8/18/26: Tariff Refunds Boost Corporations, MAGA Sheriffs Revolt On Border Wall, Screens Ruining Education

24:18My cousins have a river guiding business. They're about to be blocked off from the Rio Grande. They won't be able to do tours down the river because there's going to be border wall outside the park and fencing and vehicle barriers inside the park, cutting off their access. So there's been a huge bipartisan outcry. And finally, yesterday, the CBP commissioner said that he was pausing construction and heading down to the park to put boots on the ground, which I'm grateful for. You would think he would have done that before the construction started. But I'm glad, at least for now, there's a pause.

24:51Let's put D2 up on the screen. There's a Trump donor that was awarded some of these construction contracts within the park. What can you tell us about this? Yeah, so this is a big part of the story and something a lot of people are focusing on, which is this construction company, Barnard Construction, is owned and operated by a guy who gave over a million dollars to the Trump campaign in 2024 and then got awarded this$1.7 billion contract to bring construction of the border wall down to the Big Bend region. And obviously, for anybody who's paying attention, this looks like somebody who just bought a billion dollar grant from the president for a border wall that's unnecessary and unwanted in this part of the country.

25:37So one of the big things that we're trying to figure out now is what they're going to do with all that money. The CDP says, you know, we're not putting this border wall, this 30-foot tall border wall up in the park. But the roads and the pathways that they're constructing in the national park follow the exact same line on the original map that they released showing where the 30-foot steel bollard walls were going to be. So I want to take the government at its word, but a lot of people down in this area are obviously skeptical that this is just going to be a road or just going to be some four to six foot tall vehicle barriers.

26:13A lot of people think they're going to clear this land and then eventually this wall is going to come in. And, you know, it just looks like a cash grab by these contractors who are just taking a bunch of federal money, our tax dollars, to go destroy a national park and then destroy this region outside the park, which it should be said in the lower 48 is the most pristine, untouched part of the United States. It is literally the Wild West, four to five hours from the closest airport. You can drive on roads for two hours without seeing a single person. It is a treasure of, you know, America's pastime and especially of Texas.

26:49And it's why so many tourists go there every year to just kind of escape and go off the grid. And now it's at risk of becoming, you know, part of the big security state. Right. And I want to underscore this is not, you know, some liberal outcry. The governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, gave a press conference yesterday saying there will be no border barrier built on Big Bend National Park. It appears like what you're talking about, family members, West Texas ranchers and others. Hardcore Republicans in R-plus-40 districts are the people who are pushing heavily against this. We do have the video of the CBP commissioner talking about the pause.

27:26Let's go ahead and take a listen, guys. We'll get your reaction, Isaac. I just landed in Texas, headed to Big Bend National Park. Last night, I put a pause on all activity in that park as far as construction goes until I can get down there and do a personal evaluation, talk to some stakeholders, talk to local law enforcement in that area, and more to follow this week. So the pause, obviously, this was from – I don't know. You tell me. What do you think that the eventual outcome was? It seems to me that the governor and much of the Texas Agriculture Commissioner, many of these other officials, seem to be the ones who really pressured the Trump administration on this.

28:04Yeah, Governor Abbott is taking credit for Rodney Scott, the CBP commissioner, heading down to Big Ben and pausing construction. He said that he had a conversation with him over the weekend and that he believes this is a direct consequence of that conversation. He said that publicly. So I have no reason to doubt that story. I mean, the interesting parts of that video are, A, the CBP commissioner conceding that construction is happening in Big Bend. We all know this because, as you showed, there's videos and photos of bulldozers and backhoes running across the Big Bend National Park ground. But it's worth saying the CBP for the last couple of weeks has denied in court and in their public statements that any construction was underway.

28:43They were saying that they were surveying and assessing the land and hadn't actually broken ground yet, despite the videos going viral online. So I think it's notable that he acknowledged the construction was real and that he's pausing it. The other thing I'll just say is there is a protest for all of this, for this kind of thing, you know, in national parks and outside national parks, which is, you know, as much as I sometimes loathe government regulation, there are things like environmental reviews. There are stakeholders who have meetings. They get to meet with the CBP. Business owners say, look, we need this access point on the river or this piece of private property has this value to so-and-so economy.

29:20They didn't do any of that. They waived all the environmental laws. They waived all the processes that are normal in this situation. And they just started building. And that's why the outcry has been so crazy. I mean, people on the border want border security. They just want it to be done in a way that's smart. And as you mentioned, we have MAGA Sheriff Thaddeus Cleveland who, I mean, his Twitter feed is literally him posting pictures of migrants he's capturing in the desert. And he's on CNN. He's going on national news. He's posting on Twitter about how stupid the border wall in the Big Bend region is because you don't need it.

29:53What you need is technology to be notified that somebody has crossed the border, a movement, heat sensors, those sorts of things. If you bring border wall stuff out there, you're just going to destroy the landscape and build a bunch of roads, by the way, that the cartel and migrants can then use to escape into the United States, which is one of the crazy ironies of this whole story. Just put up some flock cameras. I don't tell you the truth. Don't point it at us. Point it that way. Unironically. Well, last question for you. I saw something about us seeding hundreds of thousands of acres to Mexico as part of this project.

30:26What is going on there? Yeah, so the story there is pretty simple. All across the Rio Grande, which is the most precious water source in West Texas, there are private properties that abut the river that are cattle ranchers. They're river guides like my family. They're outfitters who take people on these off-road journeys or horseback riding or whatever. The map of the wall is right now placed oftentimes hundreds of yards, if not quarter, half a mile in from the river on the Texas side. So you can't just put a wall in the middle of the Rio Grande River. It floods. The construction would be impossible.

31:04So they have to put the wall on the American side. And what that means effectively is that they're cutting Americans off from this critical water source. They're cutting Texans off from this critical water source, and they're putting a bunch of American Texan land on the other side of the border wall. And so what I did through an assessment of the map and putting it into Claude, one of the very few positive use cases I've found with AI, by the way, is figuring out how many acres of land is actually going to end up on the other side of the 30-foot steel bollard wall, according to the DHS maps. And it's about 280 ,000 acres of Texas land that's going to be on the opposite side of that wall.

31:42And once the walls are built, the access points are controlled entirely by the federal government, by DHS. We've had stories in the past of people who get key codes to get into the river, to get through the wall. There's a gate there. And then they become a target, not just of the cartel, but of locals because they're the person with the key code and the access. creates all these crazy dynamics and scary things for these people who own this land privately that are facing eminent domain threats to have their land taken from the federal government. So, you know, it's not a sovereignty. We're still going to control the 280 ,000 acres of land on the other side of the border wall, but private U.S.

32:21citizens are going to lose access to it. And to me, that is just an insane thing to do in this moment is to give away 300 ,000 acres of precious American land to Mexico, which I think is what the administration is doing. Yeah. Isaac, you've been at the forefront. Matthew McConaughey, where are you, man? You're all things Texas. You got nothing to say? I gotta say, there's a lot of ride or die Texas brand people who have not spoken up yet. I'm just saying, you know. We've got our eyes on you. Yeah, there's no doubt about it. You're sipping beers with Shane Gillis at some bullshit soccer game. You don't have shit to say about Big Ben.

32:56Get the fuck out of here, man. I don't wanna see you down. I don't wanna see you in Longhorn's gear come college football season, unless you're going to speak up for the land. This angle of the story really didn't occur to me. Matthew McConaughey, silence. No, Crystal, this is a big, this is a big deal down in Texas. All right. Yeah, big time. The stars at night. Thank you very much, Isaac. We appreciate you, man. Thanks for having me, man. Apple Vacations, where your story starts. The Summer Savings Event is here at Apple Vacations. It's the perfect time to bring everyone together for the getaway you've been dreaming about.

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35:28Very excited now to be joined by Jared Cooney Horvath. He is the author of The Digital Delusion, a tremendously influential book, How Classroom Technology Harms Our Kids Learning and How to Help Them Thrive Again. Again, he is a neuroscientist and has extensively studied this issue, and I'm excited to talk to him. Jared, thank you so much for joining us. Appreciate it. Thank you for having me on. So, Jared, you have been, again, one of the leaders in this movement to remove technology from the classroom. We have seen examples of this pervade, both from K through 12 all the way up to college. F2, guys, just the latest example of something we're seeing.

36:05College kids are using AI agents to take entire online classes for them. logging themselves directly into course management software. So they get the grade, but they're not actually doing the work. We see, you know, cascading in different types of these effects as technology has entered the classroom. So big picture, why'd you decide to write this book? What data, what inspired you? Yeah, my background is just in human learning. How do humans learn? So I've worked with schools for 15 years on just, if this is what learning is, what does that mean for teaching? What does that mean for students studying and parents?

36:37And it was really around COVID. We've known for a long time that digital tech wasn't great for learning, but it was always somewhat peripheral until COVID hit. Everyone went digital, rightly so. You had to do something. But when COVID ended, no one ripped that Band-Aid off. Everyone stayed heavy digital and kept pushing forward. And all we've seen is literacy, numeracy scores really just continue to drop lower and lower. So that's why I figured now is the time to just put the data out there and say, look, we know that tech isn't great for learning. We know why tech isn't good for learning. Maybe we make different decisions in schools now.

37:10So let's put F3 up on the screen. This is some of the latest data about the way U.S. test scores in most states in the union have been declining, why U.S. test scores are in a generation-long decline. And there's only a handful of states like Mississippi, Hawaii, maybe one more that have bucked this trend over the past decade and a half. You're pointing to the advent of ed tech in the classroom. How do you separate that, though, from there's a lot that's happened over that time period. We had a reduction in the no child left behind standards. We've had the introduction of personal smartphone use outside of the classroom.

37:47So kids are on their screens in an unstructured way outside of school. So how do you look at all you, of course, had COVID and you pointed to the more significant learning loss that occurred during that time period. So how do you look at all of those things that happen and pinpoint in classroom ed tech as the single most significant factor here? Well, this is in to be fair, everything you've just said completely matters for emotional development, for social development. When we just focus on cognition, I think an important thing to remember is we're not stuck in the U.S. We've got data from over 90 countries now over the last about 25 years from international exams, from their own country's testing regimes.

38:28And what you can see is in each country, as digital technology moves from a peripheral to a central feature in education, that's when their scores will start to go down. So it's not tacked to any one year. It's unique to when schools and in the U.S. as well, when those states adopt digital technology. We can also then go back. Since 1962, we've been doing academic research, which is causative, directly linking digital tech and learning and showing that when a screen enters learning, learning compared to, say, analog methods tends to go down. And then you can also, with COVID, you can start to see, do what we call regression analyses, where you can take the hit of COVID, remove that from data sets and say, is there anything left remaining?

39:11Take SES out of the equation. Take non-classroom tech use. Be very specific about where you're using. Use statistics. And we still find the same thing. But I always say, look, the data is one thing, and that's very much in our favor. But it's the mechanisms. Once you get down to biology, we have better explanations for why tech doesn't work than anyone else does. And that seems to be kind of the ceiling factors. We can kind of explain why it's happening. And no one else can really do that as well as we can. Can you go into that? So, like, I think I in particular, so I'm 34. So when I was coming through K through 12, that was really the height of every student gets a laptop, the interactive PowerPoint.

39:52This was seen as a boon to the teacher in the classroom. I was telling you before the segment, my own mother's professor of early childhood education, a big proponent of educational technology, has some challenging questions she wants me to ask you. But just generally, what's wrong with that mechanism that you just talked about, about technology itself as a medium for learning? Why isn't it the hope that we thought, let's say, 20 years ago? So there's going to be dozens of different mechanisms, but let's just stick with kind of the reading one. A big aspect of human memory is spatial location.

40:28Where in space does something occur becomes a massive aspect of our memory for that thing and ultimately determines how we can access that information later. Now, think of a book. Until this book here burns into dust, every word has a clear, rigid, unchanging three-dimensional location. Until this book disappears, the word saddle will be 10 % of the way through, left page, top left-hand side. It ain't going nowhere. That will become part of the memory I form and will ultimately determine what I learned from it. So this is why if you're an avid reader of books, you know when you finish a book, you might not know verbatim everything you read, but you will know where in the book everything occurred.

41:04Like if there's a quote you're looking for, you can almost flip right to it. Now take that same thing to a screen. All of a sudden the word saddle is going to start at the bottom of the screen, pull through the middle, disappear out the top. There is no three-dimensional location. So an entire aspect of human memory gets dumped. So this is why when people read from a screen at about the four or five minute mark, the brain will send you a signal saying, I'm not getting this. Like, I don't know where any of this belongs. And we just start skimming. Rather than actually reading, we just start looking for keywords.

41:32Off we go. So this is one of those easy mechanisms where we can say, if you have the exact same thing on a piece of paper versus a screen, people will remember more, comprehend better from the piece of paper than the screen just by the way biology and memory works. Super interesting. So let me get you to respond to one of the critiques I read. This is from Chalkbeat. We can put this up on the screen. So they were talking about the way you analyzed the impact of ed tech specifically. And the writer says that the overall impact of ed tech in the studies that you cite is actually positive. Horvath says the effect is too small to justify the use of tech because it's smaller than the effect of typical classroom instruction.

42:15Taking that into account turns the ed tech results negative. He says this is a key methodological decision on which your conclusion rests. But according to Elizabeth Tipton, who's a Northwestern University statistician, counts herself as an ed tech skeptic. She says this is not the right approach. Your benchmark, she says, is wildly unrealistic and carefully designed studies in which two groups are both receiving some sort of instruction. Most effects are quite small. In that context, an effect above zero would be encouraging. So my understanding of this critique is basically when you just look at the impact of ed tech without comparing it to what would be happening if you weren't using the ed tech, the impact is either negative or somewhat positive.

42:57And so it's your choice to say, OK, but instead of the ed tech, if we were doing this other instructional method, that the learning gains would be more. That leads to the result. And again, this statistician is saying that this is not the right approach to do the study. So what is your response to that critique? I mean, it's there are multiple ways to run statistics and I hear everyone. But the point we're trying to make is every educational study. Oh, so there's a man named John Hattie down in Australia who's looked at over 350 ,000 studies in education. Over 95 percent of them have a positive effect.

43:32Basically, his argument is everything works. And this is why, because learning is biological. If you change your hat, a kid will learn. If you sing a song, a kid will learn. If you put a kid in a closet for a day, take them out, they will come out cognitively more developed than when they went in because biologically you can't stop it. So the argument from that side of the equation is always we cannot use nothing as a baseline in education. Otherwise, everything goes. So you have to have some sort of different baseline in our field to figure out what's better than average. And in his argument, and if you look at any statistician, that value is going to sit somewhere between 0.4 and 0.5.

44:10Now, that number doesn't have to mean anything to anyone. Just know that ed tech really undershoots that value. Whereas things like reading from a book, having a discussion with a teacher, doing a pair and share with your peers, those have values way above that. So you can start to see when we compare different strategies, yeah, some are going to be far better than others. But if you can go down to a study where you are comparing one tool to something without that tool in an equivalent condition, you hit what's called a randomized control trial. Now, those are really, really easy to do. Not easy, but doable in fields like medicine, in fields like physics.

44:46They are almost impossible to do in social-level fields like school. So imagine you give one school a bunch of laptops and you don't give another school a bunch of laptops. then you can say laptops were better or worse than no laptops right wrong because now we got to worry about what were the pedagogies each school was using right were these teachers asking kids to recall and these weren't were these teachers giving homework and these weren't there are so many competing variables that when you want to look at the social level you have to use these higher level values and use more averaging because we just can't drill down far enough to the specific random control trial mechanism right and i know it sounds like like I'm skirting the issue, but it's not.

45:28It's just a different form of analysis. No, totally. And social sciences require one more so than the other. Right. One of the challenges I saw, Jared, is he writes, across the West, IQ scores began to fall, even as time spent in school kept rising. The answer lies in the meteoric rise of educational technology. But kind of to come back to Crystal's original point, which is really impossible to ignore, how do we separate out the technology from the digital milieu that we swim in, As in, you know, these children, especially 2012 onward, are inundated with screen time at home, either from television, on the iPhone, and then you add educational technology onto that.

46:09Why is that not a modest effect and a significant effect? Because to my eye, what's happening in the home and in the rest of the world and all of that general screen time, which we know reduces general IQ, should actually be more of a significant factor. Or please challenge my general line of questioning. No, and it absolutely is. For general level IQ, it's going to be very difficult to parse things out. But we're lucky in school we can do these specific measures where we can flat out ask kids, how often do you use tech at home? How often do you use tech for these purposes at home? And we can also ask them, how often do you use tech in schools?

46:44How often do you use tech for these purposes in schools? So in a lot of our data sets, or international ones anyway, we can differentiate between those two modes. Again, account for one and say what's left. And probably the biggest example of that would be East Asian countries is everyone knows East Asian countries are highly technological. Their economies are based on technology. Their kids are spending more time on tech for gaming purposes than anywhere else. Believe it or not, those are or pre-COVID were the least tech-using countries in the world when it came to school. Singapore, Japan, China, Korea, these people were not using tech in schools.

47:22They said use tech outside of the classroom. But when you're in a classroom, we're going with analog methods that we know work. And it's no surprise that up until COVID, they had always peaked out on literacy, numeracy, science scores. They were always beating everyone else. even though their kids used more tech in the real world than kids say in the US. That's fascinating. They used less tech in school and they still saw better cognitive growth than we did. Part of where I get hung up on some of this as a parent in particular is, understandably, we tend to talk about just tech as a broad bucket or just screen time as a broad bucket where obviously like when my kid is just mindlessly scrolling YouTube shorts, that is a really terrible brain rotting thing.

48:04Whereas to be honest, I think there's an argument that some of the video games that they play that require a lot of like language and social interaction and problem solving, etc., which is what a lot of the East Asian screen time, you know, is centered around. I'm not sure that that's bad for them in terms of brain development, at least in some level of reasonable moderation. So how do you think about, like, you know, the quality of screen? Do you have a hierarchy of which types of device time are better or worse for kids developing minds? Yeah, so again, I won't focus on out of school. So anytime you use a screen for entertainment, let it rip.

48:43Go for it. I'm just talking about straight learning. So in our context, when we're talking about digital technology and learning, It's any internet connected student facing device that is going to lead them down a path of non-learning. But if you twisted my arm on the other stuff, you're right. I mean something like video game where you can hear another person's voice. And I didn't know this until recently, but that's what kids are doing. They have headsets on and they're actually talking to other human beings. If you can hear another person's voice and you're actually communicating with them, that's fine.

49:15I mean, it's not great, but I mean, go to town with it. Yeah. It's versus like texting. So we can do this kind of hierarchy, right, where if a group of human beings are hanging out together, we can measure the type of chemicals that are being released to demonstrate what kind of social bonding they're showing. And as you'd expect, when they're hanging out together, you get a lot of these social bonding chemicals. When kids are interacting via text, you get none of those social bonding chemicals, which is a good sign that text-based communication isn't recognized as actual social interaction biologically.

49:48Wow. It's more recognized as isolating and threatening, which is one of the reasons why kids who use a lot of texting-based tech like social media and stuff usually have lower scores on sense of belonging, those things. But if you can hear someone's voice – so like when we were growing up, we used to call each other all the time. You'd have that long cord on the phone. you'd go sneak into the pantry. We didn't know it, but when you hear somebody's voice, you can get the same type of chemicals you get from social interaction. They're not as strong, but they're definitely there. They're not absent like texting.

50:17So I'd say if you had to do a hierarchy, I'd say, look, if you're going to play video games, sit on the couch next to the person like we used to do N64, you're going to get the best benefit. Next to that, as long as you can hear people and you're talking to them, that's going to be next down the line. And then if you're just gaming by yourself quietly, that might be third down the line. But you're right, it's kind of how we're using them. Yeah, and there's also just like a modern reality of, so my son's in middle school and, you know, he's a gamer and this is what he and his friends do. You know, if I was to tell him like no video games, that would cut him off from a lot of his social life that he has now because this is just sort of the reality of the world that we live in.

50:54So reflect on that, but also, you know, how do you, and I know you focus more on text deployment in school specifically, but you've also spoken and thought some about how parents should approach technology in their home as well. How do you approach that conversation without putting the entire burden on parents and shaming them at a time when, look, everybody's doing their best and we're up against these like multi-billion dollar companies that spend a lot of money trying to make their tech addictive and make sure that your kids are glued to the screen? Yeah. And that's it's one of the hardest things we have to face is it's the cigarette problem.

51:34All again, is we've we're giving something to our kids that we know is dangerous. I don't think there's a parent out there that's thinking, you know what? My kid needs more tech. We all kind of know that as soon as they're done with tech, we're going to have this half hour window where they're just crazy. They're going to have to get off of that. But you're right. It's how they built their social life. We basically lost that battle. So what I tend to say to families, when it comes to learning, anything that has to do with learning, if it's homework, if it's a reading, if your kid has to do a worksheet, print it out.

52:05Buy a printer. Do everything learning-based analog. The first thing we have to do is separate the screen from learning. Kids view the screen as an entertainment medium. And rightly so. That is what they do. They spend over 2 ,500 hours every single year using this machine to rapidly switch between media content. When we now say now use the same exact tool to learn, which requires sustained focus, they can't do it. Most of them only make it about six minutes before they go right back to, well, I'm just going to open this tab. I'll check this out. So anytime it comes to learning in your house, make it analog.

52:39Buy a printer, get it out. That's very doable. Beyond that. Print it out is a very doable strategy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I would say beyond that to just start with a tech audit and totally nonjudgmental for all the entertainment based tech. Just spend one or two weeks with you and your kid. They do it. You do it. How often do you use it? What are you using it for? And as a parent, does my kids see me use it? What message is that sending? Just get a sense of the lay of the land. See what's going on and then make small changes as you see fit. If you try and change everything at once, it's always going to bomb.

53:09It's like trying to change a workout regime in one minute. Doesn't work. Right. Just change one thing. Say maybe next week, let's see if we can't shoot for an evening where the family watches a movie together instead of does text, something like that. And then you just build your own values. That's my last question, Jared. One of the things I love about America, if you live in a locality, you can actually have immense impact in your school system. Like Crystal was telling you, parents banded together. They're like, hey, we want our kids off machines. The school board actually did it. So my daughter is going to be in school in a few years.

53:38I'm going to start going to the school board meetings. What should I start demanding of my school board around this conversation about technology? What kind of guidelines? If you were to design it from scratch, what should I push for? Go in first. Get a coalition. One parent talking is always going to be viewed as a nuisance. Ten parents talking, now we're going to start paying attention at schools. That just seems to be how it is. Don't go on the attack. Go with a level of curiosity. If you go there saying you're doing it wrong, they're going to push back. Nothing happens. Say, look, do you guys know how much and what type of tech is being used in schools?

54:11And what you'll find is 90 % of the time, the answer is no. No one tracks this data. So say, cool, let's just do a tech audit. For the next month, can you just track what programs are kids using, at what year level, and for how long? And maybe we can even just, if they have their own iPads that they've been given, we can just plug in a program that'll do that for us. Then we can say, okay, where's the data? So once we know where kids are using it and they say maybe they use this program but not that one, we can say, okay, do we have data that that is an effective way of learning? And what you'll see is 99 % of edtech tools have no data with them.

54:47Edtech was the one field that was never regulated at any level. Your toaster has gone through more clearances than the programs we put in front of our kids tomorrow at school. So we can just say, cool, what's the data? and then we can make it clear that, okay, if there is no data, then either we've got to collect it, in which case don't give it to every kid, do a small experiment, or B, we wait till they collect the data and prove it to us. If the focus of school is learning, then at the end of the day, every decision we make has to hinge on, does this improve learning? And if there is no evidence that it is doing that, and if there is evidence that it's harming on the other side, then by all means, we're in a good spot to say maybe we pull that back, divest a bit until we have better data to say this is something for our kids.

55:30I think it's a very smart approach that you just laid out. I hope everybody goes and buys the book, engages with the work. Thank you very much, Jared. We really appreciate your time. Thank you, Jared. Oh, thank you both. Thank you guys so much for watching. I hope you enjoyed it. AI block, it just went too long today. We were talking with Jared quite a bit. So Crystal and Emily will be doing that tomorrow. So you get a special treat then. And we're about to do the AMA. So we'll see you on a bit.

56:07Apple Vacations

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57:05Thousands have already made the switch. Why not you? Try Odoo for free at odoo.com. That's odoo.com. Some people use ChatGPT to answer questions. Others use it to get real work done. With ChatGPT work, you bring the goal, plus real inputs like briefs, notes, files, feedback, data, and project plans. It can help turn them into an analysis, tracker, deck outline, prototype, or workflow you can review and keep shaping. You stay in control, giving direction and choosing the final output. Put ChatGPT to work on your most ambitious ideas and projects. Get started at ChatGPT.com by selecting Work Mode.

57:43Available on Plus and Pro plans. This is an iHeart Podcast. Guaranteed human.