8/21/26: Bessent NO IDEA Why Oil Going Up, Wild Trump Aide Natalie Harp, Van Jones Israel Propaganda, Fishback Bilzerian FL Fallout

23:39And it's a good thing.

23:40Saagar Enjeti:But other doctors have pushed back on saying that those drugs, the drugs that helped her were actually already available, perhaps. But she has connected it to his right to try. Yeah, I didn't see that. That may be true. She does. No, but you're right. She does. She is the one who connects it directly to that. Her brother went on, I think, CNN with Aaron Burnett and said that's exactly what it is. she attributes that to Trump. And these rumors about her had been circulating for a while because she is really close to the president. And we'd heard previously about notes that had found their way, I think, into the presidential bedroom.

24:16And so it had been under the surface. But then because of the Washington Post report on leaving Air Force One, it exploded into a major story this week. So with all of that said, Griffin, this little explanation of who Natalie Harp is, She was previously a One American News Network anchor, ended up working in the White House, has been with Trump ever since. Let's roll it. Let's hear from her own words for a second. We can't talk about winning back the House and Senate in 2022 and the White House in 2024 if we don't act on the fact that we actually did win the White House and the Senate in 2020.

24:52We shouldn't be afraid to say that because it's true. We the people know America as we know it could be ending in the next two or four years. Oh, wow. Which is exactly what President Trump is warning of. They think if they can get President Trump, they can get the 75 million people to shut up and stand down. And as President Trump said at CPAC yesterday, each of us, if we haven't already, have a decision to make. Not in 2022 with the ballot box, but right here and right now to choose a side. And by the way, sidelines don't count.

25:25Saagar Enjeti:Sidelines do not count. Mack, what do you make of this? Can I just make a little quip here? It's like the joke news segment that 30 Rock would run. You know what I mean? It's like if you did a 30 Rock cutaway, making fun of segments like this, it watches exactly like that. OAN definitely always reached to me as the thing that's on TV in the movie. It's the fake news show in the movie. But Mack, what are we to make of this? Is how they first became so connected over the stop the steal thing. I mean, the cancer thing that you said makes a lot more sense to me because, and I was talking to Griffin earlier about this, like she really does come across in the letters that she's put out in the behavior of chasing him down the golf course.

26:11Like she wrote a whole letter apologizing for her behavior. Like, I'm so sorry if I embarrassed you or whatever. It really is like she's in a cult and Trump is just her personal savior. So it does like track on the cancer thing if she credits him with like saving her life or whatever. But it's just bizarre, man. Like this is some of the strangest stuff I've ever seen. Because even you see it in like the cabinet meetings, right? Like everybody understands that Trump kind of wants everybody to like jerk him off in these cabinet meetings. And they go around the table and everybody like praises him in their own little way.

26:44Marco Rubio, Pete Hexeth, you're the greatest president ever. You've stopped 800 wars, whatever else. But this is like a true believer. Like I don't think necessarily that Marco Rubio believes it when he's sucking up to Trump. This is somebody who was like fully drank the Kool-Aid. This is my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ here. Yeah. Well, Griffin, do we have the letters? Because the Daily Beast says, yeah, pull these up so people can see exactly what Max is talking about.

27:08Saagar Enjeti:And Emily, do you have like some sultry piano or maybe like a saxophone you could play while I read this? All right. You could also just sing. This is the letter. Dear Mr. President, I'm sorry. I thought I was the only one left behind last night and had no idea Margo's car was also pulled over and sent back to the airport. Since I was alone in the van outside customs without my passport, I panicked and should have just called Secret Service instead of you. I also am sorry if I was an embarrassment walking the course in Scotland. The first day I was told there were no carts and people walked, which is why I walked.

27:42Saagar Enjeti:The second day I was specifically asked by, I forgot who his name was, but one of the main people who worked there, if I could continue walking and tell any other girls who would head out there to do the same to spare the course any more carts. If there's anything else I've done to cause you trouble, please forgive me. I know that some people have said I haven't been texting them back, and there have been some international cell issues. John was having technical issues on the plane too. I want things to always be right between us. I also know that I've been distracted all week, forgetting to eat throughout the days and even forgetting to sleep, and only catching a couple hours at a time.

28:18Saagar Enjeti:I haven't been myself, dwelling on the past and the pain of losing my dad. And I started letting the remarks of people who haven't bothered me before get to me, not because I care what others think, but because I see myself being lowered in your eyes and good opinion. That is the fear, you see, because I never want to bring you anything but joy. I'm sorry I lost my focus. You are all that matters to me. I don't want to ever let you down. Thank you for being my guardian and protector in this life. That's what I wanted to use this card for. When you saw me at the cash register and once again did what you didn't have to do and gifted me with the mementos of this trip of a lifetime, a coming of age.

28:59Saagar Enjeti:I will return a better person. I have to sign off now as the cars are leaving. See you soon with all my heart. Natalie. And did you notice she uses caps? I mean, the viewers might not be able to see this, but she uses capitalizations in a Trumpian style. Yeah, that's interesting. Like she's aping him. And I think this reminds me a lot of something that I found. I shouldn't probably say this, but I found this in Mac's stuff directed to Sagar. It reminds me of how Mac writes to Sagar. That's true. That's exactly. So those were published by the - My guardian, my protector in this life. Yes, capital P protector.

29:38Saagar Enjeti:character uh but it reminds me of that woman that was dating the like a basketball like billionaire guy who's like i'm his little rabbit remember that clip i'm his little bunny not important i i listen griffin i know you're really big into sports but yeah just got his dodgers hat on well so let's get into the sourcing a little bit here because these were given to michael wolf and Michael Wolff's reporting ranges from insane, like not true to totally true. He's kind of like an establishment TMZ. Worse. He admits to like completely making things up basically that sometimes he dramatizes. Yeah. And that's if you're purporting to be a journalist, that means that you're often writing fiction.

30:24So anyway, all this to say, this is an actual copy of a letter and Jonathan Swan and Maggie Haberman in their book reported on some of these letters as well and said that they were being left in Trump's personal spaces. So from conversations that I have had about all of this, everybody thinks this is weird. Yeah, everybody circled the wagons around Natalie Harp this week and defended her vociferously. Nobody knows, honestly, nobody knows what's really happening if it's more than just this emotional fawning from Natalie Harp, which I think is perfectly plausible. Like top aides do get access to the living space at the White House because they're working as soon as the president gets up and probably as the president's going to bed.

31:08So it's not unheard of that staff would be in the residence. And that could be quote unquote personal spaces. And it could totally be a one way love affair, right? Like Trump is, he prizes loyalty. Here you have somebody who's a little weird and has this deep emotional connection to him, credits him with saving her life and knows that he loves loyalty and loves people who fawn all over him and plays to that and has perfectly reasonable access to the residents. Or it could be not that, which is the implication. And I honestly have no idea. I don't think that people who are in like Trump circles don't have any idea.

31:47Saagar Enjeti:There's no way that there is a full-blown sexual interaction happening, which some are alleging. I mean, there's no way. I doubt it. There's no way. I think it's a little bit more like a nurse caretaker situation than a sexual. I mean, there's just no way that Trump at his current shape and age can even physically perform. Yeah. I mean, he's a shape that's never been invented before. Like, I just don't see there would need to be like a nuclear reactor amount of blue chew to make that happen. So I think it's something a little bit sadder. I think it's nuclear. Well, what's even sad. The saddest part about this is that there's like a zero percent chance Trump read that letter in the first place.

32:28Right. Like there's no shot. Because somehow it got to Michael Wolff, which tells me that someone else intercepted it and was leaking it to the press.

32:38Saagar Enjeti:Michael Wolff has also reported that Melania was not seen on the 2024 campaign race with Trump because she did not like Natalie's proximity. Melania did actually come out yesterday to give a public speech at the White House for the first time. Maybe she's feeling some of the heat from this story. But there was some defenders of Natalie and people who were very aghast at John Ossoff's cruel, catty remarks. And, of course, Mac, want your reaction to this. Our favorite CNN panelist, Scott Jennings, who was challenged on his attacks on Ossoff. Let's all take a listen to that.

33:23Van Jones:Go ahead and just play it because there's such a long history of this. trump punching down insulting women let's just play i'm never complaining about it you've called women you don't like fat pigs dogs sloth and disgusting animals but what we want to do is to replenish such a nasty trust fund you are the worst reporter no one to see cnn has no ratings because of people like you you know she's a young woman I don't think I've ever seen you smile. I've known you for 10 years. I don't think I've ever seen a smile. You know what? Is there something incriminating in the wild? Quiet, quiet.

34:08Van Jones:Quiet, Peggy. I mean, Scott, Dan's question was pretty straightforward. If you're going to be outraged over traveling on a plane with Natalie, are you going to be outraged over all those things? I do not believe in demeaning women in any way, number one. Number two. So did the president demean women and was that unacceptable? The issue I have with this is. Are you outraged or not about that? The issue I have with this is. Not answering the question. Natalie Harp is not a public figure. She has no ability. You are not answering the question. You are a Democrat. You are avoiding the question again, Scott.

34:52You continuously distracted.

34:55Saagar Enjeti:All right. Well, that's the incredible moderation at CNN where you can't hear a single thing. Mac, is Natalie Harp a private person? I'm so confused by that. Like, what do you mean? She's a top aide. She's constantly making public appearances with him. In what way is she? And she can't defend herself. It's insane. I mean, the hypocrisy angle of it, obviously, it's obvious. You don't even really need to make that point. Scott isn't going to, you know, admit any of that at the end of the day. I guess I'm just sort of like I watched the John Ossoff clip. And if anything, I'm like, he could have gone way harder.

35:29Like, what is the outrage meter for Republicans getting upset about this? Because like what was actually offensive about what he said? It was like kind of a vague implication of like maybe there's something going on there. But like, OK, Trump says worse on an average Tuesday. What are we talking about? I think so the only thing I would disagree with on that like it's it's glaringly hypocritical from Scott Jennings and laughable all of that. I think it might be a tiny problem for Ossoff in the same way that some of this was a problem for Biden. Not a massive problem. But there's a I guess a broader issue if you are campaigning and this is where actually some of the dark woke gets it right.

36:10if you're campaigning on restoring uh american civility and norms and then so it's not so much like everyone has low expectations i think at this point of the people who defend trump but ossoff if you're trying to like take the when they go low we go high route and go above what you say are the bad standards and expectations and then you do stuff like this it makes people be like oh come on man like which one is it like we either have to go gloves off or you have to like you you can't have it both ways and i think that's where just politically not morally but politically i think that's a little bit of an issue like you have to choose a lane like you either have to go full uh gloves off or like who's a good example of somebody abdul el saeed is probably a good example of that yeah he's a good example he's a little sassy which that's what i Which side?

37:04Of gloves off. Of dark woke. I think he's sort of dark woke, yeah, at this point. Right. Yeah, you got to go one way or the other. I get your point, Emily, but I also think there's almost no appetite for the, you know, they go low, we go high attitude anymore with the Democratic voter base. Like, at this point, it's, you know, everybody's saying, fuck it, you know, whatever. We've had eight years of a Trump presidency, term one, term two. Like, there are no standards anymore. And even, you know, to the return to civility, I don't, it's not something that I personally care about. But like, even if you are quote unquote dark woke or you're a little bit edgy or you're gloves off from like a Democratic politician perspective, that's still going to be like infinitely more civility based than what we're getting from the Trump administration.

37:50Like it's almost unfathomable to think of a Democratic version of Donald Trump that is as brash and, you know, upfront about just being kind of an asshole all the time. Like, I can't really make a comparison on the left to any major political figure like that. Yeah. There's nobody that will ever be like Donald Trump. Like, there's just no comparison. Nobody who will be on a debate stage being like, only Rosie O'Donnell. It's just never going to happen. So, yeah, it's a question of how post-Trump Republicans handle that. But I do think Ossoff, like when he was going viral, maybe this isn't his fault.

38:28Maybe he's not trying that. Well, I don't know. I think he's pretty clearly doing a gentle Obama impression. Just like we see Josh Shapiro and those sorts. And that's where at home. Well, and you can see the, you can see all the camera crews with him. He brings like a professional camera crew with him to get all these different angles at every single one of these rallies.

38:44Saagar Enjeti:It's the lower angle looking up. That's, that's, that's the Ossoff shot or whatever. He's documentarian. And he's on that, he's on that tee. So he's gotten himself all like jacked over the last couple of years. Like He's making a run for it. I guess the question for both of you, and maybe Mac in particular, who is a fan of the more Kyle Kalinske, dark, woke angle, is, you know, Trump is so crazy. Is the main Dem electorate going to just want someone that's exceedingly normal now? Go back to normal. Or do they want someone like Abdul, who is going to be Trumpian, but for the things that the left likes?

39:20Saagar Enjeti:And I guess that is the main question for the Dem electorate. Well, I mean, that's, you know, I don't want to make this sort of like my wish casting, but I think right now the energy is more in the Abdul lane. I think this is why you're seeing sort of a left insurgency, all these DSA candidates that are winning. And, you know, you can see candidates that are outspent, you know, 10 to 1, 20 to 1 in some cases. The media is sort of, you know, stacked against them. The establishment is stacked against them. And they're still winning some of these races or at least cutting it, you know, extremely close.

39:50So the energy right now is definitely in the dark, woke camp. The question then is the 2028 Democratic presidential primary rolls around are and I've seen this from, you know, even some of my like family and friends who are sort of more like standard liberals or whatever, progressive libs maybe. and I do like it Ossoff makes me a little bit afraid because I hear them and they're like oh you know he's he's good looking he's very well spoken like he has this calming effect like I could see somebody like that being a real threat to the left and he's polling very high

40:21Saagar Enjeti:Mac just to push back on it like he continues to be putting up numbers in the polls and putting out some sort of liberal pheromones that right people really can't describe on a any specific policy level other than, oh, damn, this guy got on some testosterone. He got jacked up and he's looking good in these low angles. And, you know, I want to feel good about my politician again. And he's virile in a way that, you know, we had Biden before. So I don't know. That's true. No, it does. It concerns me. I hope the energy stays till 2028, but I'm not fully convinced. It was kind of a problem for Beto against Ted Cruz back in 2018 and that like he tried to be on the one hand Kennedy ask right was like Kennedy maxing and then on the other hand was trying to go gloves off against Trump and you just I think you really do just have to pick a lane otherwise people sniff it out it depends on who you're running against like if it's a if you're up against a weak Republican candidate or crazy Republican whatever you can start or a super MAGA Republican candidate you can start pulling some of that off in a way that's helpful.

41:32But I don't know. I think the evolution is to just go fully gloves off. That seems to me where people are. But that is interesting, Mac, that like people, normies, you know, are watching this. And like, I kind of like that. I like the way things work. And you are going to, it's going to be the same ecosystem in 2028 with the establishment and the media. They're going to pull out the same arguments. Oh, you know, let's say Abdul runs. Oh, he's not electable. Like, you know, whatever. he sort of has this energy in the Democratic voter base, but he couldn't win in a general election. They're going to pull out the same arguments that they did in 2020 and in 2016.

42:06It's just going to come down to whether or not the voter base falls for that again.

42:12Saagar Enjeti:Wasn't Beto's Vanity Fair cover Born to Run? Wasn't that the tag on his cover? I would like to give that tag to Natalie Harp, her chasing after the golf carts. I think that would be a great tag for her. Born to Run, Miss Natalie. So that's so undignified.

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44:09Saagar Enjeti:Let's move on. Mac, I want you to react to this because, of course, one of our mainstays here on the show, Van Jones, is out with a new fact check and collab with one Noah Tishby about all of this disinformation online about Gaza and how the images are fake. And I will say this video was made in the year of our Lord, 2026, maybe a few years late. Let's explain who Noah Tishby is, by the way. Noah Tishby is a like official Israeli propagandist. She's like worked for Israeli PR and is ignoring my invites to come on the show. Let's take a listen. You're seeing right now did not happen. This also didn't happen.

44:56I'm here with Van Jones.

44:57Van Jones:We now have this world where when you see something on social media, you have to ask yourself the question, is this real? The people who want to divide, who want to distract, who want to turn people against each other, have super weapons to do so now. Because, you know, somebody looks at their phone they assume that what they're seeing is real. I think that's why we have to take a lot more seriously this information. There's a 24-hour, seven-day-a-week battle for the mind. It's the people who are on Twitch and TikTok and all these other platforms that are getting literally millions and millions of views.

45:29Van Jones:And if you care about facts, you're at a disadvantage. Even though the fringe media is terrible, you have legacy media that's also terrible and falling for nonsense. For instance, the picture that broke everybody's heart of the so-called starving baby turned out to not be a starving child. They cut out the full image that showed the sibling perfectly fine. That child had a genetic issue. It was not being starved by Israel. So when you have the mainstream media that is stalling for propaganda or promoting propaganda and won't apologize, and then you have this fringe media that's massively bigger, it requires a different approach to the information war.

46:06This is literally about democracies as we know them. We have to make sure that we verify everything that we see online and don't get hooked into this dopamine addiction that is going to damage us all. Thank you so much, man. Thank you.

46:19Saagar Enjeti:All right. One note before I get Mac's reaction. They're like, so we need to dispel all these rumors about starving children. Let's do an inspiring music track. Let's do something like a uplifting, climbing the mountain music track here. But so Mac, let's fact check the fact checkers here? What are they getting wrong here? Now, in terms of the specific story that they were talking about with the piece from the New York Times of the child who was starving, they're getting at that in the initial New York Times piece, they didn't report that the child also had other underlying conditions. I think specifically it was cerebral palsy in this specific case.

46:57But what that ignores is that, yeah, when there's a famine, when there's mass starvation or food shortages that are going on, it is going to be the most vulnerable people within society that suffer initially, that suffer the initial brunt of that famine. And that child in the New York Times piece was malnourished, right? And the data on this has been well reported on, well documented. There was malnourishment in Gaza. There was starvation in Gaza. Israel had an explicit policy of restricting aid from getting into Gaza from the beginning of the genocide. I mean, they openly declared, we're going to cut off the food, the fuel, the water, the electricity.

47:33It's an entire population that we're attempting to punish here. None of this is like a secret. But again, the purpose here in this whole piece from Van Jones is to get you to doubt everything, to mistrust everything. The only people that you can trust are the official lines from the IDF or from Benjamin Netanyahu or from the Trump administration or the Biden administration that was happening under him. You know, you can only trust these official sources. Also, we're talking about a guy like Van Jones. This is the same guy who was on Bill Maher making a joke about dead Gaza babies, right? And laughing about it gleefully.

48:08So, you know, to some extent, you know, I don't know if it's a money thing. I don't know if it's just like an ideological thing for him, but he is truly a psychopath when it comes to when it comes to this issue. Yeah. Griffin, do we have the ideological drift of Van Jones?

48:24Saagar Enjeti:Yeah, let's take a look back at 1993 Van Jones for a second here to see where the cycle path starts. Maybe it was always this way. Students can do that in 1960. Students can do that in 1970. Students can do that in 1985, 1986. In 1993, we have the United States government building a death camp, a concentration camp. Those black people who have done nothing wrong but get sick and want justice if all they've done wrong. If we can't close that death gap, if this generation cannot present another Japanese American internment in our lifetime, we should all get haircuts and go get regular jobs and give it up.

49:10Saagar Enjeti:We should all get haircuts, get regular jobs and give it up. So I guess that's what happened. He's being honest. Yeah, it's not a bad point. Um, he, this would have been around 2009, was singled out by Glenn Beck back in his Fox News days, early Tea Party days, because Obama had hired him, I believe, as a green job czar. And Van Jones's past radical activism came to the forefront, so much so that he lost that job in the Obama White House. And now he's landed at CNN, got a haircut, got a job to Griffin's point. And, you know, the frustrating thing about revisitation of that New York Times story is that nobody really disputes it was fair for the New York Times to update the story and say the little boy had cerebral palsy.

50:01I think everybody understands that's relevant information. And it just underlines the case Mack laid out, which is that where there are vulnerable populations with people suffering, those people can suffer even worse. They might sometimes bear the brunt. People who are disabled might sometimes or might always bear the brunt when there are food shortages. So that is, as a hill to die on, to create that as your centerpiece to make this case about propaganda, I think is really, really sick. It's just a really gross thing to do.

50:38Saagar Enjeti:And it's also, like I said at the beginning of this segment, it's crazy that this is a 2026 video. Because you could easily see something like this in November of 2023 where they could make that case. But if you were trying to actually do good PR for Israel now, it would be, oh, it's that damn BB Netanyahu that we got to get out of here and then everything will get fixed. Like, don't worry. Elections are coming soon. Yeah, Israel did some bad stuff and we all agree on that. And it's time to get rid of this government. That would be the effective Israeli PR move at this point, which is also rife with, you know, inaccuracies because the majority of the other political leaders in Israel share very similar strategies towards handling Gaza.

51:23Saagar Enjeti:So I always wonder, like, with Israel that has access to unlimited resources to create PR, why they choose these people like Noah Tishbe to do these things? Why do they pick these untalented, dead eyed people to add this liberal sheen with no facts and sort of just an underlying base of victimization? And you should just be on my side. And I think it's because, you know, they see themselves in people like Noah, like they can't fathom what good PR for Israel would be. They see themselves in these terrible actors. And so those are the people they continue to put out your Michael Rapoport's a lot of these disgusting Twitter accounts like who's that one guy in New York, Mac, that we always make fun of.

52:15Saagar Enjeti:Eyal Yacobi. Eyal Yacobi. They see themselves in these people, and they view these people as the heroes to push their movement. And it just goes to show how just muddy and confused they are about how the world sees them now. Well, to your point, Griffin, I think there is an element of it where for, I mean, the vast majority of the last however many decades here in the United States, Israel didn't really have to do much work in terms of, you know, propaganda to convince Americans to support them. It was always just sort of like the baseline, right? You said universal consensus within the upper echelons in Washington, D.C., you know, within Congress, within the media.

52:58It didn't become a central thing that a lot of Americans thought about until, you know, post-October 7th and this genocide in Gaza. And post-October 7th, so now you have this new reality where it's a live streamed genocide. We're getting countless thousands of images, videos that are on every, especially young people's social media feeds. Like, it's just so overwhelming that there is no talented propagandist who could overcome that. Like there's there's nothing to be done at this point except for the strategies that we've seen Israel use, which is censorship, right? Going after college students, trying to blacklist them, you know, sticking the police on them, as we saw under the Biden administration as well in these encampments.

53:40You know, so it's censorship. It's these new programs spending millions of dollars to influence chat GPT and how it responds to Israel and flooding the Internet with, you know, slop AI written, you know, Israeli propaganda pieces so that AI will pick up on that for its information ecosystem. Like it's strategies like this. And, you know, as we just saw from Van Jones, trying to get you to doubt everything that you see, because they they basically have nothing else that they that they can reach for at this point. There is no convincing case that can be genuinely made. That may be true, but it is still remarkable to me that they're doubling down as they see the numbers go down.

54:17Yeah. Like they're not changing one bit of the strategy. well another another aspect of it um and i think we've we've seen this in some of the recent races like with abdul el saeed is if you guys remember dropside news reported i think it was maybe a year ago or more at this point um that there was like an internal study that was done uh within israel where they were looking at what are the most effective ways that we could sort of convince people into a more pro-israel direction and the number one thing that they found was increasing Islamophobia, right? That was what they thought was the most effective strategy to sort of win people back to their side was to push Islamophobia to sort of overwhelm the Israel criticism.

54:56And I think we've, we have seen a massive, massive spike in Islamophobia against people like Abdul Said, or just generally in the United States with the Laura Loomer types and the Randy Fine types. You know, that's become significantly amplified over the last couple of years with the emergence some more Israel critical and Muslim candidates across the country.

55:17Saagar Enjeti:Yeah. And I think like not to give the Israeli PR more tips, but like, you know, I said, A, you guys should come out against Netanyahu and B, like they're not even doing any of the look, we're handing out aid in Gaza. Like we're doing like any of those like propaganda bits either. In fact, there's reporting that there's currently a water crisis happening in Gaza. People are struggling to find drinking water. They're having to choose whether to cook with it, drink with or bathe with it, and they can only choose one out of the three. So this suffering continues. They're still bombing tents on what seems like a weekly basis.

55:51Saagar Enjeti:And so, yeah, they don't have any video evidence to show that the situation is improving one bit. So we're kind of just frozen in place until these people are, I guess, laughed out of the room. But Van Jones is still in the room. Well, and to your point, one final thing on that, Griffin, the most effective Israeli propaganda right now is the fact that the media is no longer talking about it, right? There is no mainstream media coverage of, you know, the nearly daily attacks that are happening in Gaza. Israel is still bombing Gaza. They're still, you know, they blew up a medical facility just a couple of weeks ago.

56:27You didn't see that on CNN. You didn't see that on MSNOW or on Fox News or whatever else. The media has largely just dropped it as an issue, which I think has in some ways, in a dark way helped Israel because it's not such a central focus for a lot of people anymore. Yeah.

56:42Saagar Enjeti:All right. Well, that'll do it for Van Jones. Get a suit, get a real job. I think that's still my note for Van. He does sound like Sager.

56:54Saagar Enjeti:All right. Well, let's move on to my favorite state in the nation, Florida. Well, we wanted to bring you an update in a race that we've been tracking for more than a year. So we're joined once again by Aaron Baker, who actually decided to primary Randy Fine more than a year ago from the right. Aaron, welcome back. Appreciate you for being here. Always a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me back. Yeah, this was such an interesting race. And Ryan and I interviewed you about a year ago now, just about your decision to get into this race, because there was something very interesting happening on the right.

57:27And Florida became a place where not even just your district, but Florida, the entire state during this primary cycle became a place where some of this was getting hashed out in some responsible ways and some irresponsible ways. So let's start with your race, because I think you ended up at 13 and a half percent in the race between Randy Fine and Dan Bilzerian. It turned into a little bit of a circus errand. So just catch us up, remind viewers why you decided to primary Randy Fine from the right when you launched. The Iran war had not yet happened. So that was a major update. But what were you thinking when you got into the race and what was it like running as a Republican against Randy Fine?

58:07Well, I mean, I got into the race because I thought he was a genocidal maniac that needed to be taken out of our government. And I still believe that. And that's that's not going to change. I mean, you don't change the spots on a leopard. He's I mean, he is who he is and his personality is not going to change. I didn't think it was a fit for this congressional district. However, the voters thought otherwise. And how did that change once Bilzerian got into the race? And you had been running for a while by the time he got into the race, and you were making this case against Randy Fine's foreign policy in a fairly reasonable way.

58:45Bilzerian gets into the race. What happened? Yeah, so if we go back in history a little bit, so I filed my paperwork in April right after Fine won the special election. Dan called me back in December of last year, and we spoke for a good long while. And he said, you know, after the first of the year, let's catch up and I'll be more than happy to see what I can do to help you. And that was what I thought was going to be the plan going forward. And then we were never able to reconnect. And then I get a call in late March or maybe mid-March. And Dan says, well, you didn't raise enough money. And I wanted to say, well, no, duh, you didn't help me.

59:33Like you said you were going to. He said, so I'm going to run myself. And I thought, okay, well, you know, you need to get on a plane and you need to get your butt here right now. And at that point, I even offered, you know, okay, if you're serious about this, I'll take you around. I know every square inch of this district. I'll take you to every place that you need to go. And if he had wanted to run a serious campaign, you know, clean up your look a little bit, you know, get a haircut. look like you did back in 2013 when you were a movie extra, maybe, okay, you stand a chance. And you've got to realize who your electorate is.

1:00:16The average Republican voter in this congressional district is 51 years old. So you've really got to tone down what you're saying. You can say, I don't want offensive weapons, and I don't want any financial aid to Israel. But you can't say that I will take up arms and start exterminating Israelis. That those, you know, you're not going to win a congressional race like that, no matter how much money you have. So, you know, he came in like a bull in a china shop and thought he didn't need to listen to anyone. No campaign events until the last day of early voting, which was the Saturday, which was last Saturday.

1:00:58And he shows up to a fishback event. and, you know, 30, 40, 50 people there and stands around, hands out free tacos for half an hour and then disappears. You know, at least on election day, show up somewhere. I mean, on election day, I was at eight different polling locations, you know, still trying to get voters, talking to voters. And, you know, because I believed based on what we had experienced door knocking, and we knocked on about 30 ,000 doors. Wow. my campaign. And we had a very positive response. I mean, there was a very anti-fine sentiment out there. It's just a matter of, you know, who has the most money, who sends out the most palm cards or most postcards in the mailboxes, and who, you know, puts out the most television ads.

1:01:53and that seems to be what people listen to. They don't remember, oh, hey, I met this Aaron guy three months ago when he came and knocked on my door. They remember the postcard that they got yesterday or the TV commercial that they saw this morning on Fox News. So I would tell anyone that wants to gulp against an incumbent, you better have at least$3 million in the bank in order to make a serious run at it. But it also needs to be a consolidated effort. You don't need five people in the race like we had. You need to be able to get behind that one candidate and say, okay, this is our candidate, and this is our path going forward, and we're going to attack airwaves.

1:02:40We're going to attack mailboxes. We're going to knock on doors for one specific candidate. When you start to split the vote, then it muddies everything up, and people are like, well, I don't know if I should vote for Dan or if I should vote for Aaron. Well, let me just go with what I know. Let me just vote for Randy. You know, bang, bang, bang. And so, you know, then you get the results that we had.

1:03:04Saagar Enjeti:So, Aaron, I do really respect you for taking a stand against Randy Fiennes' genocidal rhetoric, his Islamophobia. But with Dan Balzerian, it seems like the opposite side of the field. I'm reading a tweet from just July 28th that says, Jews are the problem. Everyone's fear of saying it out loud is what allows it to continue. So when you say that, oh, he just needed a haircut. He needed to look a little bit more like the Hollywood extra. Was that really the main issue? Or was this race decided between a candidate that hates Muslims and a candidate that seems to hate Jews? Well, and that's the whole point.

1:03:46You know, I mean, he needed to, if he were going to get in this race, he needed to not say any of that stupid stuff that he says. But, you know, he just can't help himself. So if you can't help yourself, then you need to get behind one consolidated candidate, which ideally, you know, would have been me because I ran against buying before. So, I mean, it made sense. Yeah. Yeah. What did you make of sort of you're talking about like the mailers that are going out advertisements? What did you make of sort of the media ecosystem? What was Randy Fine talking about? What was his campaign running on?

1:04:25And how big of a role do you think that the Iran war and the subsequent inflation and cost of living as a result of that and Israel in general, how big of a role did that play in this election? It didn't play any role at all. I mean, people at the end of the day, people didn't seem to care. I mean, you have 20 or 30 percent of the electorate that care about affordability, which is what we talked about nonstop or what I talked about nonstop. So, you know, I mean, there was 43 percent of the electorate that wanted an alternative. But, you know, 43 percent of the electorate is not enough. And it needs to be like I said, it needs to be a consolidated effort.

1:05:06And Randy Fine placed the victim card the entire time. If you look back to, you know, the picture that he posted of someone who had vandalized one of the signs, spray painted a swastika on it. And the day after that news story came out, I called the supervisor of elections in Plagler County. And I said, where did this picture come from? This picture cannot exist because I was the one that found the campaign sign. And I was the one that went and got an election official to take the campaign sign down. And so then I was talking to one of the reporters at the Daytona Beach News Journal, which he followed up with the supervisor of elections.

1:05:44Well, it turns out they put the sign back in the ground in order to take a picture to send to Randy Fine. So, I mean, you know, he's victim 101. Oh, you know, look at me. Poor me. Poor me. Look at what they're doing to my campaign signs. And it's staged. Oh, that is incredible. What is appealing in any way, shape, or form about Randy Fine in this district? I mean, like, how can a guy like this win an election? Right. You got me beat on that one.

1:06:16Saagar Enjeti:Is it Trump? Is it the Trump endorsement? Yeah, I mean, just the Trump endorsement. I mean, Trump won this district by 30 points. So, you know, Randy Fine has underperformed Trump at every single stage. Which, you know, other than Trump, that's what his signs say. Trump endorsed. Trump endorsed. Trump endorsed. Trump endorsed. Fine for Congress. And that's how he opens every, you know, every speech that he gives. And, you know, he has absolutely zero respect for the people here, which I had a lot of help behind the scenes from elected officials. But the elected officials didn't want to come out and say, oh, Aaron, you know, we'll support you publicly.

1:07:01You know, they're like, we can't stand this guy just because of the way he acts. You know, he walks into the building in Flagler County and, you know, snubs his nose at all of the county commissioners. And they're like, why are we supporting this guy? You know, we'll be more than happy to help you behind the scenes. But no one wants to come out publicly for fear of retribution. And I get it. Right. Yeah, that makes sense. And I guess let's say hypothetically a wave of magic wand, you had three to five million dollars running against Randy Fine and your argument that you were making was amplified.

1:07:39And you had the money to go make this argument to more voters, have the conversation on more TV ads and mailers and that sort of thing. Can you just take us into what those conversations were like? Because you mentioned there is an anti-Fine sentiment. But I'm also just curious, as someone from the right saying we shouldn't be talking like this. We shouldn't be thinking like this. We shouldn't continue to send all of this aid. Did you find receptive audiences when you're having those conversations in person? Like we're Republican voters. And I imagine because you got 13.5 percent of the vote, some people were like, hell yeah, getting behind you.

1:08:14This is insane. What was that undercurrent like? How were people thinking about this on the right? I mean, when I would talk to, when I would speak to an audience, nine times out of 10, they would say, Aaron, we're, you know, we're behind you 100%. You know, we agree with everything you're saying that, you know, the affordability is a major issue. We agree that Social Security has to be fixed in the next Congress. And these are things that Randy Fine's not talking about. He's talking about, I'm Trump endorsed. I'm Trump endorsed. I'm Trump endorsed. Well, good luck after Trump's not here anymore.

1:08:50I have no idea what he's going to do. And what about on Israel? It was really kind of a non-issue. And I think from Dan's perspective, it turned off more voters than it helped with him. If he had simply stuck to a message about, you know, kind of down the middle about affordability, you know, and addressed it in a point of foreign aid and, you know, helping seniors with Medicare costs and making sure that seniors get a cost of living increase every year, that would have been a much more receptive message because, you know, that's what I was saying. And basically, he got about 4 % more than me with, you know, millions of dollars that he spent.

1:09:35So, you know, I was able to do the same thing, trying to run not far right, not extreme far other right, but, you know, kind of down the center. So, to your point, I think that if I had$5 million, it would have been a very easy race.

1:09:54Saagar Enjeti:So, Aaron, you mentioned a little bit of the circus of Dan Bilzerian showing up to a James Fishback campaign event, and I wanted your reaction to that as well. Now, of course, James Fishback is known as the Groyper candidate. He goes around talking to young men about goyslop. He was referring to his black opponent as Byron, and he was going around attacking OnlyFans creators, saying that he was going to tax them and give money to teachers. he had what felt like an organic youth movement on the ground. He drew a lot of crowds, but pulling up some of the results here, he got third place. He got about 10.5 % of the vote coming in third behind Jay Collins and Byron Donalds, who actually won.

1:10:47Saagar Enjeti:What is your reaction to those results? Like, what does that tell you about the Florida electorate?

1:10:55I did a lot of different events with James before James announced the two of us sat down together at a Starbucks and talked about his candidacy and my candidacy and at that time I was supporting Jay Collins and I told him I was supporting Jay Collins and well if anything changes keep me in mind and that's kind of where we left it And then Jay Collins came out with this nonsense about, you know, you can't say this and you can't say this. And some of his kind of factual things behind the scenes about he has two kids. Well, he actually has three. Some of those things didn't sit well with me. So it was very easy transition for me to then support James.

1:11:45However, in about April or May, I saw that it was going to need to be a consolidated effort against Byron. And I was with Paul Renner at an event in St. Augustine. And, you know, why not ask Paul? You know, this has to be some type of consolidated effort. And no one would put on their big boy pants and, you know, take one for the team at that point. They all thought, well, you know, we're just going to run our campaign and it didn't work. The only way for. To defeat Byron Donaldson, a hundred million dollars or two hundred million dollars or how many ever bazillion dollars he has in the bank now was going to it was it needed to be a consolidated effort and it wasn't happening.

1:12:33Saagar Enjeti:Outside the consolidation, though, isn't there a moral character question to these candidates? I mean, he's being blatantly racist. you know you saying things like goyslop i mean he did have a stance about that was anti-israel that you know connected to the youth but did you not have any moral character concerns about either these guys not really i mean you know i i think that james james's heart was in it for the right reasons and i think um certainly paul renner's heart was in it for the right reasons um and And, you know, Jay Collins, to a certain extent, you know, his heart was in it for the right reasons.

1:13:12But they needed to all sit down in a room and figure out, you know, OK, I'm going to be governor and I'm going to be lieutenant governor and I'm going to have this role in the administration. So, you know, a lot of that rhetoric that that happens in campaigns is is just that. And, you know, it happens in every campaign now. I mean, there's some a little more extreme than others. Yeah, but, you know, at the same time, I think it shows that Byron's going to have a little bit of a tough time in the general election. I mean, most of the polls right now have him and Jolly virtually tied in a state that, you know, Governor DeSantis won by 20 points.

1:13:50So we're going to see how all that plays out. I suppose just following up on the fishback point, I see him, you know, he's not Dan Bilzerian, certainly. And I've actually known him. I talked about this on the show earlier this week for a long time and saw like basically a total personality transplant, which I found very odd. Like I've known him for probably five years. And as soon as he got into the race, he started to Griffin's point talking about Goislop and Byron and all of those different things. And I guess I sort of see what you're saying about taking down Byron Donalds, who's not the ideal candidate for conservatives to represent Florida, no question about it.

1:14:31But I guess then it's like at what cost do you try to defeat Byron Donalds and be potentially David Jolly? Is it worth, from my perspective, the answer would be no, like stoking racial resentments and using terms like goyslop? How did you think about that, Aaron? Well, I guess your point would be it's almost a toned down version of Dan, where Dan came in like a wrecking ball and James came in to try to appeal to some of that over 35 crowd, if you will. So, you know, at what point is the argument worth it or is the, you know, the rage bait click worth it? That's, you know, that's the million dollar question.

1:15:27I mean, our race between me, Dan and Randy certainly turned very ugly at the end. And, you know, that's not something that I'm going to participate in. I'm not going to, you know, say anything that's not true. you know, I'll call you out for saying stupid stuff. And I certainly called Dan out for posting the wrong early voting dates and, you know, just doing stupid stuff and not doing any campaign events or doing scheduling campaign events outside of district. But I think James tried to, tried to craft a message that could possibly appeal to the over 35 crowd, but just really didn't that much.

1:16:12And some people would see that as like sneaky, trying to sneak in bigotry. Did you have those concerns? I just kind of rolled with the punches. And, you know, most of the time, there were certain things that James said along the way. And, you know, I would be sitting in the room and he was certainly playing to the audience. And, you know, if you, for example, we were in Tampa and there were the seating capacity in the room was 600 and the room was completely full and the fire marshal wouldn't let people in. So I know that there were at least 750 people there. But, you know, I mean, he's really playing to the audience, you know, when he talks about Goy Slop and and all and all that.

1:16:59And, you know, it's it's all it's all in good fun. I do think that James has a future in the Republican Party. and I think that he has a huge following now. He received 170 ,000 votes. That's nothing to sneeze at. Okay, I was going to say, last question on that, Aaron. I'm sorry to keep doing the fishback thing. It's just when you say it's all in good fun. Is it really fun? Is that the kind of fun that you want to get behind if it's, again, Byron, trying to play up racial stereotypes, those sorts of things?

1:17:31Saagar Enjeti:Sorry, Emily's our resident woke. Yeah. I think in the end, I did vote for James. In the end, I think James would have made a really good lieutenant governor. But that lieutenant governor would have had to have been if Paul Renner were at the top of the ticket. I think the two of those were saying the same thing. However, Paul is expert at crafting his message where he's talking about Christian values. And, you know, I didn't really have, there were some cringe moments where I'm like, this is not going to go over well for the over 55 crowd. And, you know, we saw that, you know, we did an event in the villages where you have 650 people show up on a college campus in Tampa and you have 20 people show up in the villages.

1:18:29Saagar Enjeti:Wow. Yeah, that's crazy. That's like the college for old people. So, Aaron, always exciting stuff happening down in Florida. One of my favorite states. Thank you so much for coming on. And we look forward to seeing where you and the Florida Republican Party go next. Appreciate it. Always a pleasure. Thank you. Thanks, Aaron. Thanks, Aaron. Okay, let's round out this amazing Friday show with my favorite part, as always, the AMA questions. Now, this first one, let's get spicy right off the top, guys. This is from Matthew C. could there be a coherent defund the police and anti-flock coalition? Would Sager be convinced?

1:19:09Saagar Enjeti:Emily, what do you make of that question? Wait, repeat it because my headphones went out briefly. Matthew C. is asking, could there be a coherent defund the police plus anti-flock coalition? So I think what they're saying is that it seems like anti-flock is very popular. Could that somehow be parlayed into a conversation about defunding the police? I mean, certainly on like an intellectual level, you can make that case. That's basically like the Libertarian Party, like some anarcho-communist. Well, maybe some of the anarcho-communists probably, and they tend to hang in libertarian circles, already have made that case convincingly.

1:19:48But could you make it coherent, a coherent case to the public about that? That's a question I would maybe turn back to you guys. Like in urban areas, could you reinvigorate the defund the police movement with the flock movement as a launching pad? It's not going to bring in a broad coalition of Americans who are generally supportive of the police, very sensitive about things like Flock, very sensitive about militarized policing. You're not going to get, you know, broad support across America, which has a lot of, like, dare I say libertarian instincts for things like militarized police. That was one of the one of the narratives that came out of the Ferguson protests is like after Iraq, we're flooding all of these local policing units with military capabilities.

1:20:35But on the other hand, I don't know. Do you think so? So I don't think you're ever going to get like a broad coalition of Americans. But in some cities, could you reinvigorate defund with the flock? I mean, I think so. To me, I've always been a defund the police guy. And I know that it's not like a popular sort of like movement at this point. But I never really understood why it was so controversial. To me, it's the same argument as, you know, why I think we should be defunding the Pentagon, right? It's that the baseline budget that we have and the baseline equipment that we have for police in the United States of America.

1:21:12I mean, like there are some localities or cities in this country that have higher police budgets than most countries' military budgets. I mean, it's it is completely out of control, the amount that we're spending on police and on mass surveillance and so-called security. Like those resources could and should be reallocated towards more effective, I think, like community and social programs. So to me, the argument for defund the police has always been very straightforward and convincing. But in terms of the pushback to flock, what worries me about it is that I think there's a large component of it that people are upset that it's a private company that's sort of acting in as this intermediary.

1:21:50I don't know if there would be the same energy if it was just, you know, straight up police cameras that were effectively doing the same thing. But the threat is the same, like the threat of mass surveillance, the threat of, you know, this sort of like pre-crime approach that's there, whether it's a private company like Flock that's contracting with with the police or whether it's the the police or the government in and of itself. So I hope that we could make some sort of a pairing there. I also, by the way, I've heard online that apparently something's happening on Halloween. I'm not going to say too much about it.

1:22:20But apparently Halloween is the D-Flock night because people are dressed up in. Yes. Yes. There's going to be a big D. Because everybody's dressed up in costumes. And so you have sort of like, you know, crowds of people and everybody's sort of like covering up their identity. So we could see a big deflock movement in a couple of months here coming up.

1:22:42Saagar Enjeti:All right. Keep your eyes on that, everybody. All right. This next one is for Emily. Wait, where did it go? Okay. This is from Raphael Dimion. Question for our resident religious expert, Ms. Jasinski. Donald J. Trump doesn't seem to be a pious man, people are saying. But he has recently made remarks that people interpret as religious, most notably that grass has life like human. Grass, it's got life. When did you say that? Like humans. Is he a secret Buddhist? And what are your thoughts on his comments? What is this grass being? Wait, let me find. Someone posted the funniest thing about this. He says so many things.

1:23:19Saagar Enjeti:I miss some of the best ones. Yeah, there's some incredible ones. Okay, so this guy, Logan McMillan on X, posted, this is the third time Trump has said that grass has, quote, life like humans. He is close to embracing the truth, the Buddha-like nature of all things, and rejecting the false binary of sentience slash insentience. Is this because he's fucking up the White House lawn and he's like, oh, it looked better when there was grass there? Well, and he's been thinking about grass a lot because of that, because of the National Mall, which is having grass issues. But I don't think this is the wealth.

1:23:56I don't think Buddhism is the wealth from which these thoughts spring. I don't think anybody can know the source of Trump's musings on grass. I am. And I think that's the beauty of it, right? It remains enigmatic. We'll never get to the bottom of what Trump thinks about anything, frankly. It is funny, though, like some of his random he will just get on a random tear about something like remember when it was Robert Pattinson and Kristen Stewart. he posted like 10 tweets telling Robert Pattinson to leave Kristen Stewart in like 2012.

1:24:29Saagar Enjeti:And he was right to do so because now they're both much happier. He's right about the grass too, apparently. I think it's one of those late in life things, right, Mac? Like, you know, he's seen the sunset of his life and he's coming in tune with nature. But it's also weird because he's had previous statements sort of alluding to like heaven and hell, right? That he's not going? That he's not going to heaven, which is also interesting because it's like, well, if you believe in hell, Like, wouldn't you be like trying to redeem yourself in the final wake of you? Or he's just he's given up at this point.

1:25:01He's he's he's set and going to hell. But this is the beauty of it again. It's like we will never know. We can we can talk. We can speculate. But there is no answer.

1:25:13Saagar Enjeti:OK, final one, Mac. This is from Hockey. what if the establishment forces two Zionist candidates upon us for president of 2028? Well, they're definitely going to try to. You know, when you look at the slate of candidates, well, I mean, obviously the Republican candidate is going to be a Zionist. I don't think that's even in question. I mean, most likely at this point it's going to be JD or Marco Rubio, one of the two. Or Fishback, apparently. Or Fishback or Nick Fuentes or whatever else the universe throws at us. But on the Democratic side, I just I'm nervous right now because I don't know who could be the real who has the charisma, who has the sort of energy, the capability to really be an insurgent like Bernie style or Bernie level caliber of candidate.

1:26:08it? It doesn't seem like it's going to...

1:26:11Saagar Enjeti:AOC 28 seems to be circling the drain right now. So I don't think... Yeah, it probably won't be AOC. It could be if Abdul wins, you know, and he really locks in and, like, focuses on becoming a real national figure over the next couple of years. It could be somebody like Abdul. You got other people like Ro Khanna that are in there. But, you know, Ro Khanna is not even an anti-Zionist. There really are very few anti-Zionists, truly like Bernie Sanders is not an anti-Zionist like there's very very few anti-Zionist high level politicians that could run in 2028 so Hockey was his name apologies but I think that's like almost an inevitability you said Hockey Hockey is the username I thought you were giving a cute nickname to Jeffries no I'm just I think it's almost an inevitability that it will be yeah exactly I think it's an inevitability that it will be a, to some extent, a Zionist candidate.

1:27:09But the question then is like, how do politicians like Kamala Harris or, you know, John Ossoff, like, where do they position themselves in regard to Israel? Because you could have a Zionist candidate who also is willing to restrict weaponry to Israel or who is, you know, willing to change the dynamic of that relationship. And I think that's more so going to be where the test is.

1:27:29Saagar Enjeti:okay much to think about much to look forward to much to dread everybody keep their eyes on grass this weekend you might find some inspiration in your own life um everyone go follow after party with emily jashinsky go check out good politic guy max channel he grinds as well and the links to that will be in the description and most importantly follow me on instagram.com um True room. Do it. Breaking points. We'll be back on Monday. Thank you all so much. And have a lovely weekend. We'll see you later. Most people never shop their car insurance. Here's the hidden truth. Your rate can change for reasons that have nothing to do with you.

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