E-Commerce Month: Creator & Affiliate Space with Ikon Digital Founder Mike Barron

0:00John Busby:We're doing a series of episodes on e-commerce, and this episode covers the affiliate and creator space with the founder of Icon Digital, Mike Barron. If you have a product sold direct on your website or through a marketplace like Amazon, it is essential that you have people and companies recommending your product. Those are journalists, creators, content publishers, Facebook groups, private groups, email newsletters, you name it. Mike and I talk about that. And then also given Mike's background in sales, I asked him about going from sales leader to CEO founder and how to do that.

0:40John Busby:Hey, Mike, how are you? Good to see you. John, great to see you. Thanks for having me. Thanks for being on. We're going to talk today about e-commerce, direct-to-consumer, Amazon, the world of product and product sales these days. To orient the audience, Mike, can you talk a little bit about your company, what you do, and who some of your clients are? Sure, sure. Icon Digital Media, founded about three years ago. We're a full-service affiliate marketing agency. So we have two segments of our business. We have direct-to-consumer, where we work with traditional D2C brands that sell products or services direct-to-consumer on their website.

1:17And then we work with Amazon brands. So Amazon brands, you know, that's, I'd say, a larger segment of our business now. It's something that we're incredibly bullish on. But, yeah, in simple terms, the only thing we do is affiliate marketing for D2C or Amazon brands. Client-wise, you know, we're pretty diverse in terms of, like, the verticals that we service or types of clients that we manage. We have clients like True Classic and Brio and Renfo and Earth Rated. We also have a lot of roots in outdoor recreation, sports and fitness on the D2C side. Amazon side, again, it's pretty darn diverse from health and wellness, nutritional supplements to home and living, clothing and apparel.

1:58Consumer electronics is really big for us. But, you know, we're pretty select with the brands we partner with, but we look for great, great long term partnerships.

2:08John Busby:So I wanted to find something for the audience because it may be different than what they're thinking. So when you say an Amazon brand, I don't think you mean a brand with an Amazon label. It's not it's not actually owned by Amazon. Am I right? You are correct. An Amazon brand or what we call a seller is someone that sells their products or their brand on Amazon, not owned by Amazon. Amazon is their primary sales channel strategy. Is that fair to say when you're talking about an Amazon brand? I think so. Yeah. I mean, you know, we have a decent population of our clients that are what we call dual channel.

2:49So where we manage their D2C affiliate channel and Amazon affiliate channel allows us to be incredibly effective with how we approach recruitment and optimization for, you know, with creators and affiliates and publishers and editorial sites. But in that regard, some of our clients are equally as large on D2C and Amazon. But I would still classify them, if we only manage their Amazon affiliate channel, I'd still say Amazon brand or Amazon seller. So I don't know if they necessarily have to be larger on Amazon, but that's kind of the terminology that we've always used.

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4:02John Busby:Check it out at business.com slash plus. That's business.com slash P-L-U-S. When brands or products are being launched, do you find them today, like, starting with how they're going to market it and what channel? or starting with the product, where are you coming in and advising them and starting to help them achieve more sales? That's a great question. For us, I mean, what we've learned over the years, we're kind of a pioneer in the Amazon affiliate channel. What we've learned is that, you know, for us to drive meaningful performance for an Amazon brand in the affiliate creator channel, they have to be to a certain size, right?

4:47You know, if I chat with a brand and they're, you know, doing a couple million dollars a year on Amazon. That's too small for us. But I give them guidance and I say, you know, we really want you to kind of you guys to be at this size. We recommend having, you know, these channels built out and kind of functioning to maximum potential and then tacking on the affiliate channel, tacking on our services. You know, I think that there's a couple variables that are really important and powerful in our world that we look at before feeling like we're we can confidently say that we can join forces and grow a brand in the amazon channel number one is product category the brand has to sell products that creators and affiliates will want to promote you know for example in the past we've worked with brands that make barbecues connectors although they do 250 million dollars a year on amazon an affiliate isn't necessarily going to be excited to promote a barbecues connector right like they're not going to be able to create UGC or any of that stuff.

5:50So product category vertical, pretty darn important for us. Also review counts and ratings. So when we're kind of in an intro discovery phase with a potential new client, we're going to look very closely at the review counts and ratings. If review counts and ratings are not high enough, then creators are also probably not going to be is excited to promote that specific ACE in our product, right? You really want to put yourself in the creator or affiliates' shoes. They're here to make money. They want to promote brands, products, ACEs that actually convert where they can earn a commission on.

6:27John Busby:They're also, you know, editors and brands and they want to stand behind what they're promoting as well. You know, I actually thought you might be going a different direction when you're talking about review counts. I wasn't necessarily thinking about the creator point of view. I was thinking about when the consumer goes to the product, you know, because, you know, I think whether we're shopping for a hotel on Expedia or Travelocity or whatever, we're first doing the check of, you know, who's maybe recommending this, what creator is recommending it. And then you're going and saying, what's, you know, is this a four star out of five?

7:07John Busby:Is it five star out of five? Do people you know do people like it i read the first two or three reviews are they positive or the negative so um yeah i think i think there's a creator angle too but probably also it's consumer angle 100 but and that ties directly to the creator angle right because creators they are fully aware that if they promote an asin or i'll say product for purposes of the audience like asin amazon term right but the skew or product uh that doesn't have high ratings or review counts consumers are probably not going to purchase that product. So the creator isn't going to earn the commission.

7:43Right. So I think it's like a full kind of full site, full circle there.

7:48John Busby:Yeah. Also, in fact, if someone was interested in the type of product and they go there, Amazon so good at showing alternatives on the side, they might, you might end up funding your competitor, like a strange, strange turnabout. I guess if a brand is thinking about entering this space, they don't have a specific creator strategy yet or a creator affiliate strategy, or they've sort of dabbled in it. They've tried to DIY it. How should someone think about an effective creator strategy in the creator ecosystem? I mean, things I've heard are like, it's great, but it's a lot of work. And I need like hundreds of these folks added together.

8:32John Busby:So maybe give us like a creator one-on-one from the perspective of a brand. You know, I think to your point, a lot of brands have dabbled. They've tried it or they, you know, dipped their toe in the water and maybe didn't have the, I don't want to say best experience, just didn't see a lot of traction, a lot of sales and revenue. And so they kind of, you know, when that happens, brands tend to put it on the back burner or forget about it for a period of time. So it's pretty common. But, you know, I think some brands approach the affiliate creator channel with a perception. And I'll speak specifically to Amazon, like with a perception that creators are influencers.

9:13Right. That's what I'm trying to. That's who I'm trying to work with. I want a lot of influencers to generate UGC and drive traffic and promote me on Instagram and TikTok. And that's definitely like a piece of what we do or a piece of the channel, but it's a very small piece. OK. And so I would really encourage brands to to to have an open mind and take a diversified approach. when they think about the types of traffic sources, how you define a creator, publishers and media partners, and being very open to working with all types of affiliates and creators, because it's far beyond influencer. Some of the most meaningful performance and traction that we're seeing right now on the channel is coming very upstream.

10:02OK, so in the discovery phase for consumers, their purchase training, content editorial media. So we're doing a lot of performance PR to we're reaching out to writers, editors at GQ and BuzzFeed and Better Homes and Garden and, you know, opening up lines of communication with those people doing product seeding and securing organic coverage. Right. We're also working very heavily with what we call media buyers, you know, paid search partners in the Amazon affiliate ecosystem that drive tremendous traffic and sales, massive revenue. You have closed user groups, you have social partners, you have Facebook groups.

10:41You know, it's it's it's really important that a brand is pretty expansive when they're entering the channel and kind of targeting the different partner types.

10:51John Busby:And what's sort of the strategic reason for it? I think I might know, but let me toss it out. Like, one, is this an end around to get LOM citations? Two, is it the fact that for each brand, you don't exactly know what is going to work, so you need to do a significant amount of experimentation? or is it a recognition that for most customers, it's going to be a unique maze through those different things? And you can't, consumer journey is not linear. And if you do one, you're definitely missing out. You know, I think that we like to say that, and again, we're niche, we're affiliate creator only, but in our world, it's turning into much more of what we call an ecosystem.

11:38And so our goal is to touch or make an impact at every intersection of where a creator or affiliate might touch the consumer through their purchase or shopping.

11:51John Busby:Right. And the beautiful thing for us right now is, is that all the different types of affiliates and creators and traffic sources, it's like almost one large, you know, cycle, if you will, where, you know, the reason that we do performance PR, the reason that we reach out to writers and editors for organic coverage with large media partners is because those are the sources that the LLMs are referencing when they're giving product recommendations. So we know that for our clients, by utilizing performance PR and securing organic coverage, we're also impacting their visibility, which is absolutely a metric that we report on and we focus on.

12:33And so it's definitely a lot of that. And we see that just as like a trend, a very powerful trend that's, in my opinion, not going to stop.

12:43John Busby:maybe we don't need to rebrand the term, but you've used the term affiliate several times. But when I think about performance PR, PR in general, or some of the other things that you're talking about, it's part of a holistic brand strategy. And maybe perhaps the unit economics are like a commission or conversion rate, but it certainly seems like what you're doing is more than transactional. It is. And it has to be, it has to be right. And so for us to really, you know, perform the best service possible, we need to make sure that we are managing every single piece of the affiliate ecosystem. And, and what's happened like specifically with PR, for example, traditional PR respectfully, that old school PR approach is a thing of the past.

13:40everything is being monetized through affiliate links and platforms and every single article that you read and product you click on and recommendation and review it's all being tracked and monetized through affiliate right so for us it's kind of like we have the wind at our back so many more things are coming into the performance or affiliate marketing channels that we can directly impact so

14:03John Busby:we love it one of the challenges with as you're calling it sort of traditional pr maybe when i started my career is really is you knew top of the funnel stuff drove some discovery phase, you call it, like drove some sales. You knew it did, but it was impossible. It was impossible to qualify. And you're right. As like the newspaper and magazine and digital magazine industries have been disrupted. They've moved to these ways almost as a way of helping us understand what our PR and advertising budgets are going towards. I want to ask about diversity of creators because I was thinking about how my wife and I both landed on the same protein powder.

14:53John Busby:I was influenced by an NFL quarterback. I'm certain that's not how my wife made the decision to buy the same protein. So you're talking a little bit about all these different places. Can you talk about why that's important for a single brand to go in all these directions? Yeah, I think your point says it all, right? Each consumer kind of has a different way that they begin their online shopping experience. You have different types of influencers or creators that you might follow, more importantly, trust. You know, some consumers begin on the LLMs for product recommendations, others don't. Some really like to shop via TikTok or social partners and others don't.

15:46So I think by diversifying and making sure that you are, you know, working with as many traffic sources, affiliates, creators, editorial sites that you can, And it gives you the best chance to get in front of your target audience to get the most eyes on your product.

16:04John Busby:Nice. Well, well, congrats on the growth of Icon. I want to talk a little bit about your about your career, if you don't mind. So you scaled a previous company called Advertise Purple, I think, before founding Icon. What was the itch for you to tell you to, you know, go to start your own own company? It was just time. It was time. It was probably not the most ideal time. I had one child, one on the way. I had every reason not to venture out on my own. Yeah, what were you thinking, man? But I will say that I think that things like that can be massive motivators for people, really effective motivators.

16:49And for me, it was it just felt like the time I needed to do it. I wanted to do it. I felt like I could do it better. And I wanted to do it for myself. Right. Like that's the I'd say the biggest reason I stepped out on my own. I was incredibly confident because of my background, my you know, my previous company. I was incredibly confident in my ability to to acquire new clients. Right. And I think for any business to succeed, doesn't matter if you sell, you know, shoes, or you're a SaaS company or you're a marketing agency, you have to know how, you have to have a new client acquisition engine, right?

17:28And so for me, when I ventured out on my own, I was really confident that I could acquire new clients. I knew how to prospect. I knew how to build sequencing and cadences and all of those things. And so I was successful in acquiring new clients pretty darn quickly. The uncertain area, the uncertainty that I had was, could I execute the service, right? Like I can sell the service. Can I actually, you know, service?

17:55John Busby:So it's really, it's really interesting. Cause I think one of the most recent interviews, um, I did, or one of the most recent episodes is, um, the guy who's reshaping the nuclear industry and his backgrounds, his backgrounds engineering. And so, you know, he had sort of the, he sort of knew what to build and, and, and, you know, maybe sales wasn't, sales is something that, that he, he, he had to do, you know, I'm curious what caught for, for people here who are in sales and people listening who are in sales, how, how do you, how do you sort of knew that you had arrived, you know, cause part of it was, can you sell, but I think you were also, also scaling a sales organization and you know that you probably can't, can't personally sell every client at Icon.

18:42John Busby:Maybe you can at first, but you have to have others do it for you. Maybe could you talk about your rise in confidence as a sales leader and some of the steps you took along the way to get there? Probably be easier to reference my previous goal, right? Yeah, totally. Okay. So, gosh. So the rise as a sales leader, I think that number one for a sales leader, that the most simple way I can put it is lead from the front. I think that the reason that I've always been a really great sales leader and been able to scale teams and build a department that's incredibly effective in closing new business is because I know how to do every single job within the department.

19:28I've been there. I've done that. I've been on the front lines, sales operations, cold calling, email sequencing, CRM, optimization, you name it. I've done it and I've mastered it. And so as you scale a sales organization and you hire people, I think that's really important. You're able to know how to do their job so you can train them effectively, but also you can relate to them. You understand their challenges, you understand their successes, and you can work very closely with each person or each department because you've actually been there and done it yourself. I think accountability as a sales leader is incredibly important, having effective accountability measures, but also making sure that your salespeople understand the expectations and that they can keep themselves accountable because they know what the expectations are.

20:21They can keep you accountable. And, you know, of course, you can keep them accountable to hitting their targets as a performance-based role. Culture, I think, you know, is something that's always been a strength of mine and allowed me to to build really strong departments and sales teams is because culture is like the backbone of, of, of any sales organization, making sure that you have, you know, people enjoy being there. People enjoy working hard. They're committed. Um, you know, you have a level of trust and rapport. You spend time getting to know each person, hearing their concerns and listening,

20:55John Busby:um, and, and make sure they know you have, you know, that you have their back that'll pay off, you know, 10x in their level of like work and dedication and performance? I love every facet of that answer. I'm not in sales, but one of the most, one of the things that I have done is, you know, gone door to door to try to sell stuff. And for a brief time, worked at a call center doing outbound calls real early in my career. And maybe for the audience who might think like they don't ever want to do that or it's beneath them or whatever, maybe could you talk about why having that skill and experience is so freaking important?

21:40Gosh, yeah. I mean, it goes back to what I said earlier. I think that, you know, it's great that you started in door to door. I love when I find salespeople that started door to door, pounding the pavement, as I call it, because it builds thick skin. You get you get rejected. You get doors slammed in your face. You get, you know, all sorts of no's. But it really teaches you to, you know, to to persevere and persist. And, you know, when you get that one yes and that win, it's like makes your makes your day. So I forgot the question.

22:14John Busby:Why is why is cold calling so important? you know i think that just that that's having the experience of the skill or the like the willingness to like pick up the phone and call a stranger or to knock on a stranger's door uh it really like i said it builds you know it builds tenacity within someone and sales overall i think that sales you know can apply to almost any role or position in any company um and is And again, like I said earlier, it's so incredibly important if you ever want to start your own company or if you're an entrepreneur to to know how to sell, right, to acquire new clients. Without that, you're probably not going to be successful.

22:59John Busby:And you just need the reps, too. I mean, you just you just have got to have got to have the reps because because because you do it so wrong, you know, all the time at the beginning. You've got to be got to be trained, etc. I mean, I tell my sales team now, I'm like, make mistakes, say the wrong thing, lose clients. Like, I don't care. Learn from every mistake you make, right? Get more reps, get more at bats. It'll make you stronger and better in the long run. And, you know, that's what it's all about. Well, Mike, thanks for joining me today. And thanks for, and good luck on Icon. I know it's growing like crazy.

23:36John Busby:Thank you. I appreciate it. Yeah, happy to, I'm honored to be here, John. Thanks for having me. Thanks.

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