9/5/25: Trump TERRIBLE Jobs Report, Hidden Cam Epstein List Honeypot Exposes DOJ

16:14And so what you're going to see in the data now, he's saying, is some increase in construction. because obviously you've got to build all of these gigantic factories that in his mind are getting built. But that's not what's happening. So I just looked this up. So 22 ,000 jobs overall went up this month. Construction lost 7 ,000. So it pulled away from it.

16:43Ryan Grim:And manufacturing lost 12 ,000. The construction job loss is even more stunning when you consider how much money is being thrown at these giant data centers which do require construction and you know are going up in places across the country so it means what am i here

17:01Emily Jashinsky:what am i hearing and there's the the big beautiful bill was full of incentives for construction so like 100 write-offs dated interactive to january um and that passed in July. So going down in August is also not ideal. So all goods producing jobs across the board are down 25 ,000. Mining and logging down 6 ,000. Construction 7. Manufacturing down 12 ,000. Durable goods down 19 ,000. Motor vehicles and parts down 7 ,000. Wholesale trade down 11 ,000. And so the idea that you can see in here the beginnings of a manufacturing renaissance that a year from now is going to blossom is just not borne out by the data.

17:50So I think he's going to have to get this Cato guy out of here or whoever he brought in here and find somebody who's going to give him some better numbers.

17:58Emily Jashinsky:Oh, the PLS. You can just take these negatives, actually, and just turn them into positives. Like, it's not a lot of work to fix this data. Yeah.

18:05Saagar Enjeti:Well, people always are more fans of the late Renaissance and the early Renaissance, Ryan. So I think you have to hold out a little bit. But let's hear from Fox Business about their view on this renaissance. We hear private payrolls coming in.

18:17Ryan Grim:The expectation was seventy five thousand. We got thirty eight thousand and there was loss of sixteen thousand jobs in government, which I think Lauren mentioned. But again, you know, that's two thousand for Charles. It's a it's a weaker than expected number. And these revisions are pretty brutal. Yeah, extraordinarily. You know, I mentioned health care, 31 ,000. The 12-month average is 42 ,000. That had been obviously a massive driver, and we know the demographic situation there. Just a little disappointed. Manufacturing was hoping to maybe see something there. But it's just, I think for the most part, if there was a whisper number, and I'm sure there was, this might be right where the whisper number is.

18:55And this is a sweet spot, I think, from the market's perspective. You can see the major averages are moving higher. It's not so bad that we think in recession, but it's bad enough that we think maybe the Fed could be much more accommodative beyond September. And I'll add to that.

19:09Emily Jashinsky:They have modeled their economic plan or they have tried to soothe themselves about the short term ramifications of their economic agenda by looking at the recession that occurred early in the Reagan administration, the first Reagan term. And so this idea that there may be a recession sounds politically very horrifying if you're the Republican Party going into a midterm cycle. And of course, that's true. But there's been this like bomb they've applied since day one, looking back at 1981 and where the economy went and saying, it's OK, we can get through it. Ronald Reagan got through it with this dramatic reorganization of the economy.

19:54Emily Jashinsky:So that's been in the back of their minds the whole time, actually really in the front of their minds the whole time.

19:58Ryan Grim:So they actually believe like they believe that hype?

20:02Emily Jashinsky:I think they absolutely believe. I mean, if you look at people like Steve Moore, he's been around since those days. Larry Kudlow. Absolutely.

20:15Ryan Grim:Well, I mean, we'll see. But I mean, the other piece that is a problem for them is just that the American people don't buy into their economic agenda at all. So, you know, that's if you're going to do a short term pain for long term gain thing. First of all, it means to actually deliver that long term gain, which there are zero signs is going to happen. As Ryan was pointing out, manufacturing town, construction down, black unemployment up. Like these are all the indicators that you they should be able to point to of like, oh, but things are going to move in the right direction. and we can already see the impact.

20:50Ryan Grim:And so you don't even have the potential, you know, the likelihood of a long term gain. But you have to have the public bought in on that project if you're going to politically sell some short term pain. And there's no sign that, you know, I mean, tariffs are one of the most unpopular things that Trump has done this term. And that's saying a lot because there have been a lot of unpopular things that have been done. Right. And these are numbers that were put in there by the guy whose job it was to put in good numbers. So we need to remember that. And also, they almost didn't get them out in time.

21:25There was all this drama.

21:26Ryan Grim:Yeah, there was drama this morning. The BLS site wasn't working, and 30 minutes before the number drops and whatever. I think Lutnick this morning said something like, if we hadn't fired the person, this would be a fireable offense. That's incredible. Did he really? Yes.

21:45Ryan Grim:That's incredible. Wow. Incredible country that we live in.

21:52Saagar Enjeti:Yeah.

21:53Emily Jashinsky:Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm going to go for it. Well, no, I was just going to say, I think the tariff uncertainty lingering into now August is pretty, my read on all of this is that's just been devastating. It's not that this has to necessarily look like this for a protectionist or an economy that is looking to reorganize and be more protectionist. But I think the way that we're now into fall and there's enormous uncertainty about what these deals actually look like, even after they're done deals and what they'll look like in the future. I think you can pass one big, beautiful bill all you want, but that lingering uncertainty is going to actually undermine it in a lot of ways and sort of drag it down, even if you have a kind of charitable forecast about what it could do.

22:44Ryan Grim:Well, the courts may save them from themselves if they strike down all the tariffs and this all goes away. And Lutnik is always fun. Do we want to do one Lutnik? Let's do it. Then we can get to James O 'Keefe. Well, I mean, think of the employment. You look at next year's employment. It is going to explode. Next year. We're building all the plants that are coming into America. You know, you look at the unemployment rate numbers today. Wait till a year from today. Wow. It will be amazing. number well let's talk about that we do have a jobs report that's coming out in oh over 30 minutes time 8 30 we're going to get the jobs report um there have been some questions about some weakness kind of popping up in the labor market at this point what do you see well the fact you need a countdown like that economy is just beginning right i mean he's convinced all these companies to come in using his tariff policy to just come on in and build here.

23:42Way over$10 trillion of investment. So look a year from today, the end of this year starting, and look a year from today, you're going to see employment numbers that you never imagined because what it's going to do is it's going to take the 6.9 million Americans who are capable of working, who are sitting on the sidelines. All right, so any day.

24:04Ryan Grim:Yeah, that's right. That is actually amazing that they are acknowledging effectively, like, well, things are going to be bad. But a year from now, just a year from now, you're going to believe it. The last thing I'll say before I can move on to James O 'Keefe and Epstein, which actually there's a kind of a tie in here, is the clip we played of Trump with Bill Gates and Zuckerberg sitting alongside him. Emily, what would the right say if that was Kamala Harris sitting in that chair with Gates and Zuckerberg and Sundar Pichai and all those people right there in these very chummy circumstances?

24:39Emily Jashinsky:Well, the right would reapply the socialist drag from 2021 and talk about how evil corporate America is. And they'd be correct. Yeah. Donald Trump in that dinner said to the Google CEO, you know, congratulations on, you know, getting off so easy.

24:57Ryan Grim:with the Department of Justice case and reminded him that was Biden that came after you, not me. Are you serious? It's like Trump is on a humiliation tour.

25:08Emily Jashinsky:That was Trump 1.0, filed that case. That was his DOJ. So it's not even true.

25:15Ryan Grim:It's not even true. Is the humiliation tour to humiliate himself, to humiliate anyone who ever supported him, all of the above? I think he's angry that his supporters wanted him to do things. and so he's just thumbing it in their nose that like you wanted me to go after this guy? He's a billionaire. Yeah. Who are you? Yeah. Wild.

25:38Saagar Enjeti:Especially after the gifts. Like once Tim Cook gave the, what was it? He gave him a golden iPad. Yes. What gold? Yeah. His MAGA fans don't give him gold. Step it up, MAGA fans. They buy fake gold from him and it's embarrassing. 16 years ago, I started working as a CNA in the hospital. I loved it. On the day I decided to enroll in the nursing program at Rasmussen University, it was afternoon, my 35th birthday. I was hanging out with a friend and they had just questioned me what I was going to do with this next chapter of my life. I immediately had said, I want to go to nursing school. So I actually had contact information from an advisor at Rasmussen, contacted her and actually ended up starting like three weeks later.

26:17My name is Cherish Adams and I'm a Rasmussen University graduate. Learn more at rasmussen.edu. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I also led the team that created MTV, and my co-founders and I are celebrating MTV's 45th anniversary this month. On my podcast, Math & Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing, you'll hear the untold origin story from the people who built MTV from the ground up. I want my MTV!

26:46Emily Jashinsky:Those are powerful words, my. Something for me that felt like mine and want. What a powerful word. Listen to Math & Magic, stories from the frontiers of marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up, y 'all? It's your girl, Sam Jay. And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together and iHeart Women's Sports. Because let's be real, women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days. So Kelsey Finler, she became the first female solo rower to go from California to Hawaii.

27:22My first thought is, like, what's up with the snacks? Like, what are we eating? The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline. And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week. Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports. Naomi Osaka showing out. She beat Sabalenka. Shout-outs to you, Naomi. You get the palm, Naomi. You get the palm for that. Because we're not just interested in what happened, we're interested in why everyone's talking about it. because everyone watches women's sports.

27:53Listen to Everyone Watches Women's Sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

28:03Saagar Enjeti:That's right. Well, Crystal mentioned earlier, you know, belief in the project, belief in the Trump project. So I think this leads us nicely into trusting the plan a little bit more. We have some breaking news from investigative, what do we call James O 'Keefe? Would you call him a hidden cam reporter? That's probably fair. Undercover. Undercover. Undercover journalist. He uses the dating apps to get his scoops, apparently. Yeah. Which we should actually do more often. I know. We got to get on field. So DOJ deputy chief admits government will redact every Republican while leaving all the liberal Democratic people on the Epstein client list.

28:47Saagar Enjeti:Let's just hear a second of this and then we'll get out of it. Exist. Yeah, thousands and thousands of pages per five. They'll read back every Republican or conservative person in those files. Leave all the liberal, Democratic people in those files. And they visited that Maxwell person? Yeah. And also involved? She got transferred to a minimum security prison too recently, which is against BLP policy because she's a big sex worker. All right. So he says that, James O 'Keefe, welcome to the resistance and then the doj chief had to issue a a formal response which i'll pull up here before i get y 'all's reactions uh this was a u.s department of justice tweet on the notes app

29:32Emily Jashinsky:for acting director paul it's an email draft it's an okay it's an email draft but it looks airplane airplane and 30 like that's all in the original doj screenshot that's great that's we're

29:47Saagar Enjeti:We're on low battery and low confidence. Read the first line. Read the first line. Acting Director Pollack. It's not the phone.

29:55Emily Jashinsky:It's that the DOJ is at 30 % battery. Yes, that's right.

29:59Saagar Enjeti:So Acting Director Pollack says, in his words, I met a woman named Skylar on Hinge, a dating app in July 2025. Her profile is no longer findable. We had two dates, August 4th and August 16th. She claimed to be an appare in Georgetown. Many such cases.

30:16Ryan Grim:Skylar.

30:16Saagar Enjeti:She gave no clues that she was a reporter. Skylar, that's not a foreign name. Come on.

30:22Emily Jashinsky:Skylar, the Georgetown au pair.

30:25Saagar Enjeti:She gave no clues that she was a reporter or recording our dates. Had I a clue, the first date would have ended immediately and there would never be a second one. My profile indicated I did government work, but did not specify for which agency. The comments I made were my own personal comments of what I've learned in the media and not from anything I've done or learned via work. I have no knowledge of the circumstances surrounding Miss Maxwell, other than what is reported in the news. I also never divulged anything about what I do at work. I recall that she asked if I had any knowledge about Maxwell, and I specifically said I only know what's being reported in the media.

30:58Saagar Enjeti:So, yeah, I mean, outside of all this, I just don't think talking about Epstein is first date material. I don't think that's a first date topic.

31:08Emily Jashinsky:You don't think it's a good litmus test? Also, I have Googled this, and Google confirms Skylar is an American name developed in the 1980s. Oh, wow. Isn't that the name of the wife in Breaking Bad?

31:22Ryan Grim:That's right, yes. Skylar?

31:24Saagar Enjeti:She was kind of unjustly maligned.

31:27Ryan Grim:People hated her, yeah.

31:29Saagar Enjeti:Yes, but I think history looks back on her more kindly, I think.

31:33Ryan Grim:Actually, at MSNBC, I interviewed her about the hate she got for this character she was playing. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Skylar will send me on a journey. Yeah. But I mean, listen, let's let's say about James O 'Keefe, like he uses very dishonest tactics, not only in the like hidden camera and trick you into a date on hinge or whatever, but he's been caught in the past taking whatever audio gets, clipping it together in a way that makes it look, you know, actively deceptive or, you know, very misleading in terms of it. So is it possible that this guy was saying what he had heard generally in the news and what his conclusions were?

32:11Ryan Grim:Yeah, I think that I actually think that is possible that that was what he was talking about. I also think it's a very bad sign if you're, you know, someone that high up in the DOJ thinks that's what's going on. That's a pretty bad indication of, you know, people that are at that high level of government who are watching this unfold. and are like, yeah, of course, they're going to just get rid of all the Republican names and leave in the Democratic ones. And obviously, Ghislaine got transferred because they wanted her to shut the hell up. You know, if that's a conclusion they're coming to, then it does tell you something, even if he's right and he has no special knowledge of this case or these files or whatever.

32:49Emily Jashinsky:Which isn't true. Like, there's no way he has no special knowledge. I agree with you, Crystal. It's entirely possible. Like, O 'Keefe has found some legitimately interesting stuff. We mentioned earlier the Amy Robot comment from when the cameras were rolling, but they weren't live on ABC talking about how the network killed her Epstein story. I think she said something like, quote, I had it all. Yeah, really frustrated. That's an O 'Keefe. But other times there's like really obvious or not obvious. I mean, really problematic editing that's not obvious because you haven't seen what you don't know what you haven't seen, basically.

33:23Emily Jashinsky:So is it possible that he caught out this guy saying, hey, I heard this from everything I'm saying here is just from public media. I don't have any insight, not sure. But it's unlikely that a man this high up in the Department of Justice, actually, even the like the people in the lower rungs of the Department of Justice right now are all absorbing the gossip. You could be the janitor at the Department of Justice and you would be absorbing. I mean, you would you probably know a lot, actually, absorbing the vibes and the mood. But if you're in this guy's position, it's just not true. Even if he's parroting what he's hearing in the media, then that's just validating the truth of what's being reported in the media, because it rings true to somebody who's that high up.

34:05Saagar Enjeti:You also got to leave. You got to leave a few Republicans in there if you're going to do it a cover up. Right. Like, you know, to quote like Bain, they got to find someone in the wreckage. Right. You got to leave like someone's got to be the sacrificial lamb here.

34:17Ryan Grim:No, they don't think that way. They have no shame. You could leave Chris Christie in there. Yeah, come on. There's got to be a Never Trumper on there. Why is Christie catching strays this morning, Ryan? Oh, because I saw Trump's AI video of Christie and J.B. Pritzker sumo wrestling. Oh, my God. That's a real sentence.

34:39Emily Jashinsky:That left a different. That's a real sentence. I have both those men. The sentence that just came out of Ryan's mouth reflects reality. Yes, the President of the United States did post an AI video of Chris Christie and J.B. Pritzker sumo wrestling.

34:49Ryan Grim:think that actually did happen yeah yeah that did happen but no i don't think that they do think like oh we need to leave someone in there to make it seem like this is legit and they don't think that way i mean trump went from saying on the trail like we're gonna release it and playing it up and you know bon gino and all cash patales people hyping it up and like making lots of money and careers off of it to being like two-page memo nothing to see here by the way he killed himself case closed and it's a democrat hoax by the way ginned up by like hillary clinton and james comey so there's no need for them to feel like they need to be consistent in fact the like we can already see the maga base has moved like they bought it they've moved on it's so for them it's over for the general public and for you know certainly for for democrats at this point they're very interested in it but um in terms of him losing support among his hardcore fans not happening

35:40Saagar Enjeti:well democrats are semi-interested in it i don't know how interested some of them yeah that's true

35:46Emily Jashinsky:Well, I was going to say it is true. And I think it's probably always been true that Trump's like polling public support is not the needle won't be moved significantly by Epstein stuff. But it is interesting to see, for example, like Marjorie Taylor Greene going on Newsmax and and talking about Thomas Massey going on Newsmax and talking about a cover up and seeing James O 'Keefe, somebody who's very MAGA, continuing to chase the story like a dog with a bone. Those are the sorts of things, I think we talked about it here, that are not going away because so many people staked years of their own credibility saying, or their own quote credibility in some cases, saying this is the story of the century that reveals and exposes everything wrong with the corrupt class.

36:31Ryan Grim:Like it was the Rosetta Stone, you know, like this will unlock the understanding of everything that's been going on. Emily, is there anything else going on with James O 'Keefe? Like, I don't remember the details of how his organization fell apart. I remember there were like lawsuits, there were allegations of misbehavior and like just generally sort of like degenerate behavior. I think there was like misuse of funds. He was using funds for like his musical. Some odd dance numbers. Yeah. Oh, yeah. The dance numbers. I forgot about that. But I was just curious if that if if that rupture had created any friction between him and anyone in MAGA world or what your sense of any of that is.

37:12Emily Jashinsky:No, that's a good point. I mean, it was basically a power struggle internally at Project Veritas, which had a pretty like heavyweight board of directors and conservative movement circles. So some of those ties definitely did fracture, which is like ugly. Some of those things was ugly on both sides. People were weaponizing information and just was like nasty, nasty stuff. So that might contribute to it. There's no love lost between him. But and some of those types, I'm trying to think of a specific person that he would have a big grudge against. But he's he has been fairly like MAGA pro-Trump. I think he's one of those people that because he followed the Epstein story before there was a Trump cover up is in the position where he has to has to keep chasing it.

37:54Emily Jashinsky:Otherwise, you know, if you're if you have any I mean, if you if you want to have any credibility, you just you would look insane to drop it if you're him because he's poured so much into it.

38:06Ryan Grim:Yeah, I guess. Although, I mean, like, you know, it takes a lot to arrange these different undercover kind of like sting operations. He could have pursued any number of other topics, paths, et cetera. And it would have would not have been obvious of like, oh, well, you're just you're not even focused on Epstein anymore. You know what I mean? like if he had revealed some other liberal democratic thing it's not like people would have seen that as a failure to cover epstein they just would have seen that for whatever that thing would be so i don't know i find it interesting i mean it's also um there is a lane open now on the right that's like the griper lane um you saw the you know the tucker lane yeah the tucker lane the griper lane the um what's his name owen schreier is that his name over on infowars Schroer, yeah, who just like quit Infowars and Alex Jones is crashing out over it.

38:57Ryan Grim:And he says that Alex had told him he was too pessimistic about Trump. And the implication was he was being kind of censored in his Trump critique and also in his Israel critique. So there is I mean, there's there is some media fracturing that is happening on that side that is different. And I think it's part the Trump project is going to in some way come to an end at some point. it's part things are not going the way they wanted to I do think Epstein is a big part of that too because if you have any sort of integrity around this you have to acknowledge that it's a total and complete betrayal of the way this man portrayed himself as some deep state warrior that now he's like well my name's in the file so we're not going to be we're not going to be exposing those anytime

39:38Saagar Enjeti:soon or it's a hoax too yeah it feels like a safe attack because I think these guys know at the end of the day well you know Trump will find someone else to blame so we can blame Pam Bondi or we can blame someone at the DOJ and then fire them. So it doesn't feel like a direct attack on Trump. So I feel like there's some safety in it and it is like they're it's their bread and butter issue. So, you know, they can't really drop it. Emily mentioned Thomas Massey still kind of holding a flame for this stuff. And Thomas Massey is beginning to name names. Let's let's hear a clip right here from Thomas Massey, who is naming one of the billionaires.

40:15Well, let me give you the name of one of the billionaires who's running$2 million of ads in my district since I started this effort. His name is John Paulson. He's a hedge fund manager and a major donor to the Republican Party, a major donor to the Speaker of the House, a major donor to the president's campaign. And he's in Epstein's Black Book. Now that's public, but that's indicative of the types of people who may be implicated or just embarrassed by a release of a completely release of these files.

40:49Emily Jashinsky:Very interesting. Ryan, isn't Paulson the guy who shorted the housing market? Mm-hmm. That's right. Cool. Yeah. You have to give him a multi-multi-billionaire back when being that rich wasn't as common as it is now by betting on everybody, by betting on the financial.

41:07Ryan Grim:Maybe Epstein gave him that advice, and that's why he was so valuable to these guys. Did you ever think of that, Ryan? I haven't. How did he know?

41:18Emily Jashinsky:Well, Crystal, you were saying some people saw this as the Rosetta Stone. It's like, well, I mean, that's why we care about it, because maybe in some ways it is a Rosetta Stone.

41:27Ryan Grim:I mean, it certainly could unlock a lot of, even if it did turn out. He's not he wasn't Mossad. He wasn't CIA. Like he really just just was this horrific, you know, monster pedophile who separate and apart from that also had an interest in like cultivating powerful people just for the hell of it. Even if that turns out to be the case, that is still so revealing about the American criminal justice system that this man was able to get away with all of that just because of his wealth and his proximity to power. Like that also is I mean, I don't it wouldn't be that surprising. But I will say when you go back and look at what was going on in Palm Beach and the investigation with the local PD, like they weren't going to let him off the hook because of they knew he was wealthy.

42:14Ryan Grim:They knew he was connected to all these people and they weren't going to let him off the hook. it's when it gets elevated to you know above their heads that he ends up with this sweetheart deal and that to me is the center of why it's always been so suspicious the analysis of well he's just a rich guy and that's what happens to rich guys in america they get away with a lot true do they get away with you know trafficking allegedly hundreds of girls over years and years um and you know, having this vast network over all of this time and still being able to get into every elite circle imaginable, including the highest levels of, you know, academia and business and government here and in Israel, by the way, you know, I think that is that is the part that is very, we'll just say, eyebrow raising at best.

43:03Ryan Grim:But yeah, even if it's the, you know, the thinnest level of the conspiracy that there was no other large. It wasn't a blackmail scheme. It was just just him being a monster and that it was contained effectively to him. There were no other powerful people who were implicated in this kind of gross behavior. Um, even if it's that it still is very revealing and important information for us all to understand about the way the system works.

43:29Emily Jashinsky:I have been with Rasmussen university since 2013, all virtual, all of my professors throughout the entire journey have been nothing but supportive of making me reach my dreams. Rasmussen professors, they want to see you grow so that you can be what you went to school to be. I'm so thankful for Rasmussen University for being able to make it so easy and seamless. Rasmussen University. Find your seat and start now at rasmussen.edu. Hi, I'm Bob Pittman, chairman and CEO of iHeartMedia. I also led the team that created MTV, and my co-founders and I are celebrating MTV's 45th anniversary this month.

44:10On my podcast, Math & Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing, you'll hear the untold origin story from the people who built MTV from the ground up. I want my MTV!

44:21Emily Jashinsky:Those are powerful words. My. Something for me that felt like mine and want. What a powerful word. Listen to Math & Magic, Stories from the Frontiers of Marketing on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up, y 'all? It's your girl, Sam Jay. And we're the hosts of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together and I Heart Women's Sports. Because let's be real, women's sports is giving us way too much to talk about these days. So Kelsey Finler, she became the first female solo rower to go from California to Hawaii.

44:58My first thought is just like, what's up with the snacks? Like, what are we eating? The highlights, the rivalries, the breakout stars, the moments that take over your entire timeline. And the conversations that start during the game and somehow keep going all week. Every week, we're breaking down the biggest stories across women's sports. Naomi Osaka showing out. She beat Sabalenka. Shout out to you, Naomi. You get the palm, Naomi. You get the palm for that. Because we're not just interested in what happened, we're interested in why everyone's talking about it. Because everyone watches women's sports.

45:28Listen to Everyone Watches Women's Sports on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

45:39Saagar Enjeti:uh well um on that note let's get to some other ways this system is working or not working we have our friend our breaking points extended universe character rfk jr here who is um he's a big fan of mine i think in particular he is he's listen family family fights you know but we we love we show up on the holidays for each other um so lots of clips here from this rfk jr hearing where can anyone give a brief primer on this hearing and what RFK Jr.'s kind of new initiative around vaccines is?

46:14Emily Jashinsky:So this is the Senate Finance Committee, and he got a pretty tough grilling from both Republicans and Democrats, Bernie Sanders, Ron Wyden, Maggie Hassan. These guys just really went in on him. And so we have we have some of the highlights of those interactions. And this is Tina Smith of Minnesota. Let's start with this one. Yeah. Even if it's untrue. So last time you were before Congress, Secretary Kennedy, you claimed and I quote, I have never been anti-vax. I have never told the public to avoid a vaccination. But in a podcast, you said the opposite. You said there's no vaccine that is safe and effective.

46:52So that sure sounds anti-vax to me, Secretary Kennedy. So let me ask you, when were you lying, sir? When you told this committee that you were not anti-vax, when you told Americans that there's no safe and effective vaccine. Both things are true. Oh, so more denial, more back and forth. I mean, here's what I know. Here's what I know. Let me explain why, Senator. No, actually, I want you to listen to me.

47:17Saagar Enjeti:Okay, go ahead. Even if it's untrue. So we've got that one here.

47:24Emily Jashinsky:Yeah, let's roll through these scripts so people get a flavor.

47:26Saagar Enjeti:Yeah, let me get a flavor. So this next one, very interesting, we'll have a lot to talk about, is about Operation Warp Speed. And if President Trump deserves the Nobel Prize for this operation, let's take a look.

47:43Emily Jashinsky:This is Republican Bill Cassidy. This says, a doctor, not as a senator. I am concerned about children's health, seniors' health, all of our health. I applaud you for joining the president in a call for radical transparency. Thank you for that. I said yesterday, I believe it, that President Trump deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed. If he had been President Obama, he would have gotten it. But because of Operation Warp Speed, forcing the federal government to come to a vaccine development within 10 months when others said it couldn't be done, we saved millions of lives globally, trillions of dollars, we reopened economies, an incredible accomplishment.

48:22Mr. Secretary, do you agree with me that the president deserves a Nobel Prize for Operation Warp Speed? Absolutely, Senator. Let me ask you. But you just told Senator Bennett that the COVID vaccine killed more people than COVID. Wait, I did not say that. Okay, let me ask, because you also... Senator, I just want to make clear, I cannot say that. We'll check the record. That's a question of fact. You also said that you were also as lead attorney for the Children's Health Defense. You engaged in multiple lawsuits attempting to restrict access to the COVID vaccine. Again, it surprises me that you think so highly of Operation Warp Speed when as an attorney you attempted to restrict access.

49:11Saagar Enjeti:All right. So that's a devastating blow, I have to say. Warp Speed is good, but also bad.

49:16Ryan Grim:Yeah, let's talk a little bit about that one, because it makes sense that a Republican would be the one with the most devastating question in a way, because they would understand sort of the weaknesses and vulnerabilities from a Republican perspective. And this has always been such a central contradiction of, you know, Operation Warp Speed. It genuinely was. We covered it. This was back at Rising. We covered it very positively at the time. You know, it was one of the only examples I can think of in modern history post New Deal where you really did have the federal government sort of like all oars rowing this direction, doing what it took to get this vaccine together, get it rolled down.

49:50Ryan Grim:It was a genuinely impressive thing. And Trump himself was for a long time very proud of it. Now he's starting to back away himself from whether or not he put on some truth about, you know, I don't know if I got the right information at the time or something to that effect. And so Kennedy is trapped between, you know, slavish devotion to the dear leader and his anti-vax crankery in this question, which is what makes it so impossible. It, you know, it puts him in a logic chokehold, we'll say, the framing of this question. And I have no doubt that he did because he said similar things earlier in the hearing, say that the COVID vaccine has killed millions more than it ultimately saved.

50:30Ryan Grim:So you can't both think that Operation Warp Speed was glorious and dear leader deserves a Nobel Prize for it and that this thing was like a devastating scourge to humanity that killed millions of people.

50:40Emily Jashinsky:I thought that Kennedy got the better of Ron Wyden and Bernie Sanders in these hearings. But to your point, Crystal, Bill Cassidy is the reason that Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is HHS secretary, because he basically traded his vote for an agreement that RFK Jr. would submit to being babysat by Bill Cassidy, essentially, who's a doctor and sort of sees himself as a responsible Republican steward of public health. And for Cassidy to be, I mean, to actually really deliver that devastating blow is pretty fascinating this early, because again, And Cassidy wants, for his own sake, RFK Jr. to work out. He is the one who delivered him to HHS.

51:31Emily Jashinsky:Without his vote, he wouldn't be there.

51:33Ryan Grim:And what a fool, because, I mean, if you really were convinced that RFK Jr. was going to reform on the issue of vaccines or really care once he's in there, what you think, Senator Cassidy, about what the right course of action is. I don't think that he really believed that. I think he hoped it was true. But ultimately, he felt pressure to go along with who Trump wanted as his picks. And so he put his own political positioning because he knows how devastating it can be to go against Trump against his judgment as as a doctor. And so he put up a performative display of reluctance. But at the end of the day, just like everybody else, he went along in spite of his significant and genuine reservations.

52:16Emily Jashinsky:that's the vaccine stuff yeah i mean that was obvious because the point he's making there i mean he could have he could have made that point cassie could have made that point during the at that time that's right so and he was between a rock and a hard place obviously which is that i mean first of all he's from louisiana not a healthy state um and this is what rfk jr was telling um ron wyden yesterday they had an exchange where again i think kennedy kind of owned him from the political strategist perspective, where he was like, dude, you've been sitting in Congress since the mid-1990s, and all of these rates have continued to go up.

52:55Emily Jashinsky:Well, Bill Cassidy has been in Congress for a long time and is a representative of a very unhealthy state. So when we're not talking about vaccines, RFK Jr., I think, has a stronger argument. When you start talking about vaccines, this guy is on the record over and over again. And I'm talking about the politics of this, talking about how COVID killed, the COVID vaccine killed people in mass. That's impossible to square with Trump's position on operational warp speed. Impossible. And it looks like the exchange that Cassidy is referring to, he did not say outright the that the COVID vaccine killed more people than COVID.

53:41It's it sounds like Bennett said to him, are you aware? Are you aware that one of the new members and so the context for this entire thing is that Kennedy kicked a whole bunch of scientists off of the key committee that makes recommendations around vaccines as replacing them with what people think are cranks and quacks. And so one of these people is this guy, Dr. Retseth Levy, who is outspoken, unapologetic opponent of mRNA vaccines. And so he said, are you aware that one of these new members, Dr. Levy, wrote that, quote, evidence is mounting and indisputable that mRNA vaccines cause serious harm, including death, especially among young people.

54:21And Kennedy said, I wasn't aware of that. I agree with it. And so Cassidy took that. Now, there certainly have been to kill people who have been killed by mrna vaccine and badly hurt by it like that you can google that like that's that's true the idea that's more than number of people killed by covid i don't i don't even think levi levy um says that but and there's a battle going on here between

54:46Saagar Enjeti:who what scientists do you like or not we've got a clip here on that uh all over the country scientists doctors saying otherwise they're all wrong too let's take a listen politicization i depoliticized it the congress has been investigating over the country mr secretary scientists and doctors are saying otherwise they're all wrong too they're all lying according to you the scientists doctors are supporting the country oh there is division on opinion i don't get letters from thousands of people who are not political saying that this set of changes is going to damage American health care and particularly these health care agencies for decades to come.

55:29I don't get any letters saying this is going to make a big difference forever. Maybe you're listening to a selective group of people. You get me. I will tell you what, Senator. I will put my mailbag against your mailbag any day of the week.

55:46Ryan Grim:I don't really even know what that means. The mailbag. That was the old man stuff right there. Emily, I'll put my mailbag against your mailbag any day.

55:55Saagar Enjeti:The kids call it going bag for bag. So, you know, but yeah, they're saying, oh, well, he's got doctors and scientists. They say they're supporting him, but there is division of opinion.

56:10Ryan Grim:Yeah, well, and he actually he he says to widen like, oh, you're being selective. When in reality, RFK will find the like one person in the entire fucking country who has any kind of credential who agrees with him. and then be like, there's a division of opinion. And I just have him decide with this one guy who says this one like insane thing. And, but you know, both sides have a point. Let's debate it out. So he, you know, it's projection. Like he accuses Wyden of the precise thing that he does. And I just, I have zero patience for any of this. Maha, people, you were betrayed. You were fooled.

56:41Ryan Grim:It's the truth. And whatever you think about vaccines, like put that aside. I mean, first of all, you're insane to put it aside because it's been one of the greatest, most important inventions of modern medicine. and the defunding of the mRNA vaccine trials that they were, you know, the research they were doing means they were developing a potential mRNA vaccine for cancer and that's now off the table. Okay, so congratulations for that. Florida has now said there's no vaccine requirements for kids, so fucking congratulations for that. Put all of that aside, okay? This is the administration that cut healthcare that is going to deny millions of people healthcare.

57:14Ryan Grim:Is that Maha? This is the administration that is rolling back all of the regulations on food and health safety. Is that fucking ma-ha? Okay, we're talking about Louisiana. A big part of the, there are many reasons why Louisiana has chronic poor health. One of them is the fact that you've got a bunch of toxic chemical plants that are constantly polluting. And so you have Cancer Alley, something that RFK in another life might have cared about. Guess what? This administration is rolling back the regulations on those types of companies. So instead they run around and Sagar has done been the loudest voice on this like oh now we've got cane sugar and coke.

57:51Ryan Grim:Oh now your Froot Loops aren't gonna have the same dyes. Oh now you can eat your french fries with beef tallow. So it's to me I have zero use for any of this. I think it's all nonsense. And by the way like yes you're pointing to an important problem which is America is dramatically unhealthy. The fact that you aren't even talking about the fact that we have so like such a disgusting health care system for profit health care system tells me you're a fraud to begin with. And then second of all, he gets in there and is just making the problem worse, laying off anyone who was doing anything good and had potential for improvement in the future.

58:28Ryan Grim:So I'm just I am so disgusted with this man in particular and with all the lies and the circus that's built up around him. I just have no use for it whatsoever. There's also a huge opening here for anybody who wanted to take it because a lot of the Maha world actually completely agrees with you at this moment. And they're losing their mind. There's a segment that kind of from the 80s or 90s that bought into that woo-woo autism and vaccine stuff. But it's a vast, vast minority of what makes up Maha. Like the Maha people care about what you're talking about, the toxins, the chemicals, the plastics, the additives, the corruption of the food industry and the corruption of pharma.

59:20Vaccine fight, that's not what they're here for. Some of them are skeptical, definitely, of going overboard and being like, oh, giving the mRNA vaccine to five-year-olds? Like, no, we don't need to do that. You guys are being too crazy about that stuff. COVID overreach. Yeah. Okay, fine. But the Maha movement is not about getting rid of the MMR vaccine or otherwise just going to war with the vaccine. So I think if Democrats had their finger on the pulse of this, they could get in and be like, who's the one who's in the tank for pharma here? Like, that's the other funny thing. It's like, this big fight about the hepatitis vaccine.

1:00:02if you end up with hepatitis that's great for the healthcare industry you're now sick your entire life and you'll see morons out there being like oh because you're promoting this vaccine and women who are giving birth you're in the tank for the pharmaceutical industry it's like a$50 vaccine it's not the pharmaceutical industry is not desperately trying to sell that vaccine in fact if you get sick because you didn't take that vaccine, they benefit.

1:00:34Ryan Grim:That's right. So Democrats have all sorts of lanes where they could drive this.

1:00:38Saagar Enjeti:So Ryan, what do you make then of this polling then? If you say Maha's against this, we have new polling here from Harry Enten. It says RFK Jr. is actually the most popular member of Trump's admin. Let's take a listen.

1:00:50Ryan Grim:It's still minus seven. How long I've been saying Senator Kennedy could be the most embattled member of the cabinet. Fact check me here. No, I think that's a false. That's a false. That's a Daniel Dale fact check for you. False on that. What are we talking about here? Net favorable ratings of key Trump officials. Look at this. R.K. Jr. ain't exactly popular, but he's the most popular of all the key officials that we have recently. Yeah. I mean, we even pause this. I mean, these guys like those other I also would support, honestly, putting R.F.K. Jr. And like that pecking order because the other ones are all like starting wars and invading american cities and you know threatening to invade venezuela right now so okay fair i'm doing genocides so okay fair enough rfk jr is not currently committing a genocide so i'll give him his minus seven um i mean i don't know where like i have seen some of the maha upset for sure and feeling like they got sold a bill of goods and i do think that that sentiment exists and i also think it to your point ryan like it is important for democrats to pick up on uh yes This sense in the population of both, you know, with with big pharma and the, you know, the toxins and and just the sense of you can see how many Americans are are unhealthy, you know, and and dramatically.

1:02:08Ryan Grim:So, I mean, the truth of the matter is, though, like probably the the biggest innovation is like Ozempic, which apparently has all sorts of benefits for people and is a solution for obesity is a very like non Maha solution. But, you know, an Ozempic for all as part of Medicare for all, I think would go a long way, honestly, to making America a lot healthier. That's the sad truth of the matter. And then there should be, you know, in my opinion, we need a like a genuine renewal of public facilities where people can, you know, have community and play sports and a major investment in that and making that a big part of our sort of like public pride and public presence.

1:02:49Ryan Grim:and you know that's another thing that Democrats could potentially pursue I will say I have some sympathy for them because remember the way Michelle Obama was treated when she tried to like make the school lunches more healthy they acted I was pissed about that because I was in

1:03:00Emily Jashinsky:high school and they took away the vending machines yeah they acted like this was like

1:03:04Ryan Grim:you know like Pearl Harbor or something you know it was like totally insane so I kind of understand lunch yeah I sort of understand why they're a little reticent on that front but it's time to

1:03:15Emily Jashinsky:get back in the game guys well yeah so i just i actually think that's a really really really important point because bernie has bernie is so viscerally i think with you crystal on the maha like fraud line that he cannot stand the sight of rfk jr basically yeah and i relate to that probably probably true of yeah probably true of many people but i also think that i mean bernie and RFK Jr. have been on the same page until RFK Jr.'s Trump turn for years. Like to your point about Cancer Alley in Louisiana, RFK Jr. suing to clean up the Hudson River. Like this was his thing. And I think it's really dangerous for Dems to look like they're on the side.

1:03:59Emily Jashinsky:I think Ron Wyden came across like he was on the side of the public health status quo, or at least seeded that the anti-establishment ground to RFK Jr. because I just don't think Dems have fully developed their response to Maha yet, which is brought actual like you see it if you go to like Maha events. I've covered a couple of them. It's the hippie to Maha pipeline. Like it really is a lot of people from the left who won't vote Republican in the future. Like this is to some extent the grassroots. There are some like grassroots, like hippie Bernie types who are running in these circles because they think they look around and they're like, well, RFK Jr.

1:04:36Emily Jashinsky:might be bananas, but Dems are defending the status quo. And that looks bad. But RFK Jr., another thing is, he's getting criticized by the hardcore Maha people who are flaming him right now for not banning the COVID vaccine because it's committing mass mRNA genocide. I mean, it's just, Maha's a mess. Yeah.

1:05:00Saagar Enjeti:And some of it seems to be sticking. I mean, we've got another poll here. Emily, you shared this one. Support for vaccinating kids is dropping. Let's take a listen. that we have seen. Okay, that's kids against infectious diseases. The government should require it. You go back to 1991, it was 81%. Okay, then we go to 2019. It's 62%. Look at where that number fell to by 2024. It was just 51. That is 30 point drop from 34 years ago. My goodness gracious. So what do we make of that? Do you think people are when they are responding to this question, do you think they're thinking of just specifically the COVID vaccine or are they thinking about polio?

1:05:38Saagar Enjeti:Are they thinking about these other ones that these classic back to school vaccines?

1:05:43Ryan Grim:I think they're thinking about all of them. And I think personally, I think it's a sign of like societal and moral collapse. We're we're such a we have been fed such a line of individualism over so many years that people think their individual right to be an anti-vax crank Trump's the right of a community to keep itself safe and protect children or those who are immunocompromised or the elderly or pregnant women or others who are unable to get certain vaccines at certain times. And so I genuinely like I don't want to over blow, but I really do feel this way. I think it is a sign of societal collapse that we give so little of a shit about our fellow human beings that we are willing to put, you know, some bullshit we read on the internet over our ability to keep people who are vulnerable safe.

1:06:31Ryan Grim:Like we, we are losing the ability to even see our fellow community members as human beings who deserve the slightest bit of courtesy and attention. And to me, it truly is this like dead end of a intensely individualistic capitalist project where it's just all about you and your rights and your individual freedoms while you're of course being crushed from above. And that's like, that's what you're being sold in lieu of being able to have a good job, a good life, buy a house, et cetera.

1:07:03Saagar Enjeti:But is it individual or is it a systemic issue where, you know, how many of these people are seeing a primary care physician often? How many of these people feel like they have access to a doctor they like or trust or feel like isn't ripping them off?

1:07:16Ryan Grim:It feels like, yeah, I mean, it's not, you're not saying anything different from me though, really, because what you're talking about is the fact that we have, I mean, the fact that we don't have a universal health care system is exactly part of the overall systemic push towards the individual of like, it's your responsibility to make sure you can pay thousands of fucking dollars a month to get your health insurance. That's still going to be crappy and still going to fail you when you need it the most. So that's that exactly what you're describing is part of the system that, yes, leads people to, frankly, insane conclusions.

1:07:49Saagar Enjeti:about and if you do it's like do your own research stuff like it well if you do get sick and you're a poor person that you didn't do your research that was kind of your individual responsibility to figure it out on your own and you know us rich people will be fine but like yeah if if polio spreads you didn't you didn't read the blog or whatever i think this gets to the crystal's point

1:08:08Emily Jashinsky:about societal collapse i don't disagree with that at all because the trust institutions is just rock bottom i mean it is so incredibly low that people aren't going to trust i don't think people trust RFK Jr., to your point about having the highest rating but still being down minus seven, there's just a niche of the country who trusts him. There's a niche of the country who's trusting New York Times, a niche of the country who doesn't trust any of it, or a fractured segment of the country. And so everyone's floating in different pieces now. Nobody trusts anyone. So collective action becomes almost impossible, even though the paradox is it's also necessary to be part of a country.

1:08:47Ryan Grim:Yeah, no, that's it. You said it much more gently than I did, but I agree with all of that, Emily. Yeah, I mean, I'm just, I don't know, I'm very, this will be a good trade. We can transition to the premium show. We can talk about Zoran, which is to me like the glimmer of hope of people like once again, putting their faith in some sort of a collective project. And the fact that it's possible in New York City, where, you know, famous for a lot of jaded people and with a lot of groups that had have either checked out of the political system or you know were voting for trump or you know exploring other ideologies to me even though i know it's just quote unquote new york city but it does show that there is a possibility of a restoration of a collective

1:09:33Saagar Enjeti:project in my opinion and uh so yeah we'll be doing that and more uh a better world is possible in the premium paywall half of the show today. That's right, Graf. Revolutionary hope lies out.

1:09:45Emily Jashinsky:Pay your way to a better world. That's right.

1:09:47Saagar Enjeti:And folks, that's going to be a...

1:09:49Emily Jashinsky:It's very Scientologist.

1:09:49Saagar Enjeti:Right, that's right. You can go clear in the second half with us. That's going to be breakingpoints.com. You can sign up. We've got a nice monthly membership where you can submit AMA questions for us throughout the week. And we're going to get to a lot of other stories like the free press and more. We'll see you there on the second half. So if people watch this on YouTube, And then they go to sign up. How do they find the second half? Where does it live? So it'll be on Locals. But anyone who signs up for Breaking Points, you get an email in your inbox with the YouTube link. There's also instructions there to connect it to Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you choose to watch it.

1:10:29Would they still get the email? They're watching this on Friday afternoon.

1:10:34Saagar Enjeti:Right. So it'll be the first post once they have signed up on Locals. And then from then on out, they'll get an email inbox alert. Got it. Good. It's all. It's it's it's good questions. I was trying to figure out how to get the second half. I want the second half. It's my it's my favorite. I love I love the tech questions. It's the best part of this job. All right, folks, we'll see you there.

1:10:57Ryan Grim:Shortly after I enrolled at Rasmussen, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. It was like a bomb had just been dropped in my life. I reached out to Rasmussen. They immediately were like, Rosa, take what time you need. You can come back when you're ready. We are cancer-free today, and I'm just so grateful for Rasmussen for all of their support throughout my journey and for my own village. Rasmussen University. Find your seat and start now at rasmussen.edu. Hey, Portlandia fans. Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here. The dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form. We're launching Podlandia, A.O. Rewatch, our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together, breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters and pulling back the curtain on how it all got made.

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