations, which are expressing their sadness and disappointment about what Israel's doing without actual any teeth. So it's definitely that.

1:10:58He is under pressure in terms of there are 200-plus members of parliament demanding that he recognise the state of Palestine. That has a lot to do with the mass protests we've seen in this country. Huge numbers have been involved in protests. Labour lost two of Keir Starmer's main allies last year in the general election to candidates either in the Green Party or anti-genocide candidates who stood making Gaza's genocide, Israel's genocide a key fundamental issue. We're going to talk about the new party. That's just been set up. But he is under pressure. but that you know it it's not meaningful action that's been taken the all the options actually available to him he's taken the tokenistic one and made it um a bargaining chip um so it does he looks flustered by the way he does look concerned um he's he's less popular than cholera at the moment in the opinion polls um but you know the government's falling apart but this is tokenistic and an attempt and it's not had any impact because it's actually caused fury amongst pro-Israel people who are so deranged that any acceptance of Palestinian humanity is likely to set them off um but at the same time um it obviously has caused fury amongst those who oppose the genocide for the reason of themselves yeah yeah it's an attempt for him to not really take any side and in doing so is obviously not pleasing anyone um let's talk a little bit about Corbyn and this new party uh that he established Corbyn of course was kicked out of the Labour Party.

1:12:33And interestingly, seems to have a lot of support. You can break down the numbers. You can put D3 up on the screen. This was Corbyn's op-ed in The Guardian talking about why he was starting this party. The headline here is this labor government has failed. People want real transformative politics. We will give it to them. And let me just, before we get to a little bit of your, you just had an interview with him as well. Before we get to that, just talk a little bit about the impetus for this party? And are you surprised by the level of support for it in these early days? Well, I think there's been quite a lot of pressure in Corbyn for quite a while amongst some of his allies to launch a party.

1:13:10In fact, he was kicked out of the Labour Party back in 2020. And there was a drawn out process where, you know, look, he joined the Labour Party two decades before I was born. I'm a geriatric millennial. He joined the Labour Party in 1965. He's been a Labour member of Parliament since 1983. He's represented the same constituency all that time. the Labour Party you know he's surrounded by people who he knows through the Labour Party it's a big part of his life you know I think it was just he didn't for a long time he just felt you know that was my party and I'm going to go through the process to get readmitted but you know so some wanted him to go earlier and what actually happened is he stood as an independent candidate in the last general election and in that election you got four other anti-genocide candidates got elected as independents it's very difficult in our system to get elected as independent we've got first past the post here let you guys do a different form but it's very difficult there's been in competitive elections eight politicians have been elected um as independent since world war ii five of them in the last election of warland was him the green party also won four seats uh positioning themselves as a left-wing anti-genocide party but they also gained second against behind number 39 seats i guess the sense was that now finally i think he felt well actually you know there is that there was a lot of demand coming out there i guess zach polanski is running to be leader of the green party and is likely to win on a kind of leftist very similar platform um and i guess there was a sense you know the the how that relationship will work will be interesting um but i guess there was a sense of there should be an avowedly socialist party that exists and and what you know this is going to bring together lots of the independents who got elected as politicians and the grassroots movements that exist outside which have been mobilised by the genocide, but also, of course, by, you know, we've had the worst squeeze in living standards since the Napoleonic age in this country.

1:14:59Our public services are falling apart, like our National Health Service. And the Labour government had very little enthusiasm to begin with. They won two thirds of seats on one third of the vote with the lowest turnout in the history of British democracy. And it's been downhill all the way since. So there was a sense of there has to be an alternative because if not, Nigel Farage, our Trumpian politician, he will just soak up all the disillusionment he will win by default he's on course to be prime minister at this rate if you believe the polling that would be a catastrophe clearly so there's a sense of there has to be something else that shifts people's anger disillusionment in the direction of taxing those who are doing very well and investing in services public ownership not arming genocide rather than let's kick out all the migrants and refugees see that's why i find fascinating about the whole thing and why i so much more prefer your political system because the centers can fall out and new parties can happen.

1:15:50You mentioned, I'm sure we disagree, but at least for me, it's fascinating to watch reform basically replace the conservative party. You mentioned there, Nigel Farage. And then similarly, also the destruction of labor. So the two central parties are both falling apart with the creation of actually new parties where a lot of voters are flocking to. Is that kind of how you see it? Like the destruction of the entire political establishment? Well, our system in lots of ways is supposed to be quite similar to yours actually i mean in that we've basically just had a two-party system yeah since uh you know the 1930s um so i mean you're right is that what's happened to the conservative party because the conservative party is the most successful political party on earth in this country it's it's uh it's it's been around since 1832 and it dominated the 20th century so it's you know an electoral giant uh which has fallen apart and it's this phenomenon you're seeing across the western world which is the so-called center right has basically gone into liquidation it's either in the case of like the us the so-called senate right party gets taken over by what i would regard as the far right or new far right parties in western european countries have just eclipsed the old center right parties who themselves then try and adopt their policies to catch in a game of catch-up that's what's happened here the center the conservatives now are you know way way different you know they'd be they their politics are not that different from nigel far as anyway already but they're being eclipsed um but what's interesting is if things are so unpredictable because we've got first past that key main part is alive a lot of the time but that's changing because of the disillusionment with them that's already showed the cracks of reform and with it because it under our system you could end up like labor did they got 33.7 percent of the vote and they got two-thirds of the seats yeah but now if you have reform you have a new left you've got to see its relationship with the Greens, and then you've got the Conservatives, and you've got the Liberal Democrats, who are just a waste of time, but they still exist.

1:17:48You know, and then you get the Scottish National Party in Scotland. They've dominated politics for a long time. And you've also got the Welsh Nationalist, Plaid Cymru. So things are fragmenting here, and that's what gives this an opening. Because it used to be Labour or Conservative, like it was Democrats or Republicans, with the election making it very difficult for any other outcome. but that is definitely changing. But it means a very unpredictable outcome because you can win on a very low share of the vote. I don't think our electoral system will survive. I suspect we'll end up with proportional representation because it kind of looks silly at this point.

1:18:22Interesting. You did have a sit-down yesterday with Jeremy Corbyn and you asked him about Israel and Palestine and how important that is to the energy that is behind his new party. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of that. With Israel's genocide, I mean, you know i mean i think to myself i mean i don't i want to phrase this properly because i don't want to talk about the genocide extermination of the palestinian view as though some teachable lessons of the world it's one of the abominations of our time but you know it's changed me forever it's changed other people forever do you think it has fundamentally changed politics in a way that isn't actually properly understood yet i mean we look back the financial crash the iraq all these all had long-term remarkable.

1:19:05Brought out the human in a lot of people that didn't come out before. The previous genocides, you think Cambodia, you think Rwanda, you think Darfur, you think Second World War, all those genocides were not on live television in the way that this one is. Yes, in the case of particularly Rwanda, there was quite a lot of television coverage, but not to the extent we get now. We now get this live coverage. I don't know about you. I watch lots of different international channels, usually late at night, sort of Al Jazeera, France 24, and so on. Even I find it hard to look at it. When you see a mother with a baby, she's so emaciated and hungry and dehydrated, she can't create enough milk in herself to feed her baby.

1:19:56And she's got this wailing, crying baby who's clearly near to death. So you're watching live stream. And what? Gaza is quite small, probably 10 kilometers away. The size of East London, yeah. There's water, there's milk, there's food, there's everything that that baby needs. And it's been deliberately done by the state of Israel and by the idea. In plain sight. And so, Owen, I'm actually curious for your answer to your own question, because I become increasingly convinced that I don't think the politicians here get it yet. but Israel-Palestine is becoming the central dividing line, certainly within the Democratic Party, but I think more broadly within American politics because it's such a moral red line.

1:20:36Do you support or oppose genocide? And if you're on the wrong side of that, then I really have no use for you on anything else. And so I'm curious if there's a similar sense in the UK of this issue becoming increasingly central. I think it's totemic. I think you're absolutely right. I don't think the consequences will be properly understood for a very long time, actually. I think it's like a massive rupture in terms of what came before. It has politicized large numbers of people who weren't particularly political before. I think people seeing, because of the work of Palestinian journalists who've been slaughtered and the biggest butcher of journalists in human history, and technology, that they can, as Jeremy Corbyn spoke about there, can broadcast their own extermination to the world.

1:21:22the gap between what people can see and hear and read and what politicians are saying and what mainstream media outlets are saying is so incredibly vast that I think it's led people to think if they're not telling me the truth about this or if they're reporting this like that, what else is going on? So I think it's become totemic. I think it has, I mean, it really has, I speak to people, you know, I speak to a lot of people about this and they feel the same, I feel changed by it, completely transformed by it. I think lots of people feel transformed by it. I think there's that sense of, it's kind of that legitimacy to rule, that if there are just certain red lines, that if you are complicit in a genocide, you have lost any legitimacy.

1:22:09You have lost moral legitimacy, you have lost political legitimacy, and nothing you can ever say or do again can scrub that away. And I think that has consequences because I think it leads people to have, when you've got that level of moral clarity, there's lots of things in life, I look back and do it, well, you know, you're not always entirely sure about something. When you're so sure about something so evil and extreme and depraved and shameless and all apologetic and confessed to, then I think it gives you this toughness that a lot of people have developed to just think to themselves, we've got to sweep this establishment away.

1:22:44There's no going back. There's no going back to a before time. And I think that will have devastating political consequences. People in 30 years will look back and say, this is the moment that changed them and made them, you know, people talk about the Iraq war like that. I talk to people at the time, you know, people talk about that. There's something so visceral about this. Yeah. Go, stop. Yeah. Interesting. I agree with you. I think it will change politics forever. Thank you. Great to see you. And we hope to have you back again soon. Thanks, man. Appreciate it. Cheers, guys.

1:23:46Every time I tried to be alone, I kept meeting people and they were like, you smiled at us. Not a lot of people smile around here. It's when you're alone that you're most receptive to the world as it is and not the lies you're sold about it. It can be a time where you push your limits, change your mind or wake up to a new version of yourself. So whether you're a solo travel veteran or you're too nervous to book your first trip, I hope you listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home.

1:24:24This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo, and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. So obsessed. From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, Nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse.

1:25:01Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to Pro Society on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped. and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything.

1:25:43Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. They're stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So we have a few other important developments with regard to Israel in particular.

1:26:25This was kind of an extraordinary moment. John Mearsheimer, professor, we've obviously had him on this show, very well known, sat down with Tucker Carlson and explained why, in his view, what Israel was doing in Gaza is clearly a genocide. Let's take a listen to that. And this is in large part because of Israel. And this is just a strategic dimension. We're not even talking about the moral dimension. I mean, the Israelis are executing a genocide in Gaza, and we are complicitous in that genocide. When you say it's a genocide, what do you mean? Well, if you look at what the definition of a genocide is, right, it's where one country tries to destroy either all or a substantial portion of another group, another ethnic or religious or national group for the purposes of basically destroying that group identity.

1:27:20That's what you're talking about here. I think that that's the definition of genocide. It's laid out in the 1948 convention. They're trying to destroy Palestinian national identity in addition to murdering huge numbers of Palestinians. And I mean, it's not just a rage reflex. This is a strategy, of course, two and a half years later, almost three years later. What is the strategy? What's the goal of this? My view on this is that the Israelis have long been interested in expelling the Palestinian population from greater Israel. If you look at greater Israel, this includes the Israel that was created in 1948 and the occupied, plus the occupied territories.

1:28:18This is the West Bank. The post-67. Post-67, West Bank and Gaza. So West Bank, Gaza, and what we call Green Line Israel. That's greater Israel. Inside greater Israel, there are about 7.3 million Jews and about 7.3 million Palestinians. And from the get-go, going back to the early days of Zionism and the views of people like David Ben-Gurion, they believed that you needed a Jewish state that was about 80 % Jewish and 20 % Palestinian. In an ideal world, you would get rid of all the Palestinians. But the least bad alternative is 80-20. But you actually have a situation in greater Israel where you have 50-50.

1:29:07So October 7th happens. And what the Israelis see is an excellent opportunity for ethnic cleansing. And they make this clear. In other words, it's an excellent opportunity to go to war in Gaza and drive the Palestinians out of Gaza and solve that demographic problem that they face. That's such a dark thing. And therefore, that's a very strong allegation. On what basis are you making it? Oh, there's just a huge amount of data that supports this in the Israeli press. They have been perfectly willing to make this argument loudly and clearly. So, Sagar, I'm curious your reflection on the import of that moment, given how important Tucker is on the right.

1:29:54Yeah, well, I think it's obviously very, very important for the right just because you have Marjorie Taylor Greene, you have Tucker Carlson. Now, by the way, the email that was the title of the episode that went out to Tucker Carlson's subscribers was titled Genocide. And so I think it's important for displaying where there's all of this talk about support for Israel and how MAGA supports Trump no matter what. Fine. That's only 30 percent of the country. Disapproval for – actually, approval for Israeli military action today stands at a whopping 32 percent, which means you have 70 percent of the American public.

1:30:24So that means if you look at it objectively, that's the vast majority of Democrats and about half of Republican voters. Now, self-identified Republicans may have some 71 percent, but I'm talking about the independents, many who didn't vote for Donald Trump. So it's pretty obvious where this comes in terms of its mainstream view. But more importantly, I think it highlights where you have both the youth Republican vote, the way that they're going. You have politicians like Marjorie Taylor Greene and others really putting themselves out there for, I mean, you and I both know, like, the amount of pushback that they're going to get on that episode.

1:30:58It's going to be unbelievable. And it shows the dichotomy between the current administration and where at least a decent number of his supporters or people who did vote for him are now falling apart within the coalition. I mean, on the Democratic side, the number that supports what Israel is doing is 8%. Right, exactly. 8%. Yeah, but 90 percent of senators. Yeah, exactly. We'll get to that. We'll talk about where the Senate Democrats are at this point because we have some numbers with regard to that. But, you know, according to New York City voters, you had some roughly 80 percent who said, yeah, it's a genocide.

1:31:32You had another 60 plus percent, 63, 64 percent, something like that, who were like, if Bibi Netanyahu comes to New York City, yes, he should be arrested because he's a war criminal. Like that's where the base of the Democratic Party is. Independents are largely in line with that. Republicans are more supportive of Israel. But yes, if you look at younger Republicans, there is a shift. And just very quickly on the term genocide and why I think it's important to assert, to use this word and assert what it is, it's because it comes with a moral weight and responsibility. If you are a United States senator and you admit Israel is committing a genocide, how can you justify sending any weapons?

1:32:11How can you justify, you know, you are in this position of power? How can you justify not doing all that you possibly can, given that this is our ally who we've been supporting and aiding and abetting in this gem side? How can you live with yourself if you aren't doing everything you can to stop the flow of arms and to cut off the support and to end the genocide? And that's why, to me, the word is important, because for people, it carries a certain amount of history with it and a certain level of moral weight. See, I actually disagree with, I'm sure I'm going to get cooked for this one, I already know.

1:32:46But I agree with Bernie Sanders, who said, quote, it's a legal term. And the reason why is, look, I mean, I think my view is, I know it's going to be unpopular with much of our left-wing audience on this. But, I mean, that's fine. Unpopular, apparently, with Tucker and John Mearsheimer, too. That's fine. I mean, I disagree with John whenever we had him on here, too, because I don't accept the precept of international law. There's no such thing as international law. There's no such thing as illegal invasions. Genocide itself was a term that was literally made up in the post-World War II era. and enshrined in so-called international law.

1:33:14Every time the term has been used, it's actually been used as a justification for the U.S. empire to go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. Serbia was a genocide, Kosovo, genocide. Well, this is the opposite, though. This is a reason to pull back hard support for these activities, military activities. Right, but let's consider the weight of that term because then we have Elie Weisel's son on national television saying that Iranians want genocide and that's why we need to go in to bomb them. So the natural result of the term... But just because somebody uses the term incorrectly Does it mean that we shouldn't also use the term correctly when it applies?

1:33:45OK, but the reason why I reject, again, the entire framework of all of these like post-World War II, internationally law, made up humanitarian ways is because most of them are used for justifications. Actually, I can't think of a single instance in which it was not used to justify dramatic U.S. intervention. And also, if it was, would it not then be a reason? Like, would you sit here and say the U.S. should bomb Israel? You don't think that the word should exist? Well, no, I'm saying I don't use it. You don't think it, I mean, because it is a word. It has meaning. And so the question is, does it meet the definition?

1:34:21It's a made up word from the post-World War II Nuremberg era, which is why I don't use it. You just don't think it's a word that should exist? No, I don't think anything. You don't think it's a thing? What's wrong with ethnic cleansing and mass murder? These are all like value neutral terms, which have, again, a much longer standing definition. We live in a society where people have accepted this as a word that has a certain definition. and comes with certain moral weight and responsibility. That's exactly what I object to. And that's why, and that's, but in this instance, you have to acknowledge it meets the definition.

1:34:50It is important to have that moral weight and responsibility. And we are, us being complicit in it means that we, by ending our support for that, like that is an incredible moral and strategic imperative, which is what Mearsheimer talks about in this clip as well. But here's the problem, and this is very intellectual, so I want everybody to stick with me. The use of the word genocide is a key part of the, quote, responsibility to protect doctrine, which was invented under the post-World War II and unipolar moment, through which the precept is that this is why the United States never called the Rwandan genocide a genocide, is because it would mean the United States armed forces should go abroad and to stop it.

1:35:24I don't believe that or accept that at all. I don't accept that mass murder is a reason for the U.S. to deploy its troops. We'll move on because we gotta get to our guests, but I just wanna be clear about your position. No matter what happens, you wouldn't call it a genocide because you just don't believe in that term. I don't believe in the term and especially the way that it is used. So they literally nuked and murdered all 2 million Palestinians. I mean, I'm just asking, you just object to the use of the term at all. Absolutely. And this is why I think it's key. Because in its post-World War II invention, it is used as a device to justify US armed intervention abroad, whether it's ethnic cleansing or whether it's ethnic cleansing or genocide, mass murder.

1:36:04It's all bad, no? I mean, I don't know why. this is why these leftist semantic games are ridiculous to me like people attacking Tucker's out there playing leftist semantic games. No okay is Bernie Sanders not immediately under attack right now for not saying the word genocide? And he should be. That's so I'm sorry he is the leading person trying to stop offensive weapons to Israel and apparently that's not enough because he doesn't use the right language. This is just ridiculous. That's not true Sagar. You can give him credit for what he's doing as I'm about to do and also say no it does matter that you use that language because it does have a certain meaning.

1:36:35It has a definition. But the meaning means what? And it has a historical context. And I would say here, because our country and our tax dollars and our two bipartisan presidents have been actively involved in alien bedding that. Yes, of course we have a responsibility to protect because we're the ones who did the thing in the first place. No, but see, these are very important words. And I think we should get clear about the definition here. It's like, do you think then that the U.S. should use its armed military to stop Israeli action? Like, not just ending support. Yes. So we should bomb Israel.

1:37:02Well, I don't think that at all. You and I both know that is not necessary. Well, I agree. Because we can't do what they're doing without our support. But it's a hypothetical and a moral, it's a moral construct, right? Yes. In a hypothetical situation, if they don't, if we pull our support and we pull our diplomatic support and we sanction them and we do all the things and they're still genociding Palestinians, do I think that we should invade military? Yes. Yes, I do. I completely disagree with that. No, because we are the ones who—we created this situation. Well, that's— Like, we have a responsibility for it.

1:37:34Okay, what about the Armenian genocide, right? I mean, back in 1915, like, should the United States have deployed as—no, absolutely not. And by the way, it's horrible ethnic cleansing and mass murder. Because you wouldn't always use the U.S. military doesn't mean that you throw it out in all circumstances. I mean, we created—we are aiding and abetting this genocide. Yes, we have a responsibility. Yes, the language matters because it has a historical context and it has a moral weight. and it dictates, it puts a responsibility. You saw, that's why Alyssa Slotkin wants to weasel out of this sort of language because she knows it confers on her a responsibility.

1:38:08And that's why I think it's important for accountability. But I do want to get to the vote because this is important. Bernie, to your point, to his credit, forced a vote on blocking, it was two separate votes, on blocking some offensive weapons to Israel. We can put this up on the screen. You know, you can sort of look at this two different ways. record high number of Democratic senators, majority of the caucus, 27, voted for one of those resolutions. You can see their names up here on the screen. You know, to have a majority of Democrats vote for this is a major sea change. You know, it's a it's a major shift.

1:38:43The other resolution, which was specifically about thousand pound bombs, this one was, I believe, about assault rifles, did not have quite as high support. But you even had Jean Shaheen, who I believe is the ranking member on the Foreign Relations Committee. So very significant here. You'll recall we mentioned Alyssa Slotkin. In our interview with her, you and I both asked her specifically about whether she would end her support for offensive or defensive aid to Israel. Very slippery in her answer. Let's take a listen. Will you cut off aid to Israel so long as they're committing crimes against humanity.

1:39:17There is a difference between a weapon to protect a country from incoming missiles versus other type. Offensive and defensive weapons are different. So would you support offensive weapons ban? Like, would you stop any offensive aid to Israel? That certainly, to me, would be a place to look. But I'm not going to cut off a blanket next sale on a defensive weapon. So, Sagar, she says it would be a place to look. Well, lo and behold, she wasn't there. She didn't vote on it, didn't vote for the resolution to block offensive weapons. Apparently, I can put this up on the screen, she was recording an episode of The Late Show with Stephen Colbert.

1:40:00So, you know, she, I think, tried to express a lot of concern for what was going on in Gaza when she was here with us. But when it came down to using her power as a senator and a vote that was actually taken on the floor, she was not there to vote either way. Well, yeah. OK, so there you go. I got a little bit of our answer. I do think that is indeed interesting. We also had this interesting moment from the Israeli ambassador to the U.N. on Piers Morgan. Let's take a listen. You say that one child The New York Times put on the front page wasn't starving. He clearly was starving. He just had other medical issues going on as well.

1:40:37There are many, many images coming out of Gaza of starving children. We're not making this up. And if you really believe it's not happening, and all of this is a blood libel, then again, I've had this conversation with you before, you should be pressurizing your prime minister to allow international media to go into Gaza to verify exactly what is happening. You don't want journalists to go in there because what they're going to uncover and report to the world is utterly horrifying. You have destroyed two-thirds, if not more now, of the Gaza Strip. Tell me the lie. You spoke about the New York Times picture.

1:41:14Let's speak about that for a minute. That was blood libel. When you put a picture of a sick Palestinian boy who had the disease and you claimed that he was starving, that was a lie. I said that other children were starving. I said other children were starving. Do you deny that? No, you said that this boy was also starving. You want to rewind it two minutes ago? The boy is clearly, the boy was clearly, the boy was clearly emaciated, ambassador. Clearly emaciated. So yes, he has a medical condition, but also he's clearly not eating, right? So why deny what we see with our own eyes? So all of this is about a New York Times controversy.

1:41:55Let's put E5, please, up on the screen. So this was a photo that was on the front page of the New York Times and was kind of the centerpiece of a story that said Gazans are dying of starvation. Now, very quickly, Israeli officials and others were infuriated because their justification for the emaciation of this young child is that he suffers from other medical conditions, which led the New York Times to publish a, not a correction per se, it's more of an editor's note. Let's put that one up there on the screen. It says, children in Gaza are malnourished and starving. We recently ran a story about Gaza's most vulnerable civilians, including Mohammed Zakaria al-Mutakwa, who is roughly 18 months old and suffers from severe malnutrition.

1:42:34We have since learned new information, including from the hospital that treated him, and updated our story. This is additional detail, gives our readers a greater understanding of the situation. Our reporters and photographers continue to report from Gaza. So basically, the justification for much of the Israeli media and the government is that the New York Times published a blood libel because they did not mention the pre-existing condition of this child. I believe it's muscular dystrophy. However, it's pretty obvious, not just from the photo, but from the reporting as well as from the hospital notes and the doctors as well, that is suffering from malnutrition.

1:43:08It also is one of those things where it's like, okay, so let's pick 15 other photos. This one particular photo that was supposedly is the only image that they could find is preposterous. Unfortunately, you can actually go and find it literally anywhere, both on the internet. Dropsite has multiple. I mean, these are horrible. I don't even want to put them up here, but if you want to, we can. And it's one of those where it shows kind of the sickness of the way that the propaganda machine is currently working, is debunking this photo as a justification for why it's not happening actually at all. Well, not to mention, how sick is it to argue that because this child has another preexisting health condition, their starvation doesn't matter?

1:43:52Well, we've talked about that before as well. Is there also the most vulnerable to that? Of course. It's utterly grotesque. and his mother was actually interviewed by another publication. We can put this up on the screen about his preexisting condition, his other medical problems. And first of all, here's a picture of him as a younger infant. And you can see, you know, he is not emaciated. He has chubby baby cheeks and looks like a normal, healthy little baby. And they say that what she told this outlet is, my son Muhammad was born in December 2023 during the war without any chronic illnesses.

1:44:30Doctors diagnosed him with macrocephaly, which they said was caused by nutritional deficiencies during pregnancy due to the Israeli war. So according to his mom, even the medical conditions that he does suffer are because of him being born into this war and this horror being imposed by the Israelis. But it is disgusting beyond words to, first of all, dismiss all of the starvation that you see because this one child has another medical condition. And to dismiss this child as not really malnourished or not really counting because he has a medical condition. Yes, the reality is food and medicine and water and fuel are all being denied from the Gaza Strip and have been for months now.

1:45:13So, you know, those who have chronic conditions are also not going to be able to receive the medical treatment that they need separate and apart from sufficient nutrition in order to survive. So in any case, we're going to move on now to our guest, former Green Beret, who was a contractor with the so-called Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, who has been speaking out about the horror, starvation, death and destruction that he witnessed inside of Gaza. Let's get to it.

1:45:52On the new podcast, Solita, we share the messy reality of traveling alone as a woman. I can wait four hours for the next bus or this random dude is offering me a ride on his motorcycle. I chose option B. I'm Julie Pinheiro and I travel by myself because it's a rare space where I can say yes without asking anyone else first. I'm on a mission to reclaim the word solita, trading the pity for possibility. Listen to Solita on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1:46:27I survived nine months in captivity, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable, abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. These are stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to The Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your For You page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. Pro Society is a weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for anyone who thinks Pride and Prejudice and Love Island deserve the same level of discourse.

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